From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Feb 10 21:43:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA07307 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:43:32 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA08387 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:19:34 -0600 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:19:34 -0600 Message-Id: <199802110319.VAA08387@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #619 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, February 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 619 In this digest: IN> Lilim and Reproduction IN> Re: IN- Lilim and Reproduction IN> IN played with the safety off Re: IN> IN played with the safety off Re: IN> Swipe Re: IN> Canon Doubt and Uncertainty Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilim and Reproduction IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilim and Reproduction Re: IN> IN played with the safety off IN> Origins [FLUFF] (fwd) Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) Re: IN> IN Safety's off, just don't shoot MY game... Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) Re: IN> Canon Doubt and Uncertainty Re: IN>PBEM Casting Call Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction IN> Re: IN- Canon Doubt and Uncertainty Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) Dark Victory (Re: IN> Canon Doubt and Uncertainty) Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) IN> The Structure of the Divine Inquisition ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:48:21 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lilim and Reproduction >>>He's the AA of Creation: Angelic Players Guide p.84 "Eli is the exception, of course - he would never refuse to help create new life."<<< I suspect that's another poorly-phrased line that's going to bite us in the a**, like the one in Night Music about humans becoming demons. I have trouble imagining a couple of Shedim of Lust approaching Eli and saying "Hey, we want to create a new demon, help us out why don'cha?" and Eli waving his hand and consenting. He might not refuse outright -- but he's certainly going to ask some questions and exert some control over the process. "Sure, I'll help you....oh, like, you know it'll be a Kyriotate, right? And, uh, I'll be taking care of him....you two just don't seem too maternal, y'know?" - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:08:55 PST From: "Andrew Frades" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Lilim and Reproduction David writes... >I suspect that's another poorly-phrased line that's going to bite us in the >a**, like the one in Night Music about humans becoming demons. > >I have trouble imagining a couple of Shedim of Lust approaching Eli and >saying "Hey, we want to create a new demon, help us out why don'cha?" and >Eli waving his hand and consenting. > >He might not refuse outright -- but he's certainly going to ask some >questions and exert some control over the process. "Sure, I'll help >you....oh, like, you know it'll be a Kyriotate, right? And, uh, I'll be >taking care of him....you two just don't seem too maternal, y'know?" Of course it will be a Kyriotate, that was never in question, but he won't say no. Andrew ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:09:35 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> IN played with the safety off >>>(I know I may be in a minority of 1 but I think Dominic is utterly cool)<<< Minority of 2 at least. - -David (I knew there's a reason I like you ;)) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:23:58 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> IN played with the safety off At 11:47 10/02/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Fine, and I certainly think Dominic can be gamed that way. Should >I ever, by some twist, be an IN GM, I would probably try to >"rehabilitate" him. But he needs the rehabilitation, at least from >the description in the IN book and the bits I've seen elsewhere. >You are invited to be scared of him, but you are not invited to respect >him. I take the view that Judgement represents the sort of quality of 'The mills of God grind slowly but they grind exceeding small.' So from the outside it may well look arbitrary, cruel, petty, biased or unjust but if anyone ever looks into it in detail what they'll find is that actually heavenly judgement is frighteningly, terrifyingly fair. So the closer you get to the actual process of judgement, the more confidence you can have in it -- but the angels of judgement are very professional and don't like to divulge the details of any specific case as that would be unfair to the defendent, so people look in from outside, and listen to gossip from other celestials who feel hard-done-by and assume the worst. ;) jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 20:22:40 -0000 From: "Craw Wurm" Subject: Re: IN> Swipe > Oooo, another thought, good for sneaking stuff past security checks. > Janusite with Swipe approaches a security post with a powerful bomb in his > briefcase. Just before he gets to the guards he Swipes it from himself, no > one notices so no Disturbance. He gets checked by the guards, and let into > whereever it is as he has no bomb (assuming he passes other security > arangements). A few minutes later the bomb returns to him, he plants his > bomb and walks out. Course if he has to see or touch the item Swiped he > better go into the john and Swipe it, but a little planning and good > timiing will work wonders. My first post to the list :::-/ How about the one where the Balseraph of Valefor kills some bloke, and the cops come looking for him and a murder weapon that he's nicely swiped? ( "Gun? what gun?" ) Craw-Wurm Seraph of Michael "I stayed up all night playing poker with tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:45:00 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Canon Doubt and Uncertainty John said: > Well, there's a whole 'nother hush-hush cycle >after Revelations. Plus a few more 'generic' supplements >that look like winners (A Songbook and possibly a >Gamemaster's supplement). Perssonally, I'd like to see a series of "Alernative" interpretations of In Nomine. Chiefly, Dark Victory. Of course, any other "Alternate Earths" would be be welcomed. Dark Victory could probably become a full-fledged book (assuming Redneck goes for the Gold), which would please me to no end. Alternative Interpretations of In Nomine, those might sell quite well... - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd Check out the PBEM In Nomine: Soldiers of Linn webpage! "Nothing is sacred but truth. Too bad nobody can agree on what's sacred." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:59:35 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilim and Reproduction On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Armand wrote: > > > Of Course, this begs the question: Do celestials fall under the > > definition of "life" ? > > Sure, they're just not *organic*. "It's life, Jim. But not as we know it." Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:17:38 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) Do remnants age? When an angel changes vessels, one mutates into the form of the other. During which, the angel is still protected by his corporeal vessel from Celestial attack. This implies that although it makes the disturbance of taking Celestial form, it does not involve the taking of that form. Can a remnant change vessels? Can a remnant use 10 character points to spontaneously regenerate one Celestial force? Does a remnant retain any rites or attunements? == --Querent, Angel of Widescreen. Mercurian Servitor of Creation. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:51:46 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilim and Reproduction >> Okay, so they're not organic. I just can't help but think that they have >> the curse of most immortals. I think that creatures that have a potential >> life span measured in aeons need to have some balance to equate them with >> other living beings. In this light, I have trouble seeing celestial >> reproduction. I think that Lillim could produce human offspring, but >> Lillith was one of the "humans" used in the first experiment (there's an >> out). I just come back to the idea that if celestials can reproduce, then >> the world would be overcome with celestials (being as they don't naturally >> die). > >Keep in mind a few interesting Fun Fax (tm): > >1. There are far more demons in Hell then angels in Heaven. Granted they >are the wimpy 7 force kind, but let's think for a moment. On third of the >Host Fell, and now there are about 10x more demons then angels. They had >to come from SOMEWHERE, and the Princes don't sit around making >demonlings all day. Can you see Asmodeus doing that? These are busy >people, uh, beings. (I advocate vats and breeding programs.) > I can agree to the vat thing. I would also argue for the sauntering downward of many of the angels that were given words that might have promoted them to go on down. Also, Lucifer might just have a track on "creating" celestials. This would give him a strong stance from which to fight God. He also would have few qualms with random creation through experimentation. (demonlings) >2. Time is a funny thing up in Heaven. Granted, they live aeons, but that >millenia that just passed may have felt more like a week. They may >reproduce, but it is slow, and over a long period of time. Also, the >angels are going to take their time working out their relationships before >they're going to do it. So therefore, it balances out. One kid every >2000 years does not equal a breeding program. For that situation, that comes down to a GM decision. What are the odds that the millenial angel-baby is a PC product? Using my math skills, I find that I wouldn't lay down any money on those odds. In my game, only God can create angels. > >3. Heaven and Hell are infinite in size. There is always enough room for >a new Celestial. Not an argument for or against the messier form of reproduction. > >4. Only the choicest, most loyal beings get sent up to Earth. Even if >millions of Angels were suddenly born, the same amount would be sent on >down to the humans - exactly the amount necessary. Again, not really a pro or con, but I'll work with it. The amount necessary will come down to a finite amount. Being there is an amount deemed necessary, then there must also be an amount that exceeds necessity. Hence, there could too many angels on Earth. In this light, Angelic breeding programs for the purpose of opposing the armies of Hell would eventually surpass critical mass. As the addage goes, "Too many cooks spoil the pot." > >So, those are my reasons why they can breed. And in my game, they >certainly do. > >- Em, Breeding the Shedim in the big Vats Armand, Still under the belief that celestials are asexual beings and cannot breed more celestials. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:52:11 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN played with the safety off At 1:11 PM -0400 2/10/98, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >> Things I've noticed are: >> >> (1) The deliberate avoidance of absolute good and evil. >> Absolute values are *out*. Absolutely. > >That kind of bothers me as well. Why were the labels "Heaven" and "Hell" >bothered with, if Heaven and Hell are almost morally equivalent? Canon >should draw a greater distinction between the two realms. Actually, this "moral equivalency" is the way it's supposed to work, somewhat. There is good and evil, sure (but it's up to the GM and players to figure it out for each individual game), but there's this big gray area in between -- there's demons who will be nice and angels who can't be bothered and humans who *live* in that funny gray area. In Nomine is supposed to set up gray areas, and some stuff will be toying around with "If this is Heaven, why is [x] happening?" and "If this is Hell, why does [y] still exist here?" It's the back of the softcover book: "They are very much like us." Anyone who wants can turn the contrast up, of course -- eliminate those gray areas, etc. -- but the game's not conceived as a vehicle to roleplay characters smiting evil. That could get a bit too simple, too easy. This is a war where both sides think they're right, and sometimes they actually see each other as real people, and sometimes they start slipping from their avowed principles... Me, I monkey around with the bell-curve. There are Princes who are *very* dark (Em knows who I mean), and there are Archangels who are very light, and there's a *lot* of gray area in between. Hm. My darkness may be darker than my light, come to think of it. Don't know. I think the overall tone is lighter than the obvious "middle ground" between dark Darkness and slightly-gray Light, though. Must be all those humans. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:12:52 +0100 (MET) From: David Skogsberg Subject: IN> Origins [FLUFF] (fwd) "'In the Beginning,' Yves said, 'there was light.'" And there *was* light, or rather, energy, which folded into complex patterns. This took place before the Universe had existed even 10^-43 seconds, while the Celestial, Ethereal, and Corporeal Realms were still coupled, before the GUT force had had time to decay into the four we know today, before six of the universes ten became compactified and vanished somewhere beneath the Plack lenght (4*10^-35 m), The echoes of this first Creation, when the first Angels were formed, still show to- day, as the fractal ripples of the cosmic background radiation. The patterns of Angelic creation left an imperfect impression on the substratum of the primal GUT plasma, which swiftly decayed into a quark- gluon plasma, where the first instance of life recorded in Yves' Library show up, almost immediately after the decoupling of Celestial and Corpo- real, when time and space first became "unsmeared". These first beings, who were named the Benefactors by the Seraph who recorded their nigh- immeasurably brief existence, left as a legacy traces of themselves that caused inhomogenities in the primeval fireball, leading not only to the formation of matter structures from the "seed" of the Benefactors, but also to the rise of further life, not only much later on the planets and in the stars thus formed, but also as a direct contimuation of their own brief lives. On the further Destiny of the Benefactors the Library is strangely reticent - there are only vague hints of a change, a *transcendence* beyond and (possibly) into the Higher Heavens almost _en masse_, leaving only a few who (it's believed) transcibed their transcended minds onto a hardier, more lasting substrate - that of the space-time of the six compactified dimensions, allowing their probing sensoria to reach out almost everywhere in the universe, recording, remembering, and, most of all, *thinking*, thinking thoughts as far beyond any Angel of the Lower Heavens as that Angel's thoughts are beyond bacteria. There is some evidence that they - or rather, their emissaries - still communicate with Heaven: strange entities have been seen in Yves' Lib- rary, andm a few times, in the Council Spires. It is thought that they, still the forms of life closest to Angels, bring warnings of events far from the Earth, and far from the sphere of interest of most Angels. Inspiration came from Damien Broderick's _The Spike_ (an *EXTREMELY* good book), Terry Pratchett's _Strata_, and too much caffeine and sugar. cd - -- I feel myself riveted by the fleshy ("Mmmm... fleshy") meat ("Mmmm... meat") attached so succulently ("Mmmm... succulent") to my roommate's arm ("Mmmm....roommate. Arm.")..... -Angela Furry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:26:28 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction At 3:48 PM -0500 2/10/98, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>He's the AA of Creation: >"Eli is the exception, of course - he would never refuse to help create >new life."<<< > >I suspect that's another poorly-phrased line that's going to bite us in the >a**, like the one in Night Music about humans becoming demons. Only if taken out of context. The human-demon thing would have been fine if it had been smiley captioned... >I have trouble imagining a couple of Shedim of Lust approaching Eli and >saying "Hey, we want to create a new demon, help us out why don'cha?" and >Eli waving his hand and consenting. Actually, I think this isn't *quite* implied -- "Angels sufficiently desperate to have a child can approach any Archangel. [...] Eli [...] would never refuse to help create new life." (p. APG84) Under crossbreeds (p. APG85), "Of the Archangels, only Eli would even consider assisting in such a union, and even he would be reluctant." And then goes on to say that only Renegades edging towards Bright would be suitable -- so a pair of *DEMONS* could probably be turned down. Though... >He might not refuse outright -- but he's certainly going to ask some >questions and exert some control over the process. "Sure, I'll help >you....oh, like, you know it'll be a Kyriotate, right? And, uh, I'll be >taking care of him....you two just don't seem too maternal, y'know?" Exactly. Perfectly Eli. Though he might also offer to give them visiting privilages -- if they want to do what it takes to get Upstairs... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:31:17 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) At 2:17 PM -0800 2/10/98, Querent wrote: Here's my take on 'em, which is part canon and part "no canon yet". >Do remnants age? At the moment, blest and bedamned if I know. I don't think so, necessarily. It may depend on their self-image/Role. This is something that will be addressed at some point in the future... >When an angel changes vessels, one mutates into the form of the other. > During which, the angel is still protected by his corporeal vessel >from Celestial attack. This implies that although it makes the >disturbance of taking Celestial form, it does not involve the taking >of that form. > >Can a remnant change vessels? I think not. Essentially, they suffer Bound/infinity... If you can find something that suggests they should, though, I'll be happy to look at the references. >Can a remnant use 10 character points to spontaneously regenerate one >Celestial force? Only if the GM allows it. It's not something that will happen without GM fiat. There's a section about "why remnants aren't repaired" in the INC -- that's been my general take on things... >Does a remnant retain any rites or attunements? All of them (including those pertaining to his Word-bound status, if any), but they cannot be used in any coherent manner. However, the remnant *loses* his *resonance*. If any attunements depended on that resonance, he can no longer use 'em. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:40:17 -0600 From: MadLocks Subject: Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) In addition I would like to add another question. Since the remnant is on earth, I can assume that it was a favored servitor. If a superior can create new angels and give forces as reward to his servitors, can he also give a remnant new celestial forces. - ---------- > From: Querent > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) > Date: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 4:17 PM > > Do remnants age? > > When an angel changes vessels, one mutates into the form of the other. > During which, the angel is still protected by his corporeal vessel > from Celestial attack. This implies that although it makes the > disturbance of taking Celestial form, it does not involve the taking > of that form. > > Can a remnant change vessels? > > Can a remnant use 10 character points to spontaneously regenerate one > Celestial force? > > Does a remnant retain any rites or attunements? > > > > > > > == > > > > --Querent, Angel of Widescreen. > Mercurian Servitor of Creation. > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:58:47 -0500 (EST) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: IN> IN Safety's off, just don't shoot MY game... Earl Wajenberg writes: [...] >For instance, I wouldn't expect them to indicate any preference >for Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. On the other hand, they've >already put paganism in an inferior position by relegating those >gods to the Marches and designating them as creations of human >dreams. (Though they (carefully?) avoiding refering to the two major >living paganisms, Hinduism and Shinto.) No, Shinto gets skewered in _The Marches_. Remember the August Prosperity Collective? >That being the case, they have already put themselves in an essentially >"Abrahamic" universe. That being so, they could go a little further >into it and present a world that was a little more Abrahamic and a >little less generic-modern-fantasy. They would not, I think, offend >any more people, and the game would have more distinctive flavor / >color / quality. Not that it doesn't have plenty already. I *know* it would offend more people if it went more in the "Abrahamic" direction. I'd be one of them. Also, I find it difficult to see how it could get any more "authentic" to the feel of the big monotheisms without breaking its current ambivalence (trivalence?) amongst them. Make more definite statements about God the Creator, and it seems almost inevitable you'll start tripping over people's toes on issues like: One or Three? [re: Yves' story in APG] >That is strongly suggestive of pantheism, the idea that the universe >and God are the same thing (not to be confused with polytheism, the >belief in multiple gods). Not that it appears to have affected the >rest of the game particularly. But it was a sort of gratuitous bit >of heresy in a game based on monotheistic religion. Pantheism and panentheism are both entirely compatible with monotheism. They address the issue of immanence versus transcendence, not the issue of plurality. One can argue that everything that exists is part of God without thereby believing in more than one God. It is true that most branches of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam regard the physical universe as an artifact: a thing created by God, not a part of Him. (Full transcendence, versus the full immanence of pantheism and the mix of panentheism.) There are, however, mystical offshoots of all three that are quite comfortable with immanence. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:13:09 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Querent wrote: > Do remnants age? I'd say no. I think they are doomed to just keep existing until they are destroyed or rescued. If nothing else, it makes them even more tragic. > Can a remnant change vessels? If I remember correctly, probably not. It requires a Will roll to switch vessels (I think. Please ignore this if I'm wrong), and they have no Will to roll against or Celestial form to assume while the switch occurs. That might just be in my campaign, though. > Can a remnant use 10 character points to spontaneously regenerate one > Celestial force? Good question. My guess is a definate "maybe". It depends on the whim of the GM and the requirements of the story at that time. Perhaps it requires the points and an Intervention. > Does a remnant retain any rites or attunements? I think they retain their Rites, but I'm not sure about attunements. Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:07:06 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Canon Doubt and Uncertainty On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: > Perssonally, I'd like to see a series of "Alernative" interpretations of > In Nomine. Chiefly, Dark Victory. Of course, any other "Alternate > Earths" would be be welcomed. Dark Victory could probably become a > full-fledged book (assuming Redneck goes for the Gold), which would please > me to no end. I'd rather see a series of historical sourcebooks, detailing important moments in Corporeal, Etherial and Celestial history. It would be nice to see what events were instigated by Heaven (or Hell), and which ones were the humans catching the Celestials flat-footed. Just so long as it stays away from the "White Wolf Syndrome". Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:28:23 +0500 From: daiv@cruzio.com (David M. Barr) Subject: Re: IN>PBEM Casting Call >Auditions are now open for parts in an upcoming Querent film. >To make an appointment with the casting directior, simply respond to >this notice and await further contact. > >Space is limited, first come, first serve. > > > > >== > > > > --Querent, Angel of Widescreen. > Mercurian Servitor of Creation. Is it too late? consider me interested. - -Daiv ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:44:12 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) At 5:40 PM -0600 2/10/98, MadLocks wrote: >In addition I would like to add another question. Since the remnant is on >earth, I can assume that it was a favored servitor. >If a superior can create new angels and give forces as reward to his >servitors, can he also give a remnant new celestial forces. I could have *sworn* I'd gotten all the reasons why it wasn't generally done on the INC... Casca! My Seraph! Help! Do I not have those? - --Beth, Archangel of Archives http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Angels/Arcangel.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:36:25 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Reproduction I'm all over this one. I'm thinking Eli's a mellow guy. Let's see...option 1, refuse a demon's request. Option 2, grant the request, get a newborn angel as my very own, deplete the "parents" of a force or two, have him teach music to other good kids of bad parents... - ---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 3:48 PM -0500 2/10/98, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>>He's the AA of Creation: > >"Eli is the exception, of course - he would never refuse to help create > >new life."<<< > >He might not refuse outright -- but he's certainly going to ask some > >questions and exert some control over the process. "Sure, I'll help > >you....oh, like, you know it'll be a Kyriotate, right? And, uh, I'll be > >taking care of him....you two just don't seem too maternal, y'know?" > > Exactly. Perfectly Eli. Though he might also offer to > give them visiting privilages -- if they want to do what it takes > to get Upstairs... == --Querent, Angel of Widescreen. Mercurian Servitor of Creation. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:55:37 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Canon Doubt and Uncertainty >John said: >> Well, there's a whole 'nother hush-hush cycle >>after Revelations. Plus a few more 'generic' supplements >>that look like winners (A Songbook and possibly a >>Gamemaster's supplement). > >Perssonally, I'd like to see a series of "Alernative" interpretations of >In Nomine. Chiefly, Dark Victory. Of course, any other "Alternate >Earths" would be be welcomed. Dark Victory could probably become a >full-fledged book (assuming Redneck goes for the Gold), which would please >me to no end. Huh? As a newbie, I don't get what you are saying here. What is Dark Victory (an earth where the diabolicals win?) >Alternative Interpretations of In Nomine, those might sell quite well... I think SJG are more likely to publish IN in different time periods first: Prolly mediaeval first, Old testament times (you can be there at the tower of Babel!!) and then followed by (in no particular order): Western, Sci Fi and Pulp/Gangster/Prohibition/20s. Perhaps a WWI and WWII books as well. I'd certainly like to see more "adventure modules" (like "Feast of Blades") for IN - I never seem to have the time to write adventures myself, nowadays. Actually, Old testament times is so cool they might publish that first (is there a "GURPS Biblical"??). Heaps of stories there, and you only have to research one book :-). I doubt New Testament will ever be done - a bit too risky, methinks. David ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:01:46 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > I could have *sworn* I'd gotten all the reasons why it wasn't generally > done on the INC... Casca! My Seraph! Help! Do I not have those? To the best of my knowledge, you have not uploaded them. And I remind you that the FotM link doesn't work. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:16:09 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Dark Victory (Re: IN> Canon Doubt and Uncertainty) At 4:55 PM -0800 2/10/98, David Streeter wrote: >>Perssonally, I'd like to see a series of "Alernative" interpretations >>of In Nomine. Chiefly, Dark Victory. Of course, any other "Alternate >>Earths" would be be welcomed. Dark Victory could probably become a >>full-fledged book (assuming Redneck goes for the Gold), which would >>please me to no end. > >Huh? As a newbie, I don't get what you are saying here. What is Dark >Victory (an earth where the diabolicals win?) Essentially. Check out: http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/seeds/DarkVictory/ And... http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:45:18 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN>Remnants (they sure are fun) - ---gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > > > > On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Querent wrote: > > > Do remnants age? > > I'd say no. I think they are doomed to just keep existing until they are > destroyed or rescued. If nothing else, it makes them even more tragic. I was curious, because p.30 says he would have to "live out the rest of his mundane life". I wondered then would his body take on human reality rather than those qualities of a celestial vessel? > > > Can a remnant change vessels? > > If I remember correctly, probably not. It requires a Will roll to switch > vessels (I think. Please ignore this if I'm wrong), and they have no > Will to roll against or Celestial form to assume while the switch occurs. > > That might just be in my campaign, though. Changing vessels requires 1 point of Essence, and no roll. They still have Essence (don't they?), so they still follow the rules as stated. I'll go with the Bound at level infinity treatment though. Also, if a remnant is created who has multiple vessels, which one then does he enter? > > > Can a remnant use 10 character points to spontaneously regenerate one > > Celestial force? As soon as I wrote that, I thought "Beth will make it a GM's call no doubt." No doubt. As to why Superiors don't just fix it? How? You have to *find* a remnant before even thinking of fixing him. Take a look at p.68. "Without a Heart, and without any Celestial Forces, a Remnant becomes very hard to track....his friends (and his Superior) often can't find him to help..." > > > Does a remnant retain any rites or attunements? > > I think they retain their Rites, but I'm not sure about attunements. Again, p.30. A Remnant keeps all his Corporeal and Ethereal Songs, his Rites, and his Attunements. It then says they can not use them in a *directed* manner. What's directed? If a remnant Angel of Hockey has a rite "stand on the ice for 15 minutes", and he goes hiking on a glacier, does he inadvertantly gain a point of essence? What if his attunement is that he can not be hurt by hockey pucks? Does a flying hockey puck now hurt him? Personally, I read this as "he can't use them if it requires a roll of any type, or if essence use is needed. But for passive "always on" attunements, and by definition any rite, can he still use them? == --Querent, Angel of Widescreen. Mercurian Servitor of Creation. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:10:08 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> The Structure of the Divine Inquisition Here's a little thing I wrote up. It started out in third person, but Ariel reached up from the back of my brain and killed the third person with a flaming sword, which is good, because now my players can regard it as Dominican propaganda rather than GM-revealed Truth. Enjoy! - ---- The Structure of the Divine Inquisition, as related by Ariel, Malak of Judgement [NOTE: The following is a translation into English of a report found in the files of the libraries of Destiny. The angel reports that he tried and was unable to render the human's speech into angelic, and that he therefore left the human's words out of the transcript. Why one of Dominic's Malakim explained the structure of the Inquisition to a human is unknown; Ariel apparently died in celestial combat some years ago, and Dominic himself refuses to comment.] Pay heed, mortal, for the design of the Divine Inquisition is wisdom that few even among the angels of the Host ken. By my vow of service to the archangel Dominic, I testify that whereof I speak is true to the fullest test of my wisom. The archangel Dominic is the angel of Judgement. It his duty, his nature and his pleasure to try and come to correct decision in the face of inadequate knowledge, intellect, and faith, and to teach the others among both the Host and mankind the means he discovers. Indeed, he and his angels have spent many a century protecting the lawgivers of your race and instructing them how best to discover the will of the Lord. You are now wondering why this archangel, whose nature would seem better suited to the role of teacher and scholar than than that of lawyer, is head of the Divine Inquisition that guards the Host from heresy. The reason is less complex than you imagine: since his duty is to come to decision, it follows plainly that having reached a decision he must strive to act upon it, for decision not followed by action is not decision at all, but rather sloth covered with a veil of words. Further, since no judgement but the judgement of the Lord is perfect in its wisdom, the archangel Dominic must take precautions against both erroneously convicting the innocent and foolishly permitting the wicked to escape censure. In addition to prayer to the Lord God, the basic means is to require that more than one mind come to the same conclusion. This is why three angels of Judgement together must meet to pass even the mildest reproof that carries the full authority of the Inquisition. In Heaven, nearly all judgements require a much larger trial, with multiple angels from each choir listening to the testimony and sifting for the truth. There is a complex set of appeals and procedures, all designed to ensure that the truth will out and that judgement is neither too harsh nor too lenient. Best of all, if ever our judgements fall deeply into error, the Lord God Himself will correct us. It is a source of joy among we servants of Dominic that we have served the Lord God well enough that He has not had cause to nullify one of our rulings in over a thousand years! On Earth, alas, we must tread stealthily, lest we disturb the lives of man and alert the forces of Hell to our presence. Thus we come quietly, in groups of three to protect you from the caprice of angels who forget that their station is to serve. Yes, indeed -- we must judge angels, for the Lord is merciful and will not cast an angel into the outer dark unless there is no way for us to bring him back to the light of the Faith. Always we try to keep to three angels, to remind us of the Holy Trinity - -- the Ultimate Power that our judgements must serve. The three angels in a triad will of course vary according to the mission they must perform. I shall first say what is true of every triad of Judgement, and then describe the three most common types of triads, so that you will know how best to aid them in their holy work. All triads are always headed by one of the Most Holy, the Seraphim. It is the duty of the Seraph to ensure that the triad always considers only the truth, to prevent us from coming to the erroneous conclusions that false premises inevitably lead to. Further, the Seraph must report to Dominic that the Triad obeyed all his laws as fully and wholly as they were able. The first type of triad is the Triad of Investigation. It is the function of the Triad of Investigation to discover crimes, pursue suspects, and to name witnesses. In addition to the governing Seraph, a Triad of Investigation will normally contain an angel of motion, one of the Ofanim, to better pursue the suspects and one of the Dominations, a Kyriotate, in order to consider the several possibilities inherent in an investigation and to most easily examine the many relevant crime scenes. Once the witnesses and suspects are named, a Triad of Enquiry is formed, which consists of a Seraph, one of the Elohim, and a Mercurian. There are few that can dissemble before the penetrating questions of a full Triad of Enquiry, and the angels of Judgement soon discover every piece of information the witness knows -- and many he does not! From this, the Triad of Enquiry will determine exactly what happened, and why. Then the final Triad is called, the Triad of Judgement. The Triad of Judgement is always composed of one of the Most Holy, a Cherub, and a Virtue like myself. It is the duty of the Seraph to name the punishment that the laws of Heaven demand, and it is to the Malak that the final appeal for clemency is made. If the Malak feels that the judgement does not meet the standards of honor that Heaven demands, then a new triad is convened and a new sentence passed. Otherwise, it falls to the Cherub to execute the sentence, since no one can match one of the angels of divine love in the mercy and precision with which they do their duty. After each stage, the Seraph in the triad must report to Dominic that the laws of Heaven were fully obeyed, with the best effort the triad could make. Since a Seraph can neither lie nor be lied to, this is a final check to ensure that justice is done. This full procedure is unfortunately only rarely followed, for two reasons. There are few with hearts brave enough -- even among the innocent -- to remain where nine angels of Judgement gather. This saddens me, but less so than the thought that we might be disregarded enough to be ignored. Second, given how few we angels of judgement are, it often happens that we have lack the angels to spare to follow the whole procedure. In these cases, we do the best we are able, and we can expect a very thorough questioning from Dominic about our investigation and judgement. [The next few pages are an abstruse exposition of the theory of divine law. They have been removed since the final paragraph summarizes the important points.] Yes, these laws are complex, but from the perspective of the outsider, there are three salient principles. One, anyone has the right to appeal to a Triad for judgement -- even demons and dreamspawn. The judgement will be as just as we can make it, but once the appeal has been made our judgement is binding. Two, the accused always has the right to testify. This is to ensure that no one is wrongly convicted through a careful presentation of selected facts. Of course, given the exigencies of the War the testimony may be delayed, but judgement may not be rendered until the accused has made his defense. Three, anyone called upon to testify must do so -- we respect no confidences, no privilege of silence. All things are seen by the eye of God, and we will not let silence force us to condone the suffering of the innocent, either of the falsely accused or the unavenged victim. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #619 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.