From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jun 22 16:59:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17043 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:59:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA29170 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:54:05 -0500 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:54:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199806222154.QAA29170@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #834 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, June 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 834 In this digest: IN> Choice of Virtues Re: IN> Choice of Virtues IN> Re: IN- Choice of Virtues Re: IN> Choice of Virtues IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #833 Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #833 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #833 IN> "Touched by an Angel" Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #833 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #833 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #833 IN> Which to buy? Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity Re: IN> Servitors of Eli Re: IN> Servitors of Eli Re: IN> Which to buy? Making Your Own Vessel (Was Re: IN> Servitors of Eli) Re: IN> Which to buy? IN> Mariel, DP of Oblivion (Re: Lower Hells (And a NEW question!)) Re: Strong Bodies (was Re: IN> Hearts) Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #833 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:36:15 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Choice of Virtues >>>I can afford either Liber Requilium, which has a bunch of songs, which I like, or Angelic Players Guide, which deals with characters. Can someone persuasively give me a reason to buy one over the other?<<< Well, if you only want the Liber Reliquarum for the Songs, I'd suggest buying the APG, and then buying the Songbook when it comes out. The Songbook will reprint all the Songs from the Liber Reliquarum (as well as from all other previous supplements). - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 07:38:25 EDT From: SienarFLT@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Choice of Virtues In a message dated 98-06-21 21:32:56 EDT, you write: > > I can afford either Liber Requilium, which has a bunch of songs, which I > > like, or Angelic Players Guide, which deals with characters. > > > > Can someone persuasively give me a reason to buy one over the other? > > > > Make your voice heard > > > > The APG is... um.... well... I did a review of it some time ago, and I > believe I ended up giving it a rating of a D+. We don't even talk about > the Kyrio extended resonance writeup. (What? There is one in the book? > Where?) Typos, poor wording, a Falling section that is nearly > unreadable... this book is unfortunately forgettable. Luckily, on the > flip side, the _Infernal Player's Guide_, while not really useful to a GM, > or at least not to me, is certainly an entertaining read, and _much_ more > professionally done. BUT if you're a player, the APG is the better bet. Just make sure you ask your GM which parts he/she wants to use or not use (because I don't like the kyrio's expanded res charts either and told my kyrio player as much right up front). One of my players bought the LR and I had to put them in their place by telling them that they may in fact never see any of that stuff (yeah right) and I certainly didn't want to be bugged by them saying, "When can I have this artifact? " -- Thom D. (reply to SienarFLT@aol.com) "Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god Superior to themselves. Most gods have the Manners and morals of a spoiled child." -- Lazarus Long. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:53:11 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Choice of Virtues > BUT if you're a player, the APG is the better bet. Just make sure you ask > your GM which parts he/she wants to use or not use (because I don't like the > kyrio's expanded res charts either and told my kyrio player as much right up > front). I quite liked it actually ;) Although I'm not using any of the expanded resonances. I just let people suggest stretching their resonances a bit when it seems appropriate and add a suitable modifier to the difficulty depending on what kind of mood I am in, how thematic it is, and whether I want them to have a good chance of doing it or not. I thought it was quite handy for players as it does put across a decent sense of angelic-ness. I also liked the list of suggested effects for divine interventions, which are sorted by circumstance, and the descriptions of how various AAs deal with their minions when they get dissonant. I can't remember offhand what else I liked, as I lent it to one of my players and haven't had it back yet (so she either liked it or lost it ;) ). Some of the choir discords are also quite nice (or evil, depending on whether you are a GM or player ;) ), as far as I can remember. The best part of the LR (in my opinion) is the section on relics that belong to superiors and the demon of mad science, which I want to adopt ;) As a source of plot ideas I've found it pretty good and I'd have no hesitation in recommending it on that basis, but the songs honestly aren't worth it. I remember semi-liking one of them but not the rest. Anyway, it's almost as good in the inspiration-providing department as Heaven & Hell, which I rather liked, especially the Hell section. jo Dischord (sic) of the week: Gullible (Balseraph) Your personal truth is so flexible that you are more vulnerable than most to the wiles of Balseraphs and other mundane liars. You have a natural inclination and talent for listening to other people's 'truths' and incorporating them seamlessly into your own. All your willpower rolls to resist the balseraph resonance, fast-talk or lying skills are made at a penalty of this discord. Balseraphs with this discord can of course attempt to push their 'new improved truth' back onto the original liar which can lead to interesting vicious circles, especially if the discordant one is also paranoid. (Everyone is out to get you! Everything they say is true and bears hidden meanings, even if they don't realise it! They are all brainwashed! Only you know the truth!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:34:07 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Choice of Virtues John Dye wrote: > I can afford either Liber Requilium, which has a bunch of songs, which I > like, or Angelic Players Guide, which deals with characters. > > Can someone persuasively give me a reason to buy one over the other? > > Make your voice heard. The Liber Reliquarum, definitely. IMHO, equipping a PC or NPC with one memorable artifact can do more to flesh it out and give it color than all the character advice in the APG. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 07:29:54 PDT From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #833 Hi. First, thanks to those who answered my previous questions. Got one more now, though. See I thought I had the Kyriotate/Shedim thang sussed, but then me brain packed up. Anyhoo, I would just like to know what stats a Kyrio uses? In the rulebook it says the angel's Str & Agl replaces the hosts during possession, does that imply that he uses the host's Int, Prec, Will & Per? Same for Forces? This must also mean Body Hits are worked out as per Night music (Toughness + Corporeal x Strength) but using the angel's Str instead? And do Kyrios disturb the symphony whilst 'in' humans? I notice that the Heaven and Hell book introduces a new DP called Mammon. He looks interesting but all I can think about is his word is synonymous with Haagenti's. What about the sections under Gluttony that talk of overloaded credit cards and such? This makes me wonder how the Words were chosen when the book was written (by either Mr. Pearcy or 'Croc'). This is NOT a criticism (Hell, I love this game, despite how it was received by the UK Gaming Press, well Arcane, anyway!), it's just something I though upon first reading the book. I kinda half-expected these Words to be like the seven deadly sins or whatever. Some in fact do seem a little too specialised. I mean why is Novalis' word 'Flowers', instead of 'Peace' specifically. I mean you would think that the latter is a more far reaching and potent Word, and that whoever has that surely overrules 'Flowers'. Just curious! Oh, by the way, has anyone had any dealings with the Spear of Destiny in IN. Having just brought the Liber Reliquarum, I haven't found it inside (which may have been a good thing). It's a cliched idea really, but I would like to try to introduce it as an element in my campaign, perhaps as more of a storytelling device/allegorical er thing! I want to experiment with roleplaying IN at the time of Christ, y'see. (Someone else must have tried this, any thoughts.) Marnie - getting there soon... "It wasn't with the words that kept sticking in their throats, it wasn't with the angels and their quilted coats...these battered wings still kick up dust." (Peter Gabriel). PS: Also, has anyone here any experience of the French 'original' (in quotes because I hear ours is verrrrrrry different). I found a few pages on the net, but my Song of Tongues failed....! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:30:00 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity I think there has been a case of crossed purposes here, or two issues being confused. Perhaps it is all in my own head, but: On the one hand, there is the question of whether or not most Christian denominations believe in original sin or some concept very much like it. On th other hand, there is the question of whether or not most Christian denominations believe that only Christains can go to heaven. These are two distinct questions. I think the answer to the first question is that almost any Christian denomination that is conservative in whole or in part belives in original sin. Certainly Catholics, Orthodox, and conservative Protestants do, so the numerical bulk of Christians belong to denomininations that believe in original sin, whatever their own views on it. It is probably the bulk of denominations, too, since people who splinter off to found denominations are very often of a conservative or reactionary mood. I am less sure about the second question, but I believe that most denominations have various escape clauses for non-Christians. The Catholics certainly do, and as far back as 1300, Dante put virtuous pagan emperors in his Heaven of Jupiter, as part of the "Paradiso" section of his Divine Comedy. On the other end of the heresy spectrum, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that virtually everyone will be resurrected for a chance at salvation, after Armageddon, with only particularly wicked people damned before that; religious affiliation won't signify (EXCEPT that, by Armageddon, only the stubbornly wicked will fail to convert to Witnesses...). Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:52:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #833 On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Martin Arnold wrote: > Anyhoo, I would just like to know what stats a Kyrio uses? In the > rulebook it says the angel's Str & Agl replaces the hosts during > possession, does that imply that he uses the host's Int, Prec, Will & > Per? Same for Forces? No. They just figured that it'd be obvious that the angel would use his own mental and spiritual stats, so they didn't need to mention that. > This must also mean Body Hits are worked out as per Night music > (Toughness + Corporeal x Strength) but using the angel's Str instead? > And do Kyrios disturb the symphony whilst 'in' humans? Kyrio's body hits are calculated the same as for any other angel, using the host's Corporeal Forces as a vessel level. > I notice that the Heaven and Hell book introduces a new DP called > Mammon. He looks interesting but all I can think about is his word is > synonymous with Haagenti's. What about the sections under Gluttony that > talk of overloaded credit cards and such? I agree. In my game, Mammon is a weakened DP, overshadowed by Haagenti, without the power to challenge him directly. > Oh, by the way, has anyone had any dealings with the Spear of Destiny in > IN. That's one of those ancient sacred relics that you don't see much canon on. LR had canon for the Holy Grail, which I thought was a mistake; I'm glad they didn't do ALL the holy artifacts. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "relationshit - n. - A loss of Slack from a really bad relationship" -- MDisaster (#subgenii, us.sorcery.net) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:11:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #833 > That's one of those ancient sacred relics that you don't see much canon > on. LR had canon for the Holy Grail, which I thought was a mistake; I'm > glad they didn't do ALL the holy artifacts. And an extremely incorrect Lapis Judaicus - The Judas Grail. (Which I've been meaning to post, but just haven't been able to, due to not remembering anything anymore.) I totally, 100%, absolutely agree with you, and am too glad that all holy artifacts didn't make their way in there. It was a mistake, considering that it utterly nullifies any crazy Sangraal/Rennes-la-Chateux threads that could have popped up as major adventures - which are great IN adventure seeds. It's a cup in canon, with some of it's features defined, so there goes all of that wackiness, let alone all the weird alchemy pieces associated with the Lapis Exilius. (It was all the Templars!) I was just thanking the Great Gods of Taste that they didn't do the Ark of the Covenant. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:19:52 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> "Touched by an Angel" CBS airs a show on Sunday nights called "Touched by an Angel." In general, I don't suppose it would mesh well with IN, but David Edelstein has worked up some material for it (see http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/DavidEdelstein/Innomine/Touched.htm) and I have recently seen a couple of things that might appeal to IN GMs. In one recent show, one of the angels was invisibly present with and comforting a political prisoner in China. The guards turned several non-political prisoners loose on her, who had been told they would get reduced sentences for beating her to death. The prisoners proceeded to try. Using a lot of fast camera cuts, they conveyed that the angel, visible only to the political prisoner, interposed herself and took the blows for her. To the thugs, it looked like the prisoner was eerily invulnerable. (The prisoner later died by being thrown down the stairs by a guard, while the angel tried to clear her head.) Such a "sacrifice play" using a bit of invisibility looks like a perfect move for a cherub or one of Zadkiel's protectors. In the latest show, the three regular angels were called in on a job in a hurry, their feathers ruffled by the rush and the lack of briefing. The senior angel, Tess (whom David pegs as an Elohite) complains that, in such situations, something always falls through the cracks. In this case, one death angel is unable to make his appointment, and asks Andrew, the show's regular death angel, to subsitute for him. ("Sorry I couldn't make it. I had this sweet old lady in Chicago, 89, all her affairs in order, couldn't wait to go home, but just as I showed, Wheel of Fortune went into double-jeapardy and she wouldn't leave till she saw how it came out." And moments later, "Have to run. I've got a scuba-diving crisis in seven minutes, and it could go either way.") Because of the rush, Andrew winds up solemnly informing the wrong person that she has only hours to live. This precipitates a moral crisis, which involves the woman going to confront her chief professional rival and straighten things out. In so doing, she arrives in the nick of time to save the life of the rival, who was the person the death angel was SUPPOSED to warn. So, the angels, by screwing up, saved one life and one soul. Clearly an off-stage d111 somewhere. I'm not offering this particular plot, but the idea that angels (particularly those of Yves, perhaps) produce providential lucky breaks even by accident is one GMs could use. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:29:24 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #833 Em: I would like to hear more abou; the Judas Grail, if you'd care to expand on it. I never heard of it before. For those who like to roll their own artifacts, here is a list I compiled one dull afternoon, of possibles, taken from the Bible in more or less chronological order: wood from the Tree of Knowledge wood from the Tree of Life flaming swords of the cherubim of Eden the stone that slew Abel the sword of Tubal-Cain the flute of Jubal wood from Noah's Ark wine from Noah's vinyard stones from the Tower of Babel the circumcision blades of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or the tribal patriarchs knife & altar that Abraham intented for Isaac the rod of Aaron the rod of Moses the Golden Calf (or fragments thereof) the fragments of the Ten Commandments, first draft the Ten Commandments and the Ark of the Covenant the Urim and Thumim the high priest's breastplate any of the furniture of the Tabernacle the Brazen Serpent the horns that brought down Jericho Elijah's flaming chariot David's sling Goliath's shield & spear Saul's crown Saul's sword David's crown Bathsheba's crown Solomon's crown Bilkis's crown (Bilkis = the Queen of Sheba) furniture from Solomon's Temple the Magis' gold, frankincense, and myrrh Judas' 30 pieces of silver Peter's sword Peter's fishnet wood from the True Cross Holy Grail Holy Spear Veronica's Veil Christ's seamless garment Christ's shroud a tent made by St. Paul from Revelation: the crown of the White Horseman the sword of the Red Horseman the scales of the Black Horseman the scythe of the Pale Horseman the seven trumpets of the archangels the angel's censer the seven skulls of the Beast the ten horns of the Beast the two horns of the False Prophet Satan's chain the seven skulls of Satan the ten horns of Satan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:19:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #833 > Em: > I would like to hear more abou; the Judas Grail, if you'd care > to expand on it. I never heard of it before. Sure, okay. By the way, that list of artifacts rock. Absolutely rock. I had most of those in my little artifact bucket of cool stuff, but I missed a few. The ones that really looks like they're missing are (off the top of my head): Joseph's Coat of Many Colors. The Nails used on Jesus Christ. The Shroud of Turin (which may have been used on Jaques de Molay). *********************************************************************** My memory, in my old age, is coming and going, so this is what I remember about the Judas Grail. Anyone who wants to do some serious web-based reading on the Occult should go hit Tim Marony's Website at www.maroney.org, where he has an excellent list of links on all sorts of things, including Freemasonry and the GD. He likes to argue, but he usually sounds mostly sane. :) The alchemy virtual library is at www.levity.com/alchemy/index.html. Good luck finding anything in there, because it's huge, as there are something like 4000 alchemical books not including side treatsies and magazines. Somewhere in that mess are my references, heck if I have the time to drudge it all up again. And don't sniff the mercury! THE JUDAS GRAIL - the Lapis Judaicus and THE HOLY GRAIL - the Lapis Exillis The Judas Grail is said to have been formed from one of the stones of Lucifer's Crown, which became dislodged and fell to earth as the Prince of Light was cast out of Heaven into the darkness of Hell - thus the name 'The Stone of the Traitor'. It technically has nothing to do with Judas Iscariot or the last supper. The Judas Grail itself is supposedly one of the main components of the Philosopher's Stone, and was heavily sought during the middle ages, with heavy overtones of demonology. It was said that when a substance was placed within the plain, non-descript grey cup, it would be endowed with the breath of life. So, if you placed someone's ashes into the cup after they had been cremated, they would be endowed with a little bit of life. The Judas Grail was the cup of transformation, the one bit of substance when added to the proper mixture would be the lost catalyst to transform one substance into another and lead to a deeper understanding of the universe. [Em's aside - Alchemy was not all about changing lead into gold, btw. That's a popularization of the highest degree.] Add in IN required stats here. In fact, the Judas Grail is the opposite of the Lapis Exillis, which was claimed to be held by the Templars, and then later the Freemasons and buried in a church in Scotland: "A hermit is describing the grail castle to Parzifal. The Gral is guarded by the Templars "I will tell you how they are nourished. They live from a Stone whose essence is most pure. If you have never heard of it I shall name it for you here. It is called `Lapsit exillis'." - Wolfram von Eschenbach, "Parzifal" With the Lapis Exillis, whomever drank from the cup would be returned to health and 'would have their colour restored and not die for a week' (de Troyes, I believe). It was also considered a different facet of the Philosopher's Stone, in some texts, appearing with a lance, a sword, and a disk. In different alchemical texts, the Lapis Exillis is not a cup but just a stone, which could be used in a process to create potions that would effect life. If you want to go shooting off into Weirdland (which I do, for my own reason), then I can suggest two books: HOLY BLOOD, HOLY GRAIL - Michael Baignent Perfect for the Sangraal junky in your life! FOUCALT'S PENDULUM - Umberto Eco Wacky occult novel, with all sorts of good quotes. Does that work? - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:41:24 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #833 Thank you for the material on the Judas Grail and alchemy. I am annoyed with myself over missing the artifacts you name, particularly Joseph's coat. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:49:00 +0100 From: Simon Killingray Subject: IN> Which to buy? Hello, before I start can I just say a big thank you to all those people who took the time to write back to me telling me I was on the list. I was not getting any mail at the time and was confused that problem has now been corrected. My main question to the list is this. I have recently purchaed a copy of the In Nomine core rules and intend to GM it at some point. And I was wandering which of the accesories to buy. I suppose what I'm getting at is, is there a clear 'pecking' order of books. Would it be more sensible to buy book 1 of the revalations series before buying book 3 for instance or do they all stand on there own and not refer to each other? I also hear that there has been some change in the offical combat rules. (something about coperal fores times strength rather than plus strength or some such!) As well as several unoffical 'bug' fixes on the linked In-Nomine Web sites. Could some kind list subscriber enlight me with reguard to the changes. Also I was reading one of the adventures on the web I believe it was authored by archangel beth. (Not that it's relavent) but it gave a class stat for a demon. What is the stat CLASS! I don't remember reading of it in the core rules, of course I could be wrong I don't often like to admit this to anyone but I am failble. Or does it come from one of the accessorys and as such is not included in the core rules. On a slightly off-topic note is it possible to subscribe to pryamid mag. in the UK? Or is it worth subscribing to pryamid mag. I think thjats enough questions for now, Now if I can only get some answers. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Simon Killingray "I know you miss the Wainrights, Bobby, but they were weak and stupid people-and that's why we have wolves and other large predators." - Gary Larson. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- See my site on the Web at: http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~smu96spk/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:18:14 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity In a message dated 6/22/98 7:37:40 AM, earlw@mc.com writes: >I think there has been a case of crossed purposes here, or >two issues being confused. Perhaps it is all in my own head, >but: > >On the one hand, there is the question of whether or not most >Christian denominations believe in original sin or some concept >very much like it. > >On the other hand, there is the question of whether or not most >Christian denominations believe that only Christians can go >to heaven. > >These are two distinct questions. > >I think the answer to the first question is that almost any >Christian denomination that is conservative in whole or in part >believes in original sin. Certainly Catholics, Orthodox, and >conservative Protestants do, so the numerical bulk of Christians >belong to denominations that believe in original sin, whatever >their own views on it. It is probably the bulk of denominations, >too, since people who splinter off to found denominations are >very often of a conservative or reactionary mood. > >I am less sure about the second question, but I believe that >most denominations have various escape clauses for non-Christians. >The Catholics certainly do, and as far back as 1300, Dante put >virtuous pagan emperors in his Heaven of Jupiter, as part of the >"Paradiso" section of his Divine Comedy. On the other end of the >heresy spectrum, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that virtually everyone >will be resurrected for a chance at salvation, after Armageddon, >with only particularly wicked people damned before that; religious >affiliation won't signify (EXCEPT that, by Armageddon, only the >stubbornly wicked will fail to convert to Witnesses...). > >Earl Thanks, Earl. I was missing the forest because there were too many trees in the way. Not to disagree with anything said here, but one link that Earl may have missed is that, in most Christian theology, even though there may be 'enlightened pagans' in heaven, they are there as a direct result of the redeeming work of Jesus Christ. (Again, this is mostly Catholic/Orthodox/Evangelical, with a strong sprinkling of Mainline Protestant.) Another point that may be relevant is that Original Sin, as a doctrine, is separate from the 'Fundamentalist' view of a literal belief in the Garden of Eden narrative. Thus, there are many 'Liberal' Protestant denominations who don't talk about original sin as such, but believe that Humanity's basic nature is flawed. (Not evil. Never say evil in front of a UCC minister, I made that mistake once...) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:04:04 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> "Pagan" Christianity MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > Not to disagree with anything said here, but one link that Earl may > have missed is that, in most Christian theology, even though there > may be 'enlightened pagans' in heaven, they are there as a direct > result of the redeeming work of Jesus Christ. (Again, this is mostly > Catholic/Orthodox/Evangelical, with a strong sprinkling of Mainline > Protestant.) Right. I did not mean to imply otherwise. C. S. Lewis said something similar in "Mere Christianity" (a book giving a clear and general description of the common denominator in all Christianity anywhere near mainstream). He made the following analogy: everyone who escapes getting scurvy does so by getting enough vitamin C, whether or not they ever heard of vitamin C, and even if they actively disbelieve in vitamin C. But of course you are likelier to take steps to ensure your vitamin C supply if you've heard of it and believe in it. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:59:53 -0700 From: alloni@ibsystems.com (Alloni Kramer) Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Eli >> Good question. Me, I've always assumed that it isn't always the >>Superior who makes Vessels personally, he or she has better things to do. > > And I've always assumed that one of the things that define a Prince or an >Archangel is precisely this ability. The Essence cost of providing the >average Vessel is far beyond what even most Word-Bound can command. Same >goes for making Hearts. Remember that *most* celestials DON'T have >vessels, only those "elite" that are given duties on Earth, by definition >these few have come to the personal attention of the aforementioned >Servitors. But... um, if I remember correctly, can't celestials trapped in limbo create their own vessals (after waiting forever and a day)? Does that mean it's a specific ability of Limbo to allow vessal creation, or that it simply requires a whole bunch o' essance to do, and only in Limbo can you collect that much together? - --The Mazing Looni, E.S.I.T. and co-savior _________________________________________________________________________ Alloni Kramer alloni@ibsystems.com "I'll tell you one thing; I am most assuredly NOT what I am. That is never any fun." -Psi Hunt, Michael Kurland ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:20:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Eli > But... um, if I remember correctly, can't celestials trapped in limbo > create their own vessals (after waiting forever and a day)? Does that mean > it's a specific ability of Limbo to allow vessal creation, or that it > simply requires a whole bunch o' essance to do, and only in Limbo can you > collect that much together? I would rule that celestials can eventually create their own vessels, but it's not exactly time or cost effective. You need, what, thousands of essence and your little form can only hold up to # of forces. So you need to collect and deposit, collect and deposit... and where is it going to stay? It's just more direct to go find a friendly Superior and let them shpow you a vessel, or maybe Jeantech can make them for you wholesale, fronted by Marc's corporations. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:26:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Which to buy? At 5:49 PM +0100 6/22/98, Simon Killingray wrote: [...] >Would it be more sensible to >buy book 1 of the revalations series before buying book 3 for instance or >do they all stand on there own and not refer to each other? Well, 4 and 5 are tightly coupled to each other (and not yet published), but the others all have enough stand-alone material that you can pick them up... Night Music has the revised rules for human body-hits, some buggy rules about drugs and poisons and diseases, Expanded Superior writeups, a couple new Superiors, In Nomine Austin -- and the adventure. The Marches gives Expanded Superior writeups, Sorcerers, The Marches, some of the ethereals, and an adventure/setting that has been called the weakest of the adventures. Heaven & Hell has Expanded Superior Writeups, 2 new minor Superiors, Heaven, Hell, Limbo, and an amusing little adventure. FotM (not yet published) has Expanded Superior Writeups, a city, and an adventure. It also has more detail on Geases. And maybe some other stuff. FT (not yet published) has Expanded Superior Writeups, new Superiors, an adventure. And maybe some other stuff. The APG (Angelic Players' Guide) has more stuff for the Choirs and angels in general. The IPG (Infernal Players' Guide) has more stuff for the Bands and demons in general. I wrote the Redemption section of it -- go buy it and tell me you love it. The Liber Reliquarium is the Big Book Of Relics. It also has a couple of adventures. >I also hear that there has been some change in the offical combat rules. >(something about coperal fores times strength rather than plus strength or >some such!) As well as several unoffical 'bug' fixes on the linked >In-Nomine Web sites. Could some kind list subscriber enlight me with >reguard to the changes. http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/errata -- and the combat change is that it's "Corporeal Forces + Strength + (Fighting or Weapon skill)", IIRC. >Also I was reading one of the adventures on the web I believe it was >authored by archangel beth. (Not that it's relavent) but it gave a class >stat for a demon. What is the stat CLASS! Probably for a demon's *servant* -- that's on p. 45 of the main book. >On a slightly off-topic note is it possible to subscribe to pryamid mag. in >the UK? Or is it worth subscribing to pryamid mag. Pyramid has one more paper copy left -- $30. Check out http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid for instructions on how to subscribe to the Web-version, which is REALLY COOL. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:43:51 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Making Your Own Vessel (Was Re: IN> Servitors of Eli) On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Alloni Kramer wrote: > But... um, if I remember correctly, can't celestials trapped in limbo > create their own vessals (after waiting forever and a day)? Does that mean > it's a specific ability of Limbo to allow vessal creation, or that it > simply requires a whole bunch o' essance to do, and only in Limbo can you > collect that much together? My personal opinion is that it just requires an enormous amount of Essence to create a Vessel. I suppose that any Celestial could theoretically do it anywhere. However, most Celestials just do not have the Essence reserves to create even a Vessel/1 on their own. Archangels and Demon Princes, on the other hand, do. Using this as a model, perhaps that is how Eli's Servitors create new Vessels. Eli set things up before he left so that any Servitor of his who needed a new Vessel could tap into the Essence generated by his Tethers. Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to capture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment, or a company entire than to destroy them. -Sun Tzu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:51:26 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Which to buy? On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Night Music has the revised rules for human body-hits, some buggy > rules about drugs and poisons and diseases, Expanded Superior writeups, > a couple new Superiors, In Nomine Austin -- and the adventure. Buggy doesn't even *begin* to describe the drug rules. I had to threaten to bust heads at one point to keep my players from having their angels become caffine and nicotine laced cigarette and coffee addicts, just to get the extra Precision. Please tell me that those rules have been errated, or will be soon. > FotM (not yet published) has Expanded Superior Writeups, a city, > and an adventure. It also has more detail on Geases. And maybe > some other stuff. > > FT (not yet published) has Expanded Superior Writeups, new Superiors, > an adventure. And maybe some other stuff. Any idea when these will be published? Every time I check, they've been pushed back another month... > The IPG (Infernal Players' Guide) has more stuff for the Bands and > demons in general. I wrote the Redemption section of it -- go buy it > and tell me you love it. I love it. I really do. And I would be more than happy to be able to tell you I love the sections you wrote for Fall of the Malakim and Final Trump...hint, hint, hint. :) (Just kidding, but I would like to know when they will be out, if there is a definate release date.) Richard "Mr. Uriel" Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to capture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment, or a company entire than to destroy them. -Sun Tzu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:11:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Mariel, DP of Oblivion (Re: Lower Hells (And a NEW question!)) At 11:34 AM -0700 6/21/98, Graveyard Greg wrote: >By the way, what Choir was the Demon Princess of Oblivion, before she >became an appetizer for Haggenti? Quite out of Canon, I've always felt she was Habbalite-ish, for some *utterly unknown* reason. However, that would make her a "late Fall", since no Elohim Fell during the initial Rebellion, according to the APG, which may not fit the timing well. Perhaps a Balseraph, or a Djinn? I just don't see an Ofanite or Kyriotate as being an Angel of Memory, for some reason, though. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:17:36 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Strong Bodies (was Re: IN> Hearts) At 3:45 PM -0400 6/21/98, eswhanu@juno.com wrote: >I would think that fleeing to Earth would necessitate having Corporeal >Forces, in order to maintain a Vessel. Remember the story from Heaven >and Hell? Domenic stripped the angel of all her Corporeal Forces. If you're a full angel or demon. Relievers and demonlings can get away with no CorpForces if they have a Job To Do. I would allow someone to go down a Tether, maybe, even without Corp Forces or a vessel -- but they get yanked back up when their time limit is up. Of course, such unauthorized excursions will be punished appropriately if anyone finds out. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:33:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #833 At 7:29 AM -0700 6/22/98, Martin Arnold wrote: >Hi. First, thanks to those who answered my previous questions. Got one >more now, though. See I thought I had the Kyriotate/Shedim thang sussed, >but then me brain packed up. > >Anyhoo, I would just like to know what stats a Kyrio uses? Its own. (I think all this is in the APG.) Body Hits are figured as for celestials, with the "level" of the "vessel" equal to: (host's Corp Forces + Toughness). The APG may well be worth it for just the Kyrio clarifications, I sometimes think. >And do Kyrios disturb the symphony whilst 'in' humans? Yes. And hitting a non-vessel host *also* disturbs the Symphony. >PS: Also, has anyone here any experience of the French 'original' (in >quotes because I hear ours is verrrrrrry different). I found a few pages >on the net, but my Song of Tongues failed....! babelfish.altavista.digital.com is the place to go, to get your mechanical Song of Tongues. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #834 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.