From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Jun 14 00:16:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA16884 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:16:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA07000 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:08:27 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:08:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199806140508.AAA07000@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #823 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, June 14 1998 Volume 01 : Number 823 In this digest: Re: IN> Native Americans and others Re: IN> Yet Another Try Re: IN> Native Americans and others IN> Zoroaster, YHWH and Native Americans ... Oh my! IN> Pagan Gods Re: IN> Jack Chick, Balseraph of Factions? RE: IN> Pagan Gods Re: IN> Native Americans and others RE: IN> Zoroastrian In Nomine IN> Native Americans and others ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:17:35 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others > Well this fits in nicely with canon as the Marches book only refers to a > small number of the numerous pantheons of gods that exist in our mythology. Not > to mention that the Aztec gods were wiped out and only a very few (like three) > exist for certain, and Beleth loves them. The question stands: How did the gods of Central America get destroyed in the Purity Crusade, if that ended in 735 (?) AD and the Olmecs didn't establish their civilization until around 1000 AD? And the Gods of the region were doing just fine until the Conquistadors came and wiped out the civilizations? And actually, the Mayans of the Yucatan _still_ honor some of the ancient Gods? I think Mankind wiped out those gods, not any celestials. In specific, mankind carrying influenza and small pox. Mankind does have some power over it's own destiny sometimes. Research, man. Gotta love it. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:21:41 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Yet Another Try Twila Oxley Price wrote: > > ========================================================================== > Caidel > Malakite of Creation, in service to Laurence > > Corporeal Forces - 4 (Strength 9, Agility 7) > Ethereal Forces - 4 (Intelligence 8, Precision 8) > Celestial Forces - 5 (Will 10, Perception 10) > > Vessel: Human/2 (male) (cost: 6) > Role: Martial arts teacher (Kai Sakura)/3; Status/3 (cost: 5) > > Skills: Fighting/5 (martial arts); Driving/1; Large Weapon/5 (sword); > Tracking/4; Knowledge (blade-smith/5, Oriental philosophy/3, > teaching/1) (cost: 24) > > Songs: Motion (Corporeal/3, Ethereal/3, Celestial/3); Thunder/5; > Tongues (Ethereal/3) (cost: 17) > > Attunements: Malakite of Creation; Abracadabra; Blade Blessing of > Laurence. > > Special Rite: Create a worthy blade (+2 essence). > > Malakite Oaths: Never suffer an evil to live if it's his choice; Never > surrender; Foster skills in honorable students; Engage in one creative > endeavor every week; Protect Jereth. > > Point total: 52 (spent: 6 + 5 = 11 + 24 = 34 + 17 = 52) Don't forget to add in the costs of the purchased Attunements (if you're keeping track of points that way). Servitor attunements are 10 points a pop. The choir attunement is free, of course. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:37:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others Emily K. Dresner wrote: > How did the gods of Central America get destroyed in the Purity > Crusade, if that ended in 735 (?) AD and the Olmecs didn't establish > their civilization until around 1000 AD? And the Gods of the > region were doing just fine until the Conquistadors came and wiped > out the civilizations? It is possible that some deities were regenerated by their believers after the Crusade. It is also possible that the deities were not there and the worshippers were unaware of the fact. Erl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:15:16 -0400 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: IN> Zoroaster, YHWH and Native Americans ... Oh my! With all this talk about Native American and other pagan deities twinking about in the Ethereal plane -and- the current discussion over the origins of Judaism, I've begun to speculate about a YHWH loitering in the Marches as well. Possibly even a Christian God with a severe case of Multiple Personality Disorder. Human belief, in whichever form, doesn't line up with the way celestials actually exist. I'd say that many of the world religions "have it right" to some extent: there are compassionate beings who return from paradise to continue helping mankind (Buddhism's bohdisattvas), there are angels and demons actively working to win a war (various), etc. etc. Old Testament theology, however, isn't any more in line with The Truth (canon presentation of history and celestials) than the others. And Christianity doesn't have it near right, either. Given that and all the human effort that's gone into Judaism (the old world sacrifices, for one) and Christianity, one could posit that rather divergent versions of YHWH and the Christian God might have appeared in the Marches as well as the other so-called "pagan" deities. Ramblings at work, so I apologize that this hasn't been presented beautifully. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:30:56 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Pagan Gods See Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality for a treatment of Gods gone by the wayside. Esp. book six, For Love of Evil (my favorite for some reason, must be for the in depth look at the soul of Satan). Many ideas to be had. >To: "Listserv In Nomine" > With all this talk about Native American and other pagan deities twinking >about in the Ethereal plane -and- the current discussion over the origins of >Judaism, I've begun to speculate about a YHWH loitering in the Marches as >well. Possibly even a Christian God with a severe case of Multiple >Personality Disorder. > Human belief, in whichever form, doesn't line up with the way celestials >actually exist. I'd say that many of the world religions "have it right" to >some extent: there are compassionate beings who return from paradise to >continue helping mankind (Buddhism's bohdisattvas), there are angels and >demons actively working to win a war (various), etc. etc. Old Testament >theology, however, isn't any more in line with The Truth (canon presentation >of history and celestials) than the others. And Christianity doesn't have it >near right, either. > Given that and all the human effort that's gone into Judaism (the old world >sacrifices, for one) and Christianity, one could posit that rather divergent >versions of YHWH and the Christian God might have appeared in the Marches as >well as the other so-called "pagan" deities. Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:38:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Jack Chick, Balseraph of Factions? - ---Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Mr. Chick has also come out against role-playing games as > thinly disguised Satanism. > > Earl > I bet Mr. Chick would have a field day with In Nomine, eh? Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:44:46 -0400 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: RE: IN> Pagan Gods Bartholomew Hammerly did verily write: > See Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality for a treatment of Gods > gone by the wayside. Esp. book six, For Love of Evil (my favorite for > some reason, must be for the in depth look at the soul of Satan). Many > ideas to be had. Yea. I loved Anthony's YHWH. _And Eternity..._ bit rocks, though. I was interested in the list's reaction to YHWH and Gods running about in the Marches, though. More deities scampering about telling their followers they're the Real Thing(r) only now they can point to the robes and sandals. "See? I'm the LORD! I've got the beard!" Were -I- the Angel of Purity, that could certainly put enough torque in my toga to start a Crusade. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:16:04 -0400 From: Ron Carnegie Subject: Re: IN> Native Americans and others At 07:25 AM 6/12/98 -0400, you wrote: > I feel pretty much the same way with regard to Chaosium products >(which is not to say that I *don't* feel the same way about Steve Jackson >products -- however, In Nomine is the only SJ product I've purchased, and >so the sample size is small). I'm one of the few folks I know who actually >has a copy of Chaosium's Ringworld RPG, as well as the sole supplement that >was ever put out for the game. I've never played the game, alas, and will >probably never get the chance. But it's still a *great* source of >background info for Larry Niven's "Known Space" universe. Same with the >Call of Cthulhu game (although I understand that it's grown far beyond >Lovecraft's original vision, and many "serious" Lovecraft aficianados look >down upon those whose sole experience with Cthulhu/Lovecraft is via the RPG). > > At some point in the very near future, I plan on buying the entireI also am very fond of Chaosium, and in fact have played Ringworld. Their old magazine "Different Worlds" was one of the best gaming magazines of all time...I miss it. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:50:19 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: RE: IN> Zoroastrian In Nomine At 10:41 AM 12/06/98 -0400, you wrote: >> It's in the Yves description of Heaven and Hell, and IRL there is a lot >> of proof that Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism, and subsequently >> Christianity, and is still practiced today by a number. Therefore if you >> want a place for Judaism in In Nomine then you can claim it ws a tribal >> religion [...] > > Er. Judaism -was- a tribal religion at its roots. 12 tribes who called >themselves Israelites all twinking about the desert with a patron desert >storm deity keen on smiting enemies. Quite tribal. > >Quite true I realize this, but after being enslaved by the Perisans they were introduced to Zoroastrainism with its good vs evil dogman and a whole host of celstail angelic beings, subsequently a group of Jewish Mystics called the Essenes was formed who believed that good and bad angels were fighting over humanity, and used the Book of Enoch as a sacred test, this is where the Grigori come from. anyway I would have to go in to this in many pages to give it full credit, just read From the Ashes of Angels and you'll see what I mean. Simon, Demon Prince of Pearls > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:46:40 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Native Americans and others >>>I feel pretty much the same way with regard to Chaosium products<<< Agree, Chaosium is definitely high on my list of quality RPG publishers. >>>I'm one of the few folks I know who actually has a copy of Chaosium's Ringworld RPG, as well as the sole supplement that was ever put out for the game.<<< Ditto! Welcome to the small, lonely club of Ringworld RPG fans! - -David (ok, this is off-topic too, but at least it's about _gaming_! ;)) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #823 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.