From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Dec 31 08:00:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12817 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 08:00:57 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id HAA26351 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 07:47:36 -0600 Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 07:47:36 -0600 Message-Id: <199812311347.HAA26351@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1073 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, December 31 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1073 In this digest: Re: IN> INRI IN> A new IN PBEM game... IN> Baphomet und Templars RE: IN> INRI Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might be then.) Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might Re: IN> Campaign themes Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might Re: IN> Saints and bod_s Re: R: IN> Campaign themes IN> 'Nother Unofficial IN-page... Re: IN> 'Nother Unofficial IN-page... Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 18:11:08 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> INRI At 6:05 PM +0100 12/28/98, A.Brimmer wrote: >Simple and Straightforward. > >Who was Jesus Christ?? > > >It would be interestign to say that he was a son of a grigori, and later >founded the Priory of Sion (Read Holy Blood Holy Grail a book that >questions the reality of the bible). > >Brimmer (New to In Nomine, New to the list) Here's a rough sketch of the nature of Jesus Christ as I'm probably going to implement it in my campaign... I'm leaning towards making Yeshua a Saint, who had been working with an Elohite of Destiny (Judas Iscariot). His first time around, he wasn't really anybody of historic note, and really hadn't planned to the second time, either. A lot of the more blatant miracles are exaggerated significantly (Such as the feeding of the five thousand/ four thousand) or didn't happen at all (Lazarus rising from the dead.) He was crucified, died, and buried, came out of Trauma rather quickly, and got a new Vessel. The Elohite puts the guards to sleep, and later, distracts the women while Yeshua is moving the body. He made a few more appearances before Ascending in front of the apostles. About this time, the Divine Inquisition caught up with them, and there's a brief trial. The Saint gets pulled off earth Duty, and Judas gets reassigned to some Pre-Columbian Mesoamerican culture, and vanishes. Yves takes Yeshua aside and has a talk with him. Shortly thereafter, Yeshua ascends to the Higher Heavens, and doesn't come back. And that, by all rights, should have been that. But /someone/ made the twelve Apostles Soldiers of God fifty days after the resurrection. Even so, the nascent religion of Christianity remains mostly a splinter cult of Judaism in the eyes of Heaven until it attracts the attention of Uriel a century or so later... ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Xander, Djinn Baron of Drugs, the Demon of Tranquilizers. nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 12:34:14 CST From: Michael Nutt Subject: IN> A new IN PBEM game... I'm going to be starting a new IN PBEM after the first of the year. I'm looking for 2-4 players with some familiarity with the rules and with the PBEM format, although vast experience is not required. The game will be set in Memphis, TN, and environs. It's my hometown, and I know it pretty well. Area Tethers will be *mostly* Infernal, but not entirely. The plot will revolve around an investigation into humans possessing what *seem* to be infernal artifacts -- but they have no connection to Vapula that can be found. If we go off in other directions, hopefully everyone will enjoy the ride. Mood-wise, I'm looking for a cross between "The Prophecy" and some of the less-dark episodes of "The X-Files". I plan to have the "Brightness" setting turned down to somewhere around 4 and the "Contrast" knob turned up to almost 8. Angels will certainly have their darker sides... but they will indeed be the Good Guys. Demons... well, they live in Hell for a *reason*. They're not *losing* the War, though... For players, I want people who will be able to post on a regular basis. I understand about Real Life getting in the way -- hey, I'm getting *married* in a few months. Still, I must insist on players posting 2-3 times per week unless previously arranged.. I want active roleplayers, although I don't want to spend weeks and weeks just engaging in snappy patter with no action. Combat will be an occasional feature, but not a primary one -- munchkins, consider yourselves warned. No actively demonic characters will be considered. Renegades are possible, but I want a primarily angelic focus for the group. Since I'm looking for a mostly corporeal game, please don't submit Servitors of Dreams. Kyriotates are also very difficult to handle in this format, but I'm willing to consider them. I would like to see characters built on 45 points, rather than the standard 36. If you want a Servant, give me a general description ("Wisecracking female private investigator", "Male doctor with computer skills", "Familiar with a cat-Vessel"), as well as the Class and Level, and *I* will create them -- these are NPCs, after all. I've got a copy of the Liber Reliquarum, and GM approval is required for *all* artifacts beforehand. Only Superiors listed in canon material will be allowed. I've also got a copy of the Liber Canticorum, and it's got some amazingly cool stuff. Feel free to request any "non-feather" or non-Secret Songs, but I reserve, as always, the Rule Of No. I'm hoping to spend the next two or three weeks on character selection and creation, and getting "before-game" stuff taken care of. I'd like to be up and running by January 15th. Looking forward to some great submissions, and a good game! Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 19:55:46 +0100 From: "Peter Wiggin" Subject: IN> Baphomet und Templars I am developing an adventure in which a group of investigating angels tries to find out the mistery of the templars and the idol known as Baphomet. I'd like some good idea. [Peter] "Cu" [Wiggin], Archangel of the Celts ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:08:08 -0500 From: "Matthew Stein" Subject: RE: IN> INRI I tend to take the position (and I do this, in my campaign) that the only person with a clue is Lawrence, and even he's not sure and he most certainly isn't telling (which suggests that JC wasn't quite what Christianity makes him out to be). Generally, angels who get too interested generally find themselves tracking down old myths and legends in the Far Marches; this isn't a punishment, but more their AA saying that "if you want to know, and we're kind of curious, go find this...." However, if I ever have to explain it, I take the position that JC was the Messiah, which in conventional Judaic belief (IIRC) is that the Messiah will be a human who does some cool stuff, but doesn't necessarily do magical phenomena so much as act as a really good speaker who rebuilds Solomon's Temple and reunites the Jews, etc., etc. Thus, when it comes out to the players, I just make it a story of human exaggeration of a human's acts (before I get the normal responses for a touchy area, I do the same for all the monotheistic religions; it's safer). Cheers. - ---===--- One of the prerogatives of American citizenship is the right to criticize public men and measures - and that means not only informed and responsible criticism but the freedom to speak foolishly and without moderation. - -- Mr. Justice Frankfurter - -----Original Message----- From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of Greg Jensen Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 12:10 AM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> INRI At 05:29 PM 12/28/98 -0800, you wrote: >At 06:05 PM 12/28/98 +0100, you wrote: >>Simple and Straightforward. >> >>Who was Jesus Christ?? Some possibilities: God Son of God Celestial pulling everyone's leg Saint Wise teacher with followers who exaggerate a lot. Fictional character I doubt you'll find the answer for sure here. Greg Jensen http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gjensen/gregpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 14:57 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might be then.) >I can't be sure what APG says but I assume it's much the same beacause >they're pretty identical (not a jibe, it's actually useful). Actually they don't always track that well -- the section you are quoting was written from scratch for the IPG, because the similar section in the APG wasn't clear enough on some things. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 15:01 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might > Okay, here's what I'm getting at. I know they keep attunements and >lose rites. But they don't really Serve The Word anymore, do they? It's >speculated, for example, that if Uriel were really dead, the Tsayadim or >maybe even the Malakim could Fall. This would be because Uriel Word would >no longer protect them. > > So if you don't really Serve The Word after the Superior takes a dirtnap, >would you lose your bonus with this song? According to Elizabeth (who is downstairs as I type this), the bonus is linked with the dissonance condition -- whichever Superior's dissonance condition you follow is the one that you get the bonus for. So if you're only "in service to", you keep your bonus. If you truly switch Superiors, taking on the new Superior's dissonance condition, and losing your old one, then you would no longer get the bonus for the old Superior -- you're no longer that strongly tied to his Word. (I think - -- Elizabeth may have further comments....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 15:25 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Campaign themes >I wanted to ask the list members about their own IN campaigns, and what >themes are presented. I mean, there are some interesting philosophical >issues that IN seems to center on, and I wonder how much these are played >up. What about free will? What about the nature of good and evil? Is it >all relative? Is God really all good, even with Uriel and other similar >questionable actions? Is Hell all evil, depsite a few demons who don't >seem all that malicious? What are the answers in your campaign? I'm not sure I go as far as thinking about "themes" per se in my campaign, so my answer may be a little fuzzy.... My campaign is fairly close to canon, with the primary theme being, I suppose, "Exactly what *is* going on here...?" This encompasses all the canon-doubt-and-uncertainty issues like free will, the nature of God (i.e., is He *truly* good?), good and evil vs. selflessness and selfishness, etc. The characters are all angelic, except for a Renegade Lilim, and generally all "good" as well, though I have some few angels who aren't (by human standards, anyway). A major issue is the lack of certainty among celestials about answers to many questions, so they substitute some form of faith instead (even if only faith to their own natures). This leaves room for lots of viewpoints on the CDaU issues, and plenty of conflict there. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 15:36 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might > The Song of Ice, I think it was, Celestial version, gives a bonus to those >with the word of 'the Waters'. Isn't it the case, however, that the holder >of that word has passed on, snuffed it, ceased to be, is an ex-superior? >If I recall correctly, it raises an interesting issue. There are actually two answers to this -- there was some discussion about whether historical/dead/missing Superiors should get bonuses, and whether they should be based on Word or Superior name. There are three cases where these bonuses might apply: - in a historical game where the Superior is still around (or, for multiple Superiors with the same Word -- e.g., Gebbeleth and Alemon -- these bonuses will apply normally. (Yes, the writers and editors do think ahead sometimes....) - in a modern campaign, there still may be Servitors of the dead/missing Superior; this is especially likely for some Seneschals, as is outlined in the forthcoming Tether book (L. Castellorum), but may happen with others, with the acquiescence of the current Superiors (i.e., someone takes them in service, but doesn't bind them to their own Word, for reasons someone else outlined in an IPG quote). - a Servitor of the vanished Word might pop out of Limbo at any time > If your Superior is in a state where if they weren't nailed to their >throne, they'd be pushing up Symphonic daisies, you no longer count as a >Servitor of X, right? Actually, you do, for those game mechanics that look at what Word you're bound to. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 15:42 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Saints and bod_s >I have a question re Saints/bodhisattvas and their origins. Night Music >seems to contradict itself when comparing p14 and p44. Are the two seperate >entities? Saints are said to be given a vessel which they can buy up above >there CF and bod_s are continuely re-incarnated souls unaware of there >status until "awakened" after childhood. Do Saints have Vessels and bod_s >normal aging human bodies, or are they both the same? A reference on p10 in >Laurence's description refers to them as seperate entites... "Soldiers of >light, saints and the bodhisattva, as well as ordinary humans..." Yep, it's unclear. Unfortunately.... I believe the current canon thinking is that "Saint" is a label applied to bohdisattvas who are given vessels and return to Earth duty. The question on vessels vs. re-incarnation is still being thought about; there may indeed be two sub-types here. The details are yet to be worked out. >So far I have only the basic rulebook, GM screen and Night Music, so I >apoligize in advance if my question has been cleared up in a further supplement. Not so far, though there has been some interest among list members and the IN authors in a "Human Players' Guide" to match the APG and IPG. That would be a good place to settle all these issues once and for all in canon. It's not currently in production, though. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:28:09 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: R: IN> Campaign themes On Mon, Dec 28, 1998 at 11:54:01AM +0100, Peter Wiggin wrote: > >I wanted to ask the list members about their own IN campaigns, and what > >themes are presented. I mean, there are some interesting philosophical > >issues that IN seems to center on, and I wonder how much these are played > >up. What about free will? > In general, I assume free will as a starting point. I don't regard the ideas of good and evil as meaningful in the absence of free will. Likewise, I don't see a conflict between free will and determinism. Most of my answers will be from the point of view of characters of mine, because they've thought about this more than I have. This is not to say my characters believe in entirely free will. It should be noted that Carmine is a Habbalite of the War and Mithredath is a Seraph of the Wind. > >What about the nature of good and evil? Is it > >all relative? I think both Mithredath and Carmine would argue that good and evil are more to do with the intrinsic quality of the decision making than the act itself. The questions to ask are: does the person concerned think they did the right thing? Did the person concerned deceive themselves into thinking they did the right thing because it was convenient, pleasurable, etc? Did the person willfully blind themselves to other factors which would influence the decision (as opposed to making a decision quickly based on time constraints)? This is coincidentally close to my own way of thinking. Is God really all good, even with Uriel and other similar > >questionable actions? > Yes, according to Mithredath, who'd say that God isn't responsible for Uriel's actions. Carmine would tend to the view that God is beyond good and evil, and views right and wrong as being different from good and evil. Carmine tends to the view that if Archangels/Demon Princes weren't doing what God wanted to do, God would annihilate them (while delegating the annihilation of weaker beings to Superiors). > >Is Hell all evil, depsite a few demons who don't > >seem all that malicious? What are the answers in your campaign? > > Hell is evil... like Heaven is good, because what Hell does is "evil" by > definition, and so "evil" is not what we feel "evil", but simply what demons > do according to Hell's law. > Hell is arbitrary. In general it will do evil because that's the quickest and (apparently) most effective way to get power, and to hurt Heaven. But it's not intrinsically evil (according to Mithredath). It just tends to be. According to Carmine, Hell is a part of the natural order, and can be considered evil in the broad sense. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Warfare is the Tao of deception. Thus although capable, display incapability to them. When committed to employing your forces, feign inactivity. When [your objective] is nearby, make it appear as if distant; when far away, create the illusion of being nearby." -Sun Tzu, the Art of War. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:28:45 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> 'Nother Unofficial IN-page... In the grand tradition of 'IN NOMINE: Holy war' (okay, maybe not), I present my own take on IN NOMINE. http:/www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine The Brightness knob is broken, and the Contrast is the only thing I can turn down. Enjoy! - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph Marquis of Fate, Demon of Delusions of Granduer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:53:29 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> 'Nother Unofficial IN-page... > http:/www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine ^^^ http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine, is the correct URL. > cancled... But hey, nobodies perfect. Not even in Hell> ^^^^^^^ canceled. - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph Marquis of Fate in service to _Nitpicking_, Demon of Delusions of Granduer P.S. I hate Wednesdays... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 04:39:35 PST From: orionpirate@excite.com Subject: Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might On Wed, 30 Dec 98 15:01 EST, Walter Milliken wrote: > > So if you don't really Serve The Word after the Superior takes a dirtnap, > >would you lose your bonus with this song? > > According to Elizabeth (who is downstairs as I type this), the bonus is > linked with the dissonance condition -- whichever Superior's dissonance > condition you follow is the one that you get the bonus for. So if > you're only "in service to", you keep your bonus. If you truly switch > Superiors, taking on the new Superior's dissonance condition, and losing > your old one, then you would no longer get the bonus for the old > Superior -- you're no longer that strongly tied to his Word. (I think > -- Elizabeth may have further comments....) > > > ---Walter > This is Sean again, striking out from webmail this time. So if I serve Andre and tomorrow Uriel comes back and scatters his Forces so far across the Symphony only Yves can find any of them I am still considered of Lust, still have the dissonance conditions of Andre, etc? I must admit I didn't get this from the book, so if it's true I will be greatly thankful to have learned it. Sean _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:40:20 +0100 From: "Peter Wiggin" Subject: IN> Baphomet und Templars + INRI Well, I am in trouble. Reading some essays on the subject, I have started an adventure that my players like very much but I feel difficultu ro control. Too much connection between templars and faith, islam, jews, idolatry, even Graal and other reliquies. Very in trouble, in this situation I launce an accorate SOS: what could be in an IN setting the Baphomet? what could be the secrets of the templars? what about alchemic quest? templars had this secret? and, finally, what about sufi religion and Abufihamet? But, most of all: (and this give me a connection to "INRI" topics) templars, in their initiation rites, abjured christianity by saying that who died on the cross WAS NOT the son of God. Well, who was? They say that in that period in Palestine there where two preaching figures: one was Jesus, the other Bar Abbas, the older son of Josef and so the direct descendance of David (not the archangel, the king). Bar Abbas wanted the kingdom of judaei, while Jesus was an illuminated preacher. In Gospels the two figures are mixed and there are some points in where there are words of forgiving and illumination, other of vengeance. Believing Templars, Bar Abbas was condamned by Pontius Pilatus who sent him to crucifiction according to roman law for Bar Abbas attempt to overthrow roman domination of palestine, while it seems most improbable that a roman legatus as he was could "wash his hands" and condamn a person believing the accuse of jews. So, the real Jesus survived? Well, truely too much secrets... How i may deal with my players on this argument? If someone has already done a similar campaign, help me plz! [Peter] "Cu" [Wiggin], Archangel of the Celts ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1073 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.