From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Feb 16 08:51:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA09575 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:51:53 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA02663 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:33:30 -0600 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:33:30 -0600 Message-Id: <199802161433.IAA02663@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #630 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, February 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 630 In this digest: IN> Governing Metaphors for IN IN> Graphics Re: IN> Governing Metaphors for IN IN> Advanced Sorcery IN> Re: IN- Starting With Angelic Discord? Re: IN> Fiat Justitia IN> Re: IN- Tethers for Janus Re: IN> Dolph Lundgren Re: IN> Kabbalah Re: IN> The Bigger Hammer, a silly adventure Re: IN> Is there and In Nomine APA? IN> Re: IN- Starting With Angelic Discord? IN> Re: IN- The Bigger Hammer, a silly adventure Re: IN> Re: IN- The Bigger Hammer, a silly adventure Re: IN> Re: IN- Tethers for Janus Re: IN> Governing Metaphors for IN Re: IN> Re: IN- The Bigger Hammer, a silly adventure IN> IPG IN> Another missive Re: IN> Re: IN- The Bigger Hammer, a silly adventure Re: IN> IN played with the safety off IN> Re: IN- IPG Re: IN> Angels and Planaria (flatworms) Re: IN> Kabbalah Re: IN> Angels and Planaria (flatworms) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:40:27 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> Governing Metaphors for IN Here's an idea I've been toying with for the last week or so. Doesn't really have any Crunchy Mechanics Bits(tm), but it is food for thought, IMHO. - ---- Angels and demons commonly compare Creation to a symphony to explain the nature of reality and their position in it. God's plan is likened to a great musical masterpiece (among angels, anyway) and each soul in the universe is an instrument in the symphony played by the soul's will. If every soul plays the part assigned to it, then God's Will is fulfilled, and the great music fills the ears of all the players. Angels claim that a soul that plays out of turn will cause a dissonant screech that mars the beauty of the entire music, while demons often contend that God is a second-rate hack, wedded to outmoded ideas of harmony and couterpoint. (I'm reminded of the bit in _The Screwtape Letters_ where Screwtape extols the charms of vigorous, dynamic noise.) While this is an instructive metaphor, like all metaphors it emphasizes some aspects of the truth while obscuring others. The metaphor of the symphony is no exception, since while it encapsulates a good description of how different individuals relate, it doesn't have much to say about the relation of Creator and created. I've been toying with a slightly different metaphor -- God as Divine Author and Creation as a poem. What follows has a very Heavenly bias to it, and I would appreciate it if people could toss out some infernal slants on the metaphor. Here goes: God is a poet, and all of reality is a sheet of paper on His desk. Each individual is like a letter of a word in the poem He is writing, but since unlike characters on a page people have intelligence and memory, God gifted each letter with the ability to choose whether or not it would conform with His design. If each lettter -- each soul -- chooses to obey, a poem is formed. But if each letter chooses whatever it likes best, the result will be nonsense. Further, since the reason for a letter's existence is to facilitate communication, it follows that a letter can be at its best only when it is obedient to God's will; and so exactly with human and angelic souls. Lucifer is a letter who decided that he wanted to be God, and that he could become God by taking over the page. (If this sounds like nonsense, well, that's what the angels think, too.) The big plus of this way of looking at this way of things is that it lays out the relation of Creator and created -- traditionally one of the Big Things (tm) in theology -- in a very clear way. Plus it makes the whole individual choice thing very stark, and offers a whole host of implications about what happens when a celestial gets a Word. The big downside, of course, is that it is very hard to explain relations between people with this metaphor, and in fact says very little about any phenomenon in time. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 02:00:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: IN> Graphics Apologies for a possibly-daft question, but does anyone know where I can get a graphic of the cross on the front of the hardback editions of IN? Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 02:13:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Governing Metaphors for IN Interesting. Ponders. I have some ideas about demons: On Sun, 15 Feb 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > If each lettter -- each soul -- chooses to obey, a poem is formed. > But if each letter chooses whatever it likes best, the result will be > nonsense. Not necessarily: any letter on it's own cannot make sense except by combining with others, but who says they have to combine in the way God intended? Any group of humans working together will make their own lines of poetry (or tune in the Symphony, for traditionalists). This may not be what God wants, but it might not be any worse, say the demons. An angel Falls when he gets to thinking that maybe God isn't the best poet after all. This also explains why Asmodeus is so important: without him, the demons _would_ make nonsense. He is the 'typesetter' (or conductor), who makes sure that the demons form the poems (play the songs) composed by Lucifer and Kronos. > a letter can be at its best only when it is obedient to God's will; and > so exactly with human and angelic souls. Heavenly propaganda: we can write at least as well as God can: you'll see. Our work is just rather... avant-guarde, and the Great Tyrant didn't like it. > Lucifer is a letter who decided that he wanted to be God, and that > he could become God by taking over the page. (If this sounds like > nonsense, well, that's what the angels think, too.) Shows what they know. Lucifer is the only poet with any true imagination and creativity. > The big downside, of course, is that it is very hard to explain > relations between people with this metaphor, A group of people is essentially a phrase. Their choice what phrase. > and in fact says very little about any phenomenon in time. Umm... The poem changes over time? I think I'm grasping at straws here, so I'll stop. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 03:00:35 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Advanced Sorcery I was looking at the summoning rules for sorcery in The Marches, and thought that there should be some form of mechanics present for the sorcerous creation of vessels. This is one I whipped up for 'living' vessels. Non-living (golems) would have to be handled differently. I haven't playtested this yet. I just thought I'd pop it up and invite some comment before I do. Advanced sorcery... Human Sacrifice (Focus) Through the sacrifice of a living human being, the sorceror is able to create a vessel for a major ethereal spirit, or a celestial, that lacks one. This new vessel level is equal to the check digit of the Human Sacrifice roll. Once summoned and 'inside', the being can use the vessel much like it would a regular one, yet with one major exception; It's consciousness is bound to the vessel and it may not vacate it. A celestial could still assume their celestial form, just as an ethereal could return to the ethereal plane, but a celestial may NOT ascend to the ethereal plane. Nor may they _possess_ or _project_. Similarly, if the being is ever exorcised, banished, or in fact, possessed itself, then the vessel will also be rendered useless. Note that whereas this skill will generally be appropriate to all demons, many ethereals will be outraged if summoned into a sacrificed being! If the sacrifice was a willing subject then this will add +3 to the initial roll. The 'possessing' entity might also be able to make Will rolls (at penalties) to access old memories/skills of the host (GM discretion). Intervention... If a 111 is rolled, then the ritual fails *disastrously* (GM discretion) The Host is made aware of the sacrifice etc... If 666 is rolled, Then the vessel acts as a normal vessel in all regards, and the entity will no doubt be somewhat pleasantly disposed toward such a 'talented' sorceror lackey. Naturally, a sorceror using this skill would be valued highly by many demons looking for a way to get to earth who currently don't have the favour of their prince. Many other demons who actually *do* have vessels might just lie in order to get a freebie one to use on the side. }:> On a downside; a) the sorceror is going to want a fair amount in exchange for such a service. b) Many princes won't be too happy if they find out that their servants have extra vessels stowed away that they've neglected to mention. This sort of power should not be used lightly. Apart from the obvious legal complications of going around indiscriminantly kidnapping and sacrificing people, all those souls end up going *somewhere*. Wherever that may be, you can count on one thing; they're going to get noticed... - -- Jules - Demon of Skating on Thin Ice. jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:11:20 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Starting With Angelic Discord? >I'm new to this list and I'm sure I'll ask many stupid or inane questions, >so please bare with me. Actually I only bare with my girlfriend ;-) >In the character creation section in the main rule book (p.49) it seems to >imply Discord is something common to take to get more character points and >then on page 60 it says having discord is an incredibly bad thing, >especially for Angels. I think it is more common for demons to take discord at character creation. Calabim *have* to have a discord (or lose their resonance). From the FAQ, Calabim get the extra points for the discord. Here's a question for the rest of the list: Can a Calabim choose a discord at character creation, gain another discord through play and then get rid of the *first* discord, yet still keep his resonance? SurturZ Dissonant Elohite of Stone ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:17:36 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Fiat Justitia > >http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/fiat.html > > > >And I read each installment with great interest. I like these people... > > They are cool people. They have also just been joined by a Mercurian of > Novalis, who runs a coffee-shop. I wait with great interest to see how she > will affect the mess... er, melange. > If there is one thing that the Lilim and Elohite agree on, is the toxic Disneyesque attitude of the Mercurian, and that it needs to be... dealt with. I have this funny feeling she's going to feed me something to make me Happy. Horror upon horrors... I'm FUNNY, not HAPPY! (Yes. Angst meets warm fuzzies. And you thought nuclear war was bad...) > >(Darn it, Maya, do you just *attract* eloquent people who come up > >with these quotable turns of phrase? I am *jealous*!) > > (looks happy) They're cool people. All of them. And a lot of them play > Amber. And create. And write well. I'm fortunate. Now I will persecute them > cruelly and mercilessly. > *bow* Thanks I... uh, think? > >Hm. But I've seen a picture of her, and she wasn't drooling then! > >Besides, she's too eloquent to be a Shedite. > >And she's already said that she's an angel. > >Who likes tattoos. > >And definitely has a personality. > > Elohim do so have personalities. Just ask Caliah. Unless they _want_ you to > think that they're interchangeable bald Barbie dolls, so they can take > advantage of your underestimation of them... > Or just outright manipulate you. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:18:44 PST From: "Andrew Frades" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Tethers for Janus In New Hampshire there is a great place for a Tether to Janus. The top of Mt. Washington where there is a weather observatory and where until recently the highest wind speed in the world was recorded. Andrew ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 00:28:49 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Dolph Lundgren > It looks like, if I cut and splice a few people I know, I could get > my own private Dolph. As luck would have it, I have access to a > gene sequencer and easy access to a Molecular Biologist who is > running a research lab which does a little cloning... > > Hee hee hee. Nah - it you're going to that trouble, go for Hauer. Lundgren is good, but Hauer is just sexier. OTOH, I may be baised because of _Blood of Heroes_, one of my favorite combat movies. (ObIN: I know most AAs wouldn't do vessels which duplicate famous humans, but I know that at least one DP might: Andrealphus. It's just too easy...) Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 00:28:49 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Kabbalah > > There are two interpretations - Qlippoth as shells, where bad > > things happen when the shells are removed from the light of God, > > and Qlippoth as the mirror image, which is a great deal more > > dualistic than most Hebrew lore. > > Sort of. I walked over to my bookshelf of Philosophy (and it's > grown to two shelves now) and pulled off the Lurianic Kabbalah books > and flipped through them. :-( I want a bookshelf of cool stuff. All I have right now is the bible, a discount Kabbalah book, and printouts of stuff from the Web. > This took me about 15 read throughs to get it. When Ein-Sof > emanates, it prepares vessels for the Sephirah to inhabit in a > process called the tsimtsum. The vessels were designed to receive > the sephirah, and broke under their divine light. This is called > the "breaking of the vessels" and the husks (which is what > 'kelippoth' means - shells) were projected downward in a cataclysm > to lean an existance as demonic powers. Everything has a break in > some way, everything has a flaw. Okay; I was under-reading it, and not catching that symbolism. Thank you. > There is alot about why this happened. In one reading, it is that > God needed to push the evil out of Himself and down to earth. > Another is that it's like grains of wheat, where the seed husk is > discarded for the fully grown plant. That explains things better; the seed husk analogy results in what I had labelled the "shells" Qlippoth, while the pushing out of evil (which I still say is more dualistic than your average rabbinical outlook) results in the "mirrors" Qlippoth. Or am I missing something? > Anyway, this all gets very bizarre, talking about the world of the > Shekinah is mixed in with the world of the kelippoth. The world of > nature is mixed in with the world of sin, making our present world. > By following the secret law of the tikkun, one can rid oneself of > the presence of the shells. So if a Jew follows the Law, he can > return some of the Shekinah back to God, ending the exile of both > her and the people of Israel. (This leads right into the Messiah > stuff.) Just found an old email on Sophia, the (fallen) angel of Wisdom (which, it turns out, you wrote). My mind is now churning on the game implications of this; I can't remember the exact reason or timing for the Israelites' exile, which might help solidify things for me. > It's all very Neoplatonic, sort of a strange Lurianic gnosis - but > it's all right out of the Zohar, so it's all in play. Well, never said it wasn't close to standard for Kabbalah, just that it's a bit off from regular rabbinical thought. Which is pretty normal for Kabbalah... > One thing to keep in mind about the Kabbalah is that none of it is > to be taken literally. (A big hint to you Golden Dawners out > there.) To take it as anything more then symbolism is to walk a > tight rope over that evil concept of idolatry. Which is *exactly* where my Kabbalic sorcerer character may be headed, if he ain't careful. Of course, he follows my first rule of character creation[1] so he's going to be a hoot to play anyway. [1] "Screw yourself over, so the GM doesn't feel obligated to." > - Em. (Oooh, my head.) My sympathies; I've been working (off and on) on "translating" the bible and apocrypha into a history for my game. I've had one archangel go AWOL, one die, and who would fall except that you can't fall off the floor. The biggest problem I'm having is deciding if two similar names refer to the same angel; Zaphiel and Zaphkiel, for instance. This is not aided by the fact that at least one book in the Apocrypha refers to Uriel by a name which doesn't even come close to looking like Uriel... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 00:28:49 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> The Bigger Hammer, a silly adventure > A lot of the ideas I have will never see the light of day, since > they won't fit into my game. But sometimes I get an idea that just > won't let go, even though it's completely not the right stuff. > > This is one of those ideas. Oh, god. This is great. I've got to run this at TotalCon... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 00:28:49 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Is there and In Nomine APA? > Its me again. Is there and In Nomine APA? If not is there any > interest in trying to start one? I'd be interested in participating > if there were any interest. We could model it after All of the > Above, the GURPS APA, which seems pretty successful to me. Of > course, we'd have to find someone with the time and ambition to > organize it. Well, I'm of two minds. On the one hand, an APA would be nice, and I'd love to participate. OTOH, given that most of the people are going to be part of in-nomine-l anyway, is it worth the extra trouble? Much of the GURPS APA is available on the web these days anyway; the remaining people simply don't have web access to put it there. The main advantage is having a nice hard-copy available, AFAICT. Organizing it I could do, but I'd probably charge a little extra to cover the time invested. If somebody is willing and able to do it gratis, I'd encourage them to come forth; otherwise, I am available, and my "rates" would be very reasonable. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:42:58 PST From: "Andrew Frades" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Starting With Angelic Discord? >In the character creation section in the main rule book (p.49) it seems to >imply Discord is something common to take to get more character points and >then on page 60 it says having discord is an incredibly bad thing, >especially for Angels. I realize that any type of discord is a direct >reflection of the celestial's disharmonly with the Symphony (for Angels) >and self interest or nature (for Demons), but do the different types of >discord mean different things? Is celestial discord worse that coporeal? If >so, is coporeal or ethereal discord less of a stigma than celestial discord? Discord is basically just bad as far as angelic superiors go. They hate it. As far as which type is the worst, it depends upon your choir and the specific discord involved. Some are worse than others (ex: Lilim and Aura). Basically the type of Discord refers to what type of force the problem is connected to (physical, mental, or spiritual). >Another question about discord. If all discord is bad for Angels (as stated >in the book) and for your Superior to find out about it a disaster, how do >you get rid of it? The rules are a bit confusing. The rules state that any >Archangel can get rid of it, but go on to say (or at least strongly >implies) your Superior must get rid of it (in the box on p. 61). Which is >it? Does it have to be your Superior? Personally I think any Archangel >should be able to remove the discord either as a reward to the player or as >a favor to be collected later. Plus it would always give that Archangel >something to hold over the character's head in the future. I would imagine that any superior could remove discord (or dissonance) but why would they? If you can come up with a good enough reason (perhaps you did them a favor or furthered their word) they would certainly do so. Two things to keep in mind though: Archangels are extremely possesive of their servitors and might take any favors done you out on you. Discord means that the angel has been behaving in a less than exemplary manner (much less) and might have been in danger of falling on multiple occasions. Why would any superior other then your own risk the energy required to remove this discord? Andrew ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:47:06 PST From: "Andrew Frades" Subject: IN> Re: IN- The Bigger Hammer, a silly adventure >> A lot of the ideas I have will never see the light of day, since >> they won't fit into my game. But sometimes I get an idea that just >> won't let go, even though it's completely not the right stuff. >> >> This is one of those ideas. > >Oh, god. This is great. I've got to run this at TotalCon... I wouldn't. Flaw with idea. Malakim of David that use their choir attunement are both indestructible and immovable. Andrew ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:04:06 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- The Bigger Hammer, a silly adventure >>> A lot of the ideas I have will never see the light of day, since >>> they won't fit into my game. But sometimes I get an idea that just >>> won't let go, even though it's completely not the right stuff. >>> >>> This is one of those ideas. >> >>Oh, god. This is great. I've got to run this at TotalCon... > >I wouldn't. Flaw with idea. Malakim of David that use their choir >attunement are both indestructible and immovable. That is not a flaw. Just say the Malakim used it at the place where the battle goes down, Everything still works then. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 01:06 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Tethers for Janus >In New Hampshire there is a great place for a Tether to Janus. The top >of Mt. Washington where there is a weather observatory and where until >recently the highest wind speed in the world was recorded. Yep, we've been using this one in our game. It's nearly ideal, since there's usually a stiff wind up there (50mph is not uncommon), and there's even a road up to the top of the mountain (there's a visitors' center there, along with some other stuff besides the weather station). There's also a cog railway to the top. All kinds of random people come and go from there, so no one's going to notice that not everyone who goes there comes back, or that sometimes people just appear there from nowhere. The only real problem with it is that it's nearly impossible to get there in winter... at least if you're a mortal. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:44:28 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Governing Metaphors for IN At 02:13 16/02/98 +0000, you wrote: > >> a letter can be at its best only when it is obedient to God's will; and >> so exactly with human and angelic souls. > >Heavenly propaganda: we can write at least as well as God can: you'll see. >Our work is just rather... avant-guarde, and the Great Tyrant didn't like >it. Its verse libre isn't it? (Aargh, get away, foul poets who don't rhyme! Heresy ;-P ) jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:33:45 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- The Bigger Hammer, a silly adventure >>> A lot of the ideas I have will never see the light of day, since >>> they won't fit into my game. But sometimes I get an idea that just >>> won't let go, even though it's completely not the right stuff. >>> >>> This is one of those ideas. >> >>Oh, god. This is great. I've got to run this at TotalCon... > >I wouldn't. Flaw with idea. Malakim of David that use their choir >attunement are both indestructible and immovable. > >Andrew I'm sorry, but with something that is just that much fun; you have to side step a rule here or there. I read the idea to some of my friends that had no interest in ever plating IN. Now, I have three new players for my campaign. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:52:48 -0600 From: MadLocks Subject: IN> IPG Does anybody have any idea when the Infernal Players Guide is supposed to come out? Balseraph of (none of your business) madlocks@mci2000.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:01:13 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: IN> Another missive Dear Gregor, I regret that I have not been able to return your letter sooner but we have been very busy here and although the seneschal assured me that he would make sure you received this, I do not think he considered urgency to be a high priority. I had suggested to our beloved master that the celestial song of tongues would be useful, but he looked through me and said that it would be inappropriate at this time -- but I'm getting ahead of myself a little. Gregor, my concerns may be summed up in that I am not altogether happy about the depth of commitment of many angels who I have encountered on the corporeal plane and most of those are ours. I have decided that the other two angels in the triad to which I have been assigned are hard-working and competent, although all their time spent on this plane of existance has definitely affected their judgement. It is a good thing that I am here to point this out to them! Kol is an Elohite and told me that he thinks there are times when inexperienced seraphim should be seen and not heard -- I asked him what reason he might have to be afraid of what I had to say, but he said that wasn't quite what he meant. I think that people, especially angels, should say what they mean! No offence intended but Gerda the cherub is almost worse. She told me that she knows you and asked me to pass on her regards -- I think it is your responsibility as a friend to warn her about the possible consequences of her behaviour. When we were all introduced, she said that she was saddened that her previous triad had been broken up! I understand now why it is so important that we rotate celestials on a regular basis. Whilst it is desirable for triads to be able to learn to work as teams, it would be disasterous if members were to get so attached as to affect their judgement where it applies to each other. Naturally I told her this and she seemed properly chastened, but I am not convinced that she entirely agrees. Gerda tells me that usually they try to arrange for one of the local Mercurians to work with Seraphim, but my arrival here has been at quite short notice and that hasn't been possible, so in the meantime I am staying with one of our soldiers. I had thought initially that she must be one of the rare failures, because how much use can a blind lawyer be in combatting infernal forces? Also she is quite rude, and seems to strongly believe that it is important to defend the guilty as well as the innocent. However, over the course of the week I have changed my opinion as she does seem very committed to our work, perhaps moreso than some of the angels I have met, and she is very good about trying to say what she means. I will try to tell you more about her next time I write, but it is helpful to have a level against which to measure other mortals. I spoke to one of Jordi's angels who was most efficient in its job, and it said that it would be flattered if it was compared to a hyena because they are very efficient predators who work well in packs. I am not entirely sure how that was relevant. We had been having a quiet week. The other two say that this is because they would like to give me time to settle in, but I wonder if they are just being lazy. I decided not to tell them my concerns until observations had borne this out, but instead made pains to volunteer our services for every investigation that came up on the roster which they keep at the tether. I was concerned to see that when one name came up, all the angels of judgement who were around seemed to be trying to ignore it or avoid volunteering so of course I offered our assistance. The seneschal asked me if I was sure we wanted to go and investigate one of Michael's Ofanim so I told him that even the suggestion we might not be keen to do our masters work was heretical thinking and I didn't find it helpful. Kol was giving me one of his 'seraphim should be seen and not heard' looks but I ignored it. Anyway, I will try to keep in touch and tell you how everything is going down here, and how this investigation works out. I had made my report to our master yesterday for the first time, and although I was very nervous I think that it went well. He said that I should try to work with my triad closely as they are very experienced angels who can teach me a lot of what I need to know, but of course one must be ever vigilant. He spoke to Rachel (my soldier) also which surprised me, and she seemed quite fond of him. I do miss having you around to consult on a regular basis, but as you can see, I really am doing well on my own! You really had nothing to worry about. Regards, Yael - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 04:27:12 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- The Bigger Hammer, a silly adventure > >> A lot of the ideas I have will never see the light of day, since > >> they won't fit into my game. But sometimes I get an idea that just > >> won't let go, even though it's completely not the right stuff. > >> > >> This is one of those ideas. > > > >Oh, god. This is great. I've got to run this at TotalCon... > > I wouldn't. Flaw with idea. Malakim of David that use their choir > attunement are both indestructible and immovable. Minor flaw; maybe Vap figured out how to move him (take a large enough amount of the topsoil, maybe). Excuse for angels w/ big guns is good; I feel all sorts of cool quotes just oozing at the sides of this one... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:59:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> IN played with the safety off > ** grin ** > > So all we need to do is find one more person and we can form a > threeso^D^D^D^D^ triad! > You'll take me, right? My mistresses' Word would be very well served in a Triad. > > (ObRelevance -- An alternative reason to the rule of three for those who > aren't so hot on the trinity symbolism is that one judge would not be able > to ensure their own judgement wasn't getting out of alignment after a long > stretch on the road, two might get deadlocked, so three is the minimum > number who can disagree and then have a discussion and vote to determine > the majority view -- members of a triad keep each other in line). I always assumed that was the reason. Where did the Trinity idea come from? (I loved the retirement spoof, btw, and Casca's friend's writeup of the Death of Gabriel (Yves).) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:00:32 PST From: "Andrew Frades" Subject: IN> Re: IN- IPG > Does anybody have any idea when the Infernal Players Guide is >supposed to come out? The plan is for the end of March IIRC. Andrew ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:10:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Planaria (flatworms) > > Okay, I stated earlier that I believe that celestials are asexual beings. > I still hold to this. I still don't think your average celestial capable > of reproducing. Someone, I deleted the message so I don't remember who, > stated that I must be wrong based on the example of the flatworm. > It was a joke (well, partly). Must I tag all statements of mine which are supposed to be humourous with a smiley? I wasn't making an exact paralell between angels and flatworms, just pointing out that there were example of asexual reproduction in the Corporeal Realm, so that I didn't see why there wouldn't be examples of it in the Celestial Realm. Of course, not all Celestials regard themselves as being asexual either. It appears that many of them show a distinct preference. > However, I am still not convinced that non-superior celestials are capable > of breeding. I may just be a stodgy old man or something, but I just don't > see why it needs done. > Why not? What is so massively wrong with the idea? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:23:06 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Kabbalah > > Sort of. I walked over to my bookshelf of Philosophy (and it's > > grown to two shelves now) and pulled off the Lurianic Kabbalah books > > and flipped through them. > > :-( > > I want a bookshelf of cool stuff. All I have right now is the bible, > a discount Kabbalah book, and printouts of stuff from the Web. I've been working on my bookshelf for several years, so don't feel bad. Much was contributed by my Philosophy habit in college. (We engineers don't get minors, but I had plenty of credits...) Some people smoke, some drink, I do space-time physics. Kabbalah was my interest in grad school. > > There is alot about why this happened. In one reading, it is that > > God needed to push the evil out of Himself and down to earth. > > Another is that it's like grains of wheat, where the seed husk is > > discarded for the fully grown plant. > > That explains things better; the seed husk analogy results in what I > had labelled the "shells" Qlippoth, while the pushing out of evil > (which I still say is more dualistic than your average rabbinical > outlook) results in the "mirrors" Qlippoth. Or am I missing > something? That sounds about right. I could not find the mirrors analogy in my books, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. It just means I wasn't looking in the right place. One thing about the 'removing evil from God and pushing it to Earth with the rest of the debris' is this is clearly influenced by Gnostic sources, as a way to explain why the world is so nasty but God is so pure. I have a collection of 14 essays on Kabbalah by Rabbi Yossi Markel. They can be found online at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5245/, click on the "Kabbalah Post Series" link. He clearly states that 'Magickal' or 'Christian' Kabbalah is different, and invites you to go elsewhere. As a COMPLETE tangent, there's a short Kabbalahesque Lilith story on the site: "When G-d first created Adam He created a wife for him - Lillith. Unlike Eve, Lillith had her reproductive organs on the outside, like a man. Adam did not like that. He found her shape disgusting. G-d then made Eve for Adam out of his rib. After Cain killed his brother Habel, Adam refused to cohabitate with Eve for 130 years. During those years Lillith came to him at night. From these unions, the Demons were born." Wack. > > Anyway, this all gets very bizarre, talking about the world of the > > Shekinah is mixed in with the world of the kelippoth. The world of > > nature is mixed in with the world of sin, making our present world. > > By following the secret law of the tikkun, one can rid oneself of > > the presence of the shells. So if a Jew follows the Law, he can > > return some of the Shekinah back to God, ending the exile of both > > her and the people of Israel. (This leads right into the Messiah > > stuff.) > > Just found an old email on Sophia, the (fallen) angel of Wisdom > (which, it turns out, you wrote). My mind is now churning on the > game implications of this; I can't remember the exact reason or > timing for the Israelites' exile, which might help solidify things > for me. Well, think 70 AD and the destruction of the Temple. There was far more exile stuff added when the Jews were thrown out of Spain. > > One thing to keep in mind about the Kabbalah is that none of it is > > to be taken literally. (A big hint to you Golden Dawners out > > there.) To take it as anything more then symbolism is to walk a > > tight rope over that evil concept of idolatry. > > Which is *exactly* where my Kabbalic sorcerer character may be > headed, if he ain't careful. Of course, he follows my first rule of > character creation[1] so he's going to be a hoot to play anyway. I know that rule. I know it well. Hey, if you're lucky, you can be the next False Messiah. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:25:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Planaria (flatworms) > > However, the more I think on it, the less I like it. The APG took the > angels farther away from being humans. The idea of breeding doesn't seem > to mesh. It makes the angels more "human". I like all my celestials three > steps away from anything earthly. > *shrug* The fact that many angelic/demonic Celestial forms look humanoid doesn't point you in that direction already? > Another thing that I don't like about it, is that it does set a situation > for power gamers, which I unfortunately have a few of in my group. They > would see this as a chance to start making their very own celestial armies, > becoming equivalent to their superiors in a short span of time. By taking > away the breeding option, that focus for power gamers in my group is gone. > Now, they have to find newer and more creative ways to power game. > Hmmm...power gamers. As a ruleslawyer (which is not the same thing), I doubt it very much by the canon method. I doubt it in the case of unassisted breeding too, even assuming it didn't cause them to lose Forces, but I'll get back to that. By the canon method, they have to get a Superior to approve, and they have to donate Forces. Now how many Superiors are going to add seven Forces and let each of the other participants donate 1 each? Surely some level of commitment is expected by Superiors. Besides, one assumes that many Superiors would prefer it if the parents actually _loved_ one another. Looked at it that way, it could be seen as a tool for getting your powergamers to roleplay. In any event, assume you've got your new angel/demon at minimum cost (after all, there's no point doing it for a reliever/demonling in powergaming terms, since they can just spend the cps for a servant, and ask the Superior nicely, a request much more likely to be granted). Your angel/demon still knows nothing other than its inherent languages and its resonance, and it doesn't understand the proper use of those. It doesn't have any Songs, skills, Vessels, etc. And if you're not a Superior, you can't just teach Songs and skills with the flick of wrist (can non-Superiors teach Songs?). If you're interested in a restraining powergamers at all, they should require months of training to improve. During those months, they'll be out of action, and moreover, their enemies will have a hostage against them, which is a Bad Thing(tm). I don't see it as a problem with powergamers. The system as presented is a positive disincentive to powergamers. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #630 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.