From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jun 19 22:49:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07269 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:49:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA13058 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:52:53 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:52:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199806200352.WAA13058@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #831 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, June 19 1998 Volume 01 : Number 831 In this digest: IN> Re: IN> Tethers and San Francisco IN> Tethers and San Francisco IN> Jordi, most dissonent of Archangels Re: IN> Tethers and San Francisco IN> Tether destruction IN> Angels are no tougher than Demons Re: IN> Tether destruction Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> Tethers and San Francisco Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? Re: IN> Servitors of Eli ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:28:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: IN> Re: - ---Simon Killingray wrote: > > If this goes to the list someone write back and tell me about it > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Simon Killingray It went on the list :) Graveyard Greg, Malakite of Creation _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:43:39 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Tethers and San Francisco >>>Actually, it's already canon that San Francisco is angel-controlled (I think it's not yet published, though -- FotM).<<< Ah, thanks. I couldn't remember if that bit was going into the FotM or not, and I like to be very careful about distinguishing stuff that's already been decided from stuff that's still being discussed... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:43:35 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Tethers and San Francisco >>>Clearly not written by people who live there. *grin* *tease*<<< I haven't actually lived in the city of San Francisco itself, but I've been a resident of the Bay Area for most of my adult life. >>>Personally, I can't see ANY major metropolitan area being either Angel or Demon controlled - except Detroit, and you'd have to have lived there to _Really_ appreciate it, like I have.<<< Remember, "angel-controlled" and "demon-controlled" doesn't mean the other side isn't active there -- it primarily means that one side has succeeded in eliminating most or all of the other side's Tethers, which gives them a significant advantage, tactically and strategically. Not every slum or crackhouse or sweatshop is a diabolical Tether, not every major landmark cathedral is a divine Tether -- in fact, only a tiny fraction become Tethers. So there can be plenty of diabolical or divine activity without their being able to actually get a Tether going...especially if the other side has gained the upper hand and is being very vigilant and proactive about putting all their resources in the city to work squashing any new enemy Tethers that seem to be forming. >>>Then again, this is In Nomine, and my expectations for details on a major metropolitan area are undoubtedly way too high, considering doing a huge city in say, 10 pages. I give my advice that I use myself to others - if you want to run a city like Chicago or Los Angeles or New York, and do it WELL, go down to your local bookstore and invest in some of the Fodor's Travel Guides (www.fodors.com) for locations, and sniff around the 'net for history and landmarks and pictures of things. They are undoubtedly more useful a resource then a handful of pages and some art.<<< Well, of course. Covering any real city for a game can by necessity only touch on the most important details, maybe a few offbeat "interesting bits," and then the game-specific stuff that obviously won't be found in any guidebook. I would never think of running In Nomine in Austin with _only_ Night Music as a reference, any more than I would actually run a GURPS Imperial Rome campaign with the GURPS book as my only reference on Imperial Rome! >>>(I mean LA is coming out, and I doubt we'll get any detail on the Mexican-American barrios in East LA, or the problems with immigration, or the bus schedule to Tijuana, or even one really good place to get tacos. I need sleazepits, not tourist attractions, as a GM.)<<< I think you will see some of that stuff, but of course everyone will want to see different things, and L.A. being such a vast place, not everything can be mentioned, even if the book was twice its planned size and covering nothing but the city itself. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:31:27 -0400 From: John Dye Subject: IN> Jordi, most dissonent of Archangels It strikes me that Jordi must be the most dissonent of archangels (Dominic should be informed, but then again, Dom doesnt' speak bug so how would he know?). I take this from two factors. First, according to Genesis (yes, I AM going to use it as a base In Nom source) God gave man domination over the plants and creatures of the air water etc. I'm not going to argue about HOW he was supposed to rule, but he was given charge of all of them. Now I really doubt Jordi ever believed that a naked, clawless house-ape would ever challange his incredibly broad Word, but it has and I'm betting Jordi's in denial. The second factor is that God has given out scads of Words only dealing with man and his problems. Quite frankly, Jordi is at best given a lateral position of little relevence. Unlike, say Novalis, who is for plants both of themselves, and how they interact with man in wholesome ways (food, decoration, protection, useful fibers), Jordi has narrowly defined his Word as "Animals Yes, Man NO!" which is frankly against the Divine Will. Jordi could try to integrate man with beast, with Man taking a stewardship like role, but I can't intrepret "Deny the lie that is civilization" as anything less then it is. Jordi is quite frankly as anti-man as the average demon. Too bad God doesn't feel the same way. Please bring on the bunny flames now. John Dye "It is a strange thing about determined seekers of wisdom, that, no matter where they happen to be, they'll always seek wisdom that is a long way off. Wisdom is one of the few things that look bigger the further away it is" Witches Abroad Terry Pratchett Allagory "Someone else's wisdom always seems wiser" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:44:22 -0400 From: Ron Carnegie Subject: Re: IN> Tethers and San Francisco At 02:08 PM 6/18/98 -0400, you wrote: > >> >Just my (not canon yet) take on it. >> >> Actually, it's already canon that San Francisco is angel-controlled (I >> think it's not yet published, though -- FotM). >> > >Clearly not written by people who live there. *grin* *tease* > Well as someone who has lived there if it is Angel controlled, it is sure being contested. Just look at how many good things about San Francisco have darker undertones beneath them. Frankly I think San Francisco is a perfect site for In Nomine (and in fact have been designing it for my own campaign). Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 03:12:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheep Boy Subject: IN> Tether destruction How can tethers be destroyed? Is it enough to destroy the building or whatever location happens to be housing it? Can they be destroyed from the Celestial side? Maybe just closed down and "boarded up" by Superiors? The destruction of tethers came up in a discussion tonight, and I realized I couldn't come up with a tether-destroying method that made much sense to me. Aren't they created by events or cicumstances? How important could the physical structure be? What about partial destruction, refurbishing, all that good stuff that goes on in the Corporeal plane. Could a tether theoretically age and crumble away? TIA, - Stavro stavro@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~stavro/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everybody talks about apathy, but nobody does anything about it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:24:53 -0400 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Angels are no tougher than Demons Message text written by INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Angels are no tougher than Demons (was Re: IN> Calabim... resonance?) Michael Tarr wrote: > What exactly makes an individual Angel more powerful than an individual > Demon? Looking at a newly-created Angel versus a newly-created Demon (as per > the book), I can't see a real advantage of an Angel over a Demon, apart from > the fact that an Infernal resonance can be resisted, being Will-based, whereas > a Divine resonance is nigh impossible to resist but sensory in nature. < Simple Answer: Angels have friends and comrades in arms. Demons have allies of convenience. Demons Know there is no one they can trust Angels know there are people they can call on. [It doesnt hurt that newly hatched demons are force 7 to the angels force 9] Adam Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, Ge 19:24 "Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; " ... And all the celestials in creation heard it and had headaches for days afterwards... "He looked out at the blue-green battlefield abd felt pity for the angels over whom they would fight. This time, however, he would not let that stop him. Yahweh had been a good teacher, Heavan a good school. Satan Had learned." closing text To Reign in Hell by Steven Brust ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 11:24 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Tether destruction >How can tethers be destroyed? Is it enough to destroy the building >or whatever location happens to be housing it? Not necessarily -- though that's usually a good start.... The answer depends on why exactly there's a Tether there. If it's due to current activity, stopping the activity will kill the Tether. If it's due to historical reasons (i.e., humans remembering and celebrating a historical event), then you need to cause people to forget the event, or at least change the perception of it. In other words, they best way to destroy a Tether is to break its connection to the Superior's Word, however that can be done. > Can they be destroyed from >the Celestial side? Maybe just closed down and "boarded up" by Superiors? The Superior who "owns" the Tether could "let go" of it, and it would eventually die away. (Or go "wild" -- this is a little complicated; I'm not go to try to type the whole canon thing I just wrote, here.) >The destruction of tethers came up in a discussion tonight, and I realized >I couldn't come up with a tether-destroying method that made much sense to >me. Aren't they created by events or cicumstances? Yes. > How important could >the physical structure be? Depends on the Tether. Destroying the physical structure may disrupt the Tether enough to break its Word connection long enough -- it may take a while to move a "current-activity" style event somewhere else, and the Tether may die in the meantime. > What about partial destruction, refurbishing, >all that good stuff that goes on in the Corporeal plane. Could a tether >theoretically age and crumble away? Yes. Pretty much all that stuff is covered in the Tether canon that will be in the Tethers book. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:18:39 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? In a message dated 6/17/98 6:24:55 PM, AmadanSJG@compuserve.com writes: (I'm not sure who he's responding to...) >>>>Ah sorry, wrong. The concept of original sin is still a driving force >in >Christianity.<<< > >>In _some_ denominations of Christianity. In others, it's kind of there >in >the background but certainly not a "driving force," and in others it's >not >mentioned at all. > > Which denominations of Protestant Christianity are you thinking of? All the denominations I know of, including the United Churches of Christ (also known as Unitarians Considering Christ), include a theological statement that mankind is Fallen, one way or the other, and that Christ's mission was redemptive, one way or the other. The ministers might not talk about it much, and they may couch it in less antagonistic terms, but it's there. > >>>>The whole concept of the Crucifixion is built around the >idea that mankind suffered from the mark of original sin and could not >achieve heaven. Christ supposedly died to remove that sin from man. So >you might think that the idea of original sin is no longer used because >of that. However many and most Protestant faith's use the concept that >if >you do not get baptized you cannot go to Heaven (minus the little caveat >that children who die get that free ticket through the pearly gates). >This idea is that man is inherently sinful and has to ask forgiveness of >his sins daily. There is a verse somewhere in the New Testament that >says, "If a man says that he does not sin, then he has sinned." Something >like that.<<< > >I believe you are wrong that most Protestant faiths believe you can't go >to >Heaven if you're not baptized. I know for a fact that not all of them do. > the verse is: "If any man says that he does not sin, he is deceived, and the Truth is not in him." Not all of the "Mainline Liberal" Protestant denominations require baptism for salvation, it's true, but there is some boundary that must be crossed. What that boundary is varies wildly from denomination to denomination. > >>>>There are some faiths that say, "If you lead a good life, God will call >you home." Most faiths say, "If you lead a good life, believe his >word, confess that Jesus is the son of God, and be baptized into the >church then God will call you home."<<< > >Again, I am not sure "most" is an accurate term here. > "Most faiths" is absurdly inaccurate. "Most Christian faiths" would be completely accurate. > >-David Mark (do I get essence for this?) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:47:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Tethers and San Francisco At 7:43 PM -0400 6/18/98, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>Clearly not written by people who live there. *grin* *tease*<<< > >I haven't actually lived in the city of San Francisco itself, but I've been >a resident of the Bay Area for most of my adult life. > > >>>>Personally, I can't see ANY major metropolitan area being either Angel >or >Demon controlled - except Detroit, and you'd have to have lived there to >_Really_ appreciate it, like I have.<<< > >Remember, "angel-controlled" and "demon-controlled" doesn't mean the other >side isn't active there -- [...] And it doesn't even mean that either side *controls*. For the most part, those darn humans control cities. And humans will creates pockets of goodness and badness. >[...]I would never think of running In Nomine in Austin with >_only_ Night Music as a reference, any more than I would actually run a >GURPS Imperial Rome campaign with the GURPS book as my only reference on >Imperial Rome! I'd run GURPS Imperial Rome with that book (and the Lindsey Davis _Falco_ books, and Hambly's _Search the Seven Hills_). I wouldn't vouch for my ability to make it historically accurate, but I'd run it... And I think I'd probably be able to 'fake it' with IN Austin (well, okay, I lived there too). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:15:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Shumaker Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity? On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: #"Most faiths" is absurdly inaccurate. "Most Christian faiths" would be #completely accurate. True. Sorry, I didnt make that distinction. - -Jim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:31:38 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Eli At 10:01 PM -0400 06/16/1998, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > Good question. Me, I've always assumed that it isn't always the >Superior who makes Vessels personally, he or she has better things to do. And I've always assumed that one of the things that define a Prince or an Archangel is precisely this ability. The Essence cost of providing the average Vessel is far beyond what even most Word-Bound can command. Same goes for making Hearts. Remember that *most* celestials DON'T have vessels, only those "elite" that are given duties on Earth, by definition these few have come to the personal attention of the aforementioned Servitors. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #831 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.