From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jun 5 13:09:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA24489 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:09:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA20175 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:43:19 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:43:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199806051743.MAA20175@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #809 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, June 5 1998 Volume 01 : Number 809 In this digest: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) IN> Career Paths for Diabloic Servants (was Re: IN> supporting cast) IN> Undead, Soul Extinction, Essence Mining and Saminga Re: IN> Re: IN- Plot device Re: IN> Undead, Soul Extinction, Essence Mining and Saminga Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial IN> Word Forces IN> Word Forces Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Re: IN> Christopher, Zadkiel, Others (was Bright Lilim character creation) IN> Recruiting Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Re: IN> Arthurian legend and other questions Re: IN> Cthulhu in the Marches Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) IN> Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Re: IN> Christopher, Zadkiel, Others (was Bright Lilim character creation) Re: IN> Re: IN- Plot device IN> Yet another Sorcerer question... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 11:41:36 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Hi, Suppose we have a bog-standard angel carrying a mobile phone on his belt, and a Kyrio of Jean inside the phone. The angel goes celestial; what happens to the Kyrio? For that matter, what happens when a Kyrio of Jean leaves a small host (less than 3 Forces' worth), and has all but one of his Forces tied up elsewhere? Clearly it can't manifest a celestial form, but does *some* aspect of the Kyrio hang around? And can a Kyrio, with hosts all over the place, possibly in different countries, give up a whole bunch (say four or five) and *immediately* use those Forces to jump into some human elsewhere (say, next to one of its remaining hosts)? Sam - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew has moved: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 07:25:20 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Sam Kington wrote: > Hi, > > Suppose we have a bog-standard angel carrying a mobile phone on his > belt, and a Kyrio of Jean inside the phone. The angel goes celestial; > what happens to the Kyrio? Just my opinion here but I would guess that since the phone does not have a physical form anymore and the Kyriotate was inhabiting the physical form the angel is ejected. > For that matter, what happens when a Kyrio of Jean leaves a small host > (less than 3 Forces' worth), and has all but one of his Forces tied up > elsewhere? Clearly it can't manifest a celestial form, but does *some* > aspect of the Kyrio hang around? And can a Kyrio, with hosts all over > the place, possibly in different countries, give up a whole bunch (say > four or five) and *immediately* use those Forces to jump into some human > elsewhere (say, next to one of its remaining hosts)? I would say that no "piece" of the Kyriotate is hanging around. Forces unused by a Kyriotate to possess things are simply potential not necessarily anything else at all. For that matter if the Kyriotate leaves something that it was inhabiting with five forces it does not need to go celestial there at all as long as it has another host. As far as giving up other hosts to inhabit a new one that is somehow within range so to speak, of course. Its what they do. Normal resonance rules apply and it might leave the Kyriotate in a nasty spot and might require them to assume celestial form in-between (if it has no other hosts) but sure, they can do stuff like that. Kyriotate are at once my favorite and least favorite choir, they sometimes give me the creeps. Then of course is their alternate number, the Shedim, they really give me the creeps. Andrew Who might be a Kyriotate of Dream, but definitely will never fall because he would hate to give himself the creeps. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 07:40:11 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) Walter Milliken wrote: > I don't know whether Tethers will go up for general playtest or not, but > as you point out, there's no real reason why it couldn't be. Not My > Decision.... As far as Tethers go, I would love to help out and if the playtest rules for them end up on Pyrimid I will of course download them and offer comment. If they don't it would be no sweat, for the most part the IN writers deserve pats on the back for doing a tremendous job, not so much for the rules but for the wonderful color that they add to the game. Rules are definitely secondary to mindset and background. > However, I may post little pieces and ask for comments here and there. > >From the last round of discussion, I got the impression that most of the > people here favored the concept of Word Forces, at least. If that is what the writers in general feel then I would like to go on record as being against the concept. I don't generally comment on things I don't agree with and/or like. This definitely falls strongly in that category. I see it as an unnecessary mechanic added to a rules light system that grants you little beside another place to sink character points. Word bound characters can be done with the game system as is without any problems. They have new and interesting attunements and have many more ways to gain extra essence. That alone makes them tougher if that is the aim. If Word Forces end up being a way to have PCs eat character points then I think we as GMs are not doing our jobs. Part of our job is to limit characters so that they stay within range of each other, a single force can be a massive jump in power for a character (trust me, I've seen it in my game) and a few forces can be an order of magnitude. Openning up characters to new attunements, offering them other options such as NPCs willing to teach them interesting new songs, and allowing them to purchase artifacts are great ways to eat character points. If GMs are particularly worried about players getting to many character points I have only one thing to say, you did it too yourself. If you have a problem with how fast your PCs are advancing, award less character points. Instead of the guidelines in the book try awarding one per adventure (not session) plus one if the major goals of the adventure were met, plus one for extraordinary success (such as your superior taking a shining to you). This leaves you at about 2 per adventure. That's not so fast. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 22:20:19 From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Career Paths for Diabloic Servants (was Re: IN> supporting cast) >Andrew Frades Wrote > >One little problem with all of this... When an undead dies he/she is >dead for good. No soul going on to its eternal reward/punishment, >nothing. The Undead's celestial forces are bound up into the corporeal >there is no soul to be loosed and thus no soul to save. > >Once you buy a prize it is yours to keep. I know I've said this before, but I do have apersonal problem with this and I'll try to illustrate. A small thought experiment. A uniquely honest demon appears to you and points out in no uncertain terms that you are an Evil Person. He suggests that you might as well work directly for Hell, and cash in on the extra benefits, rather than just fiddle around the edges. He goes on to outline for you the three major options possible to a recruit to the Diabolic. 1. Soldier of Hell. You get access to possible power and privilege as well as becoming part of a power structure that has some limited interest in your welfare, as long as you support it’s aims. You live no longer than you would otherwise and when you die you to go to Hell and suffer excruciating torment for all eternity. 2. Sorcerer. You get access to the possibility of great powers, however every time you attempt to increase your powers you could go straight to Hell and suffer excruciating torment for all eternity. You live no longer than you would otherwise and when you die you go to Hell and suffer excruciating torment for all eternity. 3. Undeath. You gain immediate supernatural powers, plus possible additional power and privilege as well as becoming part of a power structure that has some limited interest in your welfare, as long as you support it’s aims. You may have to deal with unnatural needs to maintain your existence, but otherwise you will live until you are physically killed and when you die your essential being will cease to exist, and you DO NOT go to Hell and suffer excruciating torment for all eternity. He gives you three chances to choose the best option. Which do you prefer? Thanking you for your indulgence. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 22:22:38 From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Undead, Soul Extinction, Essence Mining and Saminga Dear List I have always been a bit hinkey about the extinction of the soul when an Undead dies, it seems too much like a get out of Hell free card to me, but reading some of the recent posts it suddenly tied in with a couple of other things that maybe everyone else already figured out. Saminga looks pretty powerful, after all Death is everywhere, you could debate how much of it is Bad or Diabolic Death and how much is Good Death, but that’s for another time. His Corporeal servants tend to be powerful and obviously so, but he doesn’t have the Essence to smeg all and sundry on the Celestial Planes, because if he did have the Essence he would just do it. Hell gains Essence from the Souls of the Damned and the Princes vie to get the most Souls under their thumb, presumably by influencing the individuals to Damnation through their Word. It seems possible that the more deeply steeped in Sin the Damned and the more powerful in Will, the more Essence they have to be harvested. In purely game terms any Soul with higher Forces is going to be a good catch. Saminga might get a lot of Souls for basically no effort. Contemplating imminent Death brings all mortals to review the state of their Souls and many might slip to Damnation through despair. However the prime Souls are those of Soldiers and others who have increased their Forces. Any Soldier of Hell is almost certainly bound for Damnation and continues to serve the Infernal in Hell by providing a good source of Essence, unless they were Undead in which case they just evapourate. This means Saminga’s strong Undead Soldiers do him no good once they are dead and gives another good reason why the other Demon Princes choose to make less Undead and bank on a sure growth of high quality Essence donators to make up for the turnover of Soldiers. After all a Damned Soul in Hell is there until the War is finished, at least, while even the lifespan of the longest lived Undead is a blink of Lucifer’s eye. Thanking you for your indulgence. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 22:30:56 From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Plot device At 08:05 PM 4/6/98 +0100, >Steve wrote: > >Malakim are scary not just because they are combat monsters, but because >if you don't kill them, they will never let off you, and if you do kill >them they and their friends will never let off you. What's the line from the Terminator. "It's what he does, It's all he does, and he _absolutely_ _positively_ WILL NOT STOP until you are dead." Or words to that effect. Oh BTW, Happy 150th aniversry of the Communist Manifesto. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au May the Goddess shelter you in the palm of her hand until we meet again. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:12:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Undead, Soul Extinction, Essence Mining and Saminga > Saminga looks pretty powerful, after all Death is everywhere, you could > debate how much of it is Bad or Diabolic Death and how much is Good Death, > but that’s for another time. His Corporeal servants tend to be powerful > and obviously so, but he doesn’t have the Essence to smeg all and sundry on > the Celestial Planes, because if he did have the Essence he would just do it. This is probably just me, and a point of semantics, but I see Saminga as the Demon Prince of the Dead, which is different then the Demon Prince of Death. He doesn't have dominion over the dying and the act of death, that I hand to the Archangel Eli (with Creation comes Destruction, there comes a time for even the stars above to die...) who is righteously incredibly powerful. I give to Saminga the rotting corpses filled with maggots which are left behind in the ground long after the Soul has moved on; I give him dominion over death camps and firing squads and the gallows and mad serial killers who revel in the dead and whose minds cannot comprehend life, but I do not give him power over death itself. Saminga is no Grim Reaper - he is what is left behind after Judgment has come and gone. His dominion is empty corpses, and even his Soldiers are just that - dead animated bodies. Now, this limits him nicely. He gets death rites and satanists and mass burials, but he doesn't get essence every time someone dies. He has no power over the act of someone dying, he only has what is left after they are gone. - - Em Current Quote: "You can lead a Seraph to holy pizza, but you can't make him eat!" - Maxwell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 09:35:41 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Sam Kington wrote: > > Hi, > > Suppose we have a bog-standard angel carrying a mobile phone on his > belt, and a Kyrio of Jean inside the phone. The angel goes celestial; > what happens to the Kyrio? Depending on how the GM does things involving vessels you have two possibilities (I've flip-flopped on this personally, so take your pick). If a vessel is allowed to have _no_ items when it gets put back into 'storage' you have no problem. The phone (and any clothes the angel was wearing) just drop to the ground. If the vessel can take with it a few pounds of personal items (this is the more standard interpretation), then the vessel and the clothes but NOT the phone vanishes. Why is this? Because, at that moment, the phone is a _vessel_ and can't be jerked around like that. If you substitute 'mouse' for 'phone' it might be clearer. > For that matter, what happens when a Kyrio of Jean leaves a small host > (less than 3 Forces' worth), and has all but one of his Forces tied up > elsewhere? Clearly it can't manifest a celestial form, but does *some* > aspect of the Kyrio hang around? And can a Kyrio, with hosts all over > the place, possibly in different countries, give up a whole bunch (say > four or five) and *immediately* use those Forces to jump into some human > elsewhere (say, next to one of its remaining hosts)? Yes. That's what they do. Annoying, ain't it? ;) Here's a question (esp. to Beth and the rest of the brain-trust). What do you think should happen when a Kyrio of Jean tries to use an _artifact_ as a vessel? My take is that they _can_ do it, but it requires a number of forces equal to the highest level of the artifact. If the artifact has a Will, then a resistance roll is possible by the artifact. If the artifact is being held/wielded/worn, then the owner can spend either his own Essence or the Essence of the artifact (if any) to resist the invasion attempt. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 09:38:34 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Andrew Frades wrote: > > Sam Kington wrote: > > For that matter, what happens when a Kyrio of Jean leaves a small host > > (less than 3 Forces' worth), and has all but one of his Forces tied up > > elsewhere? Clearly it can't manifest a celestial form, but does *some* > > aspect of the Kyrio hang around? And can a Kyrio, with hosts all over > > the place, possibly in different countries, give up a whole bunch (say > > four or five) and *immediately* use those Forces to jump into some human > > elsewhere (say, next to one of its remaining hosts)? > > I would say that no "piece" of the Kyriotate is hanging around. Forces > unused by a Kyriotate to possess things are simply potential not necessarily > anything else at all. For that matter if the Kyriotate leaves something > that it was inhabiting with five forces it does not need to go celestial > there at all as long as it has another host. Yes. The 'remaining' Forces of the Kyrio is merely the potentiality to possess something. It doesn't 'float' around like some sort of pseudo-celestial form! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:36:30 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Word Forces >I'm not sure I like Word Forces - it upsets the nice balance of the Forces, I think. What is it in a word that's beyond the Corporeal, Ethereal and Celestial? I'm not sure the benefits of Word Forces is worth upsetting that balance. Couldn't the greater power of Word-bound Celestials be modelled in some other way? Attunements only available to Word-bounds perhaps? "You can store X extra Essence" where X depends on how strong the Word is in the world. Different attunements for the creation of Vessels, granting of Rites, and so on.< This is more in line with what I'd like to see for the Word-bound -- give them special attunements and extra reserves of Essence that they can call upon. A Word-bound with a very powerful Word might not have all that many Forces, but when the PCs take him on, they discover that he _does_ have a hundred points of Essence socked away for emergencies like them.... adding Essence management rules is more complex than Word Forces, but (I think) more elegant, and much more customizable. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:43:58 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Word Forces >>>Thomas...uh, we weren't talking about giving Superiors stats. We were talking about how to handle Word-Bound PCs and NPCs...ya know, the normal 9-18 Force ones.<<< Word Forces are pertinent to what he was saying, though, because quantifying the value of a Word is akin to quantifying the value of a Superior, just on a smaller scale. For practical reasons, some sort of quantification probably will be necessary (at least for the former), but I think Thomas's point was valid. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 15:06:40 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > If the vessel can take with it a few pounds of personal > items (this is the more standard interpretation), then the vessel > and the clothes but NOT the phone vanishes. Why is this? Because, > at that moment, the phone is a _vessel_ and can't be jerked around > like that. If you substitute 'mouse' for 'phone' it might be > clearer. That works for me. BTW, what happens when you Celestial Motion an angel carrying a KoJ phone - does the phone go too? I had that situation crop up last Tuesday - demons faced with an angry Malakite of the Sword, Balseraph with Celestial Motion/6 put 7 Essence into yanking the Malakite into the middle of a furnace (he'd previously explored lots of unhelpful places like 100ft underwater, in the middle of an Underground tunnel, that sort of thing, in Celestial form). Happily the Malakite had Holy Fortitude, so was able to stay alive long enough to get out, get on a bike, rush back with a can of gasoline and attempt to blow himself up taking the demons with him. No fault of his that, while swerving to avoid someone's Celestial Light, he rolled a 666. Bike swerves, hits a car, Malakite goes flying into mid-air, gasoline *ignites*, and suddenly it's raining Malakite. Everyone in the area is suddenly covered with chunks of dead angel - which promptly vanish as the Malakite doesn't have to suffer Trauma ;-). > What do you think should happen when a > Kyrio of Jean tries to use an _artifact_ as a vessel? My impression was they could only inhabit man-made objects. Sam - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew has moved: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 09:52:59 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Christopher, Zadkiel, Others (was Bright Lilim character creation) At 1:16 AM -0400 6/4/98, Jo Hart wrote: >At 19:27 03/06/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >>Magog, Shedite DP of Cruelty, will be in... Final Trumpet. >> > > >Not a Habbalite? Wow. Guess it makes a kind of sense. Habbalite cruelty has to be rationalized. "It's for the greater good. It is the will of God. You are being punished for your sins." Shedite cruelty, on the other hand, is just plain fun. For the Shedite, anyway. I can see him having a lot of Habbalite servitors, but they just don't "get it." "It's not about punishment, it's not about repentance. It's about me having fun, and if it includes a few thumbscrews, some flaying, and a bit of disembowelment now and then, good. If you don't like it, feel free to complain in loud, guttural, and bloodcurdling screams." I just pity all the poor Demons who've been locked in with Magog for the last few thousand years. = http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh ============== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Anya, Balseraph Baron of Theft, the Demon of Impersonation ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:23:54 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Recruiting Peter wrote: > He gives you three chances to choose the best option. Which do you prefer? *** (OH DEAR. SUDDENLY ALL BECOMES CLEAR. I THINK PERHAPS A FEW HELPFUL POINTERS ON RECRUITMENT MIGHT BE IN ORDER, MY DEAR, LEST SOME OF SAMINGA'S SERVITORS BECOME... OVERENTHUSIASTIC. 'You got it, dread lord!' ) *** _Recruitment and Training of Mortals_ (or 'You just can't get the staff these days') My congratulations, I understand that you have been given permission to seek out a mortal ally to obey your commands, perform your errands, devote their time to serving your best interests and ultimately to give their life, love and possessions at the merest crook of your little finger. In short, you have been permitted to recruit a servant. You will already be aware of the uses of mortal aides in the corporeal world. Their actions are silent, they are not bound by dissonance in the manner of our bands and as corporeal creatures they have an innate understanding of their own realm. They exist to be used. They exist to do our bidding. Their only freedom is the freedom to choose a side. Any mortal can be a useful pawn. They can be taught relevant skills at a later stage, but it is worth catching them young if this is your intention. Visit their dreams, offering glimpses of hells glories and also its torments, and haunt their families. Mortals will serve you for one of several reasons, so you will need to briefly study your mortal to work out the best approach. The most usual are: a) those who serve through fear Recruitment is by cowing the mortal into submission. Make it clear to them that you are an all-powerful and immortal being whose wrath is to be feared. Hint in glowingly vague detail of the scourges you apply to those who cross you. Make it clear that by serving, their enemies will become your enemies -- with the stick, do not forget the carrot. The underpinning of your message is 'The only safety for you and yours lies in doing my bidding absolutely and without question.' Describe the fires and torments of hell in enthusiastic detail, with lavish portraits of what awaits the damned, which they most certainly are. Then add, as an afterthought, that naturally the punishments are lessened for those who have shown willing to serve in life. Let them grovel at your feet and _beg_ to be allowed to serve you. Punish them frequently once they are in your service, to show them that you still care and have not forgotten. b) those who serve through love Seduction and charm are time-honoured recruitment methods and work as well now as they ever did. Tell them that you are an all-powerful and immortal being whose heart has been touched by their winning personality and sexual athleticism. Smother their moral qualms with sensuality. Answer their ethical queries with kisses. Steal their souls with silver, and tell them lies about the world which is to come, and that you will be there with them eternally (this is technically not a lie, of course). Show them how they can make you happy; by obeying you in all things... c) those who serve through power-lust This is another traditional lure by which mortals are brought into the service of hell. Show them that you are an all-powerful and immortal being with powers beyond their wildest imaginings, and explain how some small fraction of that power and benificence may be theirs. The price? At the beginning it is nothing. Some small and undemanding detail which is richly rewarded. Allow them to hear of soldiers, or even the undead, without being specific and let their imaginations get to work. If the mortal is aging then speak to them about death and what lies after, the power that awaits a valuable servant in hell. d) those who serve through disbelief, boredom or apathy Less a product of the modern age than any think, always there have been some who through over-indulgent parenting, a dissolute nature or desire to shock, have become bored with what the corporeal world has to offer and seek their thrills in playing the greatest Game of all. More modern servants of this ilk will answer the question 'Why did you choose to serve hell?' with a shrug and a 'why not?' or 'because it was there!' Present yourself as an enigmatic but all-powerful immortal being who has access to knowledge which they can only dream of, and can offer excitement and adventure of a nature unknown to the rank and file mortal. Tell them that hell is largely a product of myth, an outdated illusion which has cast you and yours in a bad light. Make it clear that you are thoroughly supernatural and if they turn down your offer then it is likely that they will never get the chance again, will never know what might have happened... If still they waver, scorn them for their fear and dare them to show some courage and take some risks. e) those who serve through necessity Some there are who serve through careful balancing of the alternatives, perhaps in return for a favour for some friend or family member. These are willing pawns to the sacrifice. Remind them frequently of the necessity that brought them to your service, and after they have entered it, remind them that serving hell is a one-way journey. f) those who serve out of a true desire to do evil and forward the purposes of hell. These are the truest of true self-deceivers, and should one approach you, be as the shy fawn to the hunter. Let them stalk, and plead and beg for but a moment of your time before you skittishly smile, make some small comment which confirms their suspicions, and then find some excuse to leave. When you tire of the game, make as impressive an entrance as you are able, with all the spectacle one would expect from an all-powerful and immortal being in the service of the lightbringer. There are some in this category who have already dabbled in sorcery and will know more about the true nature of hell than you are expecting -- these may offer deals. Consider offering a brief argument and allowing yourself to be 'tricked' into the deal. As soon as any mortal has done any work for hell, you are in a position to inform them that they are now irrevocably damned, deal or no deal, so if they wish to have an easier time in the afterlife, they had better learn quickly who is the servant and who is the master. True Dogma to tell your new servant: 1. Hell can be quite nasty for the rank-and-file damned, but it is a true meritocracy where Rank Hath It's Privileges. The privileges are of course reserved for loyal and faithful servants... 2. Power is not always shackled by responsibility. Less True Dogma to tell your new servant: 1. I was once where you are now. (Hah! As if!) 2. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. 3. You're already irrevocably damned so why not make life easier on yourself? I have taken the liberty of repeating one mantra -- that of telling your servant frequently that they are irrevocably damned. Why is this so necessary? I have seen and heard of servants who repented of their deeds even on their death-bed and whose souls were stolen away from our grip by the host even before their bodies cooled. When this happens, the Game does investigate the incompetent demon who let a sure hellbound soul escape their grip. The rest can be filled in by your imagination. Do not let it happen to you! _Recruiting Soldiers and Undead_ Never offer your servant a choice about which powers they will most generously be granted. Let them cry gratitude for every scrap of knowledge which you are willing to give them, true or otherwise. If, through years of faithful service, you are sufficiently impressed as to forwards their name as a potential soldier or undead servant, then let them be duly grateful for this also. More powerful servants of this type have many uses, but are generally considered slightly less disposable. If you want disposable servants, bear this in mind. Undeath is sought by many, but attained by few. The fear of death runs strong in mortals, and with good reason. Their fear brings them towards the pit, and should be encouraged. An undead servitor is stronger, tougher and more powerful than a normal mortal and can be freely used for tasks which require such skills -- however it is not uncommon for them to develop and even more acute fear of death than they might have had before. In many ways, it is easier to lure a mortal into your service via the corporeal song of entropy, which also ensures that hell retains their soul for eternity and gives you the leeway to continue to remind them of the death from old age which surely awaits if they should ever consider leaving your side. An undead is capable of being more independent, but frankly I hardly feel that it is worth the effort. When hinting at such possibilities, be sure to give away as little of the specifics as possible. Mortals work best when they are kept in the dark. *** jo, Impudite of the Game, Fashion Police, Archfiend-in-Training *** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 10:49:43 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Sam Kington wrote: > > What do you think should happen when a > > Kyrio of Jean tries to use an _artifact_ as a vessel? > > My impression was they could only inhabit man-made objects. Well, it says 'Corporeal objects' which would disallow anything without a corporeal form (yes, there are artifacts that _only_ exist in the ethereal and celestial realms). Nothing is said about man-made or the creator of the thing in any way. Plus, non-celestials _can_ make artifacts. Including humans. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 08:05:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Shumaker Subject: Re: IN> Arthurian legend and other questions On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Matthias Müller wrote: #Hi all, # #I'm about to start a mythic-flavoured IN-campaign playing in Great Britain, # Like they have said before there isnt any IN historical, but that is just as well as it frees your head to go where you want. I believe that someone suggested GURPS Camelot. Along with that (even though it is a bit later), I would suggest GURPS Middle Ages a book I hear is very hard to come by however. Historical IN campaigns seem to be the way to go for me. I decided on a Reformation aged IN (couldn't resist the religious turmoil thang). Plus, its always fun to drop little hints or clues to insinuate that certain historical figures where Symphonically Aware(tm). - -Jim Shumaker ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:58:42 +0200 (MET DST) From: cd skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> Cthulhu in the Marches On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 8:25 AM -0700 6/2/98, Gerry Mckelvey wrote: > >if they have > >the essence, then they can cross into earth. could pseudo-demons or devils > >form from the collective unconscious of the marches? > > They could, but keep in mind that anything that comes out of the > collective unconscious is probably weaker than the hungry Ethereals > who already exist. Dread Cthulhu, in canon, probably gets hunted > down by the Wild Hunt and eaten for the Essence it possesses. Or Dread Cthulhu was already ensconed in the Far Marches/R'lyeh under the Sea, and mere tendrils of his dreams seeped into the thoughts of a certain New England horror author, who then influenced a number of others and inspired nightmares in countless (because nobody knows how many has read HPL) others, feeding Essence to the Big C, easing Him (or It?) into the collective unconscious of humanity through the furthering of Mythos elements in the strangest places. Wow. That's one long sentence. /cd, in Calabite of Belial mode tonight. BBQ and gasoline! - -- d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se | cd skogsberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 12:19:20 -0400 From: Thomas Davidson Subject: Re: Word Forces (was Re: IN> Placing credit) Pee Kitty wrote: > > On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Thomas Davidson wrote: > > > > I don't *want* stats for Superiors. I think it cheapens their > > profundity. > > > Thomas...uh, we weren't talking about giving Superiors stats. > > We were talking about how to handle Word-Bound PCs and NPCs...ya know, the > normal 9-18 Force ones. > Superiors *are* Word-bound... just on a scale much higher than the normal "Word-Bound PCs and NPCs". This discussion about Word-Bound and Word Forces grew out of the discussion a week or so ago about stats for Superiors. I almost wish now that I had kept those messages instead of deleting them every couple of weeks as has been my habit since joining this list. - -- Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us http://wwp.mirabilis.com/7789233/ UIN: 7789233 http://www.accessdenied.net/cgi-bin/main.cgi?userid=326&newuser=profile MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, the Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, the Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 09:33:40 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Kyrios of Jean and going celestial Yes, but this is the Kyriotate of Jean attunement we're talking about, here. Here are, I think, two obvious restrictions to inhabiting a corporeal object: 1. It must be a man-made powered device (covers a lot, these days). This means that things like books and pencils are not covered. Sorry. 2. Object must be mundane. If it's an artifact, forget it. These two rules should keep the attunement from becoming unbalancing. If you think about it, being able to possess a machine like IBM's mainframe is pretty powerful already. >From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC >> My impression was they could only inhabit man-made objects. > > Well, it says 'Corporeal objects' which would >disallow anything without a corporeal form (yes, there >are artifacts that _only_ exist in the ethereal and >celestial realms). Nothing is said about man-made or >the creator of the thing in any way. > Plus, non-celestials _can_ make artifacts. >Including humans. Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 17:49:50 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Christopher, Zadkiel, Others (was Bright Lilim character creation) On Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 09:52:59AM -0400, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > Guess it makes a kind of sense. Habbalite cruelty has to be > rationalized. "It's for the greater good. It is the will of God. You are > being punished for your sins." Shedite cruelty, on the other hand, is just > plain fun. For the Shedite, anyway. > Ah, but do you know what it means? That none of the Habbalite Superiors so far seen have a Word related to emotion. This is, quite frankly, bizarre, especially given the sheer number of Words related to emotion that have Superiors. Anyway, Habbalah are damned good at rationalisation, and I'm sure Habbalah of Cruelty could rationalise any amount of it. Even if they don't technically deserve it, it'll do them good. > I just pity all the poor Demons who've been locked in with Magog > for the last few thousand years. > I have a theory that every so often he disassembles them for parts and makes new Servitors with those parts, just out of sheer boredom and a desire to find new victims. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Cruelty. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:19:28 -0700 From: "Gerry Mckelvey" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Plot device > Oh BTW, Happy 150th aniversry of the Communist Manifesto. > > Regards, Peter. You're celebrating the anniversary of one of the most self-destructive philosophies ever to come out of a drunken stupor? must be a belseraph... hmmm....communist manifesto as diabolic plot....maybe we could blame them for the moonies too.... Jerry McKelvey Exitus Acta Probat. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:22:24 -0700 From: "Gerry Mckelvey" Subject: IN> Yet another Sorcerer question... I don't know if this was mentioned in the rules or not, but.... can sorcerers learn songs like regular soldiers? Do they have to be taught them from a demon or can they summon something from the marches and beat it out of them? seems like that if they could, it might make them pretty tough soldiers... Can undead become sorcerers? *that* is an interesting thought... Jerry McKelvey Exitus Acta Probat. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #809 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.