From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jun 17 13:17:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15589 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:17:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA23091 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:16:02 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:16:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199806171816.NAA23091@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #829 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, June 17 1998 Volume 01 : Number 829 In this digest: Re: IN> Servitors of Eli Re: IN> Lower Hells IN> Re: IN- Servitors of Eli IN> Judaism and Afterlife IN> "Pagan" Christianity? IN> Jews and others Re: IN> Servitors of Eli Re: IN> Jews and others Re: IN> Judaism and Afterlife Re: IN> Jews and others Re: IN> Servitors of Eli IN> Voyages (pt II) Re: IN> Jews and others Re: IN> Lower Hells Re: IN> Re: IN- Servitors of Eli Re: IN> Servitors of Eli Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> Tethers Re: IN> Jews and others ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:22:34 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Eli At 4:15 PM -0700 6/16/98, Jarrod D. Stanek wrote: >If your Superior makes you a new Corporeal Vessel when you get killed and >appear in Heaven, how do angels of Eli, not serving anyone else, get new >vessels since Eli no longer goes to Heaven? #1: Bargain with other Archangels. #2: Hope that Eli actually *does* show up occasionally, on the sly, to stuff Something Else under his bed and dig through his comics collection. #3: Wait a Long Time. #4: Have Extra Vessels. Ummmmm... I can't think of any others. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:33:42 +0900 From: Simon Hailes Subject: Re: IN> Lower Hells Some talk a while back about Celestial beasts brought to mind a long standing question of mine. What besides Lucifer and a company of unfortunate demons and damned, resides in the Lower Hells? You can't tell me that Lucifer is alone down there, the whole Lower Hells concept is just crying out for a whole host of discordant nasties that are too powerful or evil to be let out just yet. Someone, I believe it was Beth, said there was no Hell before the Fall, but I would disagree, I'm sure the Lower Hells have always existed, and that the Upper Hell also existed, but was in a base form at the time. If we look at the layout of Heaven and Hell closely we can see that Hell acts like a shadow to Heaven, a dark reflection where everything fine up above is everything wrong down below. You've got Sheol versus the Caldera, Gehenna versus the Groves, Hades versus the Eternal City, Tarterus versus Jean's labs and so on and so on. And just as the Upper Heavens are described as a progression towards Utter Perfection, of Perfection as far as God is concerned, the Lower Hells must lead down to Utter Imperfection, indeed, though I am borrowing from Wraith here, it may lead down to complete and Utter oblivion, the Void. And maybe, just maybe, Anti-God Itself, that most abhorent of suppositions which Yves cannot admit is real, and whom is Kronos's real master. Simon, Demon Prince of Pearls ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:30:07 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Servitors of Eli >>If your Superior makes you a new Corporeal Vessel when you get killed and >>appear in Heaven, how do angels of Eli, not serving anyone else, get new >>vessels since Eli no longer goes to Heaven? > >#1: Bargain with other Archangels. > >#2: Hope that Eli actually *does* show up occasionally, on the sly, > to stuff Something Else under his bed and dig through his comics > collection. > >#3: Wait a Long Time. > >#4: Have Extra Vessels. > >Ummmmm... I can't think of any others. Waaaait a minute, arriving in the Cathedral of Creation? Nothing to do? MAKE A NEW VESSEL FOR YOURSELF! Whee-hee!! There's stuff there to do it with. :) - -Perry, Kyriotate of Novalis serving Eli and sometimes that furry guy named Fred. "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:48:26 -0400 From: John Dye Subject: IN> Judaism and Afterlife From what I understand (having spoken to a rabbi, a rather limited test group to be sure) there is some contention about Jews and exactly what they believe in the afterlife. From what I understand, it exists in tales, but is NOT part of scripture. Mind you Lilith is also part of tales, and at least in IN, she sure exists. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:12:46 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? >>>I'd have thought a major one is that there is no notion of original sin or people needing to be redeemed through Christ before being allowed into heaven?<<< Well, contrary to what many fundamentalists would have you believe, that is neither an original tenet of Christianity nor one that all Christians (or even the majority of Christians) believe today. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:17:19 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Jews and others >>>You missed out Mammon and Marc ;)<<< Marc possibly -- Israel is important to trade in the Middle East, having the most open markets and being the nation most likely to open the rest of the Middle East to trade *if* peace can ever be established. I don't see how Mammon is more influential in Israel than in any other country, though.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:16:57 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Eli At 04:15 PM -0700 06/16/1998, Jarrod D. Stanek wrote: >If your Superior makes you a new Corporeal Vessel when you get killed and >appear in Heaven, how do angels of Eli, not serving anyone else, get new >vessels since Eli no longer goes to Heaven? That's also a problem, perhaps slightly lesser for Servitors of Gabriel who doesn't quite hang around the place either. My best guess would be that the celestials in question would probably wind up asking for help from the respective Superiors' closest allies, Novalis for Eli, and David, Yvves, and Micheal for Gabriel. Whether Yvves would help out Eli's Servitors would depend much on the "truth" of Eli's situation in any particular GM's story, not that Heaven's Old Man would actually outright refuse, he'd just would not be there any time you go to ask him. I imagine that if Servitors of Judgement hear about an Elisians's situation, Dominic might just decide to push for an Inquiry before said Servitor is granted another vessel. Eli's Angels that are "in service" to another Superior would most likely not have any problems as that Superior would have assumed all relavant responsibilities when Eli farmed out the bulk of his Servitors. Still with all such problems, both Elisians and Gabrillites are still infinitely better off than Free Lilim who without Hearts, find themselves immediately consigned to Limbo. (unless they've worked out a substitute. "Yvves? Sure just saw him down two stacks over." Just part of the price to paid serving Archangels who make a habit of missing staff meetings. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:04:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jesse L. Rooney" Subject: Re: IN> Jews and others On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>You missed out Mammon and Marc ;)<<< > > > Marc possibly -- Israel is important to trade in the Middle East, having > the most open markets and being the nation most likely to open the rest of > the Middle East to trade *if* peace can ever be established. Wrong, Turkey and Egypt have much more open markets than Israel. > > I don't see how Mammon is more influential in Israel than in any other > country, though.... Greed for land prehaps? Valefor should have a place too, consdiering Israel stole all of its land. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:26:25 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Judaism and Afterlife At 22:48 16/06/98 -0400, you wrote: >From what I understand (having spoken to a rabbi, a rather limited test >group to be sure) there is some contention about Jews and exactly what >they believe in the afterlife. From what I understand, it exists in >tales, but is NOT part of scripture. Spot on ;) There is no dogma. There is no agreed position. It just isn't an important part of Judaism. Some of the litany makes vague comments about the 'World to Come' (ie. the hereafter). However, this also means there is no tradition of preaching the terror of fire and brimstone and no real concept of hell. Actually in scripture, it was more often a case of 'if you don't behave then God will stop the rains from coming' but I think that can often be interpreted as the rabbis / prophets of the time using stick & carrot tactics. jo "Whatever was required to be done, the Circumlocution Office was before hand with all the public departments in the art of perceiving HOW NOT TO DO IT." -- Dickens (Little Dorrit) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:50:47 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Jews and others At 01:04 17/06/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >> I don't see how Mammon is more influential in Israel than in any other >> country, though.... > >Greed for land prehaps? Valefor should have a place too, consdiering >Israel stole all of its land. That is conspicuously untrue (but not a topic for this list). Some of it was assigned by the UN (interesting definition of stealing, if that was what you meant), some of it was bought and paid for at exorbitant prices, some was annexed after wars initiated by other parties (q.v. US action in Mexico). Follow up by email, if you must. jo "Whatever was required to be done, the Circumlocution Office was before hand with all the public departments in the art of perceiving HOW NOT TO DO IT." -- Dickens (Little Dorrit) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:01:45 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Eli At 7:15 PM -0400 6/16/98, Jarrod D. Stanek wrote: >If your Superior makes you a new Corporeal Vessel when you get killed and >appear in Heaven, how do angels of Eli, not serving anyone else, get new >vessels since Eli no longer goes to Heaven? Good question. Me, I've always assumed that it isn't always the Superior who makes Vessels personally, he or she has better things to do. They can whip up Vessels instantaneously, they just usually don't. Rather, the Superior has a set of Servcitors assinged to run the machinery/artifacts/plants that create Vessels for his Earthside servitors. In Eli's case, he still has this support machinery running, though on a far lesser scale than it used to be, and he still supplies it with the Essence neccesary to make new Vessels. All a Servitor of Eli has to do is convince whoever Eli left in charge of the vessel machinery that he needs a New Vessel, and he'll get one. Celestials serving other Archangels are likely to get new Vessels quicker, or vessels built closer to their specifications. But hey, that's part of the tradeoff you get for serving a mostly absent Archangel. = http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh ============== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Monty, Lilim Captain of Media, the Demon of Game Shows ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:11:34 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Voyages (pt II) ] The wind stood fair to the East, filling the sails out like [ ] smooth-rounded bellies, and the deck creaked in a comfortable [ ] fashion as we moved onwards. I recognised the red-tinged spines [ ] of the Atlantean histories as we rounded the point of corridor [ ] Y89G, and they seemed like old friends. My second in command [ ] flew up to the top mast and serenaded them gaily, then we [ ] swooped past and onwards, into the soft violet gloom. As the [ ] light altered, I noticed again the dark shadow in the opposite [ ] aisle which seemed to be copying our every move. [ What they Found: (Some of these encounters are fairly minor, others a bit more significant. It is one of those pick-and-choose things... I'd probably start with one or two of the minor ones.) When the voyage begins, a lot of the shelves and their contents will be familiar to any library resident. If the shelves are being mapped slowly then observant cartographers may notice one or two books which have been replaced slightly out of order. They can either correct the shelving themselves or leave messages for the cataloguing team. (This is just standard library usage). It will become obvious that different sections of the library are under the jurisdiction of different angels, partly from the layout and partly from interesting little details like how many comfortable chairs are around one of the shelves, or whether another one has large notes reminding people to be quiet, or seems to be biased towards one political outlook or another. They pass several readers and/ or library angels who may hail the ship as it passes and give them books to either return to cataloguing or leave on some distant shelf when they get there. Some readers may also want to stop them and complain about something or other ;) As they travel further on, the shelves begin to look more foreign and exotic. This is when the shadowy ship first appears. It seems to be just a shadow on the floor which is trailing them, and no attempts to contact 'it' meet with any success. Only the most perceptive relievers have much chance to see it and even then it is never clear as to whether it might just be some trick of the imagination. 1. Ephemera. Ephemera is the library term for any printed matter which is archived but isn't a book (ie. newspapers, leaflets, posters, photographs, postcards et al). A scattered trail of colourful postcards has been littered on the floor. If anyone stops to pick these up, they are all unsigned and bear unhelpful messages such as 'Well, here I am!' Anyone who is able to check with a map of the corporeal world can work out that the locations of successive postcards trace out a slow round-the-world route. The trail of postcards (if anyone follows it) finally turns a sharp corner and ends at what appears to be a new set of shelves that is crammed with boxes. A balmy breeze plays around the new shelf and the smell of salt is in the air. All of the boxes appear to be full of postcards and letters and perceptive celestials who examine the ephemera will be able to tell that anyone who concentrates hard on one of the items will be able to pick up a faint sense of 'being there.' They are in fact records from any mortal who has ever circumnavigated the world and in an especially old and dusty box people might even find the crabbed handwriting of one letter which is signed 'Phileas Fogg' and a sewn-together set of rutters bearing the name 'Magellan'. 2. The child. A small girl in period costume (like the celestials are going to recognise it! ;) ) sits and plays with a porcelain doll. Her face is tear streaked as she waves a lacy handkerchief at the passing ship. If they stop to talk to her, they will find out that she is lost, but also hasn't yet realised that she has died and come to heaven. The shelf above her holds some hand-written diaries, one of which was by her beloved older brother who died in the American Civil War. It is because of her devotion to him that she hasn't been able to find her way out of the library as the book keeps drawing her back. What she really needs is for someone to open the book and read out the last letter, in which he says goodbye. Until that happens, any directions she is given will be fruitless as she will keep wandering back to the same spot. Due to the odd destiny-nature of library geography, the ship may encounter her several times. If the PCs report back to UDC about this, he may be able to offer some suggestions. (NB. It is not impossible for the ship to encounter the brother too, in a different section. He has come back to look for her...) 3. Adverts and mice. The shelves and walls begin to be adorned with gaudy adverts, banners and slogans dating back to as far as advertising really went (and some of them are adverts for products which never existed, or products which really don't need to be advertised [Choose Life!]). Catchy little jingles are emitted from nowhere in particular until they fill the air. The overall effect is quite brash and enthusiastic. The posters are rolled up neatly in shelves, with the rest of the ephemera, but it becomes slowly obvious that there are far more gaps in the shelves than can be explained by reader activity. Also, some of those adverts are looking rather .. chewed. A perceptive mapper might be able to follow the trail of chewed adverts to a point where they actually catch a glimpse of a furry grey body disappearing under one of the shelves. This area is home to a small group of very small relievers whose celestial forms resembles fluffy winged mice and they have been taking some of the adverts for their nests. If the cartographers can catch one of the mice, it will happily invite them back to their 'grand mousehall' which is an opening in the shelves, completely papered with adverts. The one which bears pride of place is an advert for Telegrams which has a man saying 'I asked for 10 kilos of white RICE!' and a picture of lots and lots of white mice on it (the selling power being that text is less likely to be garbled than speech so telegrams are obviously better than telephones ;) ). When they get there, the other mice are apologetic about the adverts if anyone points out that they have been defacing library property but also say that they had no choice, because their old decorations were stolen by the gang of rat-relievers in the next corridor along when they kidnapped the mouse-king! (They also think that since their favourite poster has a picture of some corporeal mice on it, it obviously should belong to the mouse-relievers!) If the cartographers are willing, they may be inveigled into performing diplomatic duties between the two groups of relievers -- although some of the old adverts seem to be beyond repair, it is probably nothing that a few songs of healing can't patch up. 4. Another team of cartographers. As the mappers leave regular messages in marked books, they suddenly start to notice that some of the books already have little mapping notes in them! It seems that some other landship has passed this way recently, and is mapping out exactly the same sectors. Finally the other landship comes into hailing distance. and the relievers on board seem to think that _they_ are supposed to be mapping this section of corridor. They are working for a different cataloguing angel, and one which sounds as though it has been ordering them to map as much as possible, as quickly as possible. They are quite belligerant about it and demand the PCs turn about. However, if pressed, the reliever in command will suggest a race to decide 'mapping rights.' If things can be concluded in a friendly manner, the other landship will let one of the PCs attune to its figurehead and offer to keep up communications. 5. Weather and Shadows and ... stuff.. The weather in the library seems to be getting markedly worse as they get farther out. The landship is more difficult to handle and winds whistle down the undiscovered corridors. At the same time, the shadow ship is coming more and more into focus. Closer appraisal shows shadowy figures moving on the ship. If the destiny-ship is manoevered towards the shadow, the steersman will realise that they _do_ know the way to meet up if they concentrate on it. But as the ships get closer together, the library itself seems less.. friendly somehow. (Explanation: There are parts of Yves' library which are very very close to Kronos' archive. The shadowy ship is mapping the library from the 'other side' and is able to see the relievers as a flickering pale image. They also have no idea what it is.) As they come closer and closer, it is possible to hear voices. The imps converse in hellspeech. Just before the other ship really comes into focus, both vessels feel an unexpected tug, as if caught in a tide. If they cannot find some way to anchor fast they will get pulled swiftly towards something which looks like a black whirlpool. Winds whip across the corridors, shredding the sails. The fate-ship, unless stopped, will eventually manage to sink an anchor that looks like an alarm-clock into one of the bookshelves and will then start to bombard the destiny-ship (yes, they have cannon!) They may even make an attempt to board, despite the prevailing local conditions. The 'whirlpool' is actually a wild tether (I know, it is so Bad to use things which are pre-canon :) ) which has manifested _precisely_ on the border between Fate and Destiny. Anything which anyone can do to coax it further into their own realm (if they can remember which direction that should be) will be a good thing, but getting too close might get an entire ship dragged in. Anyone who is dragged into it will drop down/up to the corporeal realm, and find it is on the football ground in Paris which is to be the site of the 1998 World Cup Final (or some local sporting venue of your choice). But is it going to end up as a tether to destiny or to fate?? Which team is destined to win the match? How can the relievers help/ hinder? In any case, the relievers/ imps will find they cannot ascend it (who knows whether the celestial end-point will have shifted a fraction in the intervening period? It wouldn't do to end up on the wrong side) but will need to venture into Paris to locate friendly celestials who they can inform ... But that is a whole other plot seed! or find another way to get back to the library/ archive and inform the appropriate superior (which isn't as easy as it sounds -- relievers don't get taught how to summon their superiors in the same way that fully-fledged angels do). 6. A singing tree and an old man. As the landship approaches the area in which UDC noted that strange disturbances had been heard, perceptive celestials will be able to pick up the traces of a hauntingly familiar, and beautiful song. It hovers on the very edge of perception. It isn't really a disturbance as such, but... there is just something about it. It seems much stronger during the dawn essence period, as if this magnified or echoed it somehow. Anyone perceptive might realise that the faint sound of dawn which they have become familiar with is actually like an echo of the same song. If they try to travel towards the sound, they can see the corridors brightening around them with a pale roseate light, and spirits tend to lift. Finally the ship enters a wide open area, totally empty of either shelves or books, with a mist covering the ground that almost makes it look like a real sea. In the distance, the light seems to be coming from some kind of hillock/ island that emerges through the mist. On the island is a single tree, and a man. They will need to actually go 'ashore' to inspect this properly. The tree is made of crystal and the song is coming from the ringing of its glass leaves as they chime together in the breeze. Inside the glass treetrunk is encased a wooden branch, of which one tendril feeds outside and provides the only fruit (which looks like a persimmon, if anyone knows what that is). The man seems to be meditating quietly, but looks up as they approach and tells them to take the fruit and return with it, as apparently this tree doesn't produce them very often. He can also be persuaded to tell them its story. (The song they heard is a fragment of one of the original songs of creation which is a song without words; this one is known as the 'song of the dawn' and is still echoed faintly in every dawn to people who know what to listen for. The branch in the crystal tree is a cutting of the original tree of good and evil (ie. the one Adam and Eve actually ate from). The old man is actually Adam who, bizarrely enough, now blames himself for Lilith's fall and has been allowed by Yves to remain in the library until she is able to join him (of course she doesn't want to.. yet)). - -- (Thanks to Beth for nudging me into doing this) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:56:27 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Jews and others On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Jesse L. Rooney wrote: > > I don't see how Mammon is more influential in Israel than in any other > > country, though.... > > Greed for land prehaps? Valefor should have a place too, consdiering > Israel stole all of its land. Actually, most of their land was stolen for them by the United Nations. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I am returned from the grave! Let this day be hereafter known as Easter, and stuff your kids with sugar and caffeine in thanks!" -Spider Jerusalem - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:57:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheep Boy Subject: Re: IN> Lower Hells On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Simon Hailes wrote: > Some talk a while back about Celestial beasts brought to mind a long > standing question of mine. What besides Lucifer and a company of > unfortunate demons and damned, resides in the Lower Hells? You can't tell > me that Lucifer is alone down there, the whole Lower Hells concept is just > crying out for a whole host of discordant nasties that are too powerful or > evil to be let out just yet. Someone, I believe it was Beth, said there > was no Hell before the Fall, but I would disagree, I'm sure the Lower Hells > have always existed, and that the Upper Hell also existed, but was in a > base form at the time. > If we look at the layout of Heaven and Hell closely we can see that Hell > acts like a shadow to Heaven, a dark reflection where everything fine up > above is everything wrong down below. I would disagree, actually, which is to say I would agree with the someone-you-think-is-Beth, about Hell not existing before the Fall. This is all IMG, incidentally, but my opinion also holds that there is a certain distinction to be made between "shadow" and "dark reflection." My impression of Hell is far more comprised of the former, Hell being nothing more than a two-dimensional projection, the dark outline of an infinitely more complex place. Rather than mirroring the entirety of Heaven, I would say Hell is exactly what it seems, a shallow mockery of the "lowest" level of Heaven, and nothing more. On a larger (and more esoteric) scale, it seems that a large portion of what's Good and Evil in IN is all about what's Selfless and Selfish, and the idea behind Lucifer is that he is THE King Daddy of Selfishness, and ruler of Hell, after his fashion. I don't really see any anti-God out there, lurking behind all the evil in the world. I see Heaven, trying to do what's Right, and Hell, trying to do what's Wrong, and out there is God, doing what He does, behind it all. My take on this particular premise is that if there _were_ levels of Hell to be found below the surface, if you dug deep enough, you'd come full circle and find what you'd find above Heaven: the ineffable God, Symphony Incarnate, sitting back on his Laz-E-Boy recliner, sipping a Mountain Dew, and digging the last bit of lo mein out of a little paper container with those cheap little throwaway chopsticks they give you at Chinese take-out places. YMMV, - Stavro stavro@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~stavro/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everybody talks about apathy, but nobody does anything about it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:01:12 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Servitors of Eli Perry Lloyd wrote: > > >If your Superior makes you a new Corporeal Vessel when you get killed > and > >appear in Heaven, how do angels of Eli, not serving anyone else, get > new > >vessels since Eli no longer goes to Heaven? > > They barter con queso y phonos!!! My spanish is rusty, but are you suggesting that they barter with cheese and records? Telefono would be telephone, so it's not that.... Is this some sort of weird variant on inedible nachos? - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:12:51 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Eli Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 4:15 PM -0700 6/16/98, Jarrod D. Stanek wrote: > >If your Superior makes you a new Corporeal Vessel when you get killed and > >appear in Heaven, how do angels of Eli, not serving anyone else, get new > >vessels since Eli no longer goes to Heaven? > > #1: Bargain with other Archangels. > > #2: Hope that Eli actually *does* show up occasionally, on the sly, > to stuff Something Else under his bed and dig through his comics > collection. > > #3: Wait a Long Time. > > #4: Have Extra Vessels. I'll add a few thoughts. As far as Gabriel is concerned, she has mechanisms in place and Soldekia (IIRC) is nearly of Superior status anyway. Perhaps he is a special case of non-Superior being able to create vessels. He might also send word to Gabriel of defeated servitors in need of a new vessel and she makes them in some spare moment of lucidity. For Eli it is likely a bit different. Most if not nearly all of his servitors are in service to another Superior so it is likely this other that makes the new vessel if the servitor has earned it. If you are not in service to another Superior and you wake up wherever you hid your heart after a bit of trauma then you just send word to Eli through your summoning ritual that you are in need of a new body and Eli, being the Archangel of Creation that he is will just pop off and make you a new one. It should take him all of a nanosecond or three. Peace, Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 07:33:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Shumaker Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, David Edelstein wrote: # # #Well, contrary to what many fundamentalists would have you believe, that is #neither an original tenet of Christianity nor one that all Christians (or #even the majority of Christians) believe today. # #-David # Ah sorry, wrong. The concept of original sin is still a driving force in Christianity. The whole concept of the Crucifixion is built around the idea that mankind suffered from the mark of original sin and could not achieve heaven. Christ supposedly died to remove that sin from man. So you might think that the idea of original sin is no longer used because of that. However many and most Protestant faith's use the concept that if you do not get baptised you can not go to Heaven (minus the little caveat that children who die get that free ticket through the pearly gates). This idea is that man is inheritly sinful and has to ask forgiveness of his sins daily. There is a verse somewhere in the New Testament that says, "If a man says that he does not sin, then he has sinned." Something like that. There are some faiths that say, "If you lead a good life, God will call you home." Most faiths say, "If you lead a good life, believe his word, confess that Jesus is the son of God, and be baptised into the church then God will call you home." - -Jim Shumaker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:05:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? David Edelstein wrote: > Well, contrary to what many fundamentalists would have you believe, > that is neither an original tenet of Christianity nor one that all > Christians (or even the majority of Christians) believe today. Jim Shumaker wrote: > Ah sorry, wrong. The concept of original sin is still a driving > force in Christianity. Yes, but confusion can arise from terminology. Not all Christian denominations CALL it "original sin," though they may have a concept that is clearly equivalent. Also, there are technical differences between denominations on exactly what original sin is and how it is transmitted. One pastor I knew circumvented all the technicalities by defining original sin as one's own share of human cussedness, which is perhaps a good common denominator for the concept. Down at that basic level, things like it appear in non-Christian religions as well. For instance, I gather there is a traditional Jewish concept that everyone has in their hearts a "will to good" and a contending "will to evil." Even as far afield as Buddhism, the concept of "attachment" is somewhat analogous to original sin -- the fundamental trouble-causing aspect of human nature. > There is a verse somewhere in the New Testament that > says, "If a man says that he does not sin, then he has sinned." > Something like that. If I recall correctly, it's a little more like, "Anyone who says he does not sin is lying." > Most faiths say, "If you lead a good life, believe his > word, confess that Jesus is the son of God, and be baptised into the > church then God will call you home." In addition to the caveat about small children getting a free pass, many faiths also give a lot of latitude about the exact nature of baptism. Some, at least, allow for "baptism of desire," meaning the intention and desire to be a member of the Church Universal even if you weren't able to go through the actual ceremony. Furthermore, the ceremony itself can be abbreviated to almost any extent, down to "get something (water for preference, but anything) poured on you by someone who intends by that action to confer Christianity (even if they aren't Christian themselves)." For a good discussion of the subject, see the fourth of the "Seven Deadly Arguments" in the "Big Dummies' Guide to Religion, Philosophy, and Ethics" at http://www.livelinks.com/sumeria/cosmo/bdall.html which was originally pointed out to this list by Emily Dresner. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:31:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Shumaker Subject: Re: IN> Tethers On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, David Edelstein wrote: #In general, though, I see San Francisco as one of the cities where the Host #is much stronger than the infernals. Heaven doesn't have as tight a grip on #the city as Hell has on L.A., but angelic Tethers definitely outnumber #diabolical Tethers (there may or may not actually be any diabolical Tethers #in the city of San Francisco itself, though there will certainly be some in #the surrounding Bay Area). # #-David I see SF in different light then. San Fransisco has many places of diabolical and I see a number of different Tethers as possibilities. - A dirty and rickity building in the Garmet District. This is a sweat shop that employs hard working immigrants that have come to SF/USA to be able to live the "good life." All day long they make shirts that have patriotic slogans on them, and for that they get four dollars a day. (Tether of Kobal, Prince of Dark Humor) - The Black and Blue Bull - A seedy bar downtown on 6th street. Men of all sorts walk into the bar. Some leave on their feet, some leave being dragged by chains about their neck, some leave on an ambulance stretcher. Almost all leave with a smile on their masocistic faces. (This place does not exist but is an embodiment of the number of S&M joints around the city) (Tether to Andrealphus Prince of Lust and Magog, Prince of Cruelty) - The San Fransisco Bridge - The site of the most jump suicides in the world. So many people jump, some Radio Disc Jockeys started to take a poll every year to see what the count would be. Still the bridge is gaurded and every attempt is made to stop the jumpers, but still the determined jump. It is their Fate. (Tether to Kronos, Prince of Fate) - A small baptist church on Army Street. To keep its doors open, the pastor has had to rent out the church to a Black Action group called the Black Legion. The Black Legion calls for action and movement against the surpressors. The Church follows a doctrine of peace. Outside the Church, drugs are sold to the children of the poorest neighborhood in city. All three doctrines (drugs, revolution, and peace and harmony) have the hope for the better future. All three doctrines strive against the other to create discension in the ranks (Tether to Malphas Prince of Factions) Then there are the tethers for drugs, like the Canapis Buyers Club. There is the back alley off of Broadway where run away girls are "screened" to see if they will work well as a striping dancer in an exclusive members only club as a Tether for Corruption. I could go on and on. This is not to say that SF is a bad place, just that its bad enough. Of course it could be percieved as a good place since we all know that the office to the Public Relations officer for San Fransisco is a tether to the Demon Prince of Media. Don't even get me started on Willy Brown's house. Jim Shumaker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:59:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Jews and others On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > > Greed for land prehaps? Valefor should have a place too, consdiering > > Israel stole all of its land. > > Actually, most of their land was stolen for them by the United Nations. Actually, the land of Israel was given to the Jews by God, the Almighty Creator. All subsequent claims of ownership are pretty much irrelevant in this light. Let's keep this IN-specific, folks. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #829 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.