From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Mar 9 21:10:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA11270 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 21:10:23 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA00303 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:45:45 -0600 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:45:45 -0600 Message-Id: <199803100245.UAA00303@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #670 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, March 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 670 In this digest: Re: IN> In Nomine` Site Re: IN> Cloned Lilim IN> Insight (Vignette) Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith Re: IN> Lilith Re: IN> IN INWO CotW #3 Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions Re: IN> IN INWO CotW #1 Re: IN> IN INWO CotW #3 Re: IN> "More, More!" he cries.. IN> Review: _Liber Reliquarum_ Re: IN> "More, More!" he cries.. IN> Re: God Canons? (Re: IN> The Hero's First Fall) Re: IN> "More, More!" he cries.. Re: IN> Review: _Liber Reliquarum_ Re: IN> God IN> {fluff] hellish physics... IN> Pursuit of a Word Re: IN> In Nomine` Site ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:32:42 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine` Site > > Ahem. The demon in the room has a DIFFERENT opinion on that whole 'Yeah, > > Dominic showed up, how COOL!' thing. Especially after said demon had > > accidently made some comment about tieing an Elohite to the bed on the > > phone - to said Elohite's Boss. Next time, I'll ask who it is before I > > start getting humorous. > > The Cherub in the room also had a different opinion on that one, > man. Especially after said Cherub had (like an UTTER FOOL) attuned to > said demon not two hours earlier. Is it MY fault you walked up to me and gave me a huge hug, after telling me that the flower-eating incident wouldn't brand me as a heretic for all eternity? NOOOOO. You almost ate dissonance, baby. :) > Chephirah is still in shock that she got out of THAT one without > collecting dissonance, oh yes... :) You worry about one point of dissonance. I worry about waking up next to my Heart, or worse. Same difference. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 16:46:16 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Cloned Lilim On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: For example in the APG, angelic characters are given new abilities that they have always had, but never quite realised before that they could use. If that had been suggested that a year ago my guess is that most would have cried 'WW at their worst!'. I have an easy explanation for those. Assume that the expanded resonance abilities have to be figured out by the angel or taught by an older angel. Anyone can do them, but they take practice. Younger angels haven't learned them yet because they are still learning how their resonance works, let alone the "tricks". Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:53:11 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Insight (Vignette) [Okay, this came *exclusively* from a comment in the APG about Jean not using a female vessel for centuries. And about Raphael being Elohite. It's a little what-if kind of thing. It also rather depends on what may be a more modern perception of a Word, but hey, it was fun to write.] Insight The little slave stumbled, and several scrolls fell out of her arms. The man began gathering them up while his teacher lectured the slave. One scroll, half-opened, caught the man's eye. He put the others down and opened the scroll more fully, reading. His eyes widened. "Of course! Of *course*! This explains *everything*!" Excited, he rolled up the scroll, grabbed the slave-girl by the shoulders to kiss her, and ran out of the room. The teacher ceased lecturing the slave, and both smiled in satisfaction. "Inspiration is nothing without knowledge," the girl murmured. "And knowledge is boring without the inspiration of how it may be used," the teacher replied, placing a hand on her shoulder that was more a gesture of friendship between equals, than of a relationship between master and slave. "The Symphony is enhanced by our friendship." The girl nodded, then looked thoughtful. Her eyes lit with an idea. Carefully, she said, "Do you think it would be enhanced by our joy, as well?" His words equally measured, the teacher replied, "That is a logical conclusion, from what we know. I think you are right." With great deliberation, the teacher bent a little as the girl went on tip-toes, and they brushed lips. Drawing apart, the girl said, "We have other duties here. Your bed-chamber, at sunset?" "A half-hour after -- I must talk to a Servitor, and it may take time." She nodded, and they turned and went their seperate ways, as necessity dictated. ** Days and years and centuries, smile meeting smile, Words dove-tailing and entwining, hand clasping hand, minds growing together, in comfortable familiarity, but always with something new to be learned or realized. ** The Archangel of Lightning did not groan, though it would have liked to. It opened its eyes and looked about. Servitors were gathered around the place where it hung in midair, at the Heart of its Cathedral. Trauma is most inefficient, it thought. "Is Legion slain?" "Yes, Lord Jean," said the Seraph nearest to it, but her thoughts were heavy with sadness. "Tell me who has been destroyed in truth," the Archangel instructed. The list was longer than Jean liked, but shorter than it might have been. The Seraph ended, took an unnecessary breath. Said, "And... Raphael." The Elohite paused a moment, examining the emotions the words produced. "How?" "I... I was not present. Servitors of War say that Raphael struck at Legion, just before the Shedite would have struck Michael a fatal blow, and that both Prince and Raphael were destroyed. Michael would have seen more." Was it necessary to know exactly how its old friend had died? Perhaps. Perhaps something had been lost in transit, confused. Even eyewitness accounts were unreliable. Jean strode from its Cathedral, seeking the Groves. Little of the story had been altered, it found. But there was an addition. "A remnant?" it asked, confirming. The Seraph Archangel nodded. "I believe so. I left him with one of Eli's Servitors." "A suitable choice. Thank you for the information." It nodded, and returned to its Cathedral. And there, it dismissed its Servitors from its presence, closed its eyes, and mourned. The Symphony had been lessened. For even Elohim may love in the specific, as well as the general, and even Archangels find joy together. And the Archangel of Lightning has not appeared in a female form for centuries, now. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:13:34 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Lilith > > > > It certainly makes characters less interesting in lots of ways. > > My way or the *poof* Now your a Lilim concept? > The latter. I tend to tack bizarre histories and Roles onto my characters as well. I'm just not happy if they don't have former mentors, fallen boyfriends, and the like. (I took that city in Gehenna where they have religion and made demons grow up there. My Habbalite of the War's history is so weird as a result*.) > You can make the interesting in both ways, actually. It's a matter of > point of view. I just am morally opposed to things being created fully > formed out of the air. (Morally? Well, not MORALLY. Just am.) > Oh, absolutely. You can get a lot of fun out of utterly clueless characters. Well, not clueless as such, but very different from humans, and quite ignorant of them. > On the other hand, I don't have too many clueless wide eyed Lilim, > either. Not that they don't exist, it's just that by the time anyone gets > to them, even the youngest has had some sort of education and > world experiences to get them started. Although the image of baby Lilim > having a baby Balseraph to play with has stuck in my head > quasi-permenantly. Be AFRAID! > That's cruel. The poor Balseraph will be Geased for its entire existence. > > I like small numbers of Lilim. Very small numbers. In my universe, I > believe Saminga has a grand total of two. Thousands of Shedim, though. > Two? Those are _tiny_ numbers. > > Nah. Beth posted one to the List recently. A Bright Lilim of Dominic. > She, of course, is being sucked into my game, but just imagine the > ANGST... > > "Sorry your Dad Fell. Here's a cookie." > > - Em *My abovementioned Habbalite would just find it funny. I can imagine her sitting in some cafe somewhere, saying to her fellow Celestials "Dominic will be really popular back home in Gehenna. They'll think he's the new Uriel, come down to save them." Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:28:25 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith At 3:06 PM -0500 3/9/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >> It occurs to me that, in your universe, you might want to kick canon >> a little more and make those Geas/4's, one month per month spent >> wandering around with fun biochemistry effects, not to mention >> having to go to the bathroom in the last trimester... (But Song >> of Celestial Motion to teleport the little dears out sounds like >> a good idea to me...) > >Yes, I have considered that change in the system, and it would probably >be fair and work out. Or making them Geas/5 for the last three >months just out of _spite_. :) > >Or say that the gestation period for a Lilim is nine weeks, instead of >nine months, but then that defeats the purpose of Lilith being >(quasi) human. Obviously this is part of the Biblical thing, where Eve has to labor to bring forth young, with work and sweat and stuff? Lilith, never having done any of that "let's wear clothing and lie to god and shift the blame" stuff, doesn't have all the problems... Maybe they hatch. Green eggs. Help. I think my mind is still crosseyed... >> >That, and when you're a PC and Dominic turns out to be your Dad... >> >> Oh. Oh *my*.... So *that's*... Oh. >> Em, you're twisted. I like you. > >*beam* I'm LOVED! (yup!) >... and no, I'm not redeeming. Shoo. We wouldn't want you to redeem, Em. I'd lose a Tuesday Servitor. >>>On the other hand, I don't have too many clueless wide eyed Lilim, >>>either. Not that they don't exist, it's just that by the time anyone gets >>>to them, even the youngest has had some sort of education and >>>world experiences to get them started. Although the image of baby Lilim >>>having a baby Balseraph to play with has stuck in my head >>>quasi-permenantly. Be AFRAID! >> >>I thought it was little cuddly teddy-Djinn who lie around and let >>the baby Lilim pet them and cuddle them and dress them up for tea >>parties... >> >>And the Djinn *Need* all that attention, so... "Oh, look! How sweet! >>she's got her first Geas!" > >But I liked the Baby Bal! It was such a goofy concept, and it was so >cute... Okay, so you have baby Bals, baby Djinn, maybe even a baby Impudite or three so they can practice their social skills. But probably no baby Calabim and *definitely* no baby Shedim! "It followed me home, sis!" "NO! It's dripping on the carpet! They can't be housebroken!" >Yes, it was little cuddly teddy-Djinn who allow themselves to be cuddled >by little Lilim who are just learning how to geas. Since Djunn need all >that attenion to those they have attuned to, it worked out well. >And sort of sick and twisted. But well. We like sick and twisted, remember? >>(Me, I favor a "time consuming work of art", with a few other tricks... >>But Em's version has much to reccomend it.) > >True. It depends on if one sees Lilith as sort of a mirror to Eli, the >Creator of Life, the Master of the Golem and she who creates Lilim in her >own image, or if she is more of a human, who is living the eternal Human >life and never lost the gifts given to her by God. >As I have said, both views have merit. Or some weird amalgam of both... >>At 10:40 AM -0500 3/9/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >>>> I'll say, especially since the number of parents is arbitrary (so >>>> long as there is one Superior) and there are no sexes, but there >>>> *are* fourteen or so "species" or "breeding strains" (bands and >>>> choirs) to consider. >>> >>>Woo hoo! Confusion abounds! Luckily, there are no cross-breeds. Either >>>you are of that Band/Choir, or you aren't. >> >>(Though you can "cross-breed" with different Band/Choirs, in official >>canon (not in Em's, IIRC? Unless you're a Lilim..). But it comes out >>as *one* Band/Choir, not a mixture of 2-14!) > >No no no, you can interbreed. You just don't get a cross breed, ie, a >Mix. You don't get a half Impudite and half Djinn. You either get an >Impudite or a Djinn. And Lilim can never produce Lilim. You can interbreed? But what about the Shedim breeding vats?! Don't tell me you could drop some poor Servitor into the middle of one of those in your universe, and make it *breed* with them... Well, tell me if you want. But that's sicker than what I've been doing lately. >>>> Bad genealogists wind up in Kronos' record room, where they are >>>> set to composing the family trees of Heaven and Hell. >>> >>>And they're only allowed to use old DOS-based Freeware apps to do the >>>databases, they don't get access to the Social Security death index, >>>and they have to scan in pictures with a hand scanner from the early 80's. >>>:) >> >>Bah! They have to use inkwells and parchment, and trace the pictures >>with tracing paper! *Thick* tracing paper! > >I don't think you've ever used old DOS-based Freeware genealogy Apps. The >word 'Vapulan' come to mind. Um. Okay, you probably win. >Or an old hand scanner, for that matter. Yeeeek. Um. Hm. Does an old "attach it to your dot-matrix printer" Apple scanner count? At 2:17 PM -0600 3/9/98, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>At 8:54 AM -0500 3/9/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >>(Though you can "cross-breed" with different Band/Choirs, in official >>canon (not in Em's, IIRC? Unless you're a Lilim..). But it comes out >>as *one* Band/Choir, not a mixture of 2-14!) > >o/~ Lilim, don't let your gremlings grow up to be Balseraphs... }:-{D Redneck is also twisted. But I think it would scan better as "Balsers". - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:16:54 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> IN INWO CotW #3 On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Dan Ozdowski wrote: > According to Sam Kington: > > > > > Elohim of Gabriel > > Graphic: A scrawny lad smiling, as a large angelic figure is giving a > > bully-like child a swirly (for those unfamiliar with the term, it's > > plunging someone's head in a toilet and flushing) > > Text:They seek out those who enjoy causing emotional or psychological > > pain. If a player is threatening to attack someone (in your opinion), by > > spending their action token, they have ten seconds to commit to an > > attack (by spending a token). Otherwise, they cannot attack the > > threatened player for the rest of the turn! (Does not apply in a > > two-player game.) > > Alignments:Straight > > Power 2 Resistance 5 > > Control arrows: In: (T) Out: > > What happened on the alignments and attributes on this one? > All the others have "angelic" as an attribute but not this > one? Also, why does an Elohite have any alignments? I would > think that an elohite would especially NOT have alignments > because they indicate a general bias in behavioral trends. > Although, I guess you could have "dissonant angel of" cards > too... Alex forgot his Angelics on that group...I added 'em as I archived 'em, so that's taken care of. I completely overlooked the alignment, though! You're right...Elohim should never have alignments (unless Government or Corporate is especially appropriate--even then, only when it's absolutely necessary). They are equally comfortable being straight, weird, conservative, liberal, etc....consider it slashed out. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:22:33 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Slaughter Humans & Disonant Actions On Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 04:28:23PM +0000, Steve Jessop wrote: > > A possible get-out that I see is to say that it is not dissonant for the > highest-ranked angel present, if a successful 'tactics' roll indicates > that the best chance for victory lies in retreat, to do that, and to order > others to do so. > I think that the way it works is that the highest ranking angel is given discretion to order a retreat, and an order giving them discretion would, IMO, prevent them taking Dissonance. Of course, that angel will then have to explain to Michael why they retreated, which they're not going to be able to get away with if they didn't have a good reason. (It's worse for Baal's troops in some ways because convincing Balseraphs of something can be somewhat difficult.) As for falling back and counterattacking, I reckon if the maneuvre was planned, there's no dissonance even for failure, but if it was unplanned, then they get dissonance which is removed when they _successfully_ counterattack. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:22:17 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> IN INWO CotW #1 On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Malakim of Eli > >Graphic: A well-built, scruffy man holding an entire urban gang at bay > >with a banana, held threateningly. > >Quote:"Oh my god, he just peeled it! Now he's got *two* weapons!" > > annoying the cat and being glad that she doesn't work in a cubical> Glad you liked it. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:36:39 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> IN INWO CotW #3 > Actually, Elohim *are* allowed to have biases -- if #1: they do > not change the Symphony for the Elohite's selfish whim (the > red boxers or the green ones today? Ah, I like red, whatever.), > > or #2: the bias is because of their Word and/or that of their > Superior. They see the universe through Word-colored glasses. > An Elohite of War will react differently to a situation than > an Elohite of Flowers... > I think it's finally occured to me what the Elohim are about. Idealism. Elohim have to serve Heaven's cause purely, but obviously there are many ways to serve that cause, and since they can't serve in all those ways at once, there's nothing wrong with them focusing on one particular aspect. And it explains the Habbalah perfectly as well. Because Habbalah still feel within themselves the need to serve a cause, so even after they've pushed themselves away from the cause they originally served, they convince themselves that they're either serving that cause as they should serve it, or that they have found a better cause. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "as for their relations with others, that is a long story, but it can be expressed shortly and clearly by saying that of all people we know the Spartans are most conspicuous for believing that what they like doing is honourable and what suits their interests is just." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 17:35:02 -0500 From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: IN> "More, More!" he cries.. Pete Overton wrote: > Speaking of Millennium, has anyone played a game with their > take on angels? Pretty interesting, I thought. It's for a > REALLY dark IN game, though, in which the angels find it almost > insufferably painful to be on Earth proper due to the nature of > humanity and the world they have created, and I would assume > that higher angels might not be able to manifest at all, so > painful would it be. As an alternative to this idea (which is nice), it might be that the manifestation of angels on earth causes disruption to the symphony in different ways. Odd happenings, disasters, people on the edge going insane, that sort of thing. It would enhance the tragedy of the above suggestion if a Mercurian knew that every time he took flesh, the ripples spreading from that event caused madness and death; that no matter how many people where helped, more would die as a result. It would certainly mean that Soldiers would take a higher role in the the War. The manifestation of ArchAngels would become something desperately to be avoided, rare cataclysms on the order of Krakatoa or Chernobyl. Doctor TOC - -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" "The pen is mightier than the sword...especially when shot from a high powered air-rifle" UIN # 4814586 URL: http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 18:10:19 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Review: _Liber Reliquarum_ >I didn't think Neel was asking for help with non-canonical campaigns, but rather for help within the range of flavors described in the IN core book -- Dark, Cinematic, Comic, etc.< Yes, I should have been more clear. There is a certain "flavor" that the In Nomine writers tend to assume as the baseline; "canon" flavor if you will. Not a great term, because you can run the In Nomine universe as is, using Dark, Cinematic or Silly tones -- but what gets published tends to be aimed at the median. Personally, I would like to see more variation, but too much variation tends to get looked at with a jaundiced eye. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 18:10:54 -0500 From: Walter Plageman Subject: Re: IN> "More, More!" he cries.. Doctor TOC wrote: > Pete Overton wrote: > > Speaking of Millennium, has anyone played a game with their > > take on angels? Pretty interesting, I thought. It's for a > > REALLY dark IN game, though, in which the angels find it almost > > insufferably painful to be on Earth proper due to the nature of > > humanity and the world they have created, and I would assume > > that higher angels might not be able to manifest at all, so > > painful would it be. > > As an alternative to this idea (which is nice), it might be that the > manifestation of angels on earth causes disruption to the symphony in > different ways. Odd happenings, disasters, people on the edge going > insane, that sort of thing. It would enhance the tragedy of the above > suggestion if a Mercurian knew that every time he took flesh, the > ripples spreading from that event caused madness and death; that no > matter how many people where helped, more would die as a result. It > would certainly mean that Soldiers would take a higher role in the the > War. The manifestation of ArchAngels would become something desperately > to be avoided, rare cataclysms on the order of Krakatoa or Chernobyl. > I think that is a good idea, for one thing I think that soldiers should play a bigger part in IN, they have a fairly minor role. > Doctor TOC > -- > The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" > "The pen is mightier than the sword...especially when shot from a high > powered air-rifle" > UIN # 4814586 > URL: http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 23:16:02 +0000 From: "Ad." Subject: IN> Re: God > From: > Don't worry. It'll settle down after the first few hundred reach your > mailbox. I hope so. Oh God, I hope so. > > So here's an idea on God: > > God is not not the leader of the angels, God is the Universe. > > The angels claim to serve God, because they work for the benefit of the > > Symphony at large, they work towrards whatever their idea of the Universe > > is. They seek to impose this idea on the Universe and hence change God. > > The demons wish to change God for their own purposes. Each demon tries to > > change the symphony and hence God to their own selfish ideal for their own > > purposes. > > Does God have consciousness in this model? (Imagine, an atheist In > Nomine.) Hmm...I see farther down in the post that he doesn't, exactly. I like to think hive mind, the collective mind of all living things in the symphony. A mind which the demons have cut themselves off from. In exchange for their personal symphonies. > > Angelic victory is the defeat of the demons and the garauntee > > that the symphony will always represent selfless ideals, the essense of > > the Infernal victory is the Fall of the Symphony and hence the Fall of > > God. > > Or it splits apart into lots of seperate universes which have no > connection with each other, and then we start playing Mage. Possibly, though I doubt it, I reckon Lucifer could keep enough control top stop things getting THAT bad. > > In a sense the Ethereals are right, the angels in defeating the Pagan Gods > > through Uriel's (may he burn in Hell) Crusade ended the strong influence > > of the pagans on the symphony and hence changed the nature of God. > > God can manifest in reality (in fact every creature is merely a > > manifestation of God), but god has no single conciousness seperate from > > these manifestations. (I'm thinking a hive mind which Malphas is > > manipulating :) ) > > So who was it put Laurence in charge of the Armies of "God" and recalled > Uriel? Yves? Dominic? God / The Symphony - probably best to think of it as a temporary manifestation. And I 'm betting there are several Yves type beings helping out in Uriel's Fascist Dictatorship (The Higher Heavens) :) > I shudder to think about the fact that he's my GM and I knew absolutely > nothing about this stuff that was in his head. There is much you do not know. And I HAVE to escape a simple christian style, white bearded God. > From: Andrew Frades > Ad. wrote: > > [rather good sized snip including a description of victory conditions > for Angels/Demons] > > > Did that make any sense? > > Certainly, you have a possible idea that fits in fairly well with real > world religion. One thing you may want to think about is a reason as to > why, if the Angel's victory condition is the death/destruction of all > the Demons, why didn't they do it ages ago, immediately after the Fall > when the Angels outnumbered the Demons two to one? Or even at some > later date before the Demons grew to the immense organization they are > now? I didn't say death or destruction, I said defeat. The most important part of this protecting humans from infernal influences. The world would suffer much collateral damage in any attempt to obliterate every last demon. Also, there was much division following the fall as many angels (in particular Novalis) sought to make peace with the demons. A full scale attack, could have led to further disertions, or a second split. Not fallen this time - but kinda civil war. Bright victory means gaining control on earth, guiding humanity and gaining victory through the strength of angelic words. Actually, I don't think an exact nature of God effects these issues, as I doubt anyone except possibly Yves even begins to understand God anyway. The angels follow similiar tactics as they would anyway, and discuss philosophy some other time. > There needs to be a reason in game, even if only you know it. In my > opinion a stronger story can be writ if the Angelic victory condition is > a bit different, perhaps along the lines of redeeming all the Demons > and/or teaching them the error of their ways and healing the Symphony. > Just an idea. I agree - though I reckon large scale redemption is very far fetched. > For the record, welcome to the list. Which record? Thanks. Adam, Ofanite of Last Minute Player Recruitment. http://homepage.tinet.ie/~kellys/In_Nomine/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 18:15:34 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Canons? (Re: IN> The Hero's First Fall) >He heard me rant about the Kyrio stuff in the APG. *Boy* did he hear me rant... (I waffle some about the "know how to take care of your hosts" one -- I can almost see that, since their dissonance is so dependant on that -- but the other one.... NIMG! [Not In My Game])< And I don't use most of the new resonance abilities for angels. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 18:27:41 -0500 From: Pete Overton Subject: Re: IN> "More, More!" he cries.. Hey Doc, >As an alternative to this idea (which is nice), it might be that the >manifestation of angels on earth causes disruption to the symphony in >different ways. Odd happenings, disasters, people on the edge going >insane, that sort of thing. It would enhance the tragedy of the above Yep. I agree completely. I had not bothered to come up with a system for it since I write my stories a step or two above Millennium's dark setting, but not by much. :) But it would certainly be interesting for Angel PCs. In the episode an attack on a "demon" by the angel seemed to cause him physical pain, although whether that was because of manifestation problems or because he had arc lightning coming out of his hands, I don't know. ::smile:: >suggestion if a Mercurian knew that every time he took flesh, the >ripples spreading from that event caused madness and death; that no >matter how many people where helped, more would die as a result. It THAT sounds like something from one of my games. :) >would certainly mean that Soldiers would take a higher role in the the >War. The manifestation of ArchAngels would become something desperately >to be avoided, rare cataclysms on the order of Krakatoa or Chernobyl. Yeah. I think for people who wanted a slightly lesser powered game, it would work nicely since Angels would become rare and more valued and as you said, Soldiers would probably take center stage, which admittedly would be good role-playing wise, but then again, chances are the game was purchased to play an angel (or demon, perish the thought ::smile::). It's something to think about, especially for those who are playing really dark IN games. Conversely, the same could be said for really light games vis-a-vis demons. The Dark Victory/Bright Victory things I keep hearing about (anyone got a source on these?) sound like they could incorporate that if they wanted to be really sick and twisted... :) Pete >Doctor TOC >-- >The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" >"The pen is mightier than the sword...especially when shot from a high >powered air-rifle" >UIN # 4814586 >URL: http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 18:37:26 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Review: _Liber Reliquarum_ > >I didn't think Neel was asking for help with non-canonical campaigns, > but rather for help within the range of flavors described in the > IN core book -- Dark, Cinematic, Comic, etc.< > Yes, I should have been more clear. There is a certain "flavor" that the In > Nomine writers tend to assume as the baseline; "canon" flavor if you will. > Not a great term, because you can run the In Nomine universe as is, using > Dark, Cinematic or Silly tones -- but what gets published tends to be aimed > at the median. Personally, I would like to see more variation, but too much > variation tends to get looked at with a jaundiced eye. This is very true - the game needs a baseline, standard flavor, and not everyone is going to agree. I mean, what would CoC (a really _good_ game) be if it occasionally had 'Silly' overtones? I mean, you can make stuffed Shub-Niggoroths, but the point of the game IS to go insane or die. The thing with catering to the median is you end up courting the evil 'bland'. By trying to make everyone happy, you don't have your own style. Me, I think In Nomine has an Official "In Nomine" flavor. This seems to include everything from fluffy Mercurians to drippy Shedim. The trick is to be dark and nasty when it's time to be dark and nasty, to be light when it's time to be light, and know when the right times are. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 21:10:23 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> God At 01:45 PM 9/03/98 +0000, you wrote: >Okay, >So, i joined the list as you do, a couple of days ago and I'm never going >to have time to read it all! AGHH! > >So here's an idea on God: >God is not not the leader of the angels, God is the Universe. >The angels claim to serve God, because they work for the benefit of the >Symphony at large, they work towrards whatever their idea of the Universe >is. They seek to impose this idea on the Universe and hence change God. >The demons wish to change God for their own purposes. Each demon tries to >change the symphony and hence God to their own selfish ideal for their own >purposes. Angelic victory is the defeat of the demons and the garauntee >that the symphony will always represent selfless ideals, the essense of >the Infernal victory is the Fall of the Symphony and hence the Fall of >God. >In a sense the Ethereals are right, the angels in defeating the Pagan Gods >through Uriel's (may he burn in Hell) Crusade ended the strong influence >of the pagans on the symphony and hence changed the nature of God. >God can manifest in reality (in fact every creature is merely a >manifestation of God), but god has no single conciousness seperate from >these manifestations. (I'm thinking a hive mind which Malphas is >manipulating :) ) >Some manifestations have more access to this hive mind than others. I >doubt Goldfish have a big link to the symphony, but Yves, Kronos, Eli and >the forces that curse / help the PC's on that 111 are all aspects of God's >personality in a very direct way. >To conclude, God can't intervene in Armeggedan any more than the symphony >itself is likely to. > >Did that make any sense? > >Adam Kelly, >Ofanim of Last Minute Player Recruitment. >http://homepage.tinet.ie/~kellys/ > >PS: What is all this talk about cannons, is every planning to turn In >Nomine into somesort of naval war game? ;) > >Actually it did, it made a lot of sense, especially if you're read Heaven and Hell, where God is described as the Symphony, and is also described as having a Destiny and Fate, ie Yves and Kronos. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 19:09:46 -0500 From: bruce dykes Subject: IN> {fluff] hellish physics... Gee, lookee what popped up on the SKEPTIC list: > >Physics Story > > > >A thermodynamics professor had written a take home exam for her > graduate > >students. It had one question: > > > >"Is hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with a proof." > > > >Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or > >some variant. One student, however wrote the following: > > > >First, we postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass. > > > >If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate > >are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think > >that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not > >leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. > > > >As for souls entering hell, lets look at the different religions that > >exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are > >not a member of their religion, you will go to hell. Since there are > >more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than > >one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to hell. > > > >With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of > >souls in hell to increase exponentially. > > > >Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law > states > >that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the > same, > >the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant. > > > >So, if hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls > >enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase > >until all hell breaks loose. > > > >Of course, if hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of > >souls in hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until hell > >freezes over. > > > >It was not revealed what grade the student got. > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 19:56:28 -0500 From: bruce dykes Subject: IN> Pursuit of a Word >What I'm really interested in is other people's thoughts on how I can >make the progression toward Adrian's Word an interesting one, without it >taking over the entire campaign. I would be interested in hearing about >other campaigns where there are player characters in pursuit of a Word >and how it was handled or is being handled. >Andrew Don't have a campaign going yet, but here's how I'd work it... Since you don't want it to dominate the campaign, I wouldn't have anybody else competing for the Word...I don't think that Word would even occur to a demon, Prince or no. If you were to have another angel competing for the Word, I'd make it a servitor of Christpher. Now, the next step is to consider what the other AAs and DPs think of an angel acheiving that Word, and if/how they would find out about it, and what steps they'll take in response to it. This would all depend on the celestial politics of your campaign world. I can easily see Haagenti being opposed to the Word, how would he find out about it? how strong is Haagenti in your world? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 21:34:13 -0500 (EST) From: Doubting Eric Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine` Site On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > Ahem. The demon in the room has a DIFFERENT opinion on that whole 'Yeah, > > > Dominic showed up, how COOL!' thing. Especially after said demon had > > > accidently made some comment about tieing an Elohite to the bed on the > > > phone - to said Elohite's Boss. Next time, I'll ask who it is before I > > > start getting humorous. > > The Cherub in the room also had a different opinion on that one, > > man. Especially after said Cherub had (like an UTTER FOOL) attuned to > > said demon not two hours earlier. > Is it MY fault you walked up to me and gave me a huge hug, after telling > me that the flower-eating incident wouldn't brand me as a heretic for all > eternity? NOOOOO. > You almost ate dissonance, baby. :) > > Chephirah is still in shock that she got out of THAT one without > > collecting dissonance, oh yes... :) > You worry about one point of dissonance. I worry about waking up next to > my Heart, or worse. Same difference. :) > - Em Feh. We agreed. Gamers come for you, I put a bullet in your head. Because we all know, the Game just doesn't play Fair. Eric (Pat, Elohite of Judgement) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #670 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.