From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jun 2 13:24:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05266 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:24:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA10134 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:24:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:24:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199806021824.NAA10134@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #803 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, June 2 1998 Volume 01 : Number 803 In this digest: IN> Oh, and I almost forgot... Re: IN> Choirness question Re: IN> Oh, and I almost forgot... Re: IN> Choirness question Re: IN> Oh, and I almost forgot... Re: IN> The Question of the Celestial Tongue IN> Role Levels Re: IN> The Question of the Celestial Tongue Re: IN> Oh, and I almost forgot... Re: IN> Role Levels Re: IN> Choirness question Re: IN> My thoughts on the Celestial Tongues Re: IN> Oh, and I almost forgot... Re: IN> My thoughts on the Celestial Tongues IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP Re: IN> SuperSuperior! Re: IN> My thoughts on the Celestial Tongues Re: IN> Choirness question Re: IN> My thoughts on the Celestial Tongues Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP [none] Re: IN> Choirness question Re: IN> Choirness question Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:51:47 -0700 From: alloni@ibsystems.com (Alloni Kramer) Subject: IN> Oh, and I almost forgot... I've looked over the List O' Celestial-Detecting stuff. Well and good. However, considering how few of them allow you with any certainty to know whether someone is an angel or demon, what's to stop a demon from walking up to some angel he's found out about, sticking out his hand, and saying, "Hi! Frankiel, Cherub of Novalis. Niceta meetcha."? I play the Angel's Advocate with myself: However, considering that there ARE ways to do so, only the suicidally stupid would actually go through with something like this. All it takes is a decent check digit from any of two or three angels, and you've got big big problems. Still, would angels be in the habit of asking celestials they meet on the street to assume celestial form? Or is this a social faux pas? Alloni again ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 15:00:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Choirness question My impression is that angels are generally quite open about themselves. They might not advertize choir and archangel on immediate encounter, but in the fan-fiction I've seen generated by IN, whenever one angel meets a new one in a formal context or in the course of work, they say, with a touch of ceremony, ", of ." That is, you say "Haniel, Cherub of Dream" when, in a more mundane plot, you might say, "Major Caruthers, Special Forces," or some such. I suppose angels relaxing at Tethers, especially multi-Word ones like Notre Dame, might just wear little fill-in name tags... ("Hi! I'm _______, ________ of _______ ") Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:45:35 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Oh, and I almost forgot... On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Alloni Kramer wrote: > > I've looked over the List O' Celestial-Detecting stuff. Well and good. > However, considering how few of them allow you with any certainty to know > whether someone is an angel or demon, what's to stop a demon from walking > up to some angel he's found out about, sticking out his hand, and saying, > "Hi! Frankiel, Cherub of Novalis. Niceta meetcha."? Nothing. Unless you're a Balseraph, when you must first convince yourself that it's true... ;) > I play the Angel's Advocate with myself: However, considering that there > ARE ways to do so, only the suicidally stupid would actually go through > with something like this. All it takes is a decent check digit from any of > two or three angels, and you've got big big problems. - -If- They resonate on you. They probably will, if they don't know you, though. > Still, would angels be in the habit of asking celestials they meet on the > street to assume celestial form? Or is this a social faux pas? I don't think that would happen, except in a tether, and since demon's can't enter a Divine tether anyway... :) Taking celestial form makes a lot of noise, and therefor isn't very desireable unless it's necessary. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:39:34 -0700 From: alloni@ibsystems.com (Alloni Kramer) Subject: Re: IN> Choirness question Okay, so the consensus seems to be that the whole thing is relatively open and aboveboard, useable in the same points in conversation where you would place "doctor" or "programmer" or "bread mold". Next question: How well known are the Choir/Superior attunements? If someone meets an Ofanite of Fire, does the little box which says "Immune to fire, heat, and radiation" immediately light up in their head? How about the other attunements? If you meet a servitor of Marc, would you know enough to ask them if they can write binding contracts? Alloni ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:09:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Oh, and I almost forgot... At 11:51 AM -0700 6/1/98, Alloni Kramer wrote: >I've looked over the List O' Celestial-Detecting stuff. Well and good. >However, considering how few of them allow you with any certainty to know >whether someone is an angel or demon, what's to stop a demon from walking >up to some angel he's found out about, sticking out his hand, and saying, >"Hi! Frankiel, Cherub of Novalis. Niceta meetcha."? Nothing. (One of the vignettes in the Infernal Player's Guide has a demon who's been doing that for quite some time, in the Mixed Parties section.) >Still, would angels be in the habit of asking celestials they meet on the >street to assume celestial form? Or is this a social faux pas? It depends on circumstances, I'd think... Check out http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/fiat.html -- a triad eventually shows up to talk to one of the PCs. The PC, twitchy and half-expecting the Game, shoots the Elohite. (Non-fatally.) If disturbance is a consideration, then yes, it's tacky to ask. However, it does settle matters quickly. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:24:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> The Question of the Celestial Tongue - ---Redneck Gaijin wrote: >> In the Interlude at the beginning of the Rulebook, no mention is made of > speaking in Angelic. > > Redneck Look at page 21 of The Marches. Gabriel and her servitor are speaking the celestial tongue. Now, if it were just Gabriel speaking it, I would write it off as a Superior can speak it, but the servitor is speaking it too! Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 17:29:24 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: IN> Role Levels It's kind of fuzzy how much additional "realness" each level of role provides, so I wrote up this little text for my game. The basic idea is that the role covers two things -- official documentation and the number and solidness of your social connections. This is a bit US-specific, but it should give a good enough idea that something analagous can be created for your industrialized nation of choice. - -- Role Levels in In Nomine Level 0 You have no documentation. At all. Even getting pulled over for a speeding ticket is likely to lead to a major disaster. You don't know any humans, either, except maybe a Soldier that your Superior introduced you to. You can't even manage a convincing existence as a bum -- the other street people won't recognize you, and neither will the social workers. Level 1 Your fake ID is still warm from the laminating machine -- you barely have an official existence. You have no Social Security number, no credit card, and no birth certificate. You will find it difficult or even impossible to get a bank account, and you will have to rely on cash for any transactions. You have established yourself in the lives of very few humans -- you know few humans beyond Soldiers. Any neighbors or coworkers might recognize your face, but they certainly won't remember you. Thanksgiving and Christmas are probably quite lonely times of year. Level 2 You have enough documentation that you can get an apartment and a bank account, but even a cursory investigation will reveal you to be a fraud. If you even have a birth certificate, it's faked. And don't even think about a credit history. You may have one or two humans friends or rivals, and have as acquaintances a few more people. Your social circle is a lot smaller than most, and you still don't have any family. Level 3 You have most of the official documentation that you will need, though a substantial portion of it is forged. At this role level, you can go through day-to-day life without any real problems, though police scrutiny is still a thing you want to avoid as much as possible. Anyone investigating you will discover without difficulty facts like that you don't exist in the files of your supposed high school, or that there are irregularities in your birth certificates, but it will take digging to find this out. Your neighbors and coworkers are probably aware of you, but do not know you especially well. You don't have any real friends from your putative place of origin, and while you probably have parents and a sibling or two, you are likely not all that close. Level 4 Your role is secure enough at this level that it can even survive a certain amount of scrutiny. While it couldn't survive a national electoral campaign, it is good enough that you don't have to worry about being a witness in a criminal investigation. Your papers are mostly in order -- any irregularities are things that are unusual rather than illegal. Maybe your college transcript lists you as getting a 'B' grade in every single class you took, or every credit card bill you received prior to moving into your current city is between 450 and 452 dollars. You probably know quite a few people in your current residence, and can be close to your family, as well. There is still a noteworthy lack of people you knew prior to wherever the role is situated. Level 5 At this level, your official paperwork is completely in order -- everything from birth certificate to passport to credit history is perfectly normal. The only giveaway is that you will be missing some random details from your past -- there won't be pictures of you in your high school yearbook, your supposed roomate at your university won't remember you, and so on. This is not a problem, unless the investigator looking into your past is already suspicious of you. You have the normal complement of family and friends, though it is probably a bit smaller than usual. Maybe a few people who should know you don't, or something like that. Level 6 At this level, your existence is well-documented enough to survive even an intensive FBI background check. All of the papers you need are real and genuine, and someone searching your background will even find that you won the 8th grade spelling bee in back issues of your hometown newspaper. You have (adoptive) parents and relatives, old friends from school and your old hometown, coworkers who call if you miss work, neighbors who bring cookies -- the whole nine yards. (Alternately, you have a rap sheet six miles long, are a made man with the mob, are blood brothers with half the crooks in town and blood enemies with the other half, and know the vice squad well enough to send them birthday gifts. The principle is the same.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:29:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> The Question of the Celestial Tongue - ---Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Yet, there is an attunement of Michael's that allows the celestial > >tongue to be spoken faster while in corporeal form. > > Actually, the Vassal of War distinction allows them to sing celestial > *at all*, not 'faster.' They sing it faster *than Earthly > languages*. > My apologies. I was quoting from flawed memory. :) > >And there was a story bit with Gabriel speaking in the celestial > >tongue, and her servitor replied in the same tongue while in celestial > >form. > > Errata. Gabriel can speak it, no doubt. (She's an Archangel, > after all.) Her Servitor cannot. Delete all reference to the > Servitor using it. (www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/errata) Thank you, Elizabeth. You officially solved the problem. :) Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:34:18 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Oh, and I almost forgot... > It depends on circumstances, I'd think... Check out > http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/fiat.html -- a triad > eventually shows up to talk to one of the PCs. The PC, twitchy > and half-expecting the Game, shoots the Elohite. (Non-fatally.) And I should point out that Zebina felt very bad about it later, and did apologize. After all, they could have been the Game, considering who was the nooky partner. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 17:43:59 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Role Levels How do you see celestials acquiring the family? You said "adoptive," but did you mean official paperwork to that effect, or that the "family" is a group of fellow celestials and Soliders all sticking with the same cover story? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 17:41:24 -0400 From: Robb Kidd Subject: Re: IN> Choirness question Alloni Kramer wrote: > > [...] How well > known are the Choir/Superior attunements? If someone meets an Ofanite of > Fire, does the little box which says "Immune to fire, heat, and radiation" > immediately light up in their head? How about the other attunements? If > you meet a servitor of Marc, would you know enough to ask them if they can > write binding contracts? To continue the analogy from another thread, I would imagine it would be much like Special Forces types coming across one another. You've studied the enemy. (And done a fair bit of studying your allies as well.) You know Sergeant Such-and-So from the Black Stick Battalion has a thing for teaching all his grunties how to gut a person twelve ways to Sunday with a popsicle stick. There's a reason you're a celestial on Corporeal duty. Your perceptions have (presumably) been tried and trusted. To survive, you -have- to be able to pick out the little details that could expose Grandma Shoemaker down in the corner cottage as the essense-sucking Impudite that she is. Knowing Choir/Band and servitor attunements of the beings you work with and against is vital to your operations. Whether or not you knew -details- would probably depend on your training or exposure. The little box which says "Immune to fire, head and radiation" might not appear while you're trying to scorch and Ofanite of Fire, but damn you'd have noticed that those Wheels just don't -burn-, damnit! And Marc? You've seen some of Mammon's little beasties crack under trying to make a deal with some of Marc's guys. The difference in perspective is a bit like quantifying character attributes. When a PC appraises an NPC as a threat, the GM -could- say, "Mmm. You'd estimate he has about a 10 Strength." But I think most, instead of hanging the little box with "10" inside, would say, "He looks like he could snap you in half." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:22:16 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> My thoughts on the Celestial Tongues SienarFLT@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-06-01 08:55:51 EDT, you write: > > I am very confused about the talk > of "encoding." Is there something somewhere else which mentions "encoding"? > Because all that can be understood from p 131 on the Vassal of War entry is > that demons cannot understand it, but can recognize it, and vice versa for the > Diabolic language. For example I do not understand of lick of Japanese > language, but I can recognize it as an an Oriental language -- although > perhaps not specifically which one. When a person speaks in his/her/its > native tongue, there is no encoding. So again I am confused by the use of > that word in this context. > What is relevant is that demons do understand the standard angelic tongue, why don't they understand the one spoken by Vassals of War? > I don't understand why mortals would be able to use or understand the demonic > tongue just because it can be spoken corporeally. As far as I'm concerned, > they would be lost as to the meaning too. > > > also seem to get the ability to encode the language so that only angels > have > > Again the "encoding" thing... Sorry, don't mean to belabor the point, but I > just don't understand. Encoding (please don't argue with my definition, I don't want to open this can of worms again) as I understand it is a way to change a language so that only certain others can understand what you are saying. This is exactly what Vassals of War do with their version of the celestial language, many who could normally understand it simply can not any more. They don't have the proper code book, so to speak. As far as mortals speaking the demonic tongue, that was simply conjecture as to the method that demons took to make a celestial tongue be able to be spoken by corporeal beings. Taking it one more step one could easily conjecture that the change that was made to the language made allowed any corporeal being to speak the language, not just demons. If this were true angels would very likely be able to learn the demonic tongue. I'm not sure I like the idea of mortals speaking the demonic tongue but it could follow logically if that were something that you wanted in your game, and as someone else pointed out it makes good reasoning as to why summoning abilities don't work on angels. You are simply speaking the wrong language. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:41:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Oh, and I almost forgot... On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Alloni Kramer wrote: > I've looked over the List O' Celestial-Detecting stuff. Well and good. > However, considering how few of them allow you with any certainty to know > whether someone is an angel or demon, what's to stop a demon from walking > up to some angel he's found out about, sticking out his hand, and saying, > "Hi! Frankiel, Cherub of Novalis. Niceta meetcha."? The chance that one of the angels is a Seraph, or has an insanely high Detect Lies skill. Other than that, nothing. > I play the Angel's Advocate with myself: However, considering that there > ARE ways to do so, only the suicidally stupid would actually go through > with something like this. All it takes is a decent check digit from any of > two or three angels, and you've got big big problems. Exactly. > Still, would angels be in the habit of asking celestials they meet on the > street to assume celestial form? Or is this a social faux pas? Here's the easiest way to think of it: Asking someone to assume celestial form is like asking someone their name, then demanding ID to verify it. Sometimes you'd be crazy NOT to do it...sometimes it's just plain rude. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! | "Fuck 'Em If They Can't Take A Joke is more than just a meaningless | | slogan; it's actually a pretty serious statement, and one that I hold | | true to, with a cream pie in one hand and a chainsaw in the other..." | | -- Me | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:49:05 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> My thoughts on the Celestial Tongues >SienarFLT@aol.com wrote: > >What is relevant is that demons do understand the standard angelic tongue, why >don't they understand the one spoken by Vassals of War? Because it is being expressed on the Corporeal Realm, a place wholly alien to its perfect nature. >> I don't understand why mortals would be able to use or understand the demonic >> tongue just because it can be spoken corporeally. As far as I'm concerned, >> they would be lost as to the meaning too. Diabolic can be spoken regularly on the Corporeal realm, and therefore taught. Redneck Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 20:44:00 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP okay, after being on the list for several months, i finally picked up In Nomine, the Angelic Players Guide, the Infernal Players Guide, and the relics book (not gonna even attempt that--i just know i'll mangle the spelling) on Sunday; i'm alternately skimming over and reading closely (or re-reading for further analysis). so far i have a few character concepts forming in my mind, but the most appealing is that of a Bright Lilim. the problem comes from not knowing how to generate said character. i get the distinct impression such characters are possible to start the game as, but, well... here's my confusion: do i generate her as if she were free, with the nine Geas/3's, as if she had been a DP's Servitor, or as if she'd been with an AA all along? the section on page 60 of the main rulebook states that all the Distinctions and Attunements are lost, so i can't see a point to buying and then losing them, unless the character didn't so much pay for them as i just decided for the sake of character background that she'd been a Servitor of Lust, for example, before Redeeming. i get the impression that i'm making this way too complicated. :-\ any and all imput is welcome; thanks in advance. -=|horsefly|=- "All I am after is a just life, at the end of which I can laugh as I die." --ARCADIA OF MY YOUTH, end credits lyrics ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 17:00:44 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> SuperSuperior! On Wed, May 27, 1998 at 03:51:03PM -0500, Martin Leslie Leuschen wrote: > Thing is, I'm not worried that these Uber-Celestials are at the top of > the heap, I'm just surprised they are all using this power to do > "paperwork". There's policy as well, and there may well be good reason for them not to put any of that paperwork down anywhere except in their head. Especially in Hell, where many Superiors may use elaborate disinformation to convince their higher-ranking Servitors that something completely different is going on to what is actually the case. It may well be the case that PC Ops fall into that category. (And if they don't, then there's less reason for Superiors to intervene.) But as for policy, the Superiors see things that their Servitors, no matter how high ranking, don't. They know how their Word is faring on a global (even universal) level, and have a fair idea how best to promote it across the world. So maybe one day Janus looked down at the world and saw that the Spanish-Austrian Hapsburg complex just had to go, and directed his Servitors for individual missions which, if done successfully, would make sure that that was what happened. (And it was all done very subtly, because the last thing he wanted was for Dominic to call him on the carpet for interfering so massively in human affairs, which could result in his intentions getting known to the other side.) And the end result of various mutinies, rebellions, acts of piracy, and so forth was that Spanish imperialism collapsed, despite having resources on a scale dwarfing the other European powers and having a better army. And because of that the Counter Reformation was stopped in its tracks, and Europe would never again have one single ideology. (All this, of course, entirely unrelated to Valefor stealing the sealant from the gunpowder barrels of the Spanish Armada. And all those freak storms which saved England from Continental invasion throughout history? Pure coincidence.) So yes, I think Superiors are capable of acts of administration beyond the ken of lesser Celestials. Many Sups don't fit the "administrator" persona all that > well. (I can see FurFur, mere hours after becoming a DP, in a totally > thrashed office building, smoldering twisted remains of clerk-servitors > and office supplies strewn about.) That's just one of the risks you have to take when you're near the top. Furfur, of course, probably runs on intuition, but I imagine his intuition is pretty damn good. And I bet he could name all his Tethers and Servitors and operations without pausing to think. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 15:08:21 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> My thoughts on the Celestial Tongues On Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 08:46:29AM -0400, Andrew Frades wrote: > Third, both angels and demons in any form can recognize either celestial > language in any form even if in the case of angels they can not speak it. This > means that by speaking in either celestial language you give away your status. If you sing pidgin-angelic you reveal that you're a Celestial, but that's it. It says nothing about what whether you're an angel or a demon. > It is also implied that angels can not learn the demonic tongue, that there is > something infernal about it, Well they can, but it's dissonant for them to learn it, and it's also dissonant for them to lie in it. This is one of the (many) reasons why missions into Hell are so dangerous. Elohim of the Wind with the Seraph of the Wind attunement probably have it easiest, but it's still hard to get around Hell without lying. perhaps each celestial language is integral to the > celestial side you are on and simply by being an angel you can speak the angelic > tongue and vice versa. If this is true the idea that the language is not > learned but innate is an interesting one. > Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 07:18:19 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Choirness question At 17:41 01/06/98 -0400, you wrote: >Alloni Kramer wrote: > >> >> [...] How well >> known are the Choir/Superior attunements? If someone meets an Ofanite of >> Fire, does the little box which says "Immune to fire, heat, and radiation" >> immediately light up in their head? How about the other attunements? If >> you meet a servitor of Marc, would you know enough to ask them if they can >> write binding contracts? > > There's a reason you're a celestial on Corporeal duty. Your perceptions >have (presumably) been tried and trusted. To survive, you -have- to be able >to pick out the little details that could expose Grandma Shoemaker down in the >corner cottage as the essense-sucking Impudite that she is. Knowing >Choir/Band and servitor attunements of the beings you work with and against is >vital to your operations. Actually I don't necessarily think that's the case. Some celestials will be on Special Ops type duty and have to know all of that stuff, but some will be on earth to serve their superior's word amongst the mortals first and foremost. If they are quite young or quite new to the work then I don't think they'd necessarily know that much about what attunements other superiors grant, unless they'd either been specially briefed or had a friend who worked for that superior, or if it was an especially well known or noisy one (like Smite :) ). A youngish celestial who discovers demonic type activity can report it to someone who will know more (and thus the character will learn stuff ICly...) So if the PC has been on earth duty for a while, then they'll be fairly familiar with the most common ones, but I prefer it that a lot of the powers granted by the 'other side' remain a bit shrouded in rumour and hearsay. They can expect the attunements to be related to the Words, but they might not know if the angel of Marc which was cutting a deal was using an attunement or had just been taught by its master to be unnaturally canny, unless they asked and were told. I might even expect an angel/ demon of war to know more about the other side than their own though ;) This is partly because I do _not_ expect all players to memorise all attunements. Even I don't do that! (except possibly if they are playing seraphim of lightning). I also suspect that superiors don't appreciate it if their servitors tell too much about their internal organisation, including complete details of all attunements, to other parties. Of course, hey don't have to find out :) But I'm a politics-junkie. I like it that people are keeping secrets from each other and surprising each other from time to time with unexpected allies or abilities. It keeps things fairly mysterious and allows each PC to be an expert in its own superior's affairs (when compared to the others). I don't much like the idea that many special ops angels would know more about a superior's attunements than it's own servants (although some might). I'd also say that its quite feasible that angels wouldn't reveal their choir/ superior to any old angel they meet. That gives infoprmation that can be used to manipulate them, even by an ally. Some will (PCs tend to :) ), wordbound are fairly easy to find out about (by asking in heaven) so they'll tend to but.. especially if an angel is on an important mission, it might not risk it. jo "Whatever was required to be done, the Circumlocution Office was before hand with all the public departments in the art of perceiving HOW NOT TO DO IT." -- Dickens (Little Dorrit) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:13:48 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> My thoughts on the Celestial Tongues In a message dated 98-06-01 22:33:38 EDT, you write: > Encoding (please don't argue with my definition, I don't want to open > this > can of worms again) as I understand it is a way to change a language so that > only > certain others can understand what you are saying. This is exactly what > Vassals > of War do with their version of the celestial language, many who could > normally > understand it simply can not any more. They don't have the proper code book, > so > to speak. Your definition is a good one and I wouldn't argue with that (no cans of worm opened there anyway). I was just wondering where the notion of encoding comes from. The entry of Vassal of War doesn't mention it. As a matter of fact it says that any angel within earshot can understand it, but they just can't respond. There is no encoding going on as far as I can tell, that is unless there is something in another book that I'm missing; I'm only looking at the main rulebook right now. Thanks for the clarification BTW. -- Thom Dawson (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) "Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god Superior to themselves. Most gods have the Manners and morals of a spoiled child." -- Lazarus Long. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 07:54:48 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP - -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > do i generate her as if she were free, with the nine Geas/3's, as > if she had been a DP's Servitor, or as if she'd been with an AA all along? > the section on page 60 of the main rulebook states that all the > Distinctions and Attunements are lost, so i can't see a point to buying > and then losing them, unless the character didn't so much pay for them as > i just decided for the sake of character background that she'd been a > Servitor of Lust, for example, before Redeeming. > i get the impression that i'm making this way too complicated. :-\ > any and all imput is welcome; thanks in advance. In my opinion you are definitely making it way too complicated :). My understanding is that you would make the character as if it were a free and then give it an Angelic Superior. Done. Somewhere out there are a number of Bright Lilim attunements for the various Superiors (non-canon, but good stuff) and some ideas as to how your character might have been treated as it tried to redeem. I would look this up, I think it is off of the SJgames.com IN site in the resources area. All this aside I would talk to your GM before going too deep, they might have other ideas. Peace, Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:25:50 -0700 From: "Gerry Mckelvey" Subject: [none] I have a question about the the marches...if I read the source book right, then just about anything that mankind has ever dreamed of is *somewhere* in the marches...not just the good things but the bad things too...if they have the essence, then they can cross into earth. could pseudo-demons or devils form from the collective unconscious of the marches? by that, I mean could archtypical 'things from beyond' gain a foothold on earth and become a threat to both sides in the War? Just a thought on a 'mixed' campaign...I'm trying to get as much use out of my Call of Cthuluthu books as I can... Any suggestions or thoughts on that are very welcome.. thanks. Jerry McKelvey Exitus Acta Probat. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:04:55 -0400 From: Robb Kidd Subject: Re: IN> Choirness question Jo Hart wrote: > [...] > So if the PC has been on earth duty for a while, then they'll be fairly > familiar with the most common ones, but I prefer it that a lot of the > powers granted by the 'other side' remain a bit shrouded in rumour and > hearsay. They can expect the attunements to be related to the Words, but > they might not know if the angel of Marc which was cutting a deal was using > an attunement or had just been taught by its master to be unnaturally > canny, unless they asked and were told. [...] This was what I was trying to say. Really. I'd had too much caffeine yesterday to write coherantly. I didn't mean, even for the Special Ops types of characters/campaigns, that PCs would be aware of various attunements' limitations, durations, ranges. Just because you know that fella can kill you twelve different ways with a popsicle stick don't mean you know -how- he does it - -- it just means if he's got a sucker, you have a few moments to run. > [...] I don't much like the idea that many special ops angels would know > more about a superior's attunements than it's own servants (although some > might). Naw. I don't much like that either. > I'd also say that its quite feasible that angels wouldn't reveal their > choir/ superior to any old angel they meet. That gives infoprmation that > can be used to manipulate them, even by an ally. [...] Also, true. For more experienced celestials, learning the abilities of the beings your fighting for and against can help you get this information. S'what I meant. I wouldn't expect Joe Angel who makes the grass grow to know the details of the abilities Nybbas grants his boys. Though he might've heard that there are some kooky diabolicals who seem to strut when walking down the street ... almost as though some sort of theme song were playing in the background. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:40:30 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Choirness question At 2:12 PM -0400 6/1/98, Alloni Kramer wrote: >Let's say you're wandering down the street, and a guy springs out in front >of you, and says, "Hi! I'm Bobiel!" > >Presume you have one of the little bells or whistles that go "ding!" when >you see an angel of some kind. > >If you get in casual conversation with them, about how long do you think it >would take to guess that Bobiel is a Mercurian, Seraph, whatever? Can you >think of anything you would say to them that would elicit some specific >response depending on what Choir they belong to? How about their Superior? > >Also, is any of this kept secret? In the demonic tale in In Nomine, >whats-his-face indicated some desire to keep his Superior secret. Is this >only on the demonic side? When you are meeting another angel for the first >time, do you immediately say, "Hi. I'm Stan, a Malakite of Janus. Run >like the Wind," or is it more, "Hi. I'm Stan. I'm a Kyrio," or even, >"Hi. I'm Stan. Nyah nyah."? Depends. In the IRC Game I'm involved in, most of the characters mentioned what they were by the first Session. In a Feast of Blades PbEM that we've been playing since...well, almost since Feast of Blades came out, Things have been a bit more secretive. Choirs haven't been mentioned by anyone, and only one character has revealed his superior to everybody. When angels meet angels most of the time, Choir tends to be obvious, but only because Angels meet Angels most often in Heaven. Mercurians tend to be able to pick Superior out of your head at the drop of a CD 3. "Hm. Geographical Origin is the Eternal City, and Cultural Origin is a stratified military state that places high emphasis on obedience, duty, and honor. I'm guessing you work for Laurence." And a Seraph resonancing you on the introduction can pull down the whole Truth, anyway. Usually, if you're being ordered to work with someone, formal, thourough introductions will be made And to me, it just seems rude if someone introduces themselves to you with Choir and Superior, and you don't respond in kind. But that's just me. > >Oh, and disturbance. Does anybody have a home-brewed system for it that >does not require a scientific calculator and a Doctorate in Mathematics? The In Nomine Collection 2 has a large table that cross-indexed Disturbance Magnitude and Celestial Forces, run off by Walt Mazur. Said table gave for such Celestials the Par Distance, and the Basic distance for Disturbances of varying magnitude. The Basic Distance was the increment at which the penalty increased by -1, and the Par Distance was the distance at which the modifier to hear the disturbance was +0. Can't remember the URL to the In Nomine Collection 2, but Paul F. Strack's In Nomine Collection 2 should still have a link on the In Nomine Collection at http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles = http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh ============== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Monty, Lilim Captain of Media, the Demon of Game Shows ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 14:06 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim character creation--HELP > do i generate her as if she were free, with the nine Geas/3's, as >if she had been a DP's Servitor, or as if she'd been with an AA all along? It depends on the character history. If she was Free before redemption, then she'll still owe Lilith (and maybe others) some Geases. If she was bound to a DP, then she doesn't *have* to have any outstanding Geases, though it's fairly likely she'll have some, given Lilim psychology. In this one case, I'd allow Geases to count as normal Discord (worth 3/level) -- they are going to be owed to the demonic side, which makes them unusually troublesome.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #803 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.