From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jun 11 13:53:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA32140 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:53:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA20038 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:20:22 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:20:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199806111820.NAA20038@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #819 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, June 11 1998 Volume 01 : Number 819 In this digest: IN> Re: IN- Newbie Nattering Re: IN> Newbie Nattering Re: IN> Newbie Nattering Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia IN> Other Religions in In Nomine IN> Communism=Evil? Re: IN> Communism=Evil? IN> Just a touch-base... Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? IN> Animals? Re: IN> Animals? Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: IN> Animals? Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Re: IN> Communism=Evil? Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Communism=Evil? Re: IN> Communism=Evil? Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? IN> Thoughts on Immortality - plot seed Re: IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia IN> New Discord for Lilim: Prepayment Clause Re: IN> Animals? Re: IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia IN> Buddhist In Nomine Revised ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:06:56 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Newbie Nattering In Nomine Collection at http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/index.html >From: Afterburner > >>Have you checked out Dark VIctory yet? (It's on the INC) > > INC? > > I'm guessing the "IN" in "INC" stands for In Nomine, but the "C" >part has me stumped... > > AB > (Keeping an eye peeled for moderators...) > Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:19:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Newbie Nattering > >Have you checked out Dark VIctory yet? (It's on the INC) > > INC? > > I'm guessing the "IN" in "INC" stands for In Nomine, but the "C" > part has me stumped... > > AB > (Keeping an eye peeled for moderators...) In Nomine Collection. http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/. There are about 200 articles there, give or take a handful. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:01:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Newbie Nattering At 5:26 PM -0400 6/10/98, Afterburner wrote: >>Have you checked out Dark VIctory yet? (It's on the INC) > > INC? > > I'm guessing the "IN" in "INC" stands for In Nomine, but the "C" >part has me stumped... In Nomine Collection: http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:24:48 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? > This might seem strange, but I was wondering if anyone runs Demons as the > villians anymore? From alot of discussion about games on this list it seems > more in fashion to present them as anything ranging from tragic heroes to > just misunderstood neutrals. Lilim and Servants of Dark Humour seem to get > this "lightening up" treatment the most. Though I've only run a few sessions of IN, I'm very happy to make Demons into the Bad Guys. To me, it seems the whole point - angels are Good, demons are Bad, end of story. Not to say you can't run a game with sympathetic bad guys, of course. Or a game with demon PCs - although it's only recently that I came up with ideas for a demon-game structure that didn't disgust me and that my players would find acceptable. Might run that one some day... > Angels seems to get portrayed as endlessly bloodthirsty (Malakim), clueless > ( Novalis often seems to be portrayed in this light) or simply no "better" > than Demons just with diffrent powers and bosses. Oh, my angel PCs are certainly clueless... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia When you're no longer searching for beauty or love Just some kind of life with the edges taken off When you can't even define what it is that you're frightened of PULP, "The Fear" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:23:13 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Re: Willy Wonka, what is he? >I think willy wonka is a servant of creation on loan to dream. > Willy Wonka is a fictional character. Roald Dahl, creator of Willy Wonka and writer of several other children's stories, was secretly Roaldiel, an Ofanite of Creation in service to Christopher, Archangel of Children. After the publication of "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory," the book which introduced Willy Wonka, a Balseraph of Gluttony talked Dahl's publisher into selling the rights to mass market candies under the Wonka brand name. At the same time, a Lilim of Dark Humor optioned the movie rights to the book and turned the magical, whimsical fairy tale into a psychedelic musical designed to scare the hell out of the little kids the book was intended for. Gene Wilder, not being under anybody's control, should not be held responsible for the subtle (and not-so-subtle) effects which turned the magical morality play into a ghastly story of intrigue, terror, and evil, in which even Charlie- the paragon of the book- was found to be 'naughty' before the end of the movie. Older kids loved it; younger kids had nightmares, some for years afterward. Heaven, doing damage control, only managed one accomplishment, and that a minor one; they at least made sure that the Wonka company made -very good- mass marketed candies. Redneck, from the front lines of the War Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:40:26 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia >>>We don't all live in the US. (That was a /clue/). Some of us have different experience from you of public health care and public education. Some of us also live in places which have (or have had) nominally socialist governments. It isn't evil. It's just 'not what you are used to'. There is a difference.<<< Proclaiming that any political or economic principle, from communism to fascism, is inherently evil, is foolish and ignorant. Nearly every system can be good or bad depending on how it's implemented. As someone else pointed out, communism would be wonderful if you could just do something about the natural (survival-enhancing) human tendency to be selfish. The fact that the evidence strongly suggests that communism does not work and is never likely to work on a large scale doesn't mean it's "evil". That said, I've talked to plenty of Europeans who share some of the more rabid objections to socialism and specifically the English public health care system that have been voiced here. The fact that you live in England doesn't mean you speak for all Brits, Jo. It may not be evil because die-hard capitalists don't like it, but it's also not good because you like it. - -David (who will now probably have to write up an Angel/Demon of Socialism...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:40:14 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Other Religions in In Nomine >>>Buddhists, Taoists, Confucists, Neo-Confucists, Communism based Atheists - - I was under the impression that, in the In Nomine universe, we were at some sort of angry armed truce over not touching religions outside of the Big Three. And even then, really only Christianity, and even then, only certain parts of Christianity.<<< I was under the impression that you're the only one who's angry. >>>I think in the In Nomine universe we tacitly pretend that nearly two billion people don't exist, not counting the entire Indian subcontinent, native African religions, Australian Bushmen, Voudoun, and some of the more interesting aboriginal beliefs of North American and South American Indians. At least, that's what I've gathered from the List and the source books to date.<<< I think in the In Nomine universe, we simply haven't had the opportunity to cover every possible topic that is of interest to Emily Dresner, and I, personally, would rather wait until someone who really KNOWS about Buddhism or Australian Bushmen can write about them than do something based on a few National Geographics and a little Internet research. Yes, I'd also like to see Hinduism and Buddhism and other faiths covered eventually, but the fact that they haven't been yet doesn't mean there is a conscious decision to ignore them. It would be refreshing to see people actually inquire as to what policy is, or wait and see what is produced in the future, before going off on Half-Assed Rant #37 about it. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:40:20 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Communism=Evil? >>> You can be a communist, but running for office as a a communist or socialist is still illegal. Just ask Bernie Sanders.<<< Nonsense. That's simply not true. Nowhere in the U.S. is there a law against running for office as a communist or a socialist. You can even run for office as a Nazi. You probably won't get elected, but it's not illegal. - -David ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 1998 18:44:33 -0600 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? >>>>> "JK" == John Karakash <- Lucent ASCC > writes: JK> Heaven is closer to a human commune while Hell is JK> very close to the 'real world' version of communism (with JK> a strong dose of behind-the-scenes horse trading going on). No, Hell is closer to Alpha Complex, and you know what happens to Commies in Alpha Complex, don't you Citizen? Hell probably even has Food Vats, Crunch-E-TYM Algae Flakes, Fizz-Wizz, and Teela O'Malley videos, though I'm not about to even guess in which Principality. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 20:13:23 -0400 From: David Wood Subject: IN> Just a touch-base... Just so you folks know, I updated the Blasphemy. Still got a few holes, but since my ISP did something right for a change, patching them will be comparatively easy. Currently, the team of angels I'm running are guarding cheese. This is independent of the 666 that one of the players rolled -- twice (!!) -- in a crowded bar. The results are *precious.* - --David http://home.bluecrab.org/~dwood "Hope is the thing which fetters..." --What Emily Dickinson SHOULD have said. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:14:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Kim Foster wrote: > This might seem strange, but I was wondering if anyone runs Demons as the > villians anymore? From alot of discussion about games on this list it seems > more in fashion to present them as anything ranging from tragic heroes to > just misunderstood neutrals. Lilim and Servants of Dark Humour seem to get > this "lightening up" treatment the most. Not in MY game. The Shedim of Dark Humor has ruined lives, destroyed small communities, and corrupted many people (most of them not even hosts), all with a big, evil smile. The Lilim of Lust is a cruel, heartless user, who works with the Shedim a lot - she likes to seduce people, get them to do disgusting thing, then make them feel like shit for doing it and making sure other people find out about it...promoting the Guilt of Lust, which makes it more evil. The Shedim helps out with the reactions of other people; the seducees' lives are generally ruined. That's just the two you mentioned...I'd be happy to go on about the Balseraph of Nergal (noncanon DP of Sickness) or the ex-Habbalite of Malphas (now redeemed - y'all read the story I posted, right?). EVIL, evil demons. I have very good players...they do evil well. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! | "Fuck 'Em If They Can't Take A Joke is more than just a meaningless | | slogan; it's actually a pretty serious statement, and one that I hold | | true to, with a cream pie in one hand and a chainsaw in the other..." | | -- Me | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:24:03 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia At 09:53 AM 10/06/98 -0400, you wrote: > >> BTW, has anyone done anything with China? I mean, >> it has over a billion people... surely both sides of the War >> have interests over there. > >Buddhists, Taoists, Confucists, Neo-Confucists, Communism based Atheists - >I was under the impression that, in the In Nomine universe, we were at >some sort of angry armed truce over not touching religions outside of the >Big Three. And even then, really only Christianity, and even then, only >certain parts of Christianity. > >I mean hell, if we don't know about it, it doesn't exist, right? RIGHT? > >I think in the In Nomine universe we tacitly pretend that nearly two >billion people don't exist, not counting the entire Indian >subcontinent, native African religions, Australian Bushmen, Voudoun, and >some of the more interesting aboriginal beliefs of North American and >South American Indians. At least, that's what I've gathered from the >List and the source books to date. > >- Em. >Firstly, Ethereal deities cover a number of these people, secondly remember that just about anyone who achieves their destiny can get in to heaven, even Native American shamans, in fact I believe Native American vissinary, Black Elk, was noted as being in Heaven. And the souls of soldiers working in Heaven are named after a Buddhist concept!, and you forgot the original before the Three, Zoroastrianism, which was the first religion that Yves developed. Simon, Demon Prince of Pearls > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:28:48 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia > >> I grant you certainly don't get fat or bearded heroes. >Pheobus from Hunchback had a goatee, thats a type of beard. He was also the >first Disney hero to have facial hair What about the Beast? Every last inch was covered in hair, but in the end, he was blond haired and blue-eyed. No facial hair either. However, when they do remakes, they don't use the defurred Beast. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:59:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Kim Foster wrote: > This might seem strange, but I was wondering if anyone runs Demons as the > villians anymore? Ayup. I have flatly stated that I will never, ever run a Demon game, and if any player wanted a demonic PC, then it had better be a Renegade in search of Redemption. Demons are evil incarnate. They do nasty horrible things for kicks. I have a very hard time envisioning them in any sort of sympathetic light. Why yes, I am a devout Christian. How did you guess? ;) > From alot of discussion about games on this list it seems > more in fashion to present them as anything ranging from tragic heroes to > just misunderstood neutrals. Lilim and Servants of Dark Humour seem to get > this "lightening up" treatment the most. Lemme illustrate how -I- see Kobal. We're all gamers, so I can reasonably assume that at some point, we hve been referred to as freaks, geeks, or nerds. While we are now at the point where these labels no longer hurt us, when we were in high school it was a different story. There was always -someone- who seemed to take evil joy in making fun of us, ridiculing in front of the popular crowd, making us the butt of cruel jokes. And this person was usually on the football team or the cheerleading squad, depending on gender, and was immensely attractive and popular. Remember that person? - -That's- Kobal. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:04:29 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Animals? Can animals become soldiers of God? jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:27:49 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: Re: IN> Animals? >Can animals become soldiers of God? Yep. Don't have the page number, but in the "Soldiers of God" section of _Night Music_, one of the Soldiers is "Rusty," a Golden Retriever. Apparently he likes Angels because they smell interesting. AB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:29:10 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? >Demons are evil incarnate. They do nasty horrible things for kicks. I >have a very hard time envisioning them in any sort of sympathetic light. > >Why yes, I am a devout Christian. How did you guess? ;) Heh. I'm a devout atheist and I feel pretty much the same way. "Evil" is unappealing to me. Respectfully, AB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:45:22 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> Animals? Joanna Hart wrote: > Can animals become soldiers of God? Yes; there's an example in Night Music ISTR. I have a cat Soldier of God in my campaign as an NPC; it's great fun ;-). Sam - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:51:07 -0700 From: "Gerry Mckelvey" Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia - ---------- > From: David Edelstein , > > Proclaiming that any political or economic principle, from communism to > fascism, is inherently evil, is foolish and ignorant. that's just what dictators and self-serving politico's count on...by that reasoning, hitler was just misguided...a point of view I think that 6 million jews would disagree with..if they could. An idea can kill just as easily as a gun..depends on how it's used and when... Nearly every system > can be good or bad depending on how it's implemented. naive and dangerous to make that assumption. Some things should never be attempted or implemented. As someone else > pointed out, communism would be wonderful if you could just do something > about the natural (survival-enhancing) human tendency to be selfish. The > fact that the evidence strongly suggests that communism does not work and > is never likely to work on a large scale doesn't mean it's "evil". Uh...if it dosen't work, and harms people and isn't ever going to work, save as an instrument of oppression, than the idea is therefor 'evil' by definition...or so it would seem to me.. > > That said, I've talked to plenty of Europeans who share some of the more > rabid objections to socialism and specifically the English public health > care system that have been voiced here. The fact that you live in England > doesn't mean you speak for all Brits, Jo. It may not be evil because > die-hard capitalists don't like it, but it's also not good because you like > it. > > -David (who will now probably have to write up an Angel/Demon of > Socialism...) just my 2 cents worth...didn't think it belonged on the mailer... Jerry McKelvey Exitus Acta Probat. Jus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:21:17 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? Just an aside on Kobal and Dark Humor, I personally tend to translate "Dark Humor" as "Mockery." It sounds more vicious. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:28:25 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? On 10 Jun 1998, Jason F. McBrayer wrote: > >>>>> "JK" == John Karakash <- Lucent ASCC > writes: > > JK> Heaven is closer to a human commune while Hell is > JK> very close to the 'real world' version of communism (with > JK> a strong dose of behind-the-scenes horse trading going on). > > No, Hell is closer to Alpha Complex, and you know what happens to > Commies in Alpha Complex, don't you Citizen? Hell probably even has > Food Vats, Crunch-E-TYM Algae Flakes, Fizz-Wizz, and Teela O'Malley > videos, though I'm not about to even guess in which Principality. Yeah, but then Alpha Complex is more communist than any Real Life state that I've heard of... :) To get this back on track... IN/Paranoia cross-over anyone? :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:40:29 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > -David (who will now probably have to write up an Angel/Demon of > Socialism...) Wouldn't that be David? At least I think the Angel of Unions (if it exists) should be under him. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:43:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? > Yeah, but then Alpha Complex is more communist than any Real Life state > that I've heard of... :) > > To get this back on track... IN/Paranoia cross-over anyone? :) I hear that Dom-I-NIC is in charge of the Master Computer. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:45:50 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: Re: IN> Communism=Evil? >To get this back on track... IN/Paranoia cross-over anyone? :) I alluded to this in an earlier message. Seems to me that an all-Demon campaing is rife for this sort of thing. Picture the scene: Your players are all at the table. One by one you take them into a separate room and give them their secret instructions on how they're supposed to kill the other Demons/thwart their plans/help a certain Demon without him knowing it/etc. And remember: The perfect debriefing always starts off with the phrase "I can speak without fear of contradiction..." Afterburner Balseraph of Infernal R&D ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 1998 08:25:51 -0600 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: IN> Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia >>>>> "SH" == Simon Hailes writes: SH> and you forgot the original before the Three, Zoroastrianism, SH> which was the first religion that Yves developed. Where is this mentioned? I'm working on a Gnostic IN setting, and it would be nice to have it intersect with canon at this point. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:57:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Are Demons still bad? > > This might seem strange, but I was wondering if anyone runs Demons as the > > villians anymore? From alot of discussion about games on this list it seems > > more in fashion to present them as anything ranging from tragic heroes to > > just misunderstood neutrals. Lilim and Servants of Dark Humour seem to get > > this "lightening up" treatment the most. > > Once again the Fiat Justitia page comes up - > http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~maya/nomine/fiat.html - as if everyone hasn't > seen it enough bloody times already. :) I recommend scrolling down to Day > Six, and reading the "Descent" and "All Judgement Lost" logs. One > Balseraph of the Game - and not one in a particular hurry, at that. That > should settle the 'villain' question Real Fast. :) This is true - in Fiat, the demons (except me, but see below in previous mail, eh) are _BAD_. Even the nice ones are Bad. Even the ones we like are Bad. They are all just Bad. And it feels good to do obnoxious things to them, and it really makes those Honorbound Malakim seem really heroic, if not a little, well, overeager. In Holy War, I've had demons mess with human populations, kill each other, kill angels, suck forces out of people, and leave heads on altars in churches. Demons are evil. Sometimes in a particularly nasty session, I can give people - even myself - a nice dose of Not Wanting to Sleep. And now I'm preparing to unleash it on humans pro bono, because well, hell, it's fun. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:44:32 -0800 From: Armand Subject: IN> Thoughts on Immortality - plot seed Apologies if I'm just reiterating something that has been stated previously. I also apologise for anything that may seem a little far fetched or cliche. With all this talk of I got to thinking of the Genesis stuff about how God sent Adama and Eve out of Eden lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever. Of course, the following plot seed is severely dependant on whether or not you feel that Eden is a geographical location in the Corporeal. Story: A group of research scientists in Antartica, testing the various Antartican resources. Mostly geologists looking for fuel and other resources. One day, an intern discovers a series of caverns that lead below the surface. He gets down there and finds a garden. He stops of at a tree and sees lovely orange colored fruit. He peels one and takes a bite. he feels a warmth radiating from within. The fatigue of climbing through the caverns washes away from his limbs. Just in time, he ducks as a tongue of flame waves past his head. He takes a quick look, and sees a man wielding what appears to be a flaming sword. He runs. However, not fast enough. He looks down, and sees a lick of flame appear through his chest. He blacks out. His colleagues find his body at the base of a sheer cliff. His clothes are singed as though he were standing too near a fire. As they move to lift him, he stands on his own.... That was 45 years ago. The intern has not aged a year in all that time. Finally, however, research has given him the tools that he needs to find the hidden garden once again. He has garnered aid from the military to dig down into the Antartic continent. The Tree of Life will be his... Plot ideas: 1) I don't think that someone like Saminga is going to sit on his heels and allow this to happen. Odds are, he's going to pull in every favor to make sure that it doesn't happen. However, will the Angels continue God's will and not allow the humans get to the tree. However, wouldn't this put them working with the demons? 2) The military comes down on Antartica and starts pushing away all researchers. Many of these researchers may be from non aligned nations. Could this be the confrontation that makes Gabriel call on the Trumpet? 3) A cherub's attuned is dying of a non curable disease. The Tree of Life could be the only cure. To what lengths will he go? 4) It's all a hoax. There is no Eden and this history is all a construct. This is actually a ploy to lead a bunch of Celestials to a fall. Just my thoughts on Immortality. An interesting cross, though, would be the idea that in this case, immortality could be a blessing. Then you take the Wandering Jew, in which immortality is a curse. Hmm... Armand ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:13:43 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:24:27AM -0700, Bartholomew Hammerly wrote: > >I think that's been exaggerated somewhat. At least, it didn't stop the > >Templars charging interest. Of course it also surprises me somewhat > that > >no one seems to have taken account of the fact that Trade (or at least > >wealth) is necessary for War. You'd think Marc would be Michael's best > >friend. > > You could argue with that notion, yes, but remember that Michael is > primarily concerned with the war between Heaven & Hell, and cares > nothing for the materialistic gains that can be had from Earthly wars. I didn't say he was concerned with materialistic gain from Earthly wars, but I would be very surprised to find that he wasn't interested in Earthly wars. And for any war bigger than a barroom brawl, Trade is necessary to some degree. Because wars can't be fought without wealth, and wealth can't be generated without some kind of trade, be it by barter or otherwise. > Also, there is the important factor that the losing side can be > economically crushed (not very good for trade), and the war torn > countries of Africa's nations do not seem very prosoperous, except for > their bloodsucking rulers. > Whether War is good for Trade or not is an unsettled question. Some countries became far richer because of war, whether they were involved in those wars or not. The Swedes made a fortune out of the naval wars in the Atlantic and Caribbean, because they had a vast surplus of wood. > Pakistan and India, two of the poorest industrialized countries, > certainly have gained the power to wage destructive war (this probably > makes the Demon of Nuclear Destruction happy, at least). > (I pity the Demon of Nuclear Destruction. I really do.) Pakistan and India may be poor relative to other countries, and I expect that if they make war with those countries they'll be defeated, but I doubt they managed to build those weapons without an arms budget, and the taxes needed to raise that budget weren't levied on nothing. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Yet it cannot be called talent to slay fellow-citizens, to deceive friends, to be without faith, without mercy, without religion; such methods may gain empire, but not glory." Machiavelli, the Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:25:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: IN> New Discord for Lilim: Prepayment Clause New Discord for Lilim -- Prepayment Clause: All of the Lilim's geasa up to the level of this discord have a 'prepayment clause' appropriate to the size of the geas and sometimes the action which incurred the geas through which the geased can discharge his obligation *against the wishes of the Lilim*. This discord can be taken so that the prepayment must be paid before the Lilim calls in her geas, or such that when the Lilim calls in her geas her victim can fork over the prepayment on the spot instead of accepting or resisting the geas. (Note: her victim may *not* try to resist the geas and then hand over payment if that fails. Resisting the geas is denying that you owe the Lilim; 'prepaying' it acknowledges the debt and simply insists on paying it this way instead of that.) If the Lilim receives payment, the geas-hook (or incipient geas) vanishes; she does not take dissonance if this happens when she tries to call it in. She got paid, even if not _exactly_ what she wanted. The payment clause is known to the Lilim and is obvious to anyone to whom the geas or geas-hook is visible, and any Celestial will be aware of it if the geas bites (humans will be subconsiously aware, consciously if they understand what a Lilim is and that they've been hooked by one.) The Lilim may or may not have control over what the prepayment is (GM's option) but it would ordinarily be something tangible given to the Lilim (Essence, money, a Vessel, and artifact, etc.) If the Lilim tries to call in stacked geasa with prepayment clauses, paying off enough geasa that the stack isn't enough to call in the favor she's asking will make her geas-attempt automatically fail. She will not incur dissonance, however; she'll have the payment for part of it and a geas-hook for the rest. (This obviously makes it impractical to accumulate a geas/5 by doing 1 geas/2 and 3 geas/1s.) (Yes, this makes it difficult to keep geas-hooks on angels and servitors of enemy Superiors. Tough.) Value: - -3/level if: the prepayment clause is something that can be fulfilled without having to find the Lilim, or the prepayment clause helps the indebted track down the Lilim or a place to pay her back when making a sincere attempt to repay the geas -- part of the prepayment can be assumed to be leaving that place in peace; nevertheless, this place might be the Lilim herself.... or the Lilim's identity is easily discernable and where to make payments is well-known (e.g. if you could march into any Freedom Tether and hand over the payment plus two Essence for the Seneshal's time.) - -2/level if: the indebted must have the payment on hand whenever the Lilim finds the indebted and tries to call it in and cannot pay back at any other time the indebted can prepay at any time _before_ the Lilim tries to call in the geas but has to somehow find her to do it. (This may mean that whether the prepayment is made or the Lilim calls in her debt is resolved by initiative, or who sees who first!) Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:50:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> Animals? At 09:04 AM 6/11/98 +0100, you wrote: >Can animals become soldiers of God? Well,there is an example Soilder of God in Night Music thats a dog. Rusty. > > >jo > > I know violence doesn't solve all problems... But it sure feels good! Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:04:07 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Disney's Infernal Communists - Anastasia > I didn't say he was concerned with materialistic gain from Earthly wars, > but I would be very surprised to find that he wasn't interested in Earthly > wars. And for any war bigger than a barroom brawl, Trade is necessary to > some degree. Because wars can't be fought without wealth, and wealth can't > be generated without some kind of trade, be it by barter or otherwise. Wealth is hard to generate without trade, but it's possible. Wealth can be _procured_ without trade, though. It's called stealing. Most governments will call it liberating, confiscating, or 'spoils of war'. For example, your average mongol horde. They rush in, kill everything, take what they want and skedaddle. Minimal trade involved! A more modern example would be to rush in, 'liberate the masses', kill the evil oppressors, confiscate everything for the state, settle in for a long stay... I think I like the mongol version better! ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:03:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jesse L. Rooney" Subject: IN> Buddhist In Nomine Revised Buddhist In Nomine Revised I figured, now that I have the time, I would do this over into a playable and understandable form. In general we can see the archangels as Tibetan Buddhist deities (which I know little about) or bodhisattvas, which I know a bit more about. Tibetan Buddhists pray and worship to lots of deities and bodhisattvas for intervention in their lives. These bodhisattvas all have names, but I do not have the references right now to look these up so I leave them listed by their purpose, i.e. "bodhisattvas of compassion." If you need a name for one of them, make it up, or, better yet, look it up. "Bodhisattva" in this document reefers to the Buddhist being, not the In Nomine soul. Note:I am a Theravada Buddhist so I do not pray to these beings, but I do know a little about them. Archangels: In general the angels support Buddhism and help it along. Blandine: Buddhists are supposed to train themselves to see the proper perceptions of the cosmos. As such Blandine, an archangel of illusion, may seem to be little involved with Buddhists. This is not the case. Blandine works not just to create peaceful illusions for those who need them; she also works to eliminate misplaced and harmful illusions. Often, a mortal will be come wrapped in one of Beleth dreamscapes and be unable to distinguish real life from , and helps people see the true world and distinguish it from their dreams. David: David, although not often involved in Buddhism, generally serves to remind Buddhist of the first of the Four Noble Truths, that all life is suffering. This reminds Buddhists of their goal to end suffering and keeps them focused. David's word, along with Laurence's and Michael's, is also invoked when violence is nesasary as a teaching tool. David could very well be the bodhisattva of violence. Dominic: No special policy. Eli: Eli often serves as the inspiration for new teachings and new teachers. He also serves to grant hope and faith to the struggling masses on Earth, something the Buddhists of Tibet are in dire need off. The bodhisattva of inspiration may be an aspect of Eli. Some Buddhist-minded angels believe that Eli's current separation from Heaven may have been caused by his preoccupation with Earth, it is a basic Buddhist tenant that one should not become to attached to anything. They fear that this will only damage Eli more, the more time he spends on Earth. Gabriel: Along with Eli, Gabriel serves to inspire teachers and teachings, although this has certainly changed since her mission to Mohammed. Gabriel's word also serves as a popular means if protest by Buddhists through self-immolation. Janus: Janus often serves to help Buddhists change their minds and their lives, so that they do not become to attached to anyone thing. Note: Why would anyone willingly play a Malak of Janus? Just about any use of their attunement cause disturbance on a large scale, probably bringing every celestial in the area running. Jean: No special policy. Jordi: The archangel of Animals respects Buddhists more than most humans. Buddhists are often vegetarians and have a healthy respect for all life. There are many stories of wise Buddhists being protected by the animals of the forest, this could be Jordi's doing. Laurence: The Sword does not usually go well with the pacifist Buddhist. Laurence played a major role in the creation of the bushido code of Japan, which was derived from Zen Buddhism. This ultimately backfired on Heaven as Saminga and Baal stuck their talons into the militaristic bushido Japan and transformed the warrior code from an art form to an indoctrination of non-thinking soldiers leading ultimately to the second world war. Marc: Marc generally leaves Buddhism to those more associated with it. He does try and guard against Nybbas's schemes to make Buddhism a "flavor of the month" item, though. (Anyone else notice that the Dali Lama is in vogue these days?) Michael: Like Laurence, Michael is not overly concerned with the peaceful Buddhism. He does, however, promote conflict as a means to enlightenment through debate and conversation. Novalis: Generally the most peaceful archangel, Novalis gets along well with Buddhists. She is, however, very emotional and tends to let her emotions rule her, something very non-Buddhist. She tries very hard to prevent her natural emotional exuberance from pouring over too much, but she does not always succeed. Novalis may be the bodhisattav of compassion, a being said to be reincarnated in the Dali Lama. Yves: Yves works to guide man to its destiny. If this includes Buddhism, so be it. If Yves sees a human whose destiny is linked to Buddhism, he will guide the man towards the religion. Demon Princes: The demons tend to play upon Buddhism's denial of excessive emotion and violence as a means to destroying them. Andre: Andre really gets a kick out of torturing Buddhists. Sex is a natural human drive but many Buddhists attempt to drive it away. This often causes against and pain and more unfulfilled lust. Asmodeus: The Prince of the Game tends to manipulate Buddhists on a whole-scale level rather than working with one at a time, pushing Buddhists against Muslims etc. If Asmodeus can keep the pieces of major religions in check, Hell may win the war. Baal: Typically Baal has little interest in pacifists but he can still get them to work for him, as demonstrated by the bushido affair. Beleth: Beleth plays upon the emotional detachment of Buddhists and crafts nasty illusions to lure them away from the proper perception of reality and dreams. Belial: Man, he loves to see those monks throw themselves into the fire! Haagenti: Buddhists really get to this guy. The try and live without acting on impulse, emotion or appetite, Haagenti's bread and butter. They taste good, though. Kobal: Kobal doesn't have any stereotypes about Buddhists or anyone else. He treats every victim as an individual, more fun. Kronos: While Buddhism and religions in general usually lead to destiny, rather than fate, some people have their fates intimately tied to Buddhism. Kronos usually leads these people to Buddhism, they often become heartless, unfeeling and impassionate beings, just right for the Demon of Fate. Malphas: Like the Demon of the Game, Malphas pits religions against religions as well as person against person. Malphas will happily dupe any Buddhist into antagonism against anyone else. Nybbas: Nybbas is trying to stop the spiritual message by making Buddhism a fad. The Dali Lama is in vogue and his popularity is increasing, but his message is often lost in the Apple computer advertisements and other such things. Using a Buddhist to promote commercialism is a great laugh for Nybbas. Saminga: Sam doesn't like Buddhists, they don't fear him as much as other mortals. They are no funny living, so Sam figures he might as well kill them. Valefor: The Prince of theft is in no way a Buddhist. He is deeply attached to material objects and might as well focus on those mortals who are as well. Vapula: No special policy. Choirs: Seraphim: These highest are extremely concerned with exposing illusion and this makes them somewhat Buddhist in outlook. Seraphim can appreciate the withdrawn and truth-seeking qualities of the wisest of Buddhists. Cherubim: The cabbages are generally to attached to the mortal world to understand the Buddhist outlook on life. Elohim: These angels connect really well with the emotional control of Buddhists. They often work to instruct Buddhists in there emotional control. Other Choirs: No special policy. Bands: Djinn: These guys represent what demons wish Buddhists were, heartless and cold-blooded. A djinn or other demon will often try to push the Buddhist into becoming like the djinn as the logical conclusion of emotional control. What do you think? - -Jesse Suggested Reading: Tricycle, the Buddhist Quarterly; The Dhammapada, esp. Thomas Clearly's translation; Thich Nhat Hanh; just about anything from Wisdom Publications ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #819 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.