From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jun 23 18:24:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24172 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:24:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA24982 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:26:39 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:26:39 -0500 Message-Id: <199806232326.SAA24982@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #835 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, June 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 835 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #831 Re: IN> Tether destruction Re: IN> Which to buy? Re: IN> Which to buy? Re: IN> Which to buy? IN> Archangel Words IN> The Spear of Destiny IN> Haagenti and Mammon IN> Holy Relics IN> Holy Artifacts IN> Holy Artifacts Re: IN> Archangel Words Re: IN> Archangel Words IN> Fall of The Malikim Re: Making Your Own Vessel (Was Re: IN> Servitors of Eli) IN> SERIOUS FLUFF!: Some game quotes for ya! Re: IN> Holy Relics Re: IN> Holy Relics Re: IN> Holy Relics Re: IN> Holy Relics Re: IN> Holy Artifacts Re: IN> Archangel Words [bordering toward long] Re: IN> Archangel Words [bordering toward long] IN> Flowers Re: IN> Archangel Words [bordering toward long] Re: IN> Archangel Words [bordering toward long] IN> Return to the List Re: IN> Return to the List ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 18:12 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #831 >> > Fall of the Malakim >> >> Which is the fourth book in the Revelations cycle of adventure >> supplements for IN. > >Which, hopefully, will be out before I die of old age. It seems likely -- it's fairly close to going to the printer, from what I understand. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 18:19 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Tether destruction >Just conversationally, is this mysterious "Tether book" set for >publication and distribution some time soon? Probably not "soon", as in, any time before at least late this year. It's in *very* early stages yet. I don't know what the actual schedule plans might be, though it just recently got assigned a first-draft deadline. That doesn't necessarily imply when the book might come out, though. (Other than it clearly won't come out *before* then....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:23:40 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Which to buy? At 4:51 PM -0400 6/22/98, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Buggy doesn't even *begin* to describe the drug rules. I had to threaten >to bust heads at one point to keep my players from having their angels >become caffine and nicotine laced cigarette and coffee addicts, just to >get the extra Precision. Please tell me that those rules have been >errated, or will be soon. I have my eyes on them, and my pen at the ready... (I need to figure out how the rules *should* be done, and I have one of my best rules-meisters, who promised me fixes, working on Other Stuff.) The other thing you can do is submit silly rules to the Murphy's Rules section of Pyramid. >> FotM (not yet published) [...] FT (not yet published) [...] > >Any idea when these will be published? Every time I check, they've been >pushed back another month... They are progressing. I have done, I believe, my final nitpick on them. I can't talk about anything specific, since there's always a chance that an editor will have a family emergency, the Secret Service will raid again, I'll discover that someone has ignored my instructions to not make Furfur topple Lucifer and play chess with God ("That's not in character"), or some other Infernal/Divine Intervention... And if I've given a specific date, then you all feel cheated. But I am looking at stuff and feeling cheeful, right now. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:38:05 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Which to buy? >At 4:51 PM -0400 6/22/98, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >>On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> > >They are progressing. I have done, I believe, my final nitpick on >them. I can't talk about anything specific, since there's always >a chance that an editor will have a family emergency, the Secret >Service will raid again, I'll discover that someone has ignored my >instructions to not make Furfur topple Lucifer and play chess with >God ("That's not in character"), or some other Infernal/Divine >Intervention... I would never have Furfur topple Lucifer and challenge God to a game of Chess. Furfur's more of a Battleship type dude, y'know? };-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, web pages beyond belief http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/milkmaid/ - The Magnificent Milkmaid ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 18:56 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Which to buy? >Night Music has the revised rules for human body-hits, some buggy >rules about drugs and poisons and diseases, Expanded Superior writeups, >a couple new Superiors, In Nomine Austin -- and the adventure. Also the expanded stuff on Soldiers, Undead, and Saints. If you want to have "human" characters in your game, this stuff is fairly useful (though a wee bit glitchy here and there). Right now, it's the only place to find this stuff (the bits in the core book are *really* sketchy). The other two books already out in the Revelations cycle (The Marches, Heaven & Hell) are most useful to GMs, unless you want some of the expanded Superior writeups, which are probably my favorite parts of the cycle books so far. The APG and IPG are rather useful, but the APG suffers from a number of problems, which others have mentioned. The IPG is much better. (OK, so I wrote some bits of it, so I'm biased....) The Liber Reliquarum is pretty good, but is probably somewhat less immediately useful than Night Music and the two Player's Guides. It probably has more appeal for GMs than players, though there's useful stuff in there for both. My recommendations would depend on what route you want to take first. If you want human characters, you probably should get Night Music first. If you're going to have mostly celestials, I'd suggest the APG or IPG first (depending on which side the players will be on), even given the problems with the APG. The LR is good, but I'd probably put it after NM, APG, and IPG as a priority -- it's better-written, but not quite as generally useful. I consider the Marches and Heaven and Hell as "background" books, and probably of secondary importance, unless you just *have* to have one of the expanded Superiors. If the characters stay mostly in the corporeal realm, you don't really need the expanded stuff on the ethereal (Marches) and the celestial (H&H), except maybe for "color". If you want to follow the adventures in the cycle, you'll need NM and the two forthcoming books (Fall of the Malakim and Final Trumpet) primarily -- Marches and Heaven and Hell don't contribute much there, in my opinion, though the H&H adventure is peripherally relevant. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:56:28 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Archangel Words >>>Some in fact do seem a little too specialised. I mean why is Novalis' word 'Flowers', instead of 'Peace' specifically. I mean you would think that the latter is a more far reaching and potent Word, and that whoever has that surely overrules 'Flowers'. Just curious!<<< Novalis's Word is not specialized -- _because_ she is an Archangel, her Word encompasses its metaphorical as well as its literal aspects. So she is the Archangel of plants, and also the Archangel of pretty blossoms specifically, and also the Archangel of peace and love and tralalalala. (Hmmm...Servitor of Flowers, "Angel of Tralalalala"....nah.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:56:24 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Spear of Destiny >>>Oh, by the way, has anyone had any dealings with the Spear of Destiny in IN. Having just brought the Liber Reliquarum, I haven't found it inside (which may have been a good thing). It's a cliched idea really, but I would like to try to introduce it as an element in my campaign, perhaps as more of a storytelling device/allegorical er thing! I want to experiment with roleplaying IN at the time of Christ, y'see. (Someone else must have tried this, any thoughts.)<<< The Spear of Destiny doesn't appear in the Liber Reliquarum because it's in Night Music (p. 39). - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:00:43 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Haagenti and Mammon >>>I agree. In my game, Mammon is a weakened DP, overshadowed by Haagenti, without the power to challenge him directly.<<< Note that canonically, Mammon _is_ a *minor* Demon Prince, whereas Haagenti is a major DP. All the AAs and DPs in the main rulebook are the current heavy-hitters, while all Superiors published after that (Christopher, Zadkiel, Mammon, Fleurity, etc.) can be assumed to be of significantly lesser stature. So, Mammon is overshadowed by Haagenti in canon as well. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:05:16 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Holy Relics >>>And an extremely incorrect Lapis Judaicus - The Judas Grail.<<< Not incorrect -- just _an_ artifact that Malphas made which he calls the Judas Grail. If you want to use a different artifact in your campaign....well, you think Malphas wouldn't lie about his creation being the one that Judas actually drank from? ;) >>>I was just thanking the Great Gods of Taste that they didn't do the Ark of the Covenant.<<< It almost made it in, but got cut for space. :þ - -David (but don't worry, it might make it into a Pyramid article, and you can rant then) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:09:32 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Holy Artifacts >>>For those who like to roll their own artifacts, here is a list I compiled one dull afternoon, of possibles, taken from the Bible in more or less chronological order:<<< Have you thought about doing these as a Pyramid article? :) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:09:32 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Holy Artifacts >>>For those who like to roll their own artifacts, here is a list I compiled one dull afternoon, of possibles, taken from the Bible in more or less chronological order:<<< Have you thought about doing these as a Pyramid article? :) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:16:50 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Words On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, David Edelstein wrote: [snip] > (Hmmm...Servitor of Flowers, "Angel of Tralalalala"....nah.) yeah, i could do without the final "la" myself, too ;) -=|horsefly|=- .sigless for the afternoon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:21:19 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Words >Novalis's Word is not specialized -- _because_ she is an Archangel, her >Word encompasses its metaphorical as well as its literal aspects. So she is >the Archangel of plants, and also the Archangel of pretty blossoms >specifically, and also the Archangel of peace and love and tralalalala. >(Hmmm...Servitor of Flowers, "Angel of Tralalalala"....nah.) . o O (Angel of Gingham Dresses) AB ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:33:52 EDT From: DrHarmoney@aol.com Subject: IN> Fall of The Malikim Thanks to everyone who answered my question. Take Care - -Ray ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:00:01 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: Making Your Own Vessel (Was Re: IN> Servitors of Eli) At 04:43 PM -0400 06/22/1998, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >Using this as a model, perhaps that is how Eli's Servitors create new >Vessels. Eli set things up before he left so that any Servitor of his who >needed a new Vessel could tap into the Essence generated by his Tethers. > That depends on how sane or crazy Eli was/will be in your campaign. The Servitors he leant out either way, have no problem as the Superior they serve pro tem has that responsiblility. The few freelancers might be stuck making their own arrangements which would be part of the price of serving a Superior who no longer bothers to look after his own. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:27:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: IN> SERIOUS FLUFF!: Some game quotes for ya! "What the Foul Filth?" Isaiah, Malakite of the Sword A Mercurian of Creation in Service to Lightning was trying to demonstrate the concept of mathmatics to a Kyriotate of Destiny Mercurian: Ok, you're a ten Force angel, right? If you posessed two normal humans, how many Forces would you have left? Kyriotate: It depends on what kind of human I'm posessing. Mercurian: (mumbles as he shakes his head) Zen and Mathematics... Just thought I'd share! :) Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:58:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Holy Relics On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>I was just thanking the Great Gods of Taste that they didn't do the Ark > of the Covenant.<<< > > It almost made it in, but got cut for space. :þ > > -David (but don't worry, it might make it into a Pyramid article, and you > can rant then) Nah, we don't need stats for it. We've all seen _Raiders of the Lost Ark_, after all. What else do you need? - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:01:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Holy Relics > Nah, we don't need stats for it. We've all seen _Raiders of the Lost > Ark_, after all. What else do you need? I had a zany campaign concept for a quest to find the Ark of the Covenent, but I think it came from watching too many episodes of MYSTERIES OF THE BIBLE on A&E. Angel 1: "Hey look! It's a gold casket with angels on it! Think I should open it?" Angel 2: "It _must_ be for us. Why else the angels?" Ark: *open* *zap* *kerpow* *fry* - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:28:18 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Holy Relics >I had a zany campaign concept for a quest to find the Ark of the Covenent, >but I think it came from watching too many episodes of MYSTERIES OF THE >BIBLE on A&E. Hee. It occurs to me that the ark was described in the OT in such loving detail that it wouldn't be impossibly difficult for a demon prince (naming no names) to mock up a very authentic looking copy as a skit on organised religion. Especially if it had something wacky like title deeds to the land which is currently Israel in it... or another 10 commandments. Or.. something. jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:48:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Holy Relics > Hee. It occurs to me that the ark was described in the OT in such loving > detail that it wouldn't be impossibly difficult for a demon prince (naming > no names) to mock up a very authentic looking copy as a skit on organised > religion. Especially if it had something wacky like title deeds to the land > which is currently Israel in it... or another 10 commandments. Or.. > something. The Angel, dressed up as a High Priest, in a sacred place after completing the rituals of purification, commands that the lid be removed from the Ark. He reaches in, and pulls out the ancient tablet with much reverence. And then he reads, in a clear voice, "Thou Shalt Not Piddle On The Neighbor's Lawn Gnome". Looking confused, he reaches in again, and grabs another tablet. "Thou Shalt Not Dress In A Tacky Or Offensive Manner." The Angel just hangs his head. "How come," he says, "I have this feeling that this is not the real Ark of the Covenant?" - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:36:40 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Holy Artifacts David Edelstein wrote: > Have you thought about doing these as a Pyramid article? :) Not until now, but I sure will... Thanks. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:18:33 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Words [bordering toward long] >>>>Some in fact do seem a little too specialised. I mean why is Novalis' >word 'Flowers', instead of 'Peace' specifically. I mean you would think >that the latter is a more far reaching and potent Word, and that whoever >has that surely overrules 'Flowers'. Just curious!<<< > >Novalis's Word is not specialized -- _because_ she is an Archangel, her >Word encompasses its metaphorical as well as its literal aspects. So she is >the Archangel of plants, and also the Archangel of pretty blossoms >specifically, and also the Archangel of peace and love and tralalalala. >(Hmmm...Servitor of Flowers, "Angel of Tralalalala"....nah.) > >-David Even sticking to just the word "Flowers" in all it's glory isn't as limiting as it sounds. First of all, all plants "flower". (I may be wrong on this, but it seems logical based on what little exposure to the botanical field I have) The first thought that always pops into my head is my grandmother's garden. Then I think about _ALL_ plants. Poisonous berries and blossoms, got those. Carnivorous plants, them too. Sharp thorns, nettles, burrs; a veritable James Bond suitcase of pain ready to face the world. For some reason, I do not equate this side of her word with "peace" in the usual sense. Peace would limit her in this aspect. Second, going into a more mythological tangent, consider the Forbidden Fruit. Yup, the good old tree of Knowledge. That's hers, at least IMC. So, if you're the type to go for the metaphorical aspect of a Word/idea, then it is not such a far leap to go Fruit of Knowledge -> Acadamia. Goodness, this AA is all over the Ivy League and I never thought it before (Sorry for the pun.) Third, the other Mythos Tree that is in genre is the Tree of Life. Tack on to that the knowledge that a lot of medicines are plant derived. It would not take to much of a hop to visit the realm of medicine into the limiting Word of Flowers. (My wife thinks that I should mention the more recreational drug aspect, but I think that we all know that already) Finally, we can take in the metaphorical. One of the things that I tend to notice gets left out of Novalis (if it is in an extended write-up, my apologies) is the sexual nature of flowers. Two really good illustrations of this are either the Sex-Ed episode of "King of the Hill" or (for the more graphically minded) Pink Floyd's "The Wall" (the part with the two anatomically correct flowers). Her focus on this being two (or more) people getting together to share their love in a very physical act. All in all, I would tend to look at Flowers in a much broader sense than just my grandmother's roses. Flowers are everywhere. Armand the Ofanim who could write more, "But where's the fun in that?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:29:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Words [bordering toward long] A good examination of the potential of the Word "Flowers." It also shows that an AA can steer the extensions of its Word in any of a variety of directions. I mean, metaphors are things made by people, and flowers aren't THAT specially identified with peace and mercy, that I know of. Novalis COULD have steered her Word into sex and violence. Given that humans exploit the vegetable world just as badly as the animal world, she could have turned as misanthropic as Jordi. But she chose -- or was inspired to choose -- otherwise. Other flowery bits: The lotus as a symbol of Enlightenment makes a nice oriental counterpart to the Fruit of Knowledge, Newton's apple, and the Celtic hazelnuts of wisdom, all linking Novalis to learning. The roses of Tudor, Lancaster, & York, the lily of France, the chrysanthemum of Japan -- there are lots of political flowers available for her to hook into. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:49:51 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Flowers >I mean, metaphors are things >made by people, and flowers aren't THAT specially identified >with peace and mercy, that I know of. They have been since WWI, over here at least (and presumably in France also ). Then you have peacenik songs like 'Where have all the flowers gone' etc. I think they are pretty much associated with peace. There is also a strong death association, especially lilies. If there is an angel of death, I'd be tempted to have it working for Flowers. As an aside, Xmas trees were introduced by the Victorians. An attempt by Novalis to make up some ground in the Northern hemisphere during her traditional winter-dormancy period? :) jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:00:00 -0400 From: Afterburner Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Words [bordering toward long] >First of all, all plants "flower". (I may be wrong >on this, but it seems logical based on what little exposure to the >botanical field I have) Erm. No. Not all plants have flowers. Ferns, for example, don't. Neither do most trees (pine trees don't flower, nor do oaks). For Lots(tm) more info: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6243/diversity4.html AB ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:51:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Archangel Words [bordering toward long] Afterburner wrote: > Not all plants have flowers. Ferns, for example, don't. > Neither do most trees (pine trees don't flower, nor do oaks). Pines don't, true, but I think oaks and most non-evergreen trees do, even though the flowers are tiny, drab, and wind-pollinated. Technically, almost everything that is an angiosperm has flowers of some sort. So who gets slime molds? Novalis, Jordi, or the very minor Archangel of Protoctista? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:07:04 -0500 From: Vz Subject: IN> Return to the List After a long break, I'm Baaaack... Vz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:32:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Graveyard Greg Subject: Re: IN> Return to the List - ---Vz wrote: > > After a long break, I'm Baaaack... > > Vz > Great! Welcome back! :) Graveyard Greg _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #835 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.