From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jan 5 18:17:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03873 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:17:38 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id SAA26386 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:10:46 -0600 Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:10:46 -0600 Message-Id: <199901060010.SAA26386@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1080 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, January 5 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1080 In this digest: Re: IN> Word Conflict Re: IN> Word Conflict Re: IN> Maya - (WAS: IN Charity Auction playlet) IN> Assistance on IN Scenarios IN> Re: David's Kind Offer! IN> today's posts Re: IN> today's posts RE: IN> today's posts RE: IN> today's posts Re: IN> Re: David's Kind Offer! Re: IN> Liber S. Contest updates... RE: IN> today's posts Re: IN> Re: IN- Canon question: Saints and Undead IN> Gabrielite Questions Re: RE: IN> today's posts Re: IN> Gabrielite Questions Re: IN> Re: David's Kind Offer! Re: IN> Gabrielite Questions Re: IN> Gabrielite Questions Re: IN> Gabrielite Questions Re: IN> Gabrielite Questions IN> Baphomet, Angel of the Temple, General of the Armies of God ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 04:21:17 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Word Conflict >On Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 12:36:12AM -0500, Perry Lloyd wrote: >> >>Children - reminds me of that Demon I had going for that word - -"There >> >>aren't enough Children in Hell - that looks like a nice opportunity". >> Must >> >>write her up for the list. >> > >> >> Yiurg... The Demon of Curropting Children, Then Killing Them >> >> Fate/Death >> >Personally, I'd prefer the Demon of Children to want people to act like >children, because children know the Way, until such concepts as altruism, >etc. are trashed into them by emotionally crippled parents. A Habbalite of >Dark Humour, perhaps. > >Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. And help models to want to look like children -> rape culture, etc., etc... Whoo-hoo!!! Look who's the big cry-baby, now!! "Stop acting like a child, Robert!" - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 04:33:04 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Word Conflict >At 12:36 AM -0500 1/4/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>>That is also possible -- or Belial's too thick in the head to go nuts, >>>whereas Gabriel was always connected with prophecy to a certain extent, >>>and we know prophets are often vague, obscure and not connected >>>entirely to reality. >> >>Gabriel is an Ofanite, therefore all her energy is within her, Belial is >>a Calabite, therefore his energy projected outside. Might this have >>something to do with it? > >It might! Good one. Gabriel internalizes her disjointedness, Belial >just blows things up -- like you can tell when a Calabite Prince >is destroying things more often? Just thinking about it from a man/woman social stereotype point of view. So far as I can tell, women and more likely to get upset emotionally and process through the pain whereas men tend to distance themselves from it. Not true in all cases, of course, and more and more women are showing this more typically male behavior recently. What else? ... Oh, yes, if one accepts the "depression is anger tured inward" theory, it helps explain why women tend to get depressed and men tend to get aggressive (at least, stereotypically). I persoanlly feel that this is because of the amount of actual power the individual feels, but anyway... >>>That, plus PMS, and Gabriel is explained nicely. (I can make PMS >>>jokes. I get it.) >> >>Good lord... "The PC's were watching the moon again, one of them thinks >>she's figured out Gabriel's 'cycle'" > > > >>>>> (And Gabriel *was* functional up until about Islam...) >>>>Dominic did handle that whole matter rather badly... >>>Stress. Very understandable. >> >>Heck yeah, stess compounded with social expectations. Research has >>shown that many women will not have PMS until they are told what it is >>(unfortunately for many, this is before menarche), also, one facinating >>study involved over 300 women. All were told by their doctors (gyns or >>whatever) when they would menstruating, but half weren't told the truth, >>so they *thought* they would be menstruating at a time when they >>actually weren't. >> >>All had PMS in proper time sequence with when they *thought* they would >>be menstruating, meaning it was more psychological than physioloical, of >>course, when it come to hormones and stuff the lines *really* blur so... >>Anyway... > >Ah, but I never know quite when I'm going to be menstruating, since I >have cycles that range from 28 to 40 days -- and I get the screaming >urge to kill things now and again, and they go away after I start >the "reboot of reproductive cycle." (Ditto tender breasts. I'm sure >that there's a strong psychological component, but I got the "I am >stressed out and angry right now - wow, 'reboot' just happened the >next day. Hm!" corrolation independantly.) > >Obviously Gabriel just has *really long* cycles, and she's been in >this one for a loooong time. Hmmm... long cycles... Perhaps PMS is a reflection of Gabriel's nature (or Lilith's) rather than Gabriel's nature as a reflection of PMS... >Or maybe she accidentally made the vessel hormonally unbalanced in >the first place. Oops. D'oh! Gotta watch that reality knob... >>>>> (Why, yes, I *am* in a strange mood.) >>>> >>>>Wow, you mean you're sometimes /not/ in a strange mood :) I'm >>>>permanently in one :) >>> >>>Sometimes I'm in different strange moods. >> >>:) Mood? What is this 'mood'? > >Sort of like aspects. Sometimes I'm in a weird mood, sometimes I'm >in a Djinn mood, sometimes I'm in a Lilim mood, sometimes I'm in >a Habbalite mood (usually during PMSsy stages). Ah... Yes, perhaps the Habbalah do, in fact, have cramps. Bad cramps. The cramps that feel like a knife being stabbed over and over into your... uh, whatever that part of the body is called. The fleshy part over the hips. - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 11:21:34 +0100 From: cd skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> Maya - (WAS: IN Charity Auction playlet) On Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 02:38:19PM -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 6:42 PM -0600 1/3/99, Shadowstar wrote: > > Typical. Just a little snippet, and *zing* she owns your soul. > > Somehow, I almost feel pity for those of you lucky enough to have her as > >your GM. > There are times when I worship at her feet and feed her Inner Shedite > bonbons. > It's safer that way. It occurs to this one that feeding it *bombs* would be safer... Though, as the Finns say, "Minun motorisaha son saunasa". (You don't want to know. Trust Me.) > >>Maya, Elohite of Eli in service to Blandine > > > > Yeah, right... Dreams, uh-huh... Sure it isn't Habbalah in service > >to Beleth? *grin* > I certainly hope it's not plural Habbalah, but we *all* know that > Maya's an angel. Really! Hmm, a collective of Habbalah, posing as one entity... Nah. It would never work. /cd, lacking blood sugar and wondering what the Gr*b*r/B**rs* collective is composed of... - -- "Hey, if I could start a world-ending thermonuclear war, I'd be glad to. It's got humour value. "Given that I can't, I'll just sow strife on a somewhat smaller scale." -- John Rowat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:31:07 -0600 From: "Yeager, Alex" Subject: IN> Assistance on IN Scenarios I don't post over here very often (and, oddly, I seem to botch up relations over here when I do, much more often than I do over on inwo-list :P ), but I have need of a bit of assistance... I am getting my summer IN scenarios written (most notably for GENCON). If anyone on this list is familiar with the area around Aviemore, in Scotland, please drop me a line (BIG bonus points if you're familiar with the Cairngorm Hotel). Thanks! Alex Yeager/YeagerAW@Maritz.com/North US MIB RD/Cheapass Demo Monkey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:32:40 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Re: David's Kind Offer! ">>>Hmmm, that doesn't sound like me either. Although it didn't stop David Edelstein from discussing the negatives of Martin Arnold!<<< "Such as your remarkable ability to continue publicly insulting people and then feign wounded indignation that you've been misunderstood when people act insulted?" Perhaps you could explain to me how I've publicly insulted you? Then perhaps you could explain how that is any different from your publicly and privately insulting me? A case of the pot calling the kettle black? Oh but there's one difference - I have never insulted you. Once again you've missed the point, I was responding to Eeyore's post to explain and correct his mistake in assuming I HAD insulted you (his comment about 'someone discussing David Edelsteins' negatives'). I was not a) Making a personal slight against Eeyore b) Making a personal slight against you c) Restarting the argument or flaming anyone d) All of the above "If you can find ANYONE else on this list who will support you with a credible argument showing that I actually posted ANYTHING that implied, by even a remote stretch, that I would complain about someone posting a review of what they thought of an In Nomine supplement as being "the release of saleable material," I never said you did - guess I lose! What a shame, and I'd have given anything for your autograph! ~g~ Seriously though, you flame me (which seems to be the only language you know or understand) for the misconception that I asked to given access to saleable material. I just find it ironic that you choose not to flame those who review or have reviewed books so far; the LC for example.Especially as some of these reviews contain 'spoilers' i.e. saleable material. So many of these reviews - which I have no problem with at all, and in fact welcome, do reveal stuff the at is in the book. Isn't' this what you were complaining about? Hmm, just one of life's many ironies I guess! Still haven't claimed that you ever said you would or have complained though. I don't have to prove anything. ">I have a question about the Liber Servitorum; is it just NPC's (plus an adventure or the odd seed)?" "NPCs, clarification and rules on Servants, guidelines on Roles." Thank you. ">If so, is this a good idea? What else is there that can justify the purchase?" "Let's just not go here...The Liber S is in production. If you don't think what's in it is useful, then don't buy it. But all that ranting for or against it will do is -- waste list bandwidth. And you don't want me getting Djinny again." I haven't ranted for or against it. I don't intend to rant for or against it. I haven't ranted for or against any other product. What I WILL continue to do is question upcoming supplements for my own benefit so as to discover whether they are going to be worth my while. I see nothing wrong in this. I don't intend to rant against something I knowto be in production for obvious reasons. Thank you for giving me an honest answer. That's all I really ask! J Martin "why that's the oldest trick in the book! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:34:24 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> today's posts >>Perhaps it's just that a team of twenty or so game writers cannot hope to produce and rigorously test >>anywhere near the amount of material that a fan community of hundreds, many of them experts in >>various fields, can. > >This is why a good group of playtesters is vital. I think this problem is now being addressed in In >Nomine, but the impact is just beginning to be felt." Okay, how about offering the opportunity to playtest the nest book to the entire list. Maybe even forums. "I have a very small budget, and even less bookshelf space...so of all the publications IN has put out, which do you-all-more-knowledgeable-than-I suggest?." As far as the revelations cycle is concerned, if you by one you will probably end up wanting them all. They contain some useful stuff, most notably the extended writeups for some of the Superiors (usually two per book). Unfortunately this means that so far only half of the Superiors have been covered in this way, so I would suggest leaving them until all the Superiors are covered. It's a bone of contention with me - I personally feel that there should be a Liber Superior that covers all of them equally at once. However, my recommendation would be the two Players Guides (Angelic and Infernal). You probably wont need the relic book (Liber Reliquarum) unless you really need ideas for relics and lots of toys to play with. Hope this helps J On another tack I've been thinking about how important the corporeal realm is. It would appear from the books that many of the Infernals resent God (i.e. rebelled) because of his infatuation with his 'talking monkeys'. But the reason for this infatuation seems quite obvious: the corporeal realm is where Words are born. For instance, at the start of this new year a new concept was born - the 'Euro', referring to the new currency for the EU (er, I think!). this word was born in the corporeal world and thus it's humans that give celestials their power - perhaps! But even if the concept for the 'Euro' was born in the mind of a celestial, the theory still applies; it's earth that gives power to these words. This is another reason for regarding someone like Saminga as an idiot; if all life was extinct as per his warped vision (I guess then the symphony would probably be performing John Cage's 4'33''!) all Words would lose his power. This is just something that came to me on a bus - I'm probably stating the obvious! Martin - mourning the loss of Tiffany Mitchell Lilim of Lust who's Dark Fate caught up with her before she could properly redeem! ~g~ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:45:21 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> today's posts At 10:34 AM -0800 1/5/99, Martin Arnold wrote: [Walter Milliken wrote:] >>Perhaps it's just that a team of twenty or so game writers cannot hope >>to produce and rigorously test anywhere near the amount of material >>that a fan community of hundreds, many of them experts in various >>fields, can. >> >>This is why a good group of playtesters is vital. I think this problem >>is now being addressed in In >Nomine, but the impact is just beginning >>to be felt. > >Okay, how about offering the opportunity to playtest the nest book to >the entire list. Maybe even forums. There are playtest forums on Pyramid. I get very good results. If you don't want to subscribe to Pyramid, that is not my concern. I get plenty of playtesters on Pyramid already. (Some of them with extensive historical credits, which grabbed a number of potential problems with the Liber Castellorum.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:59:19 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> today's posts Elizabeth, correct me if I'm wrong, but you _can't_ open the playtest to everyone without giving away certain kinds of rights to the material that a restricted, membership only, controlled list of playtesters allows you to keep, can you? Wasn't this one of the reasons that playtesting was moved to Pyramid in the first place, from being open to all io.com subscribers? steve -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth McCoy [mailto:emccoy@nh.ultranet.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 10:45 AM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> today's posts At 10:34 AM -0800 1/5/99, Martin Arnold wrote: [Walter Milliken wrote:] >>Perhaps it's just that a team of twenty or so game writers cannot hope >>to produce and rigorously test anywhere near the amount of material >>that a fan community of hundreds, many of them experts in various >>fields, can. >> >>This is why a good group of playtesters is vital. I think this problem >>is now being addressed in In >Nomine, but the impact is just beginning >>to be felt. > >Okay, how about offering the opportunity to playtest the nest book to >the entire list. Maybe even forums. There are playtest forums on Pyramid. I get very good results. If you don't want to subscribe to Pyramid, that is not my concern. I get plenty of playtesters on Pyramid already. (Some of them with extensive historical credits, which grabbed a number of potential problems with the Liber Castellorum.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:28:32 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> today's posts At 10:59 AM -0800 1/5/99, Steven Feldon (Exchange) wrote: >Elizabeth, correct me if I'm wrong, but you _can't_ open the playtest to >everyone without giving away certain kinds of rights to the material that a >restricted, membership only, controlled list of playtesters allows you to >keep, can you? Entirely possible, yes. I'm not the legal expert, though. It might just be because the net *is* full of people who don't understand that intellectual property is what *feeds* some other people. >Wasn't this one of the reasons that playtesting was moved to >Pyramid in the first place, from being open to all io.com subscribers? When io.com became more than the net-connected version of the SJG-BBS? Yes, I suspect that's a plausible reason. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:26:38 EST From: Endlsskid@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: David's Kind Offer! Hello .... the Endlsskid back again! (again..ive only posted once...oh well!) I must say that I do love this list and all of the ideas that it does inspire... o.k. so there ar ethe occassional servant of Nybbas and Haagenti and whoever else who enjoys spamming the rest of us innocents..but form wut ive been seeing lately it would seem that an agent of Malphas has wormed his way into our ranks! Oh no!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 14:52 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Liber S. Contest updates... >>After all stats are nice but personality and motivations are what make >>characters live and these are one of the tools the games gives the referee. > >That's what the descriptions are for! > >>>What about Needs? Most and Least Honourable Acts? Destiny and Fate >>>[to name the most frequently resonated long term information about >>>characters] I'd rather have more general description, frankly, though including hints about these things in the descriptions is useful. (E.g., general goals, and a couple high or low points in the character's history -- these are both more generally useful in seeing how to run the character.) Needs and Most/Least Honorable acts are much too likely to change with what the GM wants to do with the character, and the current situation (especially Needs). Destiny and Fate are more fixed, but are probably most important for humans. It would certainly be useful if there was something on potentials either way in the description for ordinary humans. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:25:28 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: RE: IN> today's posts On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 10:59 AM -0800 1/5/99, Steven Feldon (Exchange) wrote: > >Elizabeth, correct me if I'm wrong, but you _can't_ open the playtest to > >everyone without giving away certain kinds of rights to the material that a > >restricted, membership only, controlled list of playtesters allows you to > >keep, can you? > > Entirely possible, yes. I'm not the legal expert, though. It might > just be because the net *is* full of people who don't understand > that intellectual property is what *feeds* some other people. Let me give it my first-year I-just-learned-how-to-do-legal-research law student try: Even though distributing a publication freely does nothing to a copyright, a copyright holder is required to take ordinary steps to keep the copyright secure. Publishing in a traditional format like a book is safe - nobody could reasonably expect a publisher to print a book on Xerox-proof paper, or, like William Gibson did with that poem he put out a few years ago, make it a read-only-once computer program that prints out on a screen. However, it can be held that more than just stating that you have a copyright is needed in some cases to make it enforceable. For example, this very post is copyrighted by me. (Copyright automatically devolves on things a person writes even if they don't explicitly claim it, except in limited circumstances. I'm ignoring the 'everything sent to the list becomes the property of S.J. Games' clause which I seem to be remembering from somewhere.) However, since anyone can get a copy of it on their computer at home by going to the In Nomine Mailing List archives and downloading a copy, I can't object to their possessing a copy of my copyrighted material and take them to court for doing so. If I wanted to put out a custom CD-ROM called "The Best of Jason's In Nomine Mailing List Posts" and sell it mail order, I could still do that. My posts are still copyrighted to me. But I still couldn't complain that people had downloaded the material which I was now trying to sell - downloading it is "fair use". In fact, I -intended- that you download and read these articles at least once. If Maya wanted to put out a custom CD-ROM called "The Best of Jason's In Nomine Mailing List Posts", I might or might not have a claim, since that's a use of my material that's of a level much higher than downloading and reading my articles from the Archives. (making money off someone else's work is hard to defend as reasonable). This is why a lot of things like custom DOOM .WADs will be zipped with a README saying 'I do not give permission for these files to be included in any compilations or copied to other ftp sites without my express permission.' That alone may not do it, but it will give some evidence that the person intended to limit the use of their writing. Now that the lawyerly introduction is over, on to the topic of the 'unlimited playtest'. The fact is that SJ Games has -some- ways of protecting itself if it wanted to put out a IN sourcebook for critique, review, and playtest by, for example, the mailing list participants. It can, for example, not archive the sourcebook on the mailing list archives. It might put a disclaimer on it saying that you are allowed to make one and only one copy of the sourcebook (similar to commercial software that uses different user licenses and site licenses). However, it is more likely that they are afraid that the sourcebook will end up beyond the reach of the law. This is a brazenly international mailing list and SJ Games knows it - someone from another country might post the sourcebook to a newsgroup or a web page and make enforcing the copyright moot, and make seeking damages against them prohibitively expensive. Or someone might 'just mail it to a couple of friends' who might not understand what they were getting and it would be accidentally done. Even if it was done brazenly and maliciously by someone who lived halfway between SJ Games and the nearest courthouse (to make for the most convenient and the cheapest venue and jurisdiction imaginable), the damage done (the sourcebook out on the net well before the product hits the shelves) might well be such that just giving SJ Games a chunk of money won't solve the problem. In other words, there are lots and lots of reasons not to send a playtest version of a sourcebook to an open and free mailing list. Using a pay site protects SJ Games on any number of levels. (Even using a PAY site is something of a risk on their part, but I think it's a quantum lower, since they can then control the user agreements much more closely.) Jason on to stambovsky v ackley ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 15:43 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Canon question: Saints and Undead >Hmmm... In _Night Music_: Amanda Dearling (soldier) has the Balseraph >Attunement of Lust (pg 56), Mal Barker (mummy) has the Calabite of >Saminga attunement (pg 61) Neither of those are included in the >(on-line) errata as being incorrect. Possibly they should be, though... that's up to Elizabeth. It wouldn't be the first case of needing to correct attunement problems in early characters.... That said, it's probably *possible* for a Superior to give a human a servitor attunement that closely mimics a Choir/Band one. But I don't think it would be at all common. In fact, I believe attunements aren't supposed to be very common in Soldiers, at all, but I can't quote you where I get that impression from. >Page 31 states "Not being angels, soldiers and other mortals cannot >purchase Choir Attunements." > >One could argue that if one is not an angel, one cannot have a Choir >Attunement. Period. I assume this is from the Soldiers of God description, which probably explains "angels" and "Choir" instead of "celestials" and "Choir/Band". Unfortunately, Night Music and The Marches contain a lot of fuzzy stuff that needs to be clarified/corrected. At least in my opinion.... >However, this sentence defines soldiers as being "mortals", comparing >them to Angels (therefor "not-mortals"). But Saints and Undead are no >longer considered "mortal" in game terms. I don't think "mortal" has an actual accepted canon definition. I think it's generally been used loosely as a synonym for "living human", possibly for no better reason than avoiding word repetition. > Mortals have to purchase >Toughness, rather than raise their Vessel level, as can the Undead (and >Celestials and presumably Saints, NMpg31), Saints and Undead may use any >kind of Song, not just Corporeal as "mortals" are limited to (w/o the >required Attunement)(NMpp45,61,63), Undead regenerate Essence at the >same time as Demons (INpg) though I do not know when Saints do. Given the normal meaning of the word "mortal", I'd generally classify undead under that term -- they can definitely be killed. In fact, they're more dead when killed than regular humans.... Similarly, it can be argued that Saints are still "mortal" in the sense that any human is -- they eventually wind up in the higher Heavens (or Hell, if they "Fall"). Lacking a precise canon definition, I don't think "mortal" is a useful word to use in game mechanics. >I'm not trying to build up evidence to attack anyone's position, merely >to get to the root of what is established canon, and what isn't. :) No problem, I agree with that wholeheartedly. The problem is that canon is often very fuzzy in the early books, often to the point of obscurity and confusion. (You can tell I'm a GURPS player, probably....) This is now being cleared up, slowly. The APG and IPG do a fair amount of cleanup for the Choirs, Bands and Superior attunements, as does L.Canticorum for Song canon. But there are still big fuzzy holes around humans.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:53:26 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: IN> Gabrielite Questions Must Gabrielites -witness- the cruel act which they are going to punish, or do they have some ability to sense cruelty in a human soul? If they need to witness the cruel act, can they detect things like emotionally cruel relationships? Is witnessing them together sufficient or do they need to see the cruel behaviour actually take place? If they need not witness the cruel act, must they investigate to find the extent of the cruelty? What about 'systemic cruelty' like unfeeling bureaucracies? Do Gabrielites punish systems as the systems punish the people - impersonally? Or do they punish the people involved in the system because they perpetuate the cruel system? What if the people involved have no control over the cruel policies of the system? If someone is cruel to themselves, clearly this is something terrible which Heaven would like to discourage. But is 'punishment' a response an angel would think of in this case, Gabrielite or not? Does punishment always have to be the causing of pain or loss of some kind? Jason food for thought ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 15:58 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: RE: IN> today's posts >In other words, there are lots and lots of reasons not to send a playtest >version of a sourcebook to an open and free mailing list. Using a pay >site protects SJ Games on any number of levels. (Even using a PAY site is >something of a risk on their part, but I think it's a quantum lower, since >they can then control the user agreements much more closely.) And, in fact, they send you through a web page that very explicitly states what you can and cannot do with the playtest copies, before you get to the actual download area. Also, in theory, they can know who *has* copies, since they can log who's visited those download areas, courtesy of the password mechanism. (I don't know offhand if they do this or not, though. But it's possible.) This isn't knowable for a mailing list, which may include addresses which are secondary "mail exploders", drop-box addresses with ".forward" files, etc. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 16:10 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Gabrielite Questions >Must Gabrielites -witness- the cruel act which they are going to punish, >or do they have some ability to sense cruelty in a human soul? I've been assuming from the wording that they just sense this, as part of their Choir attunement. >If they need not witness the cruel act, must they investigate to find the >extent of the cruelty? I'd say that they'd know roughly how cruel the person is, though probably not specifics. I.e., "this person occasionally hurts others emotionally," not "this person makes tasteless racial jokes to subordinates of the race in question." Some servitors may investigate, in order to determine the most appropriate punishment, others may not. >What about 'systemic cruelty' like unfeeling bureaucracies? Do Gabrielites >punish systems as the systems punish the people - impersonally? Or do >they punish the people involved in the system because they perpetuate the >cruel system? What if the people involved have no control over the cruel >policies of the system? I would expect them to target the people who *make* those policies. >If someone is cruel to themselves, clearly this is something terrible >which Heaven would like to discourage. But is 'punishment' a response an >angel would think of in this case, Gabrielite or not? Does punishment >always have to be the causing of pain or loss of some kind? I'm not sure "punishment" is the right word in this case. The way I play Fire Servitors is that they're trying to get the target to realize that what they're doing is wrong, and stop doing it. And usually try to repair the damage, as well, though that doesn't apply as well to self-inflicted cruelty. "Punishment" is just the easiest way to get people to stop doing bad things. And it may not be physical -- I have Fire Servitors who do psychological punishments, as well. In some cases, just realizing what they are truly doing to others may suffice -- e.g., turning the tables so that the offender is on the receiving end of his cruel behavior. Needless to say, this somewhat simplistic approach doesn't always work, but it's useful and effective when it does. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:28:25 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Re: David's Kind Offer! On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Martin Arnold wrote: > Seriously though, you flame me (which seems to be the only language you > know or understand) for the misconception that I asked to given access > to saleable material. Hm. All the responses to you that I remember shared this 'misconception.' Only you know what was in your mind when you wrote your email. However, if all the people reading a letter agree it means something other than what the author intended, the fault does not lie with the readers. Look, you asked questions and included so little context they could only be answered by giving you the source material. How would we know if the Tether book contradicts your London campaign without any information about your London campaign? You ignored the parts of posts (two posts, iirc) which answered the one specific question about how many Forces a Seneshal would have, and you complained that nobody had answered your questions. The only other question I recall from you was how well the Tetherbook would agree with your campaign. Since you hadn't given us any information about your campaign, nobody *could* answer that except by sending you a copy of the Tether book. How else could we interpret that except as a repeated request for (at least) large sections of the Tether book? This interpretation is only strengthened by your repeated request to playtest the In Nomine books over the mailing list you're a part of, not responding to rational (if somewhat tart) reasons the Steve Jackson Games employees have given you for not doing so. Why don't you let it rest for a couple of days, then go back and reread the thread in the archives, remember that we know nothing about your campaign or you beyond what you've told us, and try to figure out why your emails were interpreted the way they were? Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:34:43 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: IN> Gabrielite Questions On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Walter Milliken wrote: > >If they need not witness the cruel act, must they investigate to find the > >extent of the cruelty? > > I'd say that they'd know roughly how cruel the person is, though > probably not specifics. I.e., "this person occasionally hurts others > emotionally," not "this person makes tasteless racial jokes to > subordinates of the race in question." > > Some servitors may investigate, in order to determine the most > appropriate punishment, others may not. A followup question: can a Gabrielite receive dissonance from unnecessarily punishing someone? For example, the racist-jokemongering boss you mention: if a Gabrielite set fire to his house as punishment (far incommensurate with the size of the sin), could they receive dissonance from that as unnecessarily destructive to a human's life? Jason ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 16:41 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Gabrielite Questions >A followup question: can a Gabrielite receive dissonance from >unnecessarily punishing someone? For example, the racist-jokemongering >boss you mention: if a Gabrielite set fire to his house as punishment (far >incommensurate with the size of the sin), could they receive dissonance >from that as unnecessarily destructive to a human's life? I would say that going *too* far overboard would be cruel, and therefore definitely dissonant. They probably aren't as rigid about it as Judgment Servitors, though. What constitutes "too far" is going to be a GM call, though. In the case above, I'd say it is likely to be overboard, *unless* that was the only way to reach this turkey (which seems unlikely, but some people require correction with a 2x4...). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:38:39 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Gabrielite Questions At 1:53 PM -0700 1/5/99, Jason Corley wrote: >Must Gabrielites -witness- the cruel act which they are going to punish, >or do they have some ability to sense cruelty in a human soul? The latter. They are attuned to that kind of cruelty (as per Choir) and get to just *see* -- "That guy is a slumlord," "This person is a child abuser." Etc. > Or do >they punish the people involved in the system because they perpetuate the >cruel system? This one. >What if the people involved have no control over the cruel >policies of the system? Do they *enjoy* it? Do they realize they are being cruel and pretend it's not their fault? If the former, then probably Elohim spot them. If the latter, then Seraphim. >If someone is cruel to themselves, clearly this is something terrible >which Heaven would like to discourage. But is 'punishment' a response an >angel would think of in this case, Gabrielite or not? Does punishment >always have to be the causing of pain or loss of some kind? If it's self-cruelty, check out the Mercurians... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:42:50 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Gabrielite Questions At 2:34 PM -0700 1/5/99, Jason Corley wrote: > >A followup question: can a Gabrielite receive dissonance from >unnecessarily punishing someone? Nope. That's a problem that Judgment has, not Fire. Of course, if the *Fire* Servitor starts taking pleasure in being cruel (as opposed to actually just enjoying their job in a normal way), then their fellows may start noticing that their buddy is showing up on their Cruelty Detectors. >For example, the racist-jokemongering >boss you mention: if a Gabrielite set fire to his house as punishment (far >incommensurate with the size of the sin), could they receive dissonance >from that as unnecessarily destructive to a human's life? I wouldn't think so -- but a Seraph of Fire might pick this person up as someone to smack. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:05:35 +1100 From: jumpshot@nobbys.net.au (Karen J Davies) Subject: IN> Baphomet, Angel of the Temple, General of the Armies of God Dayum. You miss two days of posts and a whole thread that you are interested in his already run its course. Just for the record, I also believe that the Templars were NOT involved in any sort of heretical practices or "witchcraft" (including the kissing of cats bottoms....). I certainly don't think Dominic would condone the methods used for the extractions of the "confessions" given by the Templars in their "trial". Dominic would have been mortified by the gross miscarriages of justice that went on in France at the beggining of the 14th century... The Grand Master of the Templars at that stage, Jaques de Molay, had the opportunity to fade away into quiet retirment if he had just stuck with his torture-induced testimony. Instead he recanted in the full knowledge he was guranteeing himself a slow and painful death by buring alive. As to the Templar treasure, there are also many theories on that subject. One is that, even though the Friday 13 co-ordinated internatiaol arrest was shrouded in secrecy, the Templars managed to get wind of it. Somewhat overconfident of there personal ability to beat such charges, they still wanted there finances safely stowed. They were sent by sea to the north of Scotland where Rober the Bruce had assured there safe passage, at a price. Robert was desperate for funds to help pay for his campaigning against the English. When the Templars were renounced, he gave refuge to many, plus had more funds at his disposal. It is also said that at the crucial moment of the Battle of Bannockburn, where the day could have been won or lost by either side, a group of fresh "white clad horseman" sharged the ENglish flank, sending them to rout. BAPHOMET Angel of the Temple General of the Armies of God, Vassal of Trade The four Hellsworn soldiers approached the remaining Templar Knight with their blades pointed and ready. Six of their comrades lay dead already. "Yield now, in the name of the Hospital of Saint John..." It was the leader of the black coats that spoke his command, the timbre of his voice showing his fear. At the mention of their patrons name, the Templar showed his first flash of true anger. His smooth, serene features twisting in ugly hate. "Do not sully the name of a Saint by allowing such to pass by your devil-tied lips, dogs of Satan", he hissed. As he struck the head from the speaker in a swift, powerful sweep, his face once again became calm. Baphomet, Angel of the Temple, sang a hymn softly to himself as he sent the souls to thier promised land... 6'4", 220 lbs, black hair, thick beard, brown eyes, tanned, sun hardened skin. Corporeal Forces - 6 Strength 14 Agility 10 Ethereal Forces - 5 Intelligence 10 Precision 10 Celestial Forces - 4 Will 10 Perception 6 Vessels: Human/6 (adult male), Human/6 (adult male Body Bagged*) Role: Templar Knight/6 Status: 4 (Liturgical Assistant to the Grand Master of the Temple) Skills: Climbing/4, Dodge/6, Fighting/5, Large Weapon/6, Move Silently/3, Ranged Weapon/5 (crossbow), Language/3 (English), (Arabic), (Latin), (French), Savior Faire/2, Small Weapon/5, Tactics/6, Throwing/4, Detect Lies/3, Survival/4 (Desert), (Woodlands), Knowledge/4 (Theology), Riding/6 (Horse) Songs: Entropy (Corporeal/4), Form (Corporeal/5, Ethereal/4, Celestial/4), Tongues (Corporeal/4, Ethereal/5, Celestial/4), Wings/5, Motion (Celestial/4), Thunder/6. Attunements: Malakim of the Sword, Blade Blessing, Hunt, Scabbard, Purity of Purpose, Holy Fortitude, General of the Armies of God, Vassal of Trade, Divine Contract. Artifacts: Body Bag (a body shaped stone coffin hidden in the secret crypts beneath the Temple of Solomon, Helm of Sight, Holy Sword of Cleansing (Large Weapon/4, Blessed by Pope, do damage as Holy Bullets, scabbard is a Reliquary/6), Shield of Solomon (Shield (Corporeal/4) Special Rites: Spend 2 hours in the inner sanctum of the Temple of Solomon (+1); take part in a Templar initiation ceremony (+2); protect a human from Hells influence (+1). Baphomet was a close companion of Laurence, Angel of the Sword, when they both served Uriel, the Archangel of Purity during "the cleansing" of the 8th century. Side by side they would slay the creatures of myth on thier divine mission. On at least one occasion, Baphomet was corperally slain protecting Laurences back, which is a nice gesture even for a trauma-free Malikite warrior. When Uriel was sent upstairs and Laurence was promoted, Baphomet became a servitor of the Sword. Laurence remained his friend, but was loathe to award Baphomet a Word or many Attunements/Disitinctions lest he be seen as showing favoritism to an old comrade. Thus, Baphomet saw far less of his friend and though he worked hard and gave his all for the Cause, he received little attention. He certanly did not complain however. As a true Malikite, he did not expect to be rewarded for his actions. He just happilly obeyed his Archangel and conducted himself with supreme honour. With the enormous upturn in infernal influence that came with this chaos and social upheaval of the Crusades (starting 1097 AD)l, Laurence felt that he needed an organised force of humans, in service to God and himself. Its primary purpose was to deal with the large quantity of recently recruited Hell soldiers with the secondary purpose of demon hunting. Laurence announced to all the Celestials he could contact that he would grant a powerful Word to the one that organised the most appropriate force. Baphomet saw the window of opportunity. Hugh de Payens was the man Baphomet recruited to head his force and by 1118 King Baldwin II of Jerusalem gave his royal blessing to the group. The Order of the poor Knights of Christ and the Temple of Solomon was born. Within ten years, Laurence gave the Word of the Temple to his friend and bestowed upon him his highest distinction. Pope Innocent II, under the Archangels influence, issued the Bull "Omne datum optimum", bestowing "every greatest gift" upon the Order. The Word of the Temple represented not just the physical structure of the Temple of Solomon, or even the Order or the Catholic Church, but the concept of protection for the devout from the influence of evil, Hell and its minions. This meant that sometimes Templars would be called upon to protect devout Muslims from Hell aligned Westerners portrayed as Christians. This usually had to be done secretly for obvious reasons, but still rumors abounded in Christendom regarding the Templars being very assimilated into the Arab culture. Baphomet is slain in battle twice during his time in Outremer (at Hattin 1187 and Acre 1291). To avoid even the slightest delay that such death sould cause, he has an extra Vessel stashed away in the Temple for these occasions. He serves as a Liturgical Assistant to the Grand Masters of the Temple as they come and go, ageing his Vessel as required. Only the Grand Masters are aware of his true nature, though he communicates to the other brethren through Songs and various statues. This evidence of divine favor makes the Order one of the most feared, single minded and unbreakable force on the face of the planet. With the watchful blessing of Laurence, Marc is allowed some influence over the direction of the Order in an effort to make it a fully self sufficient entity that will survive for all time. Marc soon has the Order of the Temple thriving as the first multi-national corporation. Baphomet is awarded with an Attunement and a Distinction, which is all Laurence will allow. As the Crusades movement died out due to many varied reasons, Hells forces turn their political energies toward the Order. Laurence is kept busy on many other issues, and ignores his old friends pleas for assistance due to Baphomets over indulgence on Marcs issues. In 1314 the Grand Master of the Knights Templar is put to death at the stake for alleged heresy. In fact, Philip V of France is only jealous of the great wealth of the Order and wishes to be free of his numerous debts. Unaided, Baphomets word is destroyed, through hellish influence. He is crushed in Celestial combat, that he could have avoided, but instead meets head on. This inspires the broken spirit of Jaques de Molay, the condemned Grand Master, to a last minute act of defiance which seals his doom. Both choose death before dishonor. Laurence still feels some guilt over what happened, though he blames Marc for the downfall of the Order and thus, for his old friends demise. As a remnant, Baphomet remembers nothing of his former existence. He continues to live due to the remaining Song of Entropy that he unknowingly performs every time he begins to feel the effects of age biting at his joints. This Song has become like a sub- conscious attunement which he has absolutely no control over. He has no idea that his mortal vessel is now around 680 years old. The only thing more foggy than his his short term memory is his long term memory. Sometimes he has the strangest dreams with himself clothed in pure white emblazoned with a stark red cross, smiting mis-shapen creatures with a huge sword while smiling contentedly. He works as a bouncer at a seedy night club. His has difficulty spotting them, but whenever he runs into some low life attempting to bring the weak minded down to Hell with them, he steps in and pounds 'em. Although easily confused, most people respect him for his pounding ability, though he is certainly not overly violent by nature. In fact, many regulars call him Bishop now because of the sermons he sometimes preaches to "wrong-doers". OLD "BISHOP" BART (Baphomet) Remnant of the Sword 6'4", 220 lbs, black hair tied back, thick beard, brown eyes, tanned, sun hardened skin, apparent age 45ish. Corporeal Forces - 4 Strength 10 Agility 6 Ethereal Forces - 2 Intelligence 4 Precision 4 Celestial Forces - 0 Will 0 Perception 0 Skills: Fast Talk/2, Dodge/4, Fighting/5, Large Weapon/2, Move Silently/2, Language/3 (English), Language/1 (Arabic), (Latin), (French), Small Weapon/2, Tactics/1, Knowledge/2 (Theology), Riding/2 (Horse) Songs: Entropy (Corporeal/3) Attunements: Purity of Purpose. Special Rites: Protect a human from Hells influence (+1). - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeremy Davies Writer-in-progress ! "The lifestyle's the best, PO Box 376 Fantasy, Sci-fi, Horror it's just the writing Cessnock NSW 2325 Historical (Crusades period) that sucks". AUSTRALIA Lifetime Celtics fan..... Ben Katz on being a writer - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1080 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.