From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Aug 30 11:48:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03496 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:48:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA08477 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:35:31 -0500 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:35:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199808301635.LAA08477@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #933 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, August 30 1998 Volume 01 : Number 933 In this digest: Re: IN> Los Angeles Wordbounds IN> Demonic Resonance Re: IN> Los Angeles Wordbounds IN> Broken promises etc. Re: IN> Broken promises etc. Re: IN> Broken promises etc. Re: IN> Broken promises etc. Re: IN> Broken promises etc. IN> FotM Nitpicks, Kitty, Spoiler IN> The Tsayadim IN> Wordhounds Re: IN> Broken promises etc. IN> Massada (was LA Wordhounds) Re: IN> Broken promises etc. Re: IN> Massada (was LA Wordhounds) Re: IN> Wordhounds ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:55:51 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Los Angeles Wordbounds Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > The Wordbound Seneschals may be sufficient, along with Absinthia > and Jurgen. (With the Tether-rules being proposed, Seneschals are > nasty, nasty people to go up against.) I know this is opening up an old debate, but you might want to be careful as you head in this direction. Fall of the Malakim becomes even more implausible if Seneschals are so powerful. Scamper and Scurvy took out two of them (Kevin and Donna) in one fight at Kevin's party. Okay, John Downing took out one of them, but the two certainly had planned on being able to kill both Seneschals that evening, Pico Plaza being within even the narrowly defined definition of LA that produced the blowing of Gabriel's horn. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:01:09 -0400 From: ixDragons Subject: IN> Demonic Resonance - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDD34E.BF61A800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am a bit confused about the resistance of Demonic Resonance. In some places a contest is referred to as a Will roll and a Will roll as a contest. For example in the Habbalah Game Mechanics: "If his Will roll succeeds with a higher check digit than that of the demon, the resonance will backfire." Isn't that the only way to succeed in a contest? Is it a contest? This is what I'm getting so far. Defend meaning a Will roll and Resist meaning a contest. Balseraphs: Defend Djinn: None (Resist Celestial) Calabim: Resist Habbalah: Resist? Lilim: Defend? Shedim: Resist Impudites: Resist? In my Opinion, they should all be Defend; that way a demon gets more successful as his power grows. It really bothers me that even a child can deflect Lucifer's Resonance. Although I understand how powerful a Belseraph's resonance would be otherwise, it still bothers me. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDD34E.BF61A800 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgERAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAyAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAATwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxp c3RzLmlvLmNvbQBTTVRQAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxpc3RzLmlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01U UAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABkAAABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4P BgAAAB4AATABAAAAGwAAACdpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20nAAACAQswAQAAAB4AAABT TVRQOklOX05PTUlORS1MQExJU1RTLklPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAAeAPZfAQAAABkA AABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAgH3XwEAAABPAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A 3QEPVAIAAAAAaW5fbm9taW5lLWxAbGlzdHMuaW8uY29tAFNNVFAAaW5fbm9taW5lLWxAbGlzdHMu aW8uY29tAAADAP1fAQAAAAMA/18AAAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAAtljAQSAAQASAAAARGVtb25p YyBSZXNvbmFuY2UAfQYBBYADAA4AAADOBwgAHQANAAEACQAGABcBASCAAwAOAAAAzgcIAB0ADQAA ACUABgAyAQEJgAEAIQAAAEJFQjQ0NzZEMzgzRkQyMTFBODVFNDQ0NTUzNTQwMDAwAPMGAQOQBgDE CQAAIQAAAAsAAgABAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwAuAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAA OQCgDkOebtO9AR4AcAABAAAAEgAAAERlbW9uaWMgUmVzb25hbmNlAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAb3T bp2KbUe0wD84EdKoXkRFU1QAAAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABkAAABpeGRy YWdvbnNAbWluZHNwcmluZy5jb20AAAAAAwAGEIXAeM0DAAcQuwIAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAElBTUFC SVRDT05GVVNFREFCT1VUVEhFUkVTSVNUQU5DRU9GREVNT05JQ1JFU09OQU5DRUlOU09NRVBMQUNF U0FDT05URVNUSVNSRUZFUlJFRFRPQVNBV0lMTFJPTExBTkRBV0kAAAAAAgEJEAEAAACrBgAApwYA AHgOAABMWkZ1fwUw8gMACgByY3BnMTI1cjIMYGMxAzABBwtgbpEOEDAzMw8WZmUPkk8B9wKkA2MC AGNoCsBzhGV0AtFwcnEyAACSKgqhbm8SUCAwAdCFAdA2D6AwNTA0FCHzAdAUEDR9B20CgwBQA9T7 Ef8TC2IT4RRQE7IY9BTQrwcTAoACkQjmOwlvMBrf+mUOMDUcCh0hHN8d6Rv0/x4SHH8gTyANH48d vxwPEGD8Mjgl2ibxJq8nuRv0J+K/Jk8qHyndKV8njytUOQ5QHy6kMAEoIzAAAoJzdHnqbAeQaAng dAAAE1AD8FBkY3RsCrFcMlhhmGRqdTFwBRBnaAVCOxYyDAFjCcAyYAMwc258ZXgXMAewBbAAwAJz c7EAUHNiMhRQMWBhE/D0XGsJ4HALkDI/MqMIYOsykAuAZTGgdjlgAUAzm78MMDRkKAA3QASgC4Bn J/HpNOZiYRcQZAIgNaA1Rucx0DOQO5EgMTEzDlA2n/83rzi/AFE5/ACgNG48fz2G/zEkD8A+jz+f QK8OUDnvQw/bRB89szMCghMQYzZgS6GTM5A9sHRpOZAgRAEQqGF1bAVAUArAYQnA4GFwaCBGAiE2 JCVA6GZpLQ+QOAFAOTBQM+tHDzKjYgsgcglQUlIWoNlSUnc0JUEXAHAB0E1yfzO/Sp9Lpk/QTpAF EAIwLUNPMANhOiBUb1ewUyh1YmoFkHRXsERh6HRlOjYkNk//UQ9SH/9TL1Q5McA9ow4hS6E6tg5Q m1VvVn5SOYEXASBIPZH7BJA2JDdZb1p/W49cnTkPL12/D5BpcAjQYgqwdDj/SfoPVEYQX79gxmoA YdALULx5L09AXLALEWJFczYk/ygAYz9kT2VfXK9UT2tfbG/vbXVX0ld0WKk5b78zPwMwHWmzOXOf dK96oERvY/51B4ACMAXQTwAaAXjSeDD3eHBxUQGAblgwAGAJ8E2g730AAgE14F5SZQDwfQAxgJJw HoBcdgiQd2sLgP5ka0CAogTwB0AQYQFADgDvcSI9goIFAhBvBUIXIRLyDVjAbQtRWMAgQzpc6lxX AG9O4W1PMAMQB5BNhLBNDeADYHNvAYAgrk8BIA3gf/BchmZFAMD1AxAuS3B0fdAXEHhwNSHtZ3J4 AUB/AW4x0BrwiAQ9TjRjAyAS8wCABZBsdv9BoUbQDnA14IqSAZAAIIsi/4DxfUEBwYqRFuAPcAAA RtDzDNABkCAuGhKKiA5Qi0L/TnB4wIu/jM+N3w/ARtAFgbePf5CPkZ9sa0BG0GyPP/uT/5UFKY4M JUCS35e/lPT4YiAoApGY34rTWVCWj/+bT5xfnW+LAGMQnrKLj6Af/6EvjgwoAJ6/pD+lT6ZfiwD/ eACjP6jPqd+q5Ar5AzB4L595P3rNCME08jWgSSCFIZWVUGJNwCAFoG5mshBPCYC0MAbgZ1AgdDHQ INca8ACQrLFuhqAghiBOEVsEYAMAY2HBhhButmIu3iC0EAOghhAHgCALUYagvwQgCoWVULTRWMAx cCAEANu18RBQchrxtbBvtDAEIP2VUFcDEAMgA2C7gQBwtUHfu1q7Irmlt/FtYSA1cIUg3wtQE4Cw QQqFtcJIAaBLMNsLYE8gR4UgE4BNBZCUoUUN4HNXsCAiSbbAaPu6Ibtocw5whqAJgAQgA/B/tcC0 YcFwsmAEkLTAMdBj9GsgPbBntKG+5wORxPHfBUC2sbXCAQC3ASy1treUP8LRu4FLMMPwbtAa8C4i 97gAtBA1UCe1osVhtcICIPttMMLQYcmQuuEKhcJVvqK9uYc/yFK6EAVAy0pUwXKluiF3xVJJJ4Uw Zxcg103QPdGGECBOQHK38U4h/38BuQYHgMCxPdG7TrdhtjHv0Bm9VwqFCoVCB0AXEE7y08Dyz0xE aguAbsEBNcB3NWCqUNGlQ2ehMXAHMSn9uQZDv9G0kFeh0ZYKhb+W99i3y9AKhUwDENiTz0Ta175T MdA9sNivtBCEIHVNsV8HkNpPuQbgUrghbcmQT3pwC4BpxjXJkDHACGBs77VBx3JOA38BO8U0ybKV UP/GA84iBCAEYBrwwkQEELUA7wMguRYEIMFycLCQw5EJwP2wkHO38gVAGvDiUcmQBuD/tcEXANAR xTRnwcsjwXDiIf+BkAOgDyJYUdtQDnAGkASQ9ie497dqQU5w4fGyYLQR/nWtURcAtlE1IOHwB+Dm g/vlYpVQQmeg1FTrAca54gPvCoXikegTA/FlxlC0oddhn8dy6BfTJwKQ8xZ9APQxAfRwAAMAEBAA AAAAAwAREAEAAAADAIAQ/////0AABzDgKKGLbtO9AUAACDDgKKGLbtO9AQsAAIAIIAYAAAAAAMAA AAAAAABGAAAAAAOFAAAAAAAAAwACgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEIUAAAAAAAADAAWACCAG AAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABShQAAtw0AAB4AJYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFSFAAABAAAA BAAAADguMAADACaACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsAL4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAA AABGAAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAwgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADADKACCAGAAAA AADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAB4AQYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAA AAAAAAAeAEKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgBDgAggBgAAAAAA wAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4APQABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAADAA00/TcAAJoa - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDD34E.BF61A800-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 19:56:18 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Los Angeles Wordbounds At 00:15 29/08/98 , you wrote: >Reminds me of an angel I created: Zuriel, Angel of Masada. At first he >was a typical Seneschal for a Stone Tether, but he discovered that >Masada had a deep symbolic meaning to Israel, in much the same way that >the Alaamo has a deep symbolic meaning to Texas. His Word expanded from >there... Pedantic, revisionist note: Massada wasn't important to anyone since 73 AD until the 1920s, when Zionists propaganaists and leaders were looking for a symbol of Jewish heroism. They practically made Massada that symbol - - Massada appears only in Josephus' history, and the Talmud has been silent about it. Sure, the Israeli education system and the IDF make a lot of it - - I think it's mandatory for every pupil to visit the place, and tank crews trainees take their vows there - but that's something very, very recent. Me, OTOH, if I had to make it a tether, I'd make it Saminga's. Almost a thousand people committed suicide there, you know. Either that, or Michael's ("death before dishonor"). Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 20:51:33 +0100 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Broken promises etc. Anyone got any suggestions for which Prince the Words of 'Promises Never Intended to be Kept', and 'Broken Promises' fall under? I can't make my mind up :) - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 18:38:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Broken promises etc. On Sat, 29 Aug 1998, Julian Breen wrote: > Anyone got any suggestions for which Prince the Words of 'Promises Never > Intended to be Kept', and 'Broken Promises' fall under? > I can't make my mind up :) I'd say Malphas. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 17:39:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Broken promises etc. On Sat, 29 Aug 1998, Julian Breen wrote: > Anyone got any suggestions for which Prince the Words of 'Promises Never > Intended to be Kept', and 'Broken Promises' fall under? > I can't make my mind up :) I'd put them under Malphas. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 16:11:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> Broken promises etc. At 08:51 PM 8/29/98 +0100, you wrote: >Anyone got any suggestions for which Prince the Words of 'Promises Never >Intended to be Kept', and 'Broken Promises' fall under? >I can't make my mind up :) Secrets, Corruption or Factions perhaps? > >-- >Julian > > I know violence doesn't solve all problems... But it sure feels good! Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:16:50 EDT From: CaelinR@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Broken promises etc. In a message dated 8/29/98 3:57:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk writes: << Anyone got any suggestions for which Prince the Words of 'Promises Never Intended to be Kept', and 'Broken Promises' fall under? I can't make my mind up :) >> Who're you thinking of here and why? You seem divided, but the only obvious choice I can see is Factions. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:23:44 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> FotM Nitpicks, Kitty, Spoiler >>>But there was that bit about Lucifer promising a principality to anyone who made a Malakite fall.<<< That was in my (non-canonical) Dark Malakim write-up. Whether Lucifer has in fact made any such offer in the canonical IN universe is undetermined. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:23:49 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Tsayadim >>>Possibly, as a first pass, this would mean that Joe can't incur any Dissonance from Bigguy's Dissonance condition without losing the connection. Does that makes sense?<<< The problem with that being that it makes the special quality of angels of Purity -- the inability to Fall -- irrelevant. If they automatically stop being angels of Purity upon acquiring dissonance, the fact that they can't Fall is moot. When Uriel was around, this "bennie" was balanced by the fact that compared to Uriel, Dominic spoiled and coddled his Servitors. Uriel would put a Servitor on probation doing s***-work for one note of dissonance, and at 2 notes (or a single level of Discord)....bye bye. No questions asked, no trial, no mitigating circumstances -- may your Forces find better use in their next configuration. The Tsayadim try to carry on that tradition. They hunt dissonant comrades as fanatically as they hunt demons. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:23:40 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Wordhounds >>>Guild, no. The WordHounds aren't -that- big, maybe a dozen or so regulars at the most.<<< Big enough to annoy everyone who's targeted by them, and certainly big enough to get their sponsor in trouble. If they're organized, they're visible enough to have Princes squashing them. >>>I think you overestimate the value of servitors to Demon Princes. A couple of Princes might indeed get righteously cheesed (Asmodeus), but others probably wouldn't care (Haagenti, Saminga) and a few might, under the right circumstances, be pleased (Kobal, Malphas).<<< Absolutely wrong. Sure, Princes won't shed any tears over a spud Servitor being killed....but if you target a Prince's Servitors, you're targeting HIM. If you get the idea you can kill a Prince's minions with impunity, you are directly attacking his resources, his property. No Prince is going to put up with that, even if he couldn't care less about the demon who was whacked, for the same reason that slave-owners wouldn't take kindly to someone wandering by and killing one of his slaves. Furthermore, it's not just the Prince's run-of-the-mill Servitors who are being targeted by the Wordhounds. It's his _Word-bound_ Servitors. Do you actually believe Princes won't _care_ if someone assassinates their Word-bound Servitors? That's striking even closer to the Prince, it's a direct assault on the power and influence of HIS Word! >>>That's presuming to know Lucifer's plans, too.<<< Well, I do presume to know something about the way Lucifer's mind works in IN. ;) >>>Consider: you know Lilith never breaks a Deal...<<< Oh really? Are you sure about that? And do all the Princes really trust Lilith that much? No, I don't think so. Furthermore, they have to not only trust Lilith, they have to trust every other demon who's involved in the scheme. They have to trust that not only will all those individuals _intend_ to stay quiet, but that no other means will ever pry the secrets of what they did from them. And they have to trust that they've covered ALL their bases in whatever deal they made with Lilith. Did she promise never to reveal your part in the affair? Did she promise none of her Servitors would ever reveal their parts in the affair? Did she promise that no one else has the ability to call in a Geas on one of the Wordhounds and make them spill the beans? The more people you involve in a conspiracy, the less secure it becomes. Hiring outsiders to do intimate dirty work like this just does not make a lot of sense. Granted, a lot of Princes don't trust their own Servitors that much either, but at least they have a lot more control over them than they do over a bunch of Free Lilim. >>>Really.<<< I was being rhetorical. Actually, the answer is "No, not really, except perhaps in your campaign." Doing something because Lilith told you to isn't going to save you from the ire of a wrathful Prince, nor will it absolve you of responsibility for breaking the rules. Just ask Asmodeus. >>>(1) Lilith is not indispensible, but she is *incredibly* useful, and not just for Lilim.<<< Yes, but not so indispensible she can go around attacking other Princes directly. (And sponsoring assassins to kill someone else's Word-bounds IS attacking them!) >>>(2) All the Princes are indebted, to varying degrees, to Lilith.<<< Probably. But that debt doesn't mean she can get away with antagonizing them. Baal, for example -- he may owe her a few favors, but do you think he owes her enough to prevent him from obliterating her if he became convinced she was a threat to the diabolical cause? >>>(3) If you don't think Lilith doesn't play hardball, tell me how she survives in an environment where a Prince can, and has, eliminated a resource -entirely- just to make sure a hostile Prince couldn't use it.<<< There's hardball, and there's hardball. Lilith has lots of tricks up her sleeve, and she can be as ruthless as needed to survive. But going toe-to-toe with other Princes, pitting her power directly against theirs, putting herself in direct confrontation, is NOT her style. It's not a winning proposition for her. >>>(4) I severely doubt the Wordhounds are the only team of assassins sponsored by a Demon Prince. They're just the only ones around for hire.<<< Exactly. Other Princes probably _do_ have their own special forces to take out rivals they don't like. But they do it secretly, because they know if they're found out, they'll be revealed to have essentially declared war on the victim's Prince. How they cope with that will depend on the situation, anything from "I'm shocked -- shocked! -- at what my Servitor did completely without my knowledge! I'll send him right over to you, would you like him canned or filleted?" to "Payback time, sucker, whatcha' gonna do about it?" But none of those options would be suitable in the situation you describe -- Lilith can't just hand over her Servitors or who's going to be a Wordhound, she can't maintain deniability if their "business" is essentially public knowledge, and she's cutting her own throat if she goes to war against another Prince. I'm sorry, but your logic just doesn't scan here. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:27:26 EDT From: Akumsa@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Broken promises etc. << Anyone got any suggestions for which Prince the Words of 'Promises Never Intended to be Kept', and 'Broken Promises' fall under? I can't make my mind up :) >> Freedom might be my guess, though Factions suits it jut as well. Also Media (Dont look at me like that, you EVER see a studio executive KEEP a promise?). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:38:59 EDT From: CaelinR@aol.com Subject: IN> Massada (was LA Wordhounds) <<- I think it's mandatory for every pupil to visit the place, and tank crews trainees take their vows there - but that's something very, very recent. Me, OTOH, if I had to make it a tether, I'd make it Saminga's. Almost a thousand people committed suicide there, you know. Either that, or Michael's ("death before dishonor"). >> Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the rebellion that caused the seige at Massada very much a religious conflict caused by Roman rule? A thousand people died there defending their Faith. Based on that, my bet's on Khalid. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:43:08 EDT From: CaelinR@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Broken promises etc. In a message dated 8/29/98 11:33:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Akumsa@aol.com writes: << Freedom might be my guess, though Factions suits it jut as well. Also Media (Dont look at me like that, you EVER see a studio executive KEEP a promise?). >> Freedom? Lilith doesn't have many servitors, so it'd have to be especially appropriate for her to be the Prince in question. And it'd probably be dissonant for him to accept the necissarry gaesea, since that requires keeping a promise. Besides, Lilith *always* keeps her word.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:49:46 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> Massada (was LA Wordhounds) At 06:38 30/08/98 , you wrote: > > <<- I think it's mandatory for every pupil to visit the place, and tank > crews trainees take their vows there - but that's something very, very > recent. Me, OTOH, if I had to make it a tether, I'd make it Saminga's. > Almost a thousand people committed suicide there, you know. Either that, > or Michael's ("death before dishonor"). >> > Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the rebellion that caused the seige >at Massada very much a religious conflict caused by Roman rule? A thousand >people died there defending their Faith. Based on that, my bet's on Khalid. The reasons of the rebellion weren't that much about religion - in that, the Romans have been more than tolerant - but about the grinding, unending oppression of being a Roman subject. Yes, the rebels believed that God himself would fight for them, there were a hell of a lot of false messiahs about that time, but the rebellion wasn't, per se, due to religious persecution (as opposed, say, to the Maccabean rebellion against Antiochus IV). As for the causes of suicide (sigh - do I really have to wade through 1930s Hebrew this early in the morning?), they are fefinitely not religious. Elazar Ben Yair even mentions the possibility that they reached that situation (i.e., the citadel falling into Roman hands) because of their sins. He calls them to die free (Lilith?), without having to see their women and children "led off to shame", and themselves to fight each other at the arena. That's "death before dishonor", in my book. But then again, they did kill their children - an earlier version of Jonestown? - so they could easily be said to be under the influence of Saminga. Mind you, it could always be Malphas at work... They were more fanatic than the Zealots, and they did commit atrocities toward those who disagreed with them. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 1998 11:33:22 -0500 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: IN> Wordhounds >>>>> "C" == CaelinR writes: >>>>> "n" == neel@cswv.com writes: n> Why not? You don't think that Lilith actually believes in freedom for n> anyone but herself, do you? After all, if other beings' rights have to n> be observed, that would impede her own freedom of action -- and she n> can't go against her word, after all... C> I dunno. I think Lilith is probably *very* concerned with C> freedom beyond just the personal sense. First of all, her word is C> "Freedom," so she is very stongly linked to the state of freedom in C> the world. She gains a lot of essence from promoting the freedom of C> others, and she certainly craves that power. Granted, that's so C> *she* can remain free, but the practical result is at least a C> pragmatic, self-serving interest in the freedom of others. Yes, but remember that Lilith has the _demonic_ Word of Freedom. The freedom to swing your fist no matter whose face happens to be in the way. The freedom of the strong to trample on the weak, and the freedom of the weak to be trampled on (they have the right to defend themselves; who cares if they have the power to exercize it?). The freedom to dump toxins in public watercourses for the sake of personal profit. The freedom of each individual sheep farmer to let that one extra sheep graze on the commons....the sovereign freedom of each nation-state to arm itself with more and more nuclear weapons. Presumably there's an Angel of Liberty, but Lilith probably keeps him in permanent Trauma. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #933 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.