From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jun 1 14:48:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22945 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:48:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA19398 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:02:14 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:02:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199806011902.OAA19398@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #802 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, June 1 1998 Volume 01 : Number 802 In this digest: Re: IN> Cross-overs...and a question IN> The Songbook IN> The Question of the Celestial Tongue IN> Statistics for the Word-Bound Re: IN> The Question of the Celestial Tongue IN> Re: IN- Cross-overs...and a question IN> Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue Re: IN> Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue Re: IN> Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue Re: IN> Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue Re: IN> Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue Re: IN> Re: IN- Cross-overs...and a question IN> My thoughts on the Celestial Tongues IN> Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue Re: IN> Cross-overs...and a question Re: IN> The Question of the Celestial Tongue Re: IN> My thoughts on the Celestial Tongues Re: IN> Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue Re: IN> My thoughts on the Celestial Tongues IN> Choirness question Re: IN> Choirness question Re: IN> Choirness question IN> Attunment incompatibility? (Manaxiel) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 12:58:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Cross-overs...and a question - ---SienarFLT@aol.com wrote: As a rule of thumb, skills and songs can only be advanced one level at a > time. Same here. > > New Songs are different. The players are pretty much locked into them upon > character creation, with a couple of exceptions. Again, same here. > The question then becomes, what do you do about players who take one form of > every song at level 1? Thank heavens that did NOT happen to me! :) > > -- Thom Dawson (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) Thanks, Thom! Yer a big help! :) Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 19:23:28 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Songbook >>>Others on the list who are "in the know" have strongly hinted at angels/demons who have a special Attunement being the only ones who can teach new songs (at least that's what I've understood, the Songbook being a strange and amorphous thing at the moment <<< Yes, somewhat. It's not yet clear whether anyone can teach anyone else a Song, but probably not. There probably will be a number of different ways in which one can learn a Song besides being taught by a Superior or a celestial with an attunement, though. (Note the word "probably," none of this is canon yet.) >>>which a lot of people mention, as if it were on everyone's shelves already, but does anyone know anything about possible release?).<<< As the editor, I can say that with the current timetable, it _should_ be out later this year. But don't hold me to that -- the release of game supplements is often impacted by multitudinous factors, many of which are beyond the editor's control. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 18:02:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: IN> The Question of the Celestial Tongue It says the celestial tongue cannot be spoken in the corporeal form. Yet, there is an attunement of Michael's that allows the celestial tongue to be spoken faster while in corporeal form. And there was a story bit with Gabriel speaking in the celestial tongue, and her servitor replied in the same tongue while in celestial form. So, can it be spoken in the corporeal form, or can't it? I say IT CAN! Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation - --creator of The Reliquary http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/everquest/46/ _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:27:50 -0700 From: Drake Subject: IN> Statistics for the Word-Bound Hiya, After my extensive work on stat levels for Superiors, I accidently started creating some rather interesting stuff for Word-Bound celestials.. so here is a recap on this stuff as well as a greater explanation for actual game use. The Word Force: Every celestial that possesses a Word has an additional Force that represents that Word in the Symphony and in relation to the celestial and the beings in service to that celestial. Each Word Force ranges from a level of 1-6 like standard Forces, with the characteristic levels maxing out at 12. The Word Force has 2 Characteristics: Sense and Resonance. Sense allows the celestial to perceive how his or her Word is doing in the Symphony by making a roll similar to a Disturbance roll for any major occurance related to the Word, in which the range is Sense multiplied by Word Forces in yards with the actual Sense roll being used to determine the Word within this range. Resonance gives the celestial the ability to manipulate the rules in respect to his or her Word, such as preforming an action that reflects his or her Word but would cause the celestial to gain dissonance, the celestial would roll against Resonance and if successful, the celestial would not gain any disturbance for that action. The Resonance roll can also be used in the creation of new Attunements and Rites for the Word-Bound, to reflect his or her own Word, much like what a Superior has. In order to do this, the celestial must have enough points to buy the actual Attunement plus that much in Essence and successfully make his or her Resonance roll. If the roll fails then the celestial looses the character points and the Essence and can not use his or her Word Force again for Check Digit hours. One last affect the Resonance roll can have is to influence others in relation to the celestials Word. This in effect is a form of a suggestion power, in which you influence those around you to act more appropriate with your Word. To do this the celestial must make a Resonance roll with a -1 penalty for every person he or she is trying to affect, the target(s) are allowed a Will roll at a penalty equal to the celestials Word Forces to resist. This use of the Resonance costs 1 Essence per person affected and lasts for Check Digit minutes multiplied by the celestial's Word Forces. If the roll fails, then the people the celestial was trying to affect will act the exact opposite to the celestial's Word for Check Digit minutes. Example, a Word-Bound with the Word of Dancing, could use this power on a man and inspire him to dance and promote dancing. Note that in order to use the Resonance characteristic, the celestial must first successfully sense his or her Word by making a Sense roll. Empower Attunement: This Attunement allows the user to bestow a special Attunement, Rite, or some other capability. Each use of this Attunement costs the Word-Bound 1 Essence per character point that the power would cost. This is a special Attunement that only a handful of Word-Bound learn and must learn it directly from a Superior. Advancement: The Word-Bound gain 1 character point per minor promotion of their Word, 2 for major, and 3 for drastic change, as well as the same amount in Essence. The Essence is gained at the end of the day and the greatest promotion of the Word is the one that determines how much Essence is gained (Michael promoted his Word a minor time and a major time. He would gain 2 Essence at the end of the day for the Major promotion). The reverse of this can also happen.. The Word-Bound loses 1 character point for each minor failure at promotion of the Word, -2 for major, and - -3 for drastic. Essence is also handled the same way, losing Essence for failing to promote the Word. Essence Cache: The Word-Bound have an Essence Cache similar to Ethereals, equal to 10 times their total Core Forces (Corporeal, Ethereal, Celestial), which is used for creating Vessels, Artifacts, Mundane Objects and Celestials, and nothing else. Welp there she is, hope ya like it. Amon-Nahashel "Drake" Malakite of War, in service to Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 20:50:53 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> The Question of the Celestial Tongue > >It says the celestial tongue cannot be spoken in the corporeal form. >Yet, there is an attunement of Michael's that allows the celestial >tongue to be spoken faster while in corporeal form. > >And there was a story bit with Gabriel speaking in the celestial >tongue, and her servitor replied in the same tongue while in celestial >form. > >So, can it be spoken in the corporeal form, or can't it? I say IT CAN! > First, remember that there are -two- Celestial Tongues, Angelic and Diabolic. Angelic cannot be spoken in Corporeal form. Diabolic can. (p. 187 IN Rulebook) In the Interlude at the beginning of the Rulebook, no mention is made of speaking in Angelic. Redneck Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 22:15:58 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Cross-overs...and a question >> The question then becomes, what do you do about players who take one >form of >> every song at level 1? You don't accept the character until the player can give a background for the character that can justify it. Simple as that. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "I do what I can, not much else." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 22:28:31 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue >>It says the celestial tongue cannot be spoken in the corporeal form. >>Yet, there is an attunement of Michael's that allows the celestial >>tongue to be spoken faster while in corporeal form. >> >>And there was a story bit with Gabriel speaking in the celestial >>tongue, and her servitor replied in the same tongue while in celestial >>form. >> >>So, can it be spoken in the corporeal form, or can't it? I say IT CAN! >> >First, remember that there are -two- Celestial Tongues, Angelic and Diabolic. > >Angelic cannot be spoken in Corporeal form. Diabolic can. > >(p. 187 IN Rulebook) > >In the Interlude at the beginning of the Rulebook, no mention is made of >speaking in Angelic. > >Redneck Sod page 187, I feel that this limit on the use of Angelic Tongue does not work to stimulate creativity, rather it words to stifle it. This is my opinion and as such cannot be challenged. However, after reviewing page 187 and pg 131 (concerning Vassal of War), it seems clear that the authors are saying that Angelic Tongue CANNOT be spoken in Corporeal form, *except* for the Vassal of War. Thus, canonically speaking, I agree with Redneck, but as a GM, I say _sod_ the rules. Besides, rules are meant to be guidelines, as far as I'm concerned. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 23:15:04 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue >>>It says the celestial tongue cannot be spoken in the corporeal form. >>>Yet, there is an attunement of Michael's that allows the celestial >>>tongue to be spoken faster while in corporeal form. >>>So, can it be spoken in the corporeal form, or can't it? I say IT CAN! >>> >>Angelic cannot be spoken in Corporeal form. Diabolic can. >> >>(p. 187 IN Rulebook) >> >Sod page 187, I feel that this limit on the use of Angelic Tongue does >not work to stimulate creativity, rather it words to stifle it. This is >my opinion and as such cannot be challenged. > The only creative use I can think of offhand for Angelic would be as a language no human could understand. Otherwise, all you have is a really pretentious way of saying things that can just as easily be said in English, or else ways of expressing ideas that can't be expressed in English and therefore can't be roleplayed in English. If you have a creative way of using Angelic in normal roleplaying, I'd like to hear it. >Thus, canonically speaking, I agree with Redneck, but as a GM, I say >_sod_ the rules. > >Besides, rules are meant to be guidelines, as far as I'm concerned. The rules are meant to be a common ground from which all players can play together on the same game. House rules are fine, but be careful not to make too many or else other players won't have that common frame of reference anymore. My attitude on Angelic is, for roleplay purposes, the only difference from English is you can't lie in it. If you want to speak Celestial in an Earthly vessel, learn Diabolic. Redneck Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 05:48:07 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue At 22:28 31/05/98 EST, you wrote: > >However, after reviewing page 187 and pg 131 (concerning Vassal of War), >it seems clear that the authors are saying that Angelic Tongue CANNOT be >spoken in Corporeal form, *except* for the Vassal of War. >Thus, canonically speaking, I agree with Redneck, but as a GM, I say >_sod_ the rules. > Hee. I quite like the idea that it could be used as well. I was actually thinking that there might be some kind of pidgin-angelic that ordinary vessels could use - maybe by whistling, singing, painting or some other way of trying to use artistry/ singing to put the general meaning across. It would only have a few 'words' in it and be quite limited in what you could actually say (kind of similar to the way they used to signal with flags on ships), or else be very cumbersome (ie. and noticeable) if you wanted to try to really spell things out. I'd also think that you might be able to choose to 'speak' in angelic when using the ethereal or celestial songs of tongues. Not sure, maybe those automatically translate themselves into the 'native' language of the recipient. jo "Whatever was required to be done, the Circumlocution Office was before hand with all the public departments in the art of perceiving HOW NOT TO DO IT." -- Dickens (Little Dorrit) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 20:56:49 From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue Dear Perry and Redneck (and List) **some snipped throughout for Brevity** At 11:15 PM 31/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>>It says the celestial tongue cannot be spoken in the corporeal form. >>>>Yet, there is an attunement of Michael's that allows the celestial >>>>tongue to be spoken faster while in corporeal form. > >>>>So, can it be spoken in the corporeal form, or can't it? I say IT CAN! >>>> >>>Angelic cannot be spoken in Corporeal form. Diabolic can. >>> >>>(p. 187 IN Rulebook) >>> >>Sod page 187, I feel that this limit on the use of Angelic Tongue does >>not work to stimulate creativity, rather it words to stifle it. This is >>my opinion and as such cannot be challenged. > >The only creative use I can think of offhand for Angelic would be as a >language no human could understand. Otherwise, all you have is a really >pretentious way of saying things that can just as easily be said in English, >or else ways of expressing ideas that can't be expressed in English and >therefore can't be roleplayed in English. > >If you have a creative way of using Angelic in normal roleplaying, I'd like >to hear it. Leaving notes, whispered half heard conversations and obscene tattoos on visible body parts. Of course that is all Non Canon, but can prompt some interesting play. One of the useful things about Spoken or Written Angelic is that it can only approximate the full meaning of the Celestial Tounge, so maybe the weird sign over the door means Exit or maybe it means Extinction. >My attitude on Angelic is, for roleplay purposes, the only difference from >English is you can't lie in it. It can also be another confusing thing to indicate you are a Celestial, tho not what sort. I generally Rule that Celestials can sufficiently pronounce the Celestial Tounge to prove that they are Celestials, but are you gonna believe me when I tell you I'm a Mercurian. They can also carry some meaning if they are prepared to be really obvious, like singing multipart harmony, waving their arms and bodies and so on. >If you want to speak Celestial in an Earthly vessel, learn Diabolic. That works too. There is nothing wrong with the Canon, but it can be fun to play around with the Concept of trying to articulate or represent a language of Truth in a world constrained by Material Facts. Thanking you for your indulgence. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 07:07:56 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue Jo Hart wrote: > At 22:28 31/05/98 EST, you wrote: > > Hee. I quite like the idea that it could be used as well. I was actually > thinking that there might be some kind of pidgin-angelic that ordinary > vessels could use - maybe by whistling, singing, painting or some other way > of trying to use artistry/ singing to put the general meaning across. It > would only have a few 'words' in it and be quite limited in what you could > actually say (kind of similar to the way they used to signal with flags on > ships), or else be very cumbersome (ie. and noticeable) if you wanted to > try to really spell things out. p. 77 under the singing skill. Celestials with the right skill can already sing a "limited" form of the celestial language. p. 73 under the artist skill. Celestials can embed messages within a work of art that can only be read by other celestials that also appreciate art. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:35:51 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue >p. 77 under the singing skill. Celestials with the right skill can already >sing a "limited" form of the celestial language. (Actually any celestial can do this, I thought. Those who don't have the skill will just do it at a penalty) Yes, but which celestial language is that? I haven't used this at all yet, but I'd generally assume that a listener would know if the words had been encoded using the demonic form or the angelic one. They're different languages, after all. This was pretty much what I'd been thinking of as pidgin-angelic/ demonic. I'm imagining some celestial absently hearing a snatch of a song being sung by some aged foreign refugee to his/ her grandchild and picking up in it the distinct angelic phrasing of 'help me' -- or something; then on questioning, finding out that the singer had learned it from his/her own grandmother back in the old country.. they might never find out how long ago some angel once needed to call for help, or what happened to them. Then again, maybe they would find out... (I think that's quite a respectable plot seed) Now if the singing skill alone can't do that, then I do think it'd be cool to have something which could. ie. The other way of looking at the singing skill is that it embeds a feeling, not a verbalisation. But I like the idea of words. You could teach the song to a mortal courier -- it wouldn't even need to be a soldier. They'd never know what the hidden meaning was. So you could easily say that the ability to communicate in some form of angelic whilst in mortal form _is_ already built in. So what's the problem? :) It seemed to me that the main advantage of Michael's attunement was that it allowed very fast communication of information. >p. 73 under the artist skill. Celestials can embed messages within a work of >art that can only be read by other celestials that also appreciate art. True. I actually think that might have been better as a song or an attunement but never mind :) jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 07:40:24 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Cross-overs...and a question In a message dated 98-05-31 23:21:30 EDT, you write: > >> The question then becomes, what do you do about players who take one > >form of > >> every song at level 1? > > You don't accept the character until the player can give a background > for the character that can justify it. Simple as that. Yes, it is as simple as that, but I am an ill person (in the head that is :-) ). *I* was the one who came up with the background so that the player could use it in the game. I just felt that a lesson needed to be learned.... -- Thom Dawson (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) "I have always held to the line that the wisest thing a writer can do is be himself and trust to God that the people he offends are those he doesn't like." -- Ben Hecht. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 08:46:29 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: IN> My thoughts on the Celestial Tongues p.131, Vassal of War - "Angels of this rank can sing the celestial language while in their corporeal forms... Any angel within hearing can understand, but only other Vassals of War can reply in kind. Demons will recognize the tongue but will not understand..." p.187, The Dark Celestial Tongue - "Unlike the devine language, the dark tongue of demons can be spoken in any form...angels can make neither heads nor tails of the speech of a Diabolicals tongue, though they can identify it for what it is." Besides being somewhat contradictory these two exerpts tell us a few things: First, the language spoken by Vassals of War is the angelic tongue, but it must be encoded in some way that demons can not comprehend. Second, the angelic tongue may not be spoken in corporeal form except by Vassals of War or some other similarly enhanced angel. Third, both angels and demons in any form can recognize either celestial language in any form even if in the case of angels they can not speak it. This means that by speaking in either celestial language you give away your status. It is also implied that angels can not learn the demonic tongue, that there is something infernal about it, perhaps each celestial language is integral to the celestial side you are on and simply by being an angel you can speak the angelic tongue and vice versa. If this is true the idea that the language is not learned but innate is an interesting one. Forth, from the wording of the Vassal of War destinction I get the strong impression that the speed of communication is inheirent in the celestial tongue, not as part of the encoding that the ability grants. This would make sense as the celestial tongue is the "perfect language" so to speak. It might also mean that the demonic tongue has the same ability, though with the level of deception and misdirection involved in the tongue to make angels unable to understand it this might not be true. Finally, given the fact that the angelic tongue can not be spoken in corporeal form I tend to doubt whether mortals could even learn the pidgen-celestial lyrics. They probably could using the demonic tongue though which is rather intriguing in itself. On the other hand you could make a strong case for Soldiers of God to be able to learn the pidgen-celestial language as a skill and then use singing/artist to convey information. Whether they could understand what they were singing is another story. Conclusion: Though I think it might be interesting to have mortals singing in the celestial tongues I just don't think that they can do it. Nor do I think that you could teach them a part of a song to sing that would be this so called pidgen-celestial, unless of course you were speaking of the diabolical tongue, then all bets are off. People had also expressed some interest in an attunement that granted the ability to speak the celestial tongue in corporeal form to which I say that such an ability exists and is granted to Vassals of War, who also seem to get the ability to encode the language so that only angels have a clue. For those angels that want to speak the celestial tongue in corporeal form have them earn the Vassal distinction or have them learn the singing skill and speak "pig-celestial." If the character is a good enough singer they might even be able to speak in complete sentences. Remember the war between Heaven and Hell is a cold war of spies and counter-spies. Tipping your hand by speaking in the celestial tongue and therefor letting every celestial that hears you know what you are and which side you are batting for is not a bright idea. Its a good way for your character to become irrelevant to the war effort or at least lessen their impact. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 08:39:07 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue Maybe, but read "The Marches". In it, Gabriel speaks with one of her Servitors, in Celestial, and the Servitor responds in kind. Please note that most Superiors consider it very bad for Angels to know Diabolical, probably even Gabe. This seems to indicate that Celestial can be spoken in Corporeal form. Playing my own Devil's advocate, though, I also feel free to state that most of the stories and interludes seem to contradict canon. Maybe you can only speak Celestial in the presence of a Word Bound, or Superior. Food for thought... >From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) >>It says the celestial tongue cannot be spoken in the corporeal form. >>Yet, there is an attunement of Michael's that allows the celestial >>tongue to be spoken faster while in corporeal form. >> >>And there was a story bit with Gabriel speaking in the celestial >>tongue, and her servitor replied in the same tongue while in celestial >>form. >> >>So, can it be spoken in the corporeal form, or can't it? I say IT CAN! >> >First, remember that there are -two- Celestial Tongues, Angelic and Diabolic. > >Angelic cannot be spoken in Corporeal form. Diabolic can. > >(p. 187 IN Rulebook) Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 11:44:27 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Cross-overs...and a question SienarFLT@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 98-05-29 18:57:08 EDT, you write: > >> By the way, what are some house rules you all use for buying new >> skills or songs? I have my own rules, but I wanna hear some >> others...Might be better than mine--not that that's hard, mind you! > > >I expect that in the Songbook this will be discussed more. > >Others on the list who are "in the know" have strongly hinted at angels/demons >who have a special Attunement being the only ones who can teach new songs (at >least that's what I've understood, the Songbook being a strange and amorphous >thing at the moment which a lot of people mention, as if it were on everyone's >shelves already, but does anyone know anything about possible release?). For my own game, any celestial can teach any other celestial any Song it knows. A human can only learn Songs from a celestial; s/he can't learn them from books or other humans. Any skills can be picked up, as long as there is a reasonable way the character (whatever type) could have learned it. The only big limit is that you can only raise a Skill or Song one level per session. The 1-6 skil range is pretty narrow, and I don't want PCs jumping from unskilled to professional in between a single session. I think this may also encourage PCs to become broadly skilled rather than specialists. (This is IMO a good thing, but other people may prefer that PCs have well-defined shticks.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:54:28 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Question of the Celestial Tongue At 6:02 PM -0700 5/31/98, Graveyard Greg wrote: >It says the celestial tongue cannot be spoken in the corporeal form. Yup. Only Helltongue can be spoken corporeally, normally. >Yet, there is an attunement of Michael's that allows the celestial >tongue to be spoken faster while in corporeal form. Actually, the Vassal of War distinction allows them to sing celestial *at all*, not 'faster.' They sing it faster *than Earthly languages*. >And there was a story bit with Gabriel speaking in the celestial >tongue, and her servitor replied in the same tongue while in celestial >form. Errata. Gabriel can speak it, no doubt. (She's an Archangel, after all.) Her Servitor cannot. Delete all reference to the Servitor using it. (www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/errata) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:22:45 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> My thoughts on the Celestial Tongues In a message dated 98-06-01 08:55:51 EDT, you write: > p.131, Vassal of War - "Angels of this rank can sing the celestial language > while in their corporeal forms... Any angel within hearing can understand, > but > only other Vassals of War can reply in kind. Demons will recognize the > tongue > but will not understand..." [snip] > Besides being somewhat contradictory these two exerpts tell us a few things: > > First, the language spoken by Vassals of War is the angelic tongue, but it > must be encoded in some way that demons can not comprehend. [larger snip] > Forth, from the wording of the Vassal of War destinction I get the strong > impression that the speed of communication is inheirent in the celestial > tongue, > not as part of the encoding that the ability grants. This would make sense I am very confused about the talk of "encoding." Is there something somewhere else which mentions "encoding"? Because all that can be understood from p 131 on the Vassal of War entry is that demons cannot understand it, but can recognize it, and vice versa for the Diabolic language. For example I do not understand of lick of Japanese language, but I can recognize it as an an Oriental language -- although perhaps not specifically which one. When a person speaks in his/her/its native tongue, there is no encoding. So again I am confused by the use of that word in this context. > Finally, given the fact that the angelic tongue can not be spoken in > corporeal > form I tend to doubt whether mortals could even learn the pidgen-celestial > lyrics. They probably could using the demonic tongue though which is rather > intriguing in itself. I don't understand why mortals would be able to use or understand the demonic tongue just because it can be spoken corporeally. As far as I'm concerned, they would be lost as to the meaning too. > also seem to get the ability to encode the language so that only angels have Again the "encoding" thing... Sorry, don't mean to belabor the point, but I just don't understand. -- Thom, who has a day off and can actually participate... "There's one hole in every revolution, large or small. And it's one word long: people. No matter how big the idea they all stand under, people are small and weak and cheap and frightened. It's people that kill every revolution." -- Spider Jerusalem. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:04:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- The Question of the Celestial Tongue At 5:48 AM +0100 6/1/98, Jo Hart wrote: >At 22:28 31/05/98 EST, you wrote: >> >>However, after reviewing page 187 and pg 131 (concerning Vassal of War), >>it seems clear that the authors are saying that Angelic Tongue CANNOT be >>spoken in Corporeal form, *except* for the Vassal of War. >>Thus, canonically speaking, I agree with Redneck, but as a GM, I say >>_sod_ the rules. That too. >Hee. I quite like the idea that it could be used as well. I was actually >thinking that there might be some kind of pidgin-angelic that ordinary >vessels could use - maybe by whistling, singing, painting or some other way >of trying to use artistry/ singing to put the general meaning across. In the description of the Singing skill, it lists "humming" (along with the silly mechanic of having the player hum). This is, indeed, "pig-celestial" or "pidgen-celestial"... I also equip my Judgment triads with some limited code-tunes, which are a bit of a mystery to other angels, even. (I also give triads some hand-signs -- so the Elohim/Mercurians/Malakim/ Ofanim can quietly and semi-secretly notify their Seraphim of what their resonance might be telling them -- and the ever popular Judgment shorthand for taking notes. I justify the handsigns as a natural way to get triads working as teams quickly, when it says in the expanded writeup that triads are rarely stable.) The Game may have something similar (or use Judgment handsigns! All those Fallen are good for something, no?), or seperate teams may develop their own ways of communicating secretly. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 12:32:05 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> My thoughts on the Celestial Tongues Andrew Frades wrote: > > Finally, given the fact that the angelic tongue can not be spoken in > corporeal form I tend to doubt whether mortals could even learn > the pidgen- celestial lyrics. They probably could using the demonic >tongue though which is rather intriguing in itself. Interesting to note: this could explain why sorcerors can't summon/bind angels -- their requests are rejected for being improperly formatted, i.e. in the demonic tongue -- they can't get the attention of the angels they wish to summon/bind! The sorcerors get their knowledge as part of the Sorcery Attunement, IMO, but their knowledge is imperfect, which sometimes leads to them getting the shaft when they summon a demon to their service, since their command to service is improperly phrased and non-binding. Calling a demon to come and play without all safety interlocks properly engaged is probably the leading cause of death among sorcerors. *g* tom timberlake, cadre Cherub of Heaven ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:12:18 -0700 From: alloni@ibsystems.com (Alloni Kramer) Subject: IN> Choirness question Let's say you're wandering down the street, and a guy springs out in front of you, and says, "Hi! I'm Bobiel!" Presume you have one of the little bells or whistles that go "ding!" when you see an angel of some kind. If you get in casual conversation with them, about how long do you think it would take to guess that Bobiel is a Mercurian, Seraph, whatever? Can you think of anything you would say to them that would elicit some specific response depending on what Choir they belong to? How about their Superior? Also, is any of this kept secret? In the demonic tale in In Nomine, whats-his-face indicated some desire to keep his Superior secret. Is this only on the demonic side? When you are meeting another angel for the first time, do you immediately say, "Hi. I'm Stan, a Malakite of Janus. Run like the Wind," or is it more, "Hi. I'm Stan. I'm a Kyrio," or even, "Hi. I'm Stan. Nyah nyah."? Oh, and disturbance. Does anybody have a home-brewed system for it that does not require a scientific calculator and a Doctorate in Mathematics? All these questions, and we haven't even started playing yet. Sigh. Alloni ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 14:36:19 -0400 From: Robb Kidd Subject: Re: IN> Choirness question Alloni Kramer wrote: > Oh, and disturbance. Does anybody have a home-brewed system for it that > does not require a scientific calculator and a Doctorate in Mathematics? How about ... Create a disturbance. Decide how big the disturbance was on a general scale (squeak, minor, horn, major, Godzilla). Decide how important it is to your game for the PCs to hear it. Pick a target number and give them rolls. Or, depending on the criteria above, have them roll and tell them what you want them to know regardless of the result. Or, just tell them. I do recommend humming and hawing to make it sound like you're being consistant with some set of rules, even if you haven't shared those rules with the PCs for "mystery's sake". ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 20:42:46 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Choirness question On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Alloni Kramer wrote: > > Let's say you're wandering down the street, and a guy springs out in front > of you, and says, "Hi! I'm Bobiel!" > > Presume you have one of the little bells or whistles that go "ding!" when > you see an angel of some kind. > > If you get in casual conversation with them, about how long do you think it > would take to guess that Bobiel is a Mercurian, Seraph, whatever? Can you > think of anything you would say to them that would elicit some specific > response depending on what Choir they belong to? How about their Superior? > > Also, is any of this kept secret? In the demonic tale in In Nomine, > whats-his-face indicated some desire to keep his Superior secret. Is this > only on the demonic side? When you are meeting another angel for the first > time, do you immediately say, "Hi. I'm Stan, a Malakite of Janus. Run > like the Wind," or is it more, "Hi. I'm Stan. I'm a Kyrio," or even, > "Hi. I'm Stan. Nyah nyah."? I think this is a little bit like talking about where you're from and what kind of job you've got. You don't walk up to someone and say "Hi! I'm Stan from Missouri, and I'm a lawyer.", but if someone asks where you're from and what you do for a living you'll (probably) tell them. You might also be able to guess something about where someone's from or what kind of work they do from how they look, how they speak and so on, but that can also be misleading. Not all Elohim are cool and distant, not all Seraphim are aloof, not all Servitors of Flowers go around flashing peace signs. :) For demons it's a bit trickier - angels usually don't go around backstabbing each other unless they get specific orders to do so, which shouldn't happen very often, but demons are normally supposed to work against the enemies of their Demon Prince without any special orders. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists.. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 14:41:47 -0400 From: Robb Kidd Subject: IN> Attunment incompatibility? (Manaxiel) The errate for the _Liber Reliquarium_ reads: >>P. 124. Manaxiel does not have the Seraph of Creation attunement (it is incompatible with the Malakite of Lightning attunement). << And scour the list archives and scratch the noggin as I might, I cannot find the reasoning behind this. Enlightenment, anyone? ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #802 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.