From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Feb 17 12:51:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09409 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:51:04 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA02657 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:37:30 -0600 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:37:30 -0600 Message-Id: <199802171837.MAA02657@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #632 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, February 17 1998 Volume 01 : Number 632 In this digest: Re: IN> Angels and Planaria (flatworms) IN> In Nomine stereotypes Re: IN> Hitler Re: IN> In Nomine stereotypes Re: IN> Re: IN- Starting With Angelic Discord? Re: IN> Is there and In Nomine APA? Re: IN> In Nomine stereotypes Re: IN> Is there and In Nomine APA? Re: IN> Hitler Re: IN> Maya Fan Club (Re: Lilim and Reproduction) Re: IN> Is there and In Nomine APA? IN> More Metaphor IN> more web rpg resources IN> Re: IN- Is there and In Nomine APA? Re: IN> Angels and Planaria (flatworms) Re: IN> IN played with the safety off Re: IN> In Nomine stereotypes Re: IN> Re: IN- Tethers for Janus Re: IN> IN played with the safety off Re: IN> Graphics Re: IN> Innocence Attunements (was Re: The Death of Yves) Re: IN> Hitler, a latter day Job Re: IN> In Nomine stereotypes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:40:00 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Planaria (flatworms) >> However, I am still not convinced that non-superior celestials are capable >> of breeding. I may just be a stodgy old man or something, but I just don't >> see why it needs done. >> >Why not? What is so massively wrong with the idea? > >Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. I'm stepping out of the on-topic protection ring; okay. I don't know if you have ever played Werewolf, but this is also where the main portion of my base disagreements come from. Many of my players in that game work toward having litter upon litter. From this, spawns a whole debate on the genetics involved in creating said litter. Hence, game time is eaten away by, "My shadow lord got together with the kinfolk of a get of Fenris. What do we get? A homid? Well, we're going to try again." They're never happy with the result. So, I just say no. Also, I don't like angels and demons being anthropomorphized. They aren't human. The more human characteristics that you give them, the more that it seems that we are just playing a super hero game. I already have enough super hero games to last me a number of good years. I want to play a game that has beings that are outside the human scope. I just can accept the idea that allowing angels and demons to procreate unaided is a positive aspect to the game. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:01:48 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> In Nomine stereotypes >Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:00:26 +0000 (GMT) >From: Kevin Walsh > >I resent that stereotype profoundly. My smartest character (and the first >one I ever made), with an intelligence of 9, is a Calabite. He's >profoundly nasty in a way that is usually only achieved by humans or >Shedim. And the Force I docked to pay for that was Corporeal. Speaking of stereotypes, I've been wondering why the Shedim get such a bad rap. I mean, sure they have to corrupt their hosts, but most of the time they aren't going to be sticking around to do heavy damage. Their resonance doesn't really have any greater capability to do evil than any other infernal power. Let's take a human, call him Mr. Up Standing. Now, Mr. Standing has a sick wife, and though he loves her, he is stressed and exhausted by the demands he has been forced to shoulder. Now a Lilim and a Shedite make a bet: who can get Mr. Standing to murder his wife more horribly? Now the Shedite shows up, and possesses him. It has a week -- tops -- to take Mr. Standing from jay-walking to getting him to murder his wife, before it is certain of being ejected. *Each time* it tries to get him to do something bad, Standing gets a Will roll to resist, and it can only build him up to murder gradually. And even if he does get Standing to the point of being willing to kill, it sees more resistance the more brutal a killing it wants. The Lilim, on the other hand, shows up and spends a few days doing nothing more than listen sympathetically to Mr. Standing when he talks about how hard it is for him to watch his wife suffer -- collecting a Geas/2 each time. Then she pools the little Geases and invokes a Geas/6: murder your wife with a blunt spoon and don't show her the slightest bit of remorse or sympathy when you do it. Mr. Standing gets a Will roll, but it's at a *minus six* penalty, and if he somehow makes it, the Lilim gets to try again. Compare this to the multiple Will rolls with bonuses the Shedite faces. And let's not even /think/ about what a Habbalah could do in this situation... - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:57:26 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Hitler >Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:45:45 -0500 >From: Frank Lazar >Subject: Re: IN> Hitler, a latter day Job > > Much of the myth of Nazi efficency and competence I suspect came from the >fact that the majority of the other countries on the scene of the period, >France, England, and the U.S. were clumsier schmucks in dealing with the >post World War One fallout. The Hitler's field tests in the Spanish Civil >War was a wakeup call that in this country was only heeded by "leftists, >liberals, and pinko communists" whose valiant if unsuccessful attempt to >stave the tide of dictatorship is still largely unacknowledged today. That's an interesting misreading of history. IIRC, Romer -- the head of the SA, the Brown Shirts -- claimed that Marxists made the best recruits for the Nazi party, and his counterpart among the Marxists regarded the Nazi rank-and-file in much the same light. Both groups shared a contempt for classical liberal ideas about individual rights and respect for the individual conscience. (Eric Hoffler's _The True Believer_ has an interesting take on the phenomenon; it's also probably the best how-to-play-Habbalah guide ever written.) Totalitarianism was seen as the wave of the future: remember "I have seen the future and it works"? The trouble the left had with Hitler was that he believed in races rather than classes, and worshipped the Volk rather than the proletariat. Reading Trotsky's writings from the 30's is incredibly depressing, for just this reason. (Fortunately, the sixties came and the left absorbed ideas of democracy and individual rights, but that was still a generation or two down the road.) Of course, the reason that leftist (and for that matter, rightists like Hayek and von Mises) opposition to the fascist countries has been forgotten is probably a lot simpler. Once the Nazi atrocities were discovered, people convinced themselves that they had always opposed the Nazis, which meant that the early, lone voices had to be forgotten by everyone who wanted to stay convinced. On a slightly lighter note: In L. Sprague DeCamp's _Lest Darkness Fall_, it is noted that the trains in Fascist Italy did not in fact run on time; it was just against the law to say the truth. (This is probably a stealable anecdote for the Game in In Nomine.) - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:00:28 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine stereotypes On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Let's take a human, call him Mr. Up Standing. Now, Mr. Standing has a > sick wife, and though he loves her, he is stressed and exhausted > by the demands he has been forced to shoulder. > > Now a Lilim and a Shedite make a bet: who can get Mr. Standing to > murder his wife more horribly? > > Now the Shedite shows up, and possesses him. It has a week -- tops -- > to take Mr. Standing from jay-walking to getting him to murder his > wife, before it is certain of being ejected. *Each time* it tries > to get him to do something bad, Standing gets a Will roll to resist, > and it can only build him up to murder gradually. And even if he > does get Standing to the point of being willing to kill, it sees > more resistance the more brutal a killing it wants. Doesn't actually follow. There's nothing saying the Shedite can't just posess him and attempt to make him murder his wife right then, right there. It's never specified just how gradual the corruption must be; why not a new evil thing every 10 minutes until he's worked up to murder? Sure, Mr. Standing gets a Will roll, but the Shedite rolls against his Will *plus* the original check digit. This means autosuccess for a Will 10 Shedite (hardly uncommon) with an original CD of 2+; with a CD of 3+, it's a bonus to the check digit. And Mr. Standing is very unlikely to have a Will above 4 (assuming he went heavy on Celestial Forces). Let's take the following situations: Will 10 Shedite rolls resonance, gets a CD of 4 on the posession, and gets in. He then decides "we're going to murder your/my wife" and rolls his effective Will of 14. With the CD at +2, let's say he rolls a 5, for a CD of 7. Mr. Standing now has to roll against his Will, and *match or beat* a CD of 7! For a heavy-Willed human with a Will of 4, that means that he has no chance in HELL of resisting unless you *more than triple* his Will to resist the Shedite's lure. Even if you give him a Perception roll right there, and he makes it, the bonuses you have to stack onto his Will to beat that CD are huge. I'm all for giving a big bonus to resist such a wild urge, but I have a hard time giving more than double the original Will, or +6 at the very most. > The Lilim, on the other hand, shows up and spends a few days doing > nothing more than listen sympathetically to Mr. Standing when he talks > about how hard it is for him to watch his wife suffer -- collecting > a Geas/2 each time. Then she pools the little Geases and invokes > a Geas/6: murder your wife with a blunt spoon and don't show her the > slightest bit of remorse or sympathy when you do it. A Geas/6 for murdering a loved one? I'd make it higher...in my opinion, Geas/6 is enough for murdering someone you hate...a random person would be 7, a friend 8-9, and a loved one 10-12. Of course, this doesn't mean your example doesn't hold--I just think it'd take a little longer. > Mr. Standing gets a Will roll, but it's at a *minus six* penalty, and > if he somehow makes it, the Lilim gets to try again. Compare this to > the multiple Will rolls with bonuses the Shedite faces. Doesn't seem at all balanced in the Lilim's favor to me. The only bonuses in the Shedite/human contest are for the Shedite.... > And let's not even /think/ about what a Habbalah could do in this > situation... Habbalah are EVIL. Cruel and EVIL. I love 'em. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:36:53 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Starting With Angelic Discord? >At 7:11 PM -0800 2/15/98, David Streeter wrote: >>Here's a question for the rest of the list: Can a Calabim choose a >>discord at character creation, gain another discord through play and >>then get rid of the *first* discord, yet still keep his resonance? > >I think the IPG is going to say no to that -- the initial Discord >is a part of the Calabite... Of course, whatever the GM wants is In fact, I think it's stated that way in the main rules as well. The only way for a Calabite to get rid of his original Discord would be Redemption. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:34:38 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Is there and In Nomine APA? >>Except for the cost of Adobe Acrobat ($255 last time I looked). If >>you have it, great, but otherwise making PDF documents could be a bit >>tough... > >I have access to PageMaker 6.5 that can save documents in PDF format. > MacWarehouse had Acrobat for half that price, but like the man said, theversion included with PageMaker would do the job as well. I have the full version (3.01) so I could convert postscript, Quark and certain other file types to PDF as well. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:46:06 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine stereotypes At 09:01 PM -0500 02/16/1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >Speaking of stereotypes, I've been wondering why the Shedim get such >a bad rap. I mean, sure they have to corrupt their hosts, but most >of the time they aren't going to be sticking around to do heavy >damage. Their resonance doesn't really have any greater capability to >do evil than any other infernal power. Shedim are among those Bands whose inherent nature is to corrupt, a Lilim, conceivably a "free" one could play either side of the fence. Now you bring it up, I remember a tv series some years back about this freelance PR type that had this hot car, went around helping people with his standard payment a Favor that would be called in at a later date. In fact to solve his current case, he'd frequently need to call in a Favor from a previous client. > >Let's take a human, call him Mr. Up Standing. Now, Mr. Standing has a >sick wife, and though he loves her, he is stressed and exhausted >by the demands he has been forced to shoulder. > >Now a Lilim and a Shedite make a bet: who can get Mr. Standing to >murder his wife more horribly? > >Now the Shedite shows up, and possesses him. It has a week -- tops -- >to take Mr. Standing from jay-walking to getting him to murder his >wife, before it is certain of being ejected. *Each time* it tries >to get him to do something bad, Standing gets a Will roll to resist, >and it can only build him up to murder gradually. And even if he >does get Standing to the point of being willing to kill, it sees >more resistance the more brutal a killing it wants. > That's not true, the Shedim could attempt to do it on the first Will roll, the main reason for the usual practise of gradual corruption is to extend the time the Shedim can stay in the host of the moment. After all if on the first day of posession you have your host whack off a busload of people, what are you going to do to top that off tomorrow and can you find enough time to do the particular assignment that your Superior is expecting to get done tomorrow. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:52:18 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Is there and In Nomine APA? >> >Except for the cost of Adobe Acrobat ($255 last time I looked). If >> >you have it, great, but otherwise making PDF documents could be a bit >> >tough... >> >> I have access to PageMaker 6.5 that can save documents in PDF >> format. > >Okay. What about the rest of us? > >I don't mean to sound harsh, but if we have to describe the layout of >the page to you and have you do it, it's probably easier to simply >lay out the page ourselves on paper, and have somebody photocopy it. >Or lay it out in HTML; it won't print exactly right, but it'll be >close enough, usually. > I have Acrobat so I could take anybody's work in PDF and convert it over. There's also the Edoc self-opening document option for Macs, and I believe something similar for Windows, but Acrobat is more widely cross-platform, there are readers for Mac, Windows, Unix, even a program that will process PDF on the Amiga! (Ghostscript) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:58:01 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Hitler At 09:57 PM -0500 02/16/1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >>Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:45:45 -0500 >>From: Frank Lazar >>Subject: Re: IN> Hitler, a latter day Job >> >> Much of the myth of Nazi efficency and competence I suspect came from the >>fact that the majority of the other countries on the scene of the period, >>France, England, and the U.S. were clumsier schmucks in dealing with the >>post World War One fallout. The Hitler's field tests in the Spanish Civil >>War was a wakeup call that in this country was only heeded by "leftists, >>liberals, and pinko communists" whose valiant if unsuccessful attempt to >>stave the tide of dictatorship is still largely unacknowledged today. > >That's an interesting misreading of history. IIRC, Romer -- the head >of the SA, the Brown Shirts -- claimed that Marxists made the best >recruits for the Nazi party, and his counterpart among the Marxists >regarded the Nazi rank-and-file in much the same light. Both groups >shared a contempt for classical liberal ideas about individual rights >and respect for the individual conscience. (Eric Hoffler's _The >True Believer_ has an interesting take on the phenomenon; it's also >probably the best how-to-play-Habbalah guide ever written.) > it's not on topic to extend the debate here, but I'd recomend to you the documentary film, "Land Without Bread" made during the time. Also note I was using the labels applied to a group of artists, writers, thinkers that are usually described as being on the left. The left movement included more than a few who were not Marxists and who hated Stalin with a passion, just as no doubt there were right-wingers who were less than enthuisastic about the Nazi party. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:51:12 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Maya Fan Club (Re: Lilim and Reproduction) > >A book about a teenage girl who seduces her (step?)father. [...] > >It also refers to the father fantasy that some people find > >sexually attractive - an older, powerful authority figure, often > >with the hint of naughtiness. > > Ahhhhhhh. Hm. Ewwwwwwwww. (But mind you, my sire's a > Balseraph. If I had a Malakite daddy, I suppose that would be more > interesting. Especially if I were a Lilim. Or any sort of celestial. > Especially Creationers. Our Creationers have no problem partying > with "Daddy Eli"... Even the ones who could really call him that.) Well, it's nasty mostly because of the twin taboos of Incest and Pedophilia. Presumably incest isn't as much of a problem for Celestials, because inbreeding isn't a problem (although...), and Pedophilia only works if it's a new Celestial (which K.K. is not). So it's more the implication. But anyway - I ramble... > >It was her - I haven't read your version; I'll go check it, now that > >I know about it. > > Well, the thing is, we were co-writing that, a paragraph or three > at a time. I think she moved the plot more than I did. (She's just > so much *better* at it...) (Maya, are you *sure* I did the Shedim > Pit? I'm going to have to go back and look at the original... Hm. > Should we put the initial, messy, exerpts-from-the-triad, > unformatted version up as well?) It might be interesting, at least; that is one of the tighter pieces of collaborative fiction I've seen, so seeing how it went together might be useful. > >Oh, yeah. Em for Game and Dark Humor, Beth for Lilim and Lilith, and > >Maya for Elohim, Habbalah, and War. You three end up defining a > >bunch of my images of In Nomine. > > Oh, *good*. (Em for the Game? Heh... Go, Em, go!) Well, definately more for Dark Humor, and for all the evil baddie nasties that lurk outside of the bounds of canon. But she does Game fairly well too. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:51:12 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Is there and In Nomine APA? > >I don't mean to sound harsh, but if we have to describe the layout of > >the page to you and have you do it, it's probably easier to simply > >lay out the page ourselves on paper, and have somebody photocopy it. > >Or lay it out in HTML; it won't print exactly right, but it'll be > >close enough, usually. > > I have Acrobat so I could take anybody's work in PDF and convert it > over. There's also the Edoc self-opening document option for Macs, > and I believe something similar for Windows, but Acrobat is more > widely cross-platform, there are readers for Mac, Windows, Unix, > even a program that will process PDF on the Amiga! (Ghostscript) Are you thinking PDF or PS? PDF is (AFAIK) a proprietary format, PS is not. (Not that I can do PS anyway, because the WIN95 version of Ghostscript isn't working well on my computer, but...) Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 01:55:38 -0500 From: bruce dykes Subject: IN> More Metaphor >Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:40:27 -0500 >From: Neel Krishnaswami >Subject: IN> Governing Metaphors for IN >- ---- >Angels and demons commonly compare Creation to a symphony to explain >the nature of reality and their position in it. God's plan is likened >to a great musical masterpiece (among angels, anyway) and each soul >in the universe is an instrument in the symphony played by the soul's >will. If every soul plays the part assigned to it, then God's Will is >fulfilled, and the great music fills the ears of all the players. > Funny, my take on that is inverted...Celestials are *instruments*, while humans are the notes. God can certainly arrange the notes as He sees fit, but the idea is for the notes themselves to learn to arrange themselves harmoniously. Instruments without a score are an improvisational jazz combo (hmmm, IN Buddhism? 8-), not a symphony, but a harmonious score can sound good no matter what instruments perform it (within limits of course). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 02:38:24 -0500 From: bruce dykes Subject: IN> more web rpg resources Wow, two more great (apparently) underused rpg resource sites: http://www.phoenyx.net/ -- a free pbem listserver http://www.rpg.net/ -- great GM resource section, humor section Bruce, Impudite Captain of Crosslicensing ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 01:00:41 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Is there and In Nomine APA? OK, what the devil is an APA? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:02:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Planaria (flatworms) > > I'm stepping out of the on-topic protection ring; okay. I don't know if > you have ever played Werewolf, but this is also where the main portion of > my base disagreements come from. Many of my players in that game work > toward having litter upon litter. I believe in the ST's guide, the advice it gives is that female wolves start running away from male Garou with such tendencies. And it could well damage wolfpacks to have all the female members pregnant all the time, plus it'll piss off the other male wolves. Which is not a good thing. It's not really much of a tactic for female Garou, for obvious reasons. And as for impregnating lots of human females, well, there is such a thing as birth control. And they also have free will, even Kinfolk. Isn't getting a bad reputation with Kinfolk something you lose Renown for? Besides, if your players are really into breeding the master race, you should let them go for it. Let them dig themselves into their moral graves. Display a couple of BSDs with similar attitudes, and maybe one of them will ponder. Maybe none of them will, but that's their loss, not yours. And in any event, unless your games tend to have 20 year chronicle length, they're not going to get much use out of their descendants, who will also show minds of their own. And the Apocalypse may well come sooner than that. They are supposed to be the last days after all. From this, spawns a whole debate on the > genetics involved in creating said litter. Hence, game time is eaten away > by, "My shadow lord got together with the kinfolk of a get of Fenris. What > do we get? A homid? Well, we're going to try again." > Assuming the kinfolk is a wolf, you should get a wolf. Assuming it's a human, you should get a homid. Supernatural influence isn't supposed to be completely obvious in the WOD, as it would be if humans were giving birth to wolves. And tribe isn't exactly genetics-based. Consider the fact that most Stargazers are converts from other tribes. > They're never happy with the result. So, I just say no. > Hmm...I think letting them be unhappy is much better than saying no. But the Ritemaster is a great mechanic for saying no. (S)he can always say there are no more Kin-fetches in stock. Or make it compulsory for them to play metis. :) > Also, I don't like angels and demons being anthropomorphized. They aren't > human. The more human characteristics that you give them, the more that it > seems that we are just playing a super hero game. I already have enough > super hero games to last me a number of good years. I want to play a game > that has beings that are outside the human scope. > I'm not sure about this, myself. But I think I prefer the idea that angels and demons _can_ be very human, or very inhuman, and that this creates a gap between those who have dealt with humanity frequently and those who haven't. Division is fun. But they're going to be seperated from humanity no matter what happens, by such things as dissonance requirements, interaction with their Superiors, and inability to _really_ sleep (their mind just heads off, consciously, to the Marches) and to reproduce with humans. They can never be fully human, ever. > I just can accept the idea that allowing angels and demons to procreate > unaided is a positive aspect to the game. > As long as they have to give up Forces to do so, it isn't affecting game balance much. And the canon game system doesn't allow them to procreate unaided. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:42:08 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> IN played with the safety off At 13:59 16/02/98 +0000, you wrote: >> ** grin ** >> >> So all we need to do is find one more person and we can form a >> threeso^D^D^D^D^ triad! >> >You'll take me, right? (Now there's a leading question) Of course we will take you, and on behalf of the clerks of court, I'd like to thank you for volunteering. Lets start in hospitality room 101. There will follow a short psychometric test to determine your suitability for the job. Answer the questions as quickly and accurately as you can. 1. What do you consider to be fair and just punishments for the following crimes: a) Acts of mass terrorism b) Not returning library books on time c) Tax evasion d) Walking on the grass where there is a legible sign reading 'Do not walk on the grass' e) Misquoting from the main rulebook f) Charging gross call-out charges, if you are a plumber g) Wearing flared trousers 2. Can justice be done if the laws of the land are unjust? Discuss. 3. Can you: a) Drive? b) Pick locks? c) Put on a convincingly intimidating voice? jo, in selection mode - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:21:54 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine stereotypes > The Lilim, on the other hand, shows up and spends a few days doing > nothing more than listen sympathetically to Mr. Standing when he talks > about how hard it is for him to watch his wife suffer -- collecting > a Geas/2 each time. Then she pools the little Geases and invokes > a Geas/6: murder your wife with a blunt spoon and don't show her the > slightest bit of remorse or sympathy when you do it. I actually have a story on the PILE (oh, how I doth worship the PILE) in this vein... I just need 30 hour days or some way to leave my job for a week. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:58:50 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Tethers for Janus Walter Milliken wrote: > The only real problem with it [the top of Mt. Washington] is that > it's nearly impossible to get there in winter... at least if you're > a mortal. But people go climbing about the lower slopes of Mt. Washington at all manner of tom-fool times of the year, passing each other and waving cheerily, or occasionally anxiously leading teams of rescue dogs. If you're a celestial, you certainly won't need the rescue dogs, and no one will notice that some of the climbers and descenders are taking one-way trips. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:12:28 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> IN played with the safety off > >> > >You'll take me, right? > > (Now there's a leading question) > I can but try. > Of course we will take you, and on behalf of the clerks of court, I'd like > to thank you for volunteering. Lets start in hospitality room 101. > What is a fair and just punishment for cheap literary references? > There will follow a short psychometric test to determine your suitability > for the job. Answer the questions as quickly and accurately as you can. > Is that a command or a request? > 1. What do you consider to be fair and just punishments for the following > crimes: > a) Acts of mass terrorism Wholesale retaliation, with an exact casualty match. > b) Not returning library books on time Impounding of privately held books, of a value and for a period equivalent to the delay, with additional penalties levied for failing to return those books voluntarily at all. > c) Tax evasion Death, with a number of additional casualties selected from the offender's family, friends and acquaintances equivalent to the number of hospital patients who could have been saved had that tax been paid, in areas of health expenditure where there is a lack of funding, starting with the least expensive treatments first (round fractions down). > d) Walking on the grass where there is a legible sign reading 'Do not walk > on the grass' Confiscation of socks and shoes, thus deterring the criminal from leaving the house in future. > e) Misquoting from the main rulebook A three-hour lecture, or, if interactive criticism may not be levied, a carefully prepared rebuttal, one hour in the drafting. > f) Charging gross call-out charges, if you are a plumber Define gross. > g) Wearing flared trousers The opprobrium of all right-thinking people. > > 2. Can justice be done if the laws of the land are unjust? Discuss. > Yes, though not necessarily through legal methods. > 3. Can you: > a) Drive? No. > b) Pick locks? Certainly not. Do you take me for a lawbreaker? > c) Put on a convincingly intimidating voice? > > In addition to an intimidating voice, I have an intimidating beard and an ability to make unconvincing but terrifying threats. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:47:14 -0600 From: "Micah T.J. Jackson" Subject: Re: IN> Graphics >At 2:00 AM +0000 2/16/98, Steve Jessop wrote: >>Apologies for a possibly-daft question, but does anyone know where I can >>get a graphic of the cross on the front of the hardback editions of IN? > > Actually, I don't know. You might want to try sjgames@io.com >or some other useful address at their website... >(poke around http://www.sjgames.com ) > >Be aware that the In Nomine cross is going to be, very likely, >copyright or TM or something them, so using it for anything but >your own personal use is Not A Good Thing. Well, this would be a good time for me to rise up and give a little bit of "OFFICIAL INFORMATION." Firstly, let me say that Steve Jackson Games loves its fans very much and we want to support them in any way that we can (which doesn't damage our ability to bring out the games they like.) Toward that end, we've constructed an online policy that talks about using our copyrights and trademarks and the like, on webpages, and fan efforts of all kinds. You will find that poilicy here: http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html. Check it out. You'll find that the "broken cross" graphic is both copyrighted and trademarked. But there are many circumstances where fans can use that graphic. As always, I am willing to answer questions from anyone who is unsure about using some of our stuff. And if there is a particular thing you need that you can't find, sometimes I can. My e-mail address is micahj@io.com. Keep up the good fan work! We at Steve Jackson Games enjoy it, too. <--Micah. __________ __________ Micah T.J. Jackson micahj@io.com Director of Licensing and New Media P.O. Box 18957 Steve Jackson Games Austin, Texas 78760 http://www.sjgames.com/ (512) 447-7866 __________ __________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:01:28 -0000 From: "Craw Wurm" Subject: Re: IN> Innocence Attunements (was Re: The Death of Yves) > On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Casca wrote: > Righteous Indignation (Based on Laurence's Blade Blessing, from NM) > --------- ----------- > > When the bearer of this attunement observes, or learns of, a betrayal or > corruption of innocence, they can activate this attunement for 2 essence. > For one encounter with the guilty party, all of the angel's attacks are at > +2 power, including by magical means, and celestial combat. The encounter > affected is the current one if the crime is directly observed, or the next > one if indirectly heard about. > > They can also automatically follow the guilty party if they leave the > Corporeal plane. Does this mean that by researching into someone's past, you could accumulate the power and wipe them out with a tap on the shoulder? Also, does the bonus stay if the guilty party repents or makes amends? Craw Wurm > Steve. Former Impudite of Kobal, apparently now redeemed as Mercurian of > Lovely Fluffy Things. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:48:46 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Hitler, a latter day Job Kevin writes >So efficient that a factory owner whose products were of immense effort to >the war industry was allowed to wait around for years making dud shells. If you're referring to Oscar Schindler (and I presume that you are) I seem to recall having read somewhere that that was Hollywoods's take on things. You see, it was felt that sympathies for the Jewish people employed by Schindler might dwindle somewhat if the viewing public suddenly realised that "Hey! that means that those jews were making weapons to kill *our* boys!". As a consequence, the story was altered so that the warheads manufactured *were* duds. I can't remember the exact source that I read this (so maybe I should just shut up) but it does seem to me to be highly unlikely that the german authorites would overlook the fact that this factory was of absolutely no use. - -- Jules - Demon of Presumption. Today at least. jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 13:23 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine stereotypes [Frank Lazar:] > Now >you bring it up, I remember a tv series some years back about this >freelance PR type that had this hot car, went around helping people with >his standard payment a Favor that would be called in at a later date. In >fact to solve his current case, he'd frequently need to call in a Favor >from a previous client. The show was called "Stingray", which is what the car was, and the name the character operated under. He'd be a *very* good fit for a Lilim, most likely a "grey" Free Lilim, or a Bright (most likely of the Wind, since he didn't seem to stay in one place very long). He apparently had celestial-style ID -- anyone who tried to trace him turned up something intimidating, but the same story never came up twice. (In actuality, I think the implication was that he was some sort of independent CIA operative, or some other sort of spook-type. But celestial works for me....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #632 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.