From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jul 14 16:28:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18320 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:28:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA13551 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:26:33 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:26:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199807142126.QAA13551@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #856 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 14 1998 Volume 01 : Number 856 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light IN> Thanx IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Angels and Governments Re: IN> A little Knowledge... IN> Kyriotates of Dream (was Re: IN> Getting there) Re: IN> Re: IN- Word-Bound Servitors of David Re: IN> A little Knowledge... Re: IN> A little Knowledge... IN> Dominic's dissonance (was: angels and governments) IN> Superior's Force limits Re: IN> Dominic's dissonance (was: angels and governments) IN> Re: IN- Mormon cosmology (was: Moroni) Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Re: IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades IN> A non-traditional religion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 12:12 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades >Perhaps the Demon Princess of Nitpicking could explain how, with the >absolute and frequently-reiterated limit the current Line Editor has >declared on "No More Than 6 Forces Per Category For *ANYBODY*", a Djinn >(even a Djinn Prince) can manage to have more than 6 attunements at a >time? Or, if Word-Forces are making their way into canon, would a >Word-Bound Djinn be able to add Word-Forces to the count of Celestial >Forces in figuring the maximum number of attunements possible? Probably only if the attunements had something to do with the Word -- which is true in Azzie's case. > Or does >achieving Superior rank allow you to multitask long-term resonance effects >the same way it does your physical or spiritual presence? I would think this is also possible -- I've been playing with Superior canon ideas on my own, and this would fall out of the way I've been thinking about instantiations. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:32:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Roland Ward wrote: [...] > Islam - One thing that a lot of people today don't pick up on (esp those > who are U.S. based - maybe that's unfair sorry!) is HOW powerful the > 13-14th century Catholic chruch was - this was a superpower - they could > (and did) get rid of Kings & aristocrats, they owned vast amounts of > land etc. One day they told everyone in Europe to go and butcher a whole > load of (until then) pretty peaceful lot of arabs in the name of God. > Whereas the christians butchered everyone - Jews, Muslims,and christians > that happened to be the wrong side of the Hosporus, the Muslims were > fairly sensible and even treated their prisoners not-badly (for the > middle ages) It was only after about 40 years of a constant wave of > Europeans trying to slaughter them all that the moderate muslims were > overwhelmed by more fundementalists who are the force more prevailant > today. If you want to blame anyone for the way the forces of Islam work > today, blame Uriel and his bloody crusade! I think there are a few errors in this account, though it is quite true that the history of the Crusades is in large measure a history of the despicable behavior of self-identified "Christian" nations and individuals. For starters, the Crusades began well before the "13th-14th century" period quoted above as the era of Roman Catholic hegemony. After all, King Richard of England died on crusade in 1199; and I don't think that one was the First Crusade, though I might be wrong. Secondly, the current wave of Islamic fundamentalism does *not* derive from European misbehavior during the Crusades. The miscellaneous invasions of "Franks" were regarded by most of the Islamic world as a nuisance rather than a serious threat, with the exception of the brief interregnum during which Crusaders held Jerusalem. (Those nations that actually got *invaded* took a rather more activist view of the matter, of course, but the Crusaders' greatest incursions never really approached the heartland of Islamic strength.) The basic reason for Islamic fundamentalism today is the expansion of European power that began shortly after the Industrial Revolution in the mid-1700s. Islam had the luck, good or bad, to have apparent empirical support in its formative years. While the Prophet taught about rewards and punishments in the afterlife, he *also* taught that God's judgement is not purely a matter of pie in the sky after you die; submission to the Will of Allah is supposed to be rewarded by success and prosperity in *this* world, as well as unimaginable rewards in the next. For centuries it seemed plainly obvious to any good Muslim that the divine will really was on the side of their faith, as they swept all before them, conquered everything they really wanted to conquer, and gained converts in droves. The reverses began around the time of the Crusades, but for the typical Muslim deep in Dar-al-Islam (the collective term for all Islamic countries) this was, as indicated above, mostly a minor nuisance on the periphery. For a while the barbarian Franks actually had the temerity to seize Jerusalem, but this was duly corrected by Saladin and all was right with the world again. But then, to the astonishment of all right-thinking Muslims, the barbarian Christians out on the periphery of the civilized world came up with industrial technology, and its immediate consequence, mass-produced military arms with interchangeable parts. Armies that had been justly feared as the finest in the world were suddenly, almost casually, crushed by irresistible new weaponry. Dynasties that had ruled for centuries were overthrown by invaders whom they had regarded through all that time as inconsequential savages. For American readers, the shock was comparable to having the Navajos and Apaches come boiling off their southwestern reservations today, armed with hand-lasers, personal force fields, and orbital kinetic energy weapons, and subjugate all North America west of the Mississippi. In the two centuries or so (if we take Napoleon's conquest of Egypt as a type case) since the disaster, Islam has not yet come to terms with the rude awakening that Allah was *not* as firmly and uniformly on their side as they thought. Some have chosen to modernize; some have taken it as a lesson in the meaning of faith, and have produced some welcome support for religious pluralism. But many have chosen the time-honored refuge of blaming one's mundane troubles on sin. God *was* on our side; He *isn't* now; therefore we must have fallen short of His rules in some way, and if we adhere really closely to those rules, He will favor us again. And that is probably the single strongest motivator behind the resurgence of Islamic fundamentalism in the modern world. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:46:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light York H. Dobyns wrote: > For starters, the Crusades began well before the "13th-14th century" > period quoted above as the era of Roman Catholic hegemony. My desk dictionary says that the crusades started in the 11th century. While it is true that they were largely an excuse for plundering (and plundering the Byzantine Empire as much as anything else), it is also true that, in the 8th and 9th century, there was genuine worry in Europe that Islam would sweep up from Spain into France, and on and on. How much this might have inspired the crusades, I don't know. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:00:26 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light Well, now that we're sliding off-topic anyway... :) (I'll try to do a last-minute save at the end.) Regarding the first crusade... according to the conspiracy theoretically speaking quite interesting book "The Second Messiah" by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas the pope who started the crusade was a puppet, controlled by a group of noble families, who were the descendants of (if I remember correctly) the priests of the Temple. They knew about the hidden treasures under the ruins of the Temple in Jerusalem, and that was what they were really after - the treasures, and the scrolls that were also buried there. These are the same guys that later go on to found the Knights Templar, who, as we all know, later turn into the Freemasons. :) (They also go on to explain that the image on the shroud of Turin is actually Jacques de Molay, and how the Templars are the ones behind the Tarot cards. If you want all of it, read the book - it is quite interesting, if you like this sort of thing.) Anyway... uh... *trying for that last-minute save* What if... uh... what if this is -basically- true... except those priests of the Temple were actually descendants of the Grigori? Perhaps the treasures under the Temple included a couple of really nifty artifacts, that would still be in the hands of the Freemasons... provided they were saved when the French king destroyed the Templars. Perhaps the Great Secret behind Freemasonry is their allegiance to Heaven in the War? Yeah, I know I'm reaching here... but at least I got this back on-topic. Well, sort of. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:35:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light > Anyway... uh... *trying for that last-minute save* > What if... uh... what if this is -basically- true... except those priests > of the Temple were actually descendants of the Grigori? Perhaps the > treasures under the Temple included a couple of really nifty artifacts, > that would still be in the hands of the Freemasons... provided they were > saved when the French king destroyed the Templars. Perhaps the Great > Secret behind Freemasonry is their allegiance to Heaven in the War? Philip the Fair. And I've read that book! I own a copy of it, in fact! It's filled with the most goofy garbage ever assembled between two pieces of thick cardboard since... since the HIRAM KEY, their first book. I don't honestly think any of it is true, but it is entertaining reading. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:56:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam Gastonguay Subject: IN> Thanx This is just a general thank you for all the help you guys(and girls) have given me. I know I've asked a lot of questions, but all of you answered them quickly and greatly helped my game. My game, hopefully, will be run sometime next week(if I can get everyone out of work). I'll compile the adventure and how my group went through it and send it out to anyone who is interested. That's it for now, and again, thanks. Adam P. S. No Rev. It's not a snow carrot.. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:25:02 PDT From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Re: IN- Angels and Governments > >I don't think Gabriel is very likely at all to punish the wrong person. >After all, her Choir attumenents lether servitors detect guilt. Their >punishments are targeted based on what people know they've done >themselves, not what others think they've done. > >Also, remember that Dominic's dissonance restriction is to never punish >someone MORE harshly than they deserve. Think about that. Whoops. Add "in Dominic's opinion" to that second to last sentence. I'm sure I'm not the only who feels Eli and Gabriel have been unfairly maligned. There's a reason it's called the Inquistition, and not in positive ways. Bart Hammerly Calabim of Fire "Time is the fire in which we burn." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:31:11 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> A little Knowledge... gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > >On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > >> Hmmm... OK. So Moroni would be a Saint of Destiny on loan to Revelation? I >> like this. But my player may be ticked. (I don't think Saints can have >> Angelic Servitors...) > >I think that's correct in canon. However, if you *want* to have a >Word-bound Saint (another canon no-no), then there's no realistic reason >why he couldn't have Angelic Servitors. Just assume that Heaven is a >meritocracy, and you are good to go. > >If you don't want to deviate from canon like that, don't make Moroni a >Word-bound. Just make him a respected Saint of Destiny that Yves has >placed in charge of some operation or another. Huh? Where does it say angels can't work for saints? To pick a name not-completely-at-random, wouldn't one of Michael's angels be extremely likely to consider anything St. Joan of Arc tells them a Good Idea(tm)? - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:42:40 -0400 From: Andrew Frades Subject: IN> Kyriotates of Dream (was Re: IN> Getting there) Pee Kitty wrote: > > 1. Because Kyriotates can extend their comsciousness to a number of > > different dream scapes, do they need the Dream Walking attunement? > > They still cannot enter another's dreamscape without that attunement (or > Song of Dreams). It's just that WITH it, they can multiplex. Actually they can multiplex without it as well they just can't be in multiple dreamscapes. They can still be in a couple of different places in the Marches. For example they could be talking to Blandine in her tower while at the same time talking to Oberon in Arcadia. Sounds like they would make great diplomats in the Marches to me, among other things. Not to mention totally scary in Ethereal combat. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:43:34 +0200 (DFT) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Word-Bound Servitors of David On Sat, 11 Jul 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > An Impudite patron doesn't work, because demons have to prevent human > death whenever they can, whereas Mercurians can stand by, or even > instigate it. That's something about the Imps that I really have a problem with - they actually become -softer- on humans after Falling, with regards to killing them. They can't stand by while their buddies kill some hapless human, the way a Mercurian can. I think it's a bit strange, to say the least. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! Geography is just therapy for imperialists. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:48:13 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A little Knowledge... Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Huh? Where does it say angels can't work for saints? > > To pick a name not-completely-at-random, wouldn't one of Michael's > angels be extremely likely to consider anything St. Joan of Arc tells > them a Good Idea(tm)? And remember that the Virgin Mary is often style "Queen of Angels." If you have her in your campaign, she might very plausibly be, in effect, a Superior, even if she can't create servitors or grant attunements or distinctions. (Of course, such a game has probably given up the canonical Doubt and Uncertainty about which monotheistic religion is truest.) Mary would be the highest-ranking of an entire constellation of saints, i.e. the Holy Family (or, since that is usually the name for just Mary, Jesus, and Joseoph, the Holy Extended Family). This would include St. Joseph, St. Ann (Mary's mother), St. John the Baptist, St. Elizabeth (John's mother), and St. Zachary (John's father). The Apostles would form another natural grouping of powerful saints. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:07:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A little Knowledge... Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > > Huh? Where does it say angels can't work for saints? > > To pick a name not-completely-at-random, wouldn't one of Michael's > angels be extremely likely to consider anything St. Joan of Arc tells > them a Good Idea(tm)? St. Francis probably has a lot of prestige with angels of Novalis, too. St. Nicholas for Christopher. Also for Marc (St. Nick being the patron saint of pawn brokers). Left-over fans of Uriel would like St. George... And St. Dismas (the thief crucified next to Jesus) would be a logical accomplice\\\\\\\\\\ uh, buddy of angels of Janus. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:12:08 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Dominic's dissonance (was: angels and governments) >From: "Bartholomew Hammerly" >>Also, remember that Dominic's dissonance restriction is to never punish >>someone MORE harshly than they deserve. Think about that. > >Whoops. Add "in Dominic's opinion" to that second to last sentence. It doesn't say so in the book; besides, angelic dissonance is always based around a choice of some sort. Now, if he comes right out and TELLS the angel that the punishment he inflicted is insufficient, he should trust his archangel's judgment, and should probably ask what would be appropriate (he wouldn't want to overcompensate, after all). But then, his dissonance restriction doesn't say anything about following orders, so if the angel dares to think he's wrong, he can refuse (if he has the guts to say it to Dom's face). Dom might even respect his servitor's conviction. It's not dissonant to disagree with Dom; it's dissonant to go against his word with overzealous punishment. In my opinion as a GM (without having read the expanded writeup on Dom in Heaven and Hell, having just gotten the book this weekend): When Dominic tells an angel to step up his punishment, and the angel does it because he trusts his archangel's wisdom in the matter, that is NOT dissonant. If he does it because he simply fears reprisal and feels the punishment Dom has commanded is too much, that IS dissonant. In this way, his own servitors can act as a balance against his occasional overzealousness. And furthermore, remember he's a Seraph; if you lie when you say you understand and/or agree with his orders, he'll know... And even though he'll probably hear the Symphony tell him why, I expect he'll want to hear it from your mouth. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:20:55 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Superior's Force limits >From: "York H. Dobyns" >Perhaps the Demon Princess of Nitpicking could explain how, with the >absolute and frequently-reiterated limit the current Line Editor has >declared on "No More Than 6 Forces Per Category For *ANYBODY*", a Djinn >(even a Djinn Prince) can manage to have more than 6 attunements at a >time? Or, if Word-Forces are making their way into canon, would a >Word-Bound Djinn be able to add Word-Forces to the count of Celestial >Forces in figuring the maximum number of attunements possible? Or does >achieving Superior rank allow you to multitask long-term resonance effects >the same way it does your physical or spiritual presence? I think the 6 Forces per category limit is for PC's, or rather, anyone who's not a Superior. Archangel/Prince status grants many benefits, one of them being multitasking, another being unbound by a character sheet. An AVATAR of a superior manifesting celestially creates the same disturbance in the Symphony as 30 FORCES of normal celestial forms. Think about that. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:38:53 +0100 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Dominic's dissonance (was: angels and governments) At 13:12 14/07/98 PDT, you wrote: > If an angel disagrees with Dominic's ruling then _obviously_ its own judgement is called into question ;-) (So if it has information that he doesn't (very unlikely) then it had better cough up quickly, or face the music and prepare to be out-argued. I think the APG says that Dominic would rather see an angel destroyed than disobey him.) Still, it's far worse to keep silent about any disagreements than to speak out -- keeping silent about things which concern them _is_ dissonant. Compare this to Hell, where a demon might (?) see something which deeply disturbs even its dark soul but not dare to speak out for fear of reprisals or unjust accusations. I wonder if one of the reasons for being able to punish less harshly is in order to allow for the possibility that a demon might redeem or a mortal might be rehabilitated. (Which they can't really do if they are dead). jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:50:58 PDT From: "Daniel Maberry" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Mormon cosmology (was: Moroni) >From: gantr@NKU.EDU >Actually, this gives me some ideas for a Mormon-"flavored" patch for In >Nomine. The Choirs are functionally the same, except that they are all >"postmortal" (i.e. dead) humans who were chosen for their righteousness to >return to earth and continue serving God. The resonances reflect certain >spiritual gifts that they are given. They may still Fall, because they >still have moral agency and are permitted to make their own decisions. >Their vessels look like their original mortal vessels, although they may >be given different-looking vessels at the discrescion of their Archangels >(what about Jordi you ask? Simple: his Servitors are actually the >spirits of dead animals who have been chosen to continue serving on >earth). AAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS MAKES TOO MUCH SENSE! A few questions: Would relievers be "pre-mortal" souls, those that haven't been born yet? And what about the archangels? When did they live, and who were they? Could Saints be a sort of halfway point between dead human and "superhuman" angel? Perhaps becoming a full angel when they get 9 Forces, like relievers... Also, as for the role of Jesus in all this, I'd actually rename Yves. Your opinion? >Demons also function mechanically the same. Vessels (although >functionally identical to the rules) are the bodies of possessed mortals; >when the demon switches Vessels the current one returns to his or her >normal life (shedim do not get the short end here; they are the only ones >who do not need to expend effort and XP to gain new hosts). They are >going to lose the War, and are attempting to drag down as many others as >possible. Hmm... I dunno about this. Instead of vessels representing possession, how about this: When Soldiers of Hell die, the demons get their body AND their soul (perhaps the same thing with human sacrifice, too). Thus their vessels can go without nutrition and sleep not becuase they're divinely powered, but because they're already dead. They remain intact and can be animated to seem alive, but if anyone performed an autopsy after corporeally taking out a demon... Also, the Song of Possession would be alot more common, since there's probably less soldiers to provide bodies than there are demon who want one. Saminga would probably have more pull, being (in all likelyhood) the guy that invented this whole vessel process. Perhaps demons want animal sacrifices so they can get animal vessels. I suppose demonlings, imps and gremlins would be the same sort of spirit as relievers, that is "coulda-woulda-shoulda been" human souls, that haven't been promoted yet. >I could do more, but I will wait to see if there is interest first. INTEREST! INTEREST! INTEREST! Something to work on: Mormon salvation beliefs vs. Destiny and Fate. >Alternatly, here is an idea I had for my campaign: Mormonism was creaed >by Michael. Mormons hold the Archangel Michael in great esteem, we >perceive life on earth as a continuation of the great War in Heaven, and >we don't really see any need to comprimise with anyone about our beliefs. >In Nomine Michael would make a good candidate. Now THAT'S cool. Perhaps he did it they way he did, with the Mormon views on pre-colonial American history, was to appeal to the "wild west" americans (his target flock) while keeping it nominally christian (it's easier to convert people to a superficially similar religion than an entirely different one). So, in this idea, would Moroni be a Saint? Being a character from the Book of Mormon, myou'd have to decide how much of it was true. Perhaps it's a paraphrased version of Native American history? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:14:14 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Communism and Islam seem to get a bad light It's off-topic, so I'll try to be brief, but I thought this thread needed some clarification. (Last minute note: I wasn't able to keep it all that short. Sorry.) Earl Wajenberg wrote: > My desk dictionary says that the crusades started in the 11th century. About 1092, depending on whether you want to count from when Pope Innocent II called for the Crusades or from when they actually got underway. > While it is true that they were largely an excuse for plundering > (and plundering the Byzantine Empire as much as anything else), Perhaps more true than Earl realizes. The prevailing opinion that I was taught in college is that Innocent mostly used the fall of Jerusalem to the Muslims as an excuse. His biggest goal was to get a whole lot of hooligans out of Europe and off plundering somewhere else. > it is also true that, in the 8th and 9th century, there was > genuine worry in Europe that Islam would sweep up from Spain into > France, and on and on. How much this might have inspired the > crusades, I don't know. Not much, really. The Muslims in Spain were a completely seperate entity, except for religion. It's be like invading Britain because you were afraid the Russians were going to attack. Roland Ward wrote: >One day they told everyone in Europe to go and butcher a whole >load of (until then) pretty peaceful lot of arabs in the name of God. The church didn't tell the Crusaders to butcher everyone they saw; a number of its representatives at the conquest of Jerusalem tried to stop it. European knights came up with this on their own. And, for better or worse, pillaging a city that resisted was standard practice at the time (though the case of Jerusalem was certainly extreme) regardless of the religion of its inhabitants. Muslims also weren't notably peaceful prior to this. Medieval Islam has a number of things to recommend it, but peacefulness isn't one of its most notable traits. They didn't win the large section of the world they controlled in a poker game, and they also had numerous civil wars that were as brutal as anyone else's. >Whereas the christians butchered everyone - Jews, Muslims,and christians >that happened to be the wrong side of the Hosporus, the Muslims were >fairly sensible and even treated their prisoners not-badly (for the >middle ages) Often, though not always, true. Among other things, Islamic leaders derived a large amount of their revenue by taxing non-believers, so it was sensible policy to keep as many as possible around. >It was only after about 40 years of a constant wave of >Europeans trying to slaughter them all that the moderate muslims were >overwhelmed by more fundementalists who are the force more prevailant >today. As has been pointed out, there really is little in the origin of modren Islamist thinking that is traceable to the Crusades. They certainly didn't lead to the end of moderate Islam in forty years. Salah-al-Din rose to prominence one hundred years later, before and during the Third Crusade (that of Richard the Lionhearted) and he certainly wasn't the kind of extremist you're thiking of. In fact, he achieved a reputation in Europe of being a fine example of chivalrous knighthood. I'd also take exception to the view that the "fundamentalists" are an overwhelming force in today's Islamic world. First off, it's a bad term; they are not analogous to Christian fundamentalists. It is political goals rather than theological views that seperate them from the moderates, and Islamists is the better term to use. And, while they grab the headlines, they aren't really dominant in most Islamic countries either. There are also a lot of elements that went into the rise of the Islamists besides Western imperialism. Contrary to what we often like to think, we aren't responsible for everything. Good or bad. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:19:36 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Princes and Renegades At 11:57 AM -0400 7/14/98, York H. Dobyns wrote: >On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> At 3:23 PM -0700 7/13/98, Daniel Maberry wrote: >[...] >> But it's fun to think of it. Heh. (And might explain why he's not >> attuned to Every Single One Of His Servitors.) > >Perhaps the Demon Princess of Nitpicking could explain how, with the >absolute and frequently-reiterated limit the current Line Editor has >declared on "No More Than 6 Forces Per Category For *ANYBODY*", a Djinn >(even a Djinn Prince) can manage to have more than 6 attunements at a >time? For *Anybody* means *any character*. Superiors have always been undefined. They may not even *have* what any lesser celestial would recognize as Forces anymore. }:p >Or, if Word-Forces are making their way into canon, would a >Word-Bound Djinn be able to add Word-Forces to the count of Celestial >Forces in figuring the maximum number of attunements possible? Or does >achieving Superior rank allow you to multitask long-term resonance effects >the same way it does your physical or spiritual presence? Either of those are also plausible explanations. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:12:56 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> A non-traditional religion Much of the stuff in here has been tweaked to fit an In Nomine universe. If you don't like it, tweak it in your own games. But let's avoid a flamewar on the list -- it *is* some people's *religion*, after all. (And yes, the religion of some people on this very list!) Flames will be ruthlessly chastized by the list admin (me). For disclaimers, get to the bottom of this post.] - ------------- In Nomine Scientology ===================== "AXIOM 1: LIFE IS BASICALLY A STATIC. Definition: a Life Static has no mass, no motion, no wavelength, no location in space or in time. It has the ability to postulate and to perceive." -- _Axioms And Logics, by L. Ron Hubbard (Copyright 1958, 1967, 1973) Angels might call this God... In [1950], a book called _Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health_ was written by a science-fiction author called L. Ron Hubbard. To this day, as with many other messiahs (false, true, or undecided), no celestial knows whether "LRH" was human, ethereal, celestial, child of the Grigori, or what. This Dianetics thing consisted of people being asked to remember bad tims in their lives -- both when bad things happened to them, and when they did bad things to others. If this was done for enough bad times, the book stated, the memories would become completely under conscious control and would lose all ability to subconsciously affect the person who remembered them. LRH claimed that the proceedures had helped him with physical ailments (partial blindness from a wound) as well as psychological ones. This "auditing" seemed to work for many people, and some of them banded together and started auditing each other a lot. So far, so good. Few celestials noticed the group at this time. Auditing required asking about *all* incidents that might have a connection to the trauma or symptom that the auditee wanted to deal with. In particular, the phrasing "Is there an earlier, similar incident?" was often used by the auditor (who was supposed to maintain a detachment and calmness to match an Elohite, no matter what the auditee comes up with). This phrasing led auditees into childhood, babyhood, into the womb, *into the womb before conception*, and then... into memories of previous lives. This was somewhat distressing to most of the people doing it, since their preconceptions tended to be more Western (one life, and then either a good afterlife or a bad one or nothing at all) than Eastern or ancient Greek (reincarnation). Still, at this point, things were much too small to be noted by the communities of Heaven and Hell. After time in [Maryland?], California, and England, though, the religion (sometimes called a cult by outsiders) of Scientology was created. And now celestials started getting interested. Dominic and Laurence were the most horrified, of course -- this new creed seemed to take elements from many of the religions that the ethereal gods favored, without any clear evidence of belief in God and/or the Symphony (which may or may not be the same thing, depending on which celestial you ask). Laurence immediately began to mobilize forces to quash it while Dominic stood back, much as he had done when Uriel started getting... extreme. As the new religion began to develop mysteries (the "Upper Levels"), Litheroy turned away from it; he had previously been interested in techniques to reveal subconscious memories in the human mind. As usual, Yves was Yves, and he stood back, making enigmatic comments about destiny, fate, and what happened to those who managed neither. (Some suspect that Dianetics might have been helped along in the beginning, either by Yves, or a Servitor of Destiny -- after all, he had been trying to use philosophy to help humans, and Dianetics *wasn't* a religion at first.) On the demonic side, Malphas instantly recognized the potential of a new religion to factionalize both humans and angels and urged his demons to support the religion's growing distrust of conventional authority figures - -- both within, and externally, via actual persecution. Cheerfully, he also drove a wedge between the religion and the early psychologist and psychiatrist communities of the time, where the techniques of Dianetics (and later, Scientology), might have had the most beneficial effect. In his part, Asmodeus was amused that Scientology and Dianetics counseling techniques required great trust, for those same techniques could also be used to play head-games of the nastier sorts; he encouraged more development of ways to meddle with the human mind. He was mildly annoyed when some of the better ways (at least for those who believed in the religion's assumptions) were blocked off from those who did not have the proper training. Between Malphas and Asmodeus, it should be no surprise that numerous people split off, promoting variations in the techniques, while the main Church cracked down on *any* alterations of the techniques within their ranks; the rules had to be followed... Alaemon, Prince of Secrets, welcomed the birth of a mystery religion. (The Freemasons had also amused him for quite some time.) He hadn't had anything to do with it, but he was happy to take the Word-boost that the humans unwittingly offered him, and claim any credit he could. Mammon may have also been involved, once the prices for the spiritual therapy of auditing (a major component of the religion) started being more than the few dollars that regular churches got when they passed around the collection plate. Fleurity, on the other hand, absolutely despises the group -- the hardest stuff that they'll willingly touch is nicotine and asprin, and they're pretty darned fanatic about keeping even psychiatric drugs away from everyone, especially kids. This attitude has won them some grudging respect from Christopher, much as David had been forced to admit that the religion has been persisting in spite of adversity... The ethereals hovered about, looking for scraps of Essence for themselves or a new ethereal godling to mug. They did not find any, and wound up sitting this round out. Despite celestial meddling (including everything from persecution to aid to possession of members), the religion survived -- though certain attitudes became institutionalized within it, and about it. Few celestials were able to infiltrate it long-term, though -- generally, a Role/6 and a good imagination *and* memory were required, to fool the auditing techniques. Shedim had some success, but their requirements for corruption often got their hosts driven out quickly (though sometimes not; Shedim can do a great deal of local damage in cleverly chosen positions of power). Shedim of the Game fared better, as did Kyriotates of Destiny. Seraphim were simply unable to manage the fibs required; Balseraphs, surprisingly, were similarly discommoded! The auditing techniques usually required "running through" incidents repeatedly, making sure that every single detail was remembered -- and the auditor took notes! This often trapped inattentive Balseraphs by making them invent contradictory details (causing them dissonance), or forcing them to invoke their resonance repeatedly and risk a failure. Failures often got caught, too, since the "E-meter" was at least as good a mechanical "truth-telling machine" as more conventional lie-detectors. In the current day, LRH is thought to be dead by most (there are some non-members who believe he may have faked his death and is living quietly off the income from the organization), the United States IRS has finally agreed that a belief-system which includes humans as spiritual beings can be a religion even if it doesn't express a belief in a Divine Entity, and there are countless alleged scandals (some may be accurate, some may not be). There are also at least thousands of humans who sincerely believe that the techniques have helped both themselves and others to become more ethical, more aware, more competant and happier in life. Like any other set of beliefs in the _In Nomine_ universe, IN Scientology probably contains elements of truth and falsehood, good and bad, selfishness and selflessness. It's up to the GM to decide how much of what, and to the PCs to decide what they're going to do about the parts that they don't like. Variations: Truth ===== If a human fails to achieve either fate or destiny, that human may be reborn, to try again. Presume that this "achieved neither" state happens a *lot* of the time, and the religion might be a *lot* closer to the truth (in some ways) than most celestials would like to admit! (Celestials may not know how often reincarnation happens, too, which means they'll have to make their guesses like everyone else.) The techniques for uncovering hidden memories actually work, and may provide clues about what each person's fate and destiny might yet be! The religion becomes a source of *unaffiliated* six-Force humans (or higher, up to beings who are very similar to Saints, at the GM's whim), and a potential threat to celestials who have been around a few generations without changing vessels -- a reincarnated human may recognize them! Using this premise, a trained auditor with an E-meter can spot a celestial as "something odd" almost without fail, eventually. Demons are generally shunned, though some might become redeemable... Also, it becomes no surprise that demons would try to mess up the efficacy of the techniques -- why would they want humans to become more potent without being under demonic influence?? Even angels might consider meddling to be A Good Thing. Plot potentials for this religion being as true as any other... * A Cherub's attuned is killed... But a few months afterwards, the Cherub senses the attunement is still there! (Possibly by having the "attuned is in immediate danger!" alarm bells going off!) And when the Cherub gets there, it finds that its attuned charge is a newborn baby... Perhaps the baby's destiny is still in effect, and agents of Fate are still after the kid. * Word has come to the local celestials that a Scientologist is a former Soldier for the other side -- who was privy to a lot of plans when he was killed, last life. The object? One side will want to obtain the plans (keep in mind that the records of auditing sessions are kept in confidence in ethical Churches); the other side will want to re-recruit the human -- or kill him *again*. * A Remnant has joined the religion and is beginning to recover memories of her previous existance as a celestial. The local Church may want to use the Remnant's Songs and attunements as proof that the religion *does* enhance personal abilities in fashions that are literally supernatural. Superiors on both sides are concerned that this will blow the War into the open. To add more complications, perhaps the Remnant is beginning to regenerate Celestial Forces... Due to the religious techniques, or something else? Human misconceptions ==================== In this version, the ability of the human mind to generate dream-images is the main source of the "past-life memories" -- when pressed for a memory, the brain runs through everything it has, and then starts making things up. Experiences in Beleth's side of the Marches (or with celestials and/or ethereals brawling through dreamscapes) can also supply strange memories that might have some effect on behavior. Still, there are chances that celestials (and/or ethereals) might start getting recognized -- but this time, it's primarily Marches-experiences that are supplying the recognition. But E-meters aren't much more effective than the average lie-detector; if a celestial can lie calmly (use Lying or Emote), he can usually pass easily. The GM might require a roll against Intelligence or Precision to remember the details of their "memories" (the auditor *does* take notes...). Plot Seeds * Suspecting an Impudite of holding a high-ranking position in a local Org or Mission (two classes of church; Missions are smaller), concerned celestials must infiltrate the group. Demons will want to erode (or erode further) the strong sense of ethics that Scientologists follow (or, at worst, pay lip service to), while angels will want to encourage the sense of ethics while steering the humans around them to something closer to the Truth. * A newly converted (and therefore prone to fanaticism/hyper-enthusiasm) member latches onto a celestial PC in the belief that the pair of them were extremely close in a past life -- lovers, siblings, or parent-child relationship, pick whatever will push the celestial character's buttons the hardest. The human will be urging the celestial to join up, and probably hanging around being a nuisance. Hostile celestials may see a hostage (most effective against angels) or an unwitting spy. The human may be a security leak or a potential servant/Soldier. * Demons of Kronos have been carefully herding someone to a very nice, spectacular fate -- when he up and joins this fringe cult thing which is *interfering*, telling the human to ditch all his demonic "friends" because they're (get this) *bad* for him. What's a demon to do? And if angels find out about this, what do *they* do? Especially since Dominic's triads will harass any angel who seems to be favoring a religion that doesn't support the existance of the one true God... * Yves has asked Laurence (and Dominic) to lay off the new religion a little, pointing out that angelic persecution just makes the group more vulnerable to demons. The Archangel of Destiny has suggested that with a little manipulation, the religion could be shifted to something more useful. It might take a few generations, but celestials live forever... Guess who's been volunteered to start the change. Demonic PCs are ordered to thwart the efforts of these Destiny angels. [This might work for a "Truth" variant as well, but infiltration and change will be even harder...] Solely Demonic Manipulation =========================== Using this premise, the entire thing is a kooky crock that demons have gotten into, and they're cheerfully manipulating thousands of well-meaning humans (as well as the ones who are only in it for the wealth they can skim and power they can abuse). E-meters are nothing more than over-priced bits of electronics which operate randomly; any celestial (especially any demon) who has half a clue can fox them without a roll; still, Intelligence or Precision rolls may be required to keep a story straight -- if you've got an enthusiastic newbie who's actually paying attention. Agents of Asmodeus and Mammon are thick as flies within the organization, especially at the higher levels of administration. Most are servants or Hellsworn, but demons are not uncommon. The rank and file of humans are overworked, pressured to produce more money to be skimmed off by the Hell-servants, who live like mortal princes. Plot seeds: * A human NPC important to the PCs has joined the cult and is rapidly being sucked in, emotionally and psychologically manipulated into loyalty. But to deprogram this person will require kidnapping and holding him (or her) incommunicado -- which would be difficult enough if they only had to contend with other humans trying to find their lost lamb. But when there's a Djinn of the Game attuned to the hapless mortal? * An angelic-sponsored organization has been having some problems recently, and a spy is suspected. The cultist is the obvious choice, but how can the PCs get rid of the spy without getting into trouble for religious discrimination? (Well, there's always the terminal choice...) * An agent of Mammon/Asmodeus/[whoever] has been being a nuisance to the local demonic PCs, and they'd seriously like to remove him. Unfortunately, he's firmly ensconced in an administrative position in the local Org or Mission, and is happily skimming off the profits (giving him more money, resources, and unwitting servants than the hapless PCs). They can destroy his vessel and Role, but that will let some eager-beaver humans get into positions of power -- and these mortals are way too enthusiastic about silly things like ethics, aiding fellow humans, and generally being selfless. What's a demon to do when removing a nuisance will aid the causes of Heaven? Mix of the above ================ Add human cussedness, Truth, and demonic (or angelic!) manipulation to taste, stir, and shake well. For instance, the basic teachings may be useful and True (especially with the fate/destiny/reincarnation interactions), lacking only a belief in the Symphony (in an easily recognizable form, such as God), while the upper ranks of the administration are thick with Hellsworn or Shedim of the Game (who are good at covering for other demons). Or the teachings are near-worthless, but the overall belief-system is seen as a way to promote selfless behaviors -- especially by those of Destiny, who are a bunch of optomists anyway. In this set-up, you can never tell if a Scientologist is a nutty cultist of some degree of harmlessness, a sincere and ethical believer, or a Hellsworn with a selfish agenda of his own. You may be able to find all of these and more within the same Church building! More often, though, you'll probably get the differences between local groups -- some just fringies, some ethical, and some filled with corruption. Persecuting one Mission might be a valid job for angels (while demons can expect help from that place), while the one in the next town over is responsible for toppling a demon from his powerbase. PCs will need to keep on their toes, and refrain from making too many assumptions...The Malakite resonance is likely to be of great assistance in such matters. Use any or all of the above plot seeds... [[Disclaimer: none of this stuff is intended to replace or alter the actual techniques and practices, or to make any definitive statements about the truth or falsity of the *actual* beliefs in the real world (after all, in the _In Nomine_ universe, *all* extant religions have some severe errors in them!); all procedures and beliefs have been severely simplified for use in a role-playing game (much as the game itself simplifies combat, etc.); the history itself has been likewise simplified, and mutated according to the author's whim to allow for the existance of entities calling themselves Archangels and Demon Princes (the premise of the _In Nomine_ universe), and any belief in the *actual* existance of such entities is not to be assumed. Anyone curious about the *real* stuff should pick up a Dianetics book, or find an Org or Mission. http://www.scientology.org is another source of information. The quote at the beginning is intended as a Fair Use quote, and no threat to copyright or trademark is intended. If there's any Upper Levels stuff in here, I'll be the first one to be boggled about it. If there are any typos, or basic misintrepretations not connected with the simplification required to make things work in a roleplaying game, I apologize humbly and will seek to correct the errors on the copy that may (eventually) be placed on the Unofficial _In Nomine_ Collection pages (http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles). Anyone who thinks that this game-world version(s) is intended in a hostile manner is in error. Anyone who thinks I'm trying to proselytize them is also in error.]] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #856 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.