From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri May 8 10:31:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19056 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:31:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA14528 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:21:57 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:21:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199805081521.KAA14528@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #765 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, May 8 1998 Volume 01 : Number 765 In this digest: IN> Mideival Fluff Re: IN> Writing Canon IN> Words, and WHY YOU CAN'T CHANGE THEM Re: IN> Writing Canon Re: IN> Words, and WHY YOU CAN'T CHANGE THEM IN> Copying Replies (was Writing Canon) IN> Djinn - hurting their attunements Re: IN> Supergirl: Kara Ofanim of Gabriel IN> Kyiel Re: IN> Fluff! (Re: Writing Canon) Re: IN> Michael's Dissonance Conditions (Re: Angels and Dicey Words) Re: IN> In Nomine character maximums Re: IN> Baal and Michael IN> Re: IN- Writing Canon Re: IN> Writing Canon Re: IN> Gorethiel, Demon of BFGs Re: IN> djinn and healing Re: IN> Fluff: Good Views (Re: Demon Prince Audition) Re: IN> Need help with pdf character sheet fonts. IN> Fixes for the IN "ceiling" Re: IN> In Nomine character maximums Re: IN> A Question Re: IN> Two NPCS for your perusal Re: IN> In Nomine character maximums Re: IN> In Nomine character maximums Re: IN> In Nomine character maximums IN> Djinn Re: IN> War, the Sword and the War Re: IN> Michael's Dissonance Conditions (Re: Angels and Dicey Words) SV: IN> In Nomine character maximums ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 03:21:11 -0800 From: Armand Subject: IN> Mideival Fluff >>I kept waiting for the addition of sapping, a technique brought around in >>the Dark Ages to "blow up" castles. A tunnel is dug under a castle wall, >>filled with pigs, and sealed. Give it a little time, and boom! I could >>see Gorethiel as a big guy in that field. > >Pigs? Is this some meaning of pig I'm not familliar with? I've heard of >sapping with kegs of gunpowder, or setting the tunnel supports on fire, but >pigs? > > Mark(Terribly confused...) Okay, if you put some pigs, Nature's best source of Methane, in a hole and seal it, all the pressure has to go somewhere, right? Well, that's the bases of the technique. My wife is the actual expert though. I'll get historical info on it from her if she still has the paper she wrote on seige techniques. Armand PS I used Dark Ages originally 'cause I can't spell Mideival (picked a convention and I'm stickin' to it) No not pick awards there.. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 18:16:43 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Writing Canon At 05:15 PM 5/7/98 EDT, you wrote: >>Humor is tricky. Good, dry humor may be okay -- or we may think >>it comes out as lame. Accept this and don't feel bad if you >>submit humor and it gets rejected as campy. > >I'll note here that a bunch of my semi-humorous stuff for Liber >Reliquarum got dropped. So it goes.... Like the Blixoreth. (I think that's how it was spelled.) Sigh, I liked that thing... -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 18:31:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Venedam Subject: IN> Words, and WHY YOU CAN'T CHANGE THEM Ya know, I've only been checking the digest frequently for the last coupla months, and it's shocking how little some things change. Like the bit about changing your word, and how everyone in this list wants to do it. Just as a general overview: your are your word. This doesn't mean that Jean is made of lightning, or Kobal is nothing but hideous laughter. But your word shapes you, just as you shape your word. No angel would want to change her word. A few demons might, but hell, they're evil. You want a better word? make your word better. Everyone on this list, from the time IN came out, gave Novalis crap about being an Archangel. Her word was only flowers! but she managed to make the concept of flowers synonymous with peace, and thus increased here power(oddly, noone ever said Kobal shouldn't be a DP. I mean, dark humor? silly me, I'm a little more scared of factions or death) But everyone should take a lesson from Novalis' (and Jeans) example. Demon of bloody eyeballs? Decided to become word-bound a little too quickly. But bloody eyeballs becomes bllodshot eyeballs, which are due to lack of sleep, which is due to nightmares -okay, new contender to Beleth. Or something like that. Besides, angels should be above petty politics. Anyone who writes a game that says otherwise is gonna burn in hell :) Charlie V. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 May 98 19:06 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Writing Canon >Like the Blixoreth. (I think that's how it was spelled.) Sigh, I liked that >thing... B'lixteroth, I think it was, actually. I believe SJ nuked that one -- I'm pretty sure David had it in as an adventure seed at one point. Can't fit everything in, though, and it was decided late on that the existing relics from the core book needed to be in LR, so everything was in one place. I was willing to sacrifice some of mine for that, and so it was. (Actually, I'm not sure if that's why specific items of mine got cut -- SJ just didn't like some of them. Editors can be semi-arbitrary sometimes, as I mentioned before. But I'm reasonably happy with what did make it in, so I can't complain.) I'd like to get the LR outtakes into Pyramid one of these days. Need to poll Scott on it, I guess.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 19:39:45 -0400 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> Words, and WHY YOU CAN'T CHANGE THEM >Ya know, I've only been checking the digest frequently for the last coupla >months, and it's shocking how little some things change. Like the bit >about changing your word, and how everyone in this list wants to do it. > >Just as a general overview: your are your word. This doesn't mean that >Jean is made of lightning, or Kobal is nothing but hideous laughter. But >your word shapes you, just as you shape your word. No angel would want to >change her word. A few demons might, but hell, they're evil. But your word can be changed or removed. There is a demon NPC in Heaven & Hell who had his word removed. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 19:47:16 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Copying Replies (was Writing Canon) >>>PLEASE do not send attachments to the list.<<< Hey sport, while you're (rightfully) pointing out the sin of sending attachments to the list, how about not RESENDING attachments to the list in your reply either? For that matter, I notice quite a few new subscribers lately have gotten in the habit of copying the _entire_ text of the message to which they are replying, which has resulted in some list digests being over 50% reposts. People, it is not that difficult to scroll down to the bottom of your reply window and delete all but the few pertinent lines to which you are responding. Thanks. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 19:52:28 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Djinn - hurting their attunements >>>I don't know about the rest of you but I will not divorse a person who ordered an action from responsibility for that action. In other words, if a Djinn orders, asks, or gives a strong direct hint to hurt the object of his attunement then the demon will gain dissoance. This also means that the Djinn can not follow and be the pointer for a group of demons who intend to plaster the attunement as the demon knows what the others intend.<<< Nope, that's not correct. A Djinn cannot _directly_ cause his attunement harm. He suffers dissonance for his OWN actions, not those of others. If a Djinn tells someone else "Beat up my attunement," he isn't causing the attunement harm. (The person he says that to could refuse.) The limitations you're suggesting make Djinn more like Cherubim, with an obligation to _protect_ the objects of their attunement. Djinn are not Cherubim and are in no way protective. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 01:00:07 +0000 (GMT) From: "The blue eyes, the leather, some guys just like leather" Subject: Re: IN> Supergirl: Kara Ofanim of Gabriel >only things I would have changed ... >1. wrote her up as something more powerful than a starting character I wrote the character (well you know what I mean) as a kind of pc npc. A character that I, The GM, would play as if I was a player. Ie. not fudging dice rolls when it was more convient to do so etc. However if I was going to write it up as a full npc, I would at least up the celestial forces and stick will up to the maximum of 12, hence the unpossesable thing. I'd also up the levels of the songs etc. >2. not mention "supergirl" in the write up. I mentioned the supergirl because she's supergirl. but the pc's don'tknow anything. In my game, they have met Linda, and believe she is an ordinary mortal. They haven't even given her a second look. She hasn't done anything super and will refrain to do so in Lindas form, transforming to her "supergirl" form. I will however change my mind midstream. Kara considers herself Linda. Not supergirl. Others May call her that if they will, and she will answer to that to protect her identity. Grigory huh? could be. Gabriel bound her into that vesel so that noone could se her celestial form perhaps. would explain the three. ok. make it Kara: Grigori of Gabriel. Perhaps the wings of fire are the grigory of fire attunement as opposed to a numinous corpus. oh and when I say the pcs assume shes mortal, I mean to say, they haven't done or said anything to make me think they think anythings up. But who knows whats in the minds of those strange entities known as players Starsurfer. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 17:12:28 PDT From: "Chris Crowe" Subject: IN> Kyiel here's a demon that started out as a joke and turned into a big player IMC. Kyiel Rakashim of Greed, Captain of the Motherlode Deomon of Collectable Card Games Corporeal-- 3 Strength-- 5 Agility-- 7 Ethereal-- 5 Intelligence-- 10 Precison-- 10 Celestial-- 5 Will-- 12 Perception-- 8 Vessel-- human/4 Skills-- dodge/3, emote/3 ,fast talk/4, fighting/3, gambling/6, knowledge (card rarity and price)/6, lying/4, move silently/3, pick pocket/4, small weapon (knife)/3. Songs-- charm-ethereal/3, form-ethereal/4, motion-celestial/4, tongue/5, tail/5. Artifacts-- backpack- level 6 relic/reliquary, always full of books, boxes, and binders of a desired CCG. The collection is always quite valuable and has all the rarest cards in the set. Special rites-- defeat an opponent at a CCG (1 essence) and talk a person into spending money on a CCG (1 essence per $10 spent). Attunements-- Rakashim of Greed, Only the Best, Swipe. Rakashim are the fallen version of Hezashim, which are posted on my page. the Rakashim aren't up yet but are totally the same. Oh, and i always pronouce it Iv-Ess. sounds better to me. Krowe Malakim of Destiny, Angel of Redemption Lord of XAOZ "What good fortune for those in power, that people do not think." -- Adolf Hitler, 1889-1945 "Love is a dirty trick played upon us to achieve the continuation of the species." -- novelist W.Somerset Maugham, 1874-1965 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:06:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Fluff! (Re: Writing Canon) - ---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >What kind of Geases (is that the plural?) are being offered today? > > I don't know -- how many years of your life would you like to sign > away? I also accept souls. Okay, I think I have one lying around... > >Seriously, though...thanks for the advice. I didn't even have to ask! > >Woo hoo! > > Ah, but if it filled a Need.... };) Yah, the Need/Writing In Nomine Stuff at level 1,000! *whew!* Now THAT'S a Need! Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:57:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Dissonance Conditions (Re: Angels and Dicey Words) - ---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > If you've hashed it out ahead of time, and it's part of over-all > tactics, it's probably fine. But yes, it may be for the best that > Michael stepped down! Any volunteers to tell Michael to step down? I sure ain't going to tell him! Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 01:43:50 +0000 (GMT) From: "The blue eyes, the leather, some guys just like leather" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine character maximums I'm thinking of changing the costs in my game. skills cost the price of the level you wish to go to. with the exception of the first level. level 2 is 2 points level 3 3 etc. You also have to use your skills to increase it and the GM (dats me *grin*) says if you can increase it or not. new skills cost 5 points and you have to find someone who can teach you it. They must be at level 6 in that skill to be able to teach. songs cost twice the level and 10 points for a new song, likewise teachers must be maxed out in that song. my players haven't tried to buy any other type resources. charcter creation isn't changed, I'm assuming The archangel teaches their servitor (or creates them with skills and songs etct. included) Starsurfer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 18:08:33 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Baal and Michael Pee Kitty wrote: > > On Wed, 6 May 1998, Sean McCarthy wrote: > > > > > I'm not sure about that. The Game is defined as the contest between > > Heaven and Hell. > > No, The War is. The Game is the law by which the demons play. > (HH p.18) "For his loyalty, and in recognition of his skill as an investigator, Lucifer made Asmodeus Prince of the Game, the contest between the Heavenly Host and the forces of Hell." (HH p.20) "In addition to the complex strategies of the War, Asmodeus oversees all forms of the Game played by humans. ... While Baal may command the armies of Hell in the War, Asmodeus is the spy-master and strategist Baal relies on." These are the passages that helped shape my perceptions of Asmodeus and the Game. I do not see him as merely Dominic's opposite number. Think about it for a moment, though. The entire Rebellion, the War...it's all just a Game? Indeed, it is the expanded concept of his Word as including all mind games that makes me favor him. I felt he seemed rather two-dimensional in the core book, but now I realize that's probably the way he wants it to look... Sean (And of COURSE I don't work for Asmodeus.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 18:19:19 PDT From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Writing Canon >Can't fit everything in, though, and it was decided late on that the >existing relics from the core book needed to be in LR, so everything was >in one place. This was a great decision. As a GM, I really appreciate that I don't have to switch to the main rulebook to find out how much damage a fiery sword does. The only pity is that mundane weapons weren't included. A web-published list of (canon) mundane weapons would be keen... (hint hint) SurturZ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 23:20:32 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Writing Canon A > >And the Geas/6's don't hurt. > >--emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > >Okay geas me, although I'm warning you, as a Calabite the next drink I pour you may come in a broken glass :) Simon, Now heavily in debt > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 21:54:42 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Gorethiel, Demon of BFGs On Thu, 7 May 1998, MarkDEddy wrote: > >I kept waiting for the addition of sapping, a technique brought around in > >the Dark Ages to "blow up" castles. A tunnel is dug under a castle wall, > >filled with pigs, and sealed. Give it a little time, and boom! I could > >see Gorethiel as a big guy in that field. > > Pigs? Is this some meaning of pig I'm not familliar with? I've heard of > sapping with kegs of gunpowder, or setting the tunnel supports on fire, but > pigs? You seal the pigs in, and wait for them to die. Then they start to rot, building up a large quantity of methane. Then you toss a torch in and... BOOM! Richard "Mr. Uriel' Gant "We did that in the Purification Crusade, too. But we used unicorns." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 21:55:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Titus 3 11 Subject: Re: IN> djinn and healing On Thu, 7 May 1998, Graveyard Greg wrote: > > > > > > ---Titus 3 11 wrote: > > > Despite the aquisacions of fellow listers such as Graveyard Greg, I am > > still a member in good standing of my choir. The Malakim are well > aware, > > of how sweet and clean a talented demon can make Hell and its servants > > appear, and you are defintly a talented demon sir, serving a mighty > > Princess indeed. > > And dn't worry about your fellows, dissonant or not; if the Game > misses > > them, God will not; nor will his Virtues > > Enosh > > Malakite of Creation > > In service to Michael > > ( I swear) > > > > > > > I resemble that remark, Enosh... :) > Speaking of Falling, when if Fall of the Malakim going to be out? > Unless it is already out (crosses his fingers) > > Graveyard Greg > --who will keep a close eye on a certain Malakite...Because wasn't he > in Service to Dominic beforehand? Hmmmm > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > *coughs and looks embarrassed* uuuuhhh...no...that's uhhh...Vapula, yah vapula, messing with the digests....yeah... *scratches the back of his head and looks behind him* ahh i hear my superior calling...gotta go! Enosh Malkite of Creation Servitor of KoImean Micheal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 22:56:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Titus 3 11 Subject: Re: IN> Fluff: Good Views (Re: Demon Prince Audition) > But Malakim with Good Views do not need to act, certainly not. It > is part of their endearing charm, that they are honorable and > earnest, open and without guile. And have the cutest little backsides > in tight leather, which are just so pattable. And then they look > so startled when you do exactly that. That's because it's really startling!!! Malakim are such honorable beings because they have -no- idea how the real world works; while they dont have a "personal" symphony like a Demon does, they project what they think onto the symhony at large with relish (and guns). And while they are prepared for such thingsas demonic attack, renegade angels (or Outcast, if you prefer), or even (with training) some of the sneakier Lillim tricks; they just can't prepare for being patted on the bottom...extreme cases have bmeen recorded when a Malakite's vessel's head actually exploded from the shock of having his bottom patted ("he was later quoted as asaying "I can't believe i got patted on the bottom...I mean, I had my leather pants on and everything..." While not exactly in trauma, the poor guy is not quite active anymore). Anway Enosh Malakite of Creation In service to Micheal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:13:46 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Need help with pdf character sheet fonts. >I just downloaded the INPCANG.PDF and INPCDEM.PDF character sheet files >from the SJG resources page, and viewed them on an Acrobat Reader v2.1. >The background and layout look fabulous, but unfortunately the three >force headings, and the words 'Essence' and 'Dissonance' appear as black >dots. > >I get two warnings when opening the file. First "an unrecognized token >'gs' was found", then "Unable to find or create the font >'CKLBCL+Morpheus'. Some characters may not display or print correctly." > I didn't have a problem with that on Macintosh Acrobat 3.0.1 Are you using 2.x perhaps? I'll have to try it on a Windows system, but I suspect the problem you're having is with either your Acrobat installation, the AdobeMM fonts, or ATM itself. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:35:50 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: IN> Fixes for the IN "ceiling" >At 12:09 PM -0400 5/7/98, York H. Dobyns wrote: >>Elizabeth McCoy writes: >> >>>The In Nomine Line Editor (that's me) says: No characteristics >>>above 12. No Forces over 6. No skill-levels over 6. Anything >>>else, please check errata and then tell me about it if it's >>>not there, so I can put it there. >> >>Why? > >Because those are the rules. > >They were like that when I got here. > >Don't blame me. > >>Among other things, this imposes a hard limit on experience >>expenditures. If somebody is running a weekly campaign, even a minimal 1 >>pt-per-session award makes possible an 18-Force PC within less than 2 >>years. (Of course, IN hasn't been *out* for quite 2 years yet, has it?) > There are a couple of possible fixes. Assume the original rules were too generous,, many games follow the philosophy that the better you are, the harder it is to improve.... 1. Make Forces and Characteristics seperate purchases. I.E. Players have to buy 4 points of charateristics in a Force Realm and THEN spend the 10 points (or whatever) to actually add a Force. That alone should double the time given all other factors remain constant. 2. Vary the cost of a charateristic by the number of Forces in a realm. (For example to raise Intelligence at 4 Ethereal Forces would be twice to raise the score at 2 Ethereal marks.) The number of Forces in a realm would still be the same kind of attribute "cap" they are now. 3. Enable character points to be used to buy a Vessel for a Celestial in Limbo at triple or quadruple the normal "cost". 4. The description of Jordi's Savannah mentions a special ritual fire as the means by which Jordi grants attunements, Forces etc. and the rather final penalty for those who jump in uninvited. Make something similar a requirement for all celestials to gain a new Force. Training of characteristics for self-improvement is perfectly justifiable. It's also perfectly logical that the addition of a new Force is an act in the same order as the creation of the celestial in the first place. 5. Word Forces... When a celestial gains a Word, one of the requirements would be the attainment of at least 1 Word Force. The celestial would permanently sacrifice 1 Force to gain the first Word Force, 2 to gain the second, 4 to gain the third, etc.... The lost Forces (and characteristics associated with them, would be rebuilt with character points. 6. Save your butt maneuvers. Burn character points for rerolls (based on the use I've seen in Star Wars RPG) Summing up. There are loads of RPG's out there that really don't allow for Stat building beyond character creation at all, much less on the "bargain price" that InNominee provides. Amber Diceless Roleplaying is an exception, but that game is played on a metacosmic scale, and many campaigns and Gamemasters go to the point where the numbers are thrown away anyhow. Am I implementing these things? No, after all these are extreme alpha-version at the moment... merely mana for thought. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 06:13:37 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine character maximums At 01:43 08/05/98 +0000, you wrote: >I'm thinking of changing the costs in my game. > >skills cost the price of the level you wish to go to. with the exception of the first level. level 2 is 2 points level 3 3 etc. That's similar to the Ars Magica system, which seems to work quite well. I wonder if another possible solution is to give people more things to spend points on. Maybe once you have learned a song or skill to level 6, for the reasonable cost of another 6cp you are able to 'master' it, which would automatically give you a +2 to the CD if you used it alone, or the possibility to use it (at a large penalty, say -6) more than once simultaneously. (eg. A master of dodge could dodge 2 foes at once. A master of tactics could play several chess games at the same time, or accurately direct multiple combat sequences). Once you have mastered a song or skill, maybe you could spend a few cps to buy a character-specific finesse with it. This might not be something really powerful but would be fun for players to describe. Perhaps your suave Mercurian who has mastered the corporeal song of form wants a finesse so that as well as being impervious to harm, no external force will ever crease his jacket or muss his hair whilst the song is up. (This is the James Bond effect where you walk through a burning building and come out looking immaculate). I find these are the little things which seem to impress PCs when I'm describing how the NPCs do stuff. It doesn't have to be much -- just has to be something they don't (yet) know how to do. Following on from Neel's 'special FX' tricks, I think you could add tables of potential effects for characters with higher dice pools, which would require rolling at a huge penalty (-6 or greater), similar to some of the expanded choir/ band resonances. Because of the dice rolling, attributes are generally more worthwhile than skills, but I suspect that once people have atributes reasonably high, instead of wanting to max them they'll be trying to expand songs and skills to make better use of what they have. jo "In matters of grave importance, style, not sincerity, is the vital thing." - -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 23:30:51 -0500 From: "David C. Shadle" Subject: Re: IN> A Question > Umm, why is that? I don't recall a notice that states that the posted > material is the property of SJ Games, although it may have been in the > majordomo letter recieved at when I frist signed on. This strikes > me as an awful sneaky thing for SJG to do and I do not like it one > bit. Our postings should be our property, not SJG's. It was in the majordomo letter. The reason that they do it is for legal protection. The writers and publishers are afraid of being sued for plagerism. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 04:22:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Two NPCS for your perusal On Wed, 6 May 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > The In Nomine Line Editor (that's me) says: No characteristics > above 12. No Forces over 6. No skill-levels over 6. Anything > else, please check errata and then tell me about it if it's > not there, so I can put it there. Then how do you account for the power gap between powerful-but-still-in- PC-range Masters/Barons and AAs/DPs? What makes Ambassadors/Dukes/etc so special? Or are you saying there -is- no difference? In which case, I must ask the question "What is the quantifiable difference between being an AA/DP and merely a powerful Wordbound?" There -must- be one, or next you'll be telling me that AAs/DPs are bound by the same silly strictures. And if THAT happens, I'll dismiss everyone on staff at SJG as flipping loonies. We need a middle class to differentiate between the upper (Superiors) and lower (PCs). - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 19:49:26 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine character maximums Of course, you could avoid the whole question by not bothering with experience - - I generally don't. Since my games generally have a small scope and planned end-point, there's little point in bothering in the piddly little xp the players get. Experience points are really only neccessary if you're accepting the whole 'delayed gratification' thing that a lot (OK, almost all) RPGs focus on. If you enjoy the character you create, why the urge to make them different? (I've been thinking a lot about experience recently, after checking out a couple of level-based games and the 'power curve' of most RPGs. Look for the essay coming when I have time on my hands). - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia They may walk hand in hand Like lovers through the market square Selecting leathergoods, pretending that they just don't care They say all the boys are monsters, all the girls are whores SQUIRREL NUT ZIPPERS, "Plenty More" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:29:11 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine character maximums > Experience points are really only neccessary if you're accepting the whole > 'delayed gratification' thing that a lot (OK, almost all) RPGs focus on. If you > enjoy the character you create, why the urge to make them different? As it happens, I agree with this ;) It is nice to see characters learn and be changed by their experiences, but the xp system is a bit dodgy IMO. I feel a bit repetitive to keep giving Ars Magica mechanics as examples, but it has the only experience rules that I was really comfortable with, and that was mainly because the timescales were set up so that you could easily get through a game-year in one session. Your character could progress from newly released apprentice to archmage, but it would take a lot of game-years. The problem to me with a lot of RPGs that have very granular stats is that in a few _weeks_ of game-time, if PCs are very busy, they can get from starting-stats to demi-gods. That's OK in itself, except that the NPCs which were once a major threat are now an embarrassment and it tends to ruin my sense of disbelief in the world's consistency. (I'm sure this is not news to anyone but I thought I would say it anyway :) ). Not only that, but if you create a character that is supposed to be a relatively weak starting-character, then finding that you are suddenly very powerful is a bit ruinous to the concept -- yes, you can waste the points on useless skills but... I've found in practice that things work more smoothly if people create characters that they are happy with at game-start, and get given 'stuff' in place of actual xp so that the character can develop at a sane rate, but pick up interesting background bonuses (like more allies, or resources, or a new car, or a magic item/ relic), and the opportunity to learn some skills, where appropriate. With the role-mechanics in IN, I'd think that 36 character points is plenty for a starting character. It is more fun to RP out a character seeking a teacher, an NPC who might well recur in the campaign if they seem interesting, than to just dole out xp. But players do like xp. I think it is still useful to try to loosely define what 'mid-level' characters might be able to do, that would be difficult or impossible for starting ones ;-) jo (but I'd be interested to see that essay, when you write it!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:59:03 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine character maximums On Fri, May 08, 1998 at 11:29:11AM +0100, Hart, Joanna wrote: > The problem to me with a lot of RPGs that have very granular stats is that > in a few _weeks_ of game-time, if PCs are very busy, they can get from > starting-stats to demi-gods. Yes, it's icky, but not unique to In Nomine. > where appropriate. With the role-mechanics in IN, I'd think that 36 > character points is plenty for a starting character. > I've never been happy with the characters I've built on 36 points, even though I almost never buy relics, more than one Vessel, or Vessels above level 1. I've always felt that there were skills that they were missing, usually end up downgrading Role levels a lot in order to give them the skills to support a higher-level Role. IMO, 20 points is about right for you to be reasonably good at one profession, and when you have to buy a Vessel, a Role, and one or two Songs, you have virtually no points for background interests. (Granted, not all Celestials have Roles, but those who don't are probably sent on lots of different types of assignments and need to be more widely skilled, or more deeply skilled because they get sent on missions more frequently.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In the period of dictatorship, surrounded on all sides by enemies, we sometimes manifested unnecessary leniency and unnecessary softheartedness." N.V. Krylenko. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 07:24:18 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: IN> Djinn Thanks to those who replied to my goings on about the Djinn. Particularly about the errata and the fact that I was Cherubising them. Need to do some rethinking, have always had some problems with Djinn in my mind, thought I had it that time. Ah well, c'est la vie. Re-read. Re-read. Re-read. Andrew Who if he were an Angel would be a Cherub ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 14:51:38 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> War, the Sword and the War On Wed, May 06, 1998 at 05:51:42PM -0400, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Mm. I was thinking that it's Laurence and Baal who have the most martial > worldviews of their respective sides. Laurence is a Malak, and Baal has > that dark honor thing going. Each is the commander of their side's army, > and both of them care very passionately about the military as a culture > and a concept. > Well, there is the fact that Laurence is the particular patron of the Catholic Church. Now whatever else may be said about the Catholic Church, it is not a military organisation, though it is quite strongly hierarchical. (Anyone citing Julius II will have to overcome the fact that Laurence supported reform of the Church during the Renaissance.) An analysis of the social teachings of the Catholic Church over all times and countries is beyond the scope of my knowledge, but there is certainly material there to suggest that Laurence supports dedicating your life to God in a non-martial fashion. > There's a lot of overlap in worldview that's missing between Michael > and Baal. Baal is the general making marks on his map, Laurence is the > knight pledging his sword to God, and Michael is the peasant picking > up a sickle to fight off bandits. > Michael, IMO, should be all three, and everything else associated with War. > Laurence and Baal would try to change the way an army thinks about > itself: Baal would try to convince them that soldiers are a higher > breed, and Laurence that they are in service to God and mankind. But > both would focus on the idea of the soldier as a way of life. > In Laurence's case, I'd say he'd also support the idea of the priest as a way of life, or the social worker as a way of life. > Michael seems to embody a lower-level idea: that there are lines you > must draw, things worth sacrifice. The military is interesting to him > only insofar as there is a somewhat higher percentage of people > consciously aware of that idea in it. > I'd agree to an extent. Military culture is certainly different from civilian culture, though, and I'd assume that anyone who wasn't in the military purely as a career would hold that idea. > Of the martial angels, Janus and David seem closer to Michael, and > Gabriel and Dominic closer to Laurence. I'm not sure yet -- I'll > have to think about this some more. > Well, Janus couldn't be much less similar to Laurence, now could he? I see David as resembling Laurence more than Gabriel does, though. Order and community complements Honour and hierarchy rather well, while I can't see too many similarities between Gabriel's way and Laurence's. I'd say it's more like a spectrum, with the Ofanim on one side, the Malakim on the other, and Michael in the middle. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "If you let it get too far it would be the end of everything. You would have bicycles wanting votes and they would get seats on the County Council and make the roads far worse than they are for their own ulterior motivation." The Third Policeman, by Flann O'Brien. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:31:28 EDT From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Dissonance Conditions (Re: Angels and Dicey Words) In a message dated 5/7/98 4:48:31 PM, graveyard_greg@yahoo.com writes: >---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> If you've hashed it out ahead of time, and it's part of over-all >> tactics, it's probably fine. But yes, it may be for the best that >> Michael stepped down! > >Any volunteers to tell Michael to step down? >I sure ain't going to tell him! >Graveyard Greg Except for one thing. He *already* stepped down. Voluntarily. He gave Laurence command of the Host mainly because he's a hot warror and The War is a cold war. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 17:06:43 +0200 From: "Jens Alm" Subject: SV: IN> In Nomine character maximums [SNIP SNAP] >I've never been happy with the characters I've built on 36 points, even >though I almost never buy relics, more than one Vessel, or Vessels above >level 1. I've always felt that there were skills that they were missing, >usually end up downgrading Role levels a lot in order to give them the >skills to support a higher-level Role. > >IMO, 20 points is about right for you to be reasonably good at one >profession, and when you have to buy a Vessel, a Role, and one or two >Songs, you have virtually no points for background interests. [SNIP SNAP] The players I GM tend to take a bunch of discords to start out with. Due to the number of discords available and the fact that they all give you three CP per level taken means that many discords are very "cheap" gamewise. That is, they give you a lot of points without really hindering you. If, for instance, you have a very high or very low Perception, you can (due to the d666 bell curve) take several levels of Celestial Blindness without it affecting your chance of perceiving someone in celestial form. All in all, the rules for starting discords need very heavy GM supervision (or self-moderation on the part of the player), otherwise, they rapidly turn into easy freebie points. /Jens ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #765 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.