From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jan 20 13:11:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18893 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:11:38 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA02716 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:00:07 -0600 Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:00:07 -0600 Message-Id: <199901201800.MAA02716@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1101 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, January 20 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1101 In this digest: Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Re: IN> Range of Songs Re: IN> Range of Songs Re: IN> Range of Songs Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios IN> Kyrios & Pregnancy Re: IN> Whine about GURPS IN> Kyriotates and Pregnancy (A plot seed...) IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> Webpage & Copyrights Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 19:29 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Whine about GURPS [Kevin Walsh:] > And some Celestials aren't any >harder to kill than humans. My favourite PC has 9 positive and 3 negative >hit points, to a CorpForce 2 human's average 8 positive and 4 negative hit >points. I'm not going to judge how well this area maps unless and until I >see the GURPS IN version of it, and I might prefer that rendering to the >IN system's way of handling it (which is also one of the more unpopular IN >rules). In my current thinking, the "default" celestial will have 14 hit points (HT 14), vs. the "default human" value of 10 (HT 10). In GURPS, you go the same value in the negative direction before death becomes possible, so that's 28 vs. 20. In GURPS, death is not automatic at -HT, you roll against HT to continue to survive, so the celestial is fairly likely to survive beyond -HT, while with a standard human, it's 50/50. Now, add to that that celestials will be able to raise their HT or hit points with starting character points, and they can easily get to rather inhuman levels of being hard to kill. In my current thinking, celestials have about 100 points available for customization, past basic vessel requirements, so 20 or so Extra Hit Points is relatively possible. That will make them a *lot* tougher than a human, but they won't stand up to heavy weapons fire for very long, which seems OK to me. It certainly won't take a tac-nuke to take one out, at least.... Not that the current IN system is *that* bad, but sometimes it feels that way to PCs who don't have military-grade weaponry or special attunements. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 19:40 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Whine about GURPS >Yeah I understand thet messing about with GURPS basic structure would be a >pain in the proverbials to do. But changing the cost of Will and >Perception so they cost somewhere near the same as stats would be a good >idea. Actually, they do. I'm translating Ethereal stats roughly to IQ, with Will and Sense rolls (GURPS equivalent of Perception) based off of IQ. Both can be raised and lowered by appropriate advantages and disadvantages, which actually come out to roughly the cost of an attribute level increase (Alertness=5, Strong Will=4, attribute levels cost 10 to start), so someone with high Celestial would simply take a couple levels of each, rather than buy up IQ. Yeah, it's imperfect, artificial, and somewhat granular, but so is the original IN stats system. I don't think it's significantly worse.... I do think that "native" GURPS IN characters will probably look a bit different than converted ones, but that's inevitable, since GURPS offers more flexibility and scope in many ways. >>As to your other points, I've been thinking vaguely about doing >>wargame-type rules for IN mass combats (for about a day now) and I thought >>Essence was the perfect match for Fatigue. This was before seeing any >>reference to such thoughts on the list. > >I don't know much about wargames but my point was that you don't recover >Essence by having a bit of a rest, using Essence as a measure of Fatigue >*may* work fine in a war game where you don't have time to rest, I really >wouldn't know. Celestials *won't* be able to recover Fatigue by resting, only humans will be able to do that. Some appropriate game-world justification will be made for this. On the other hand, celestials will not fatigue normally like humans -- the *only* think their Essence/Fatigue is useful for is Songs and other supernormal powers, while humans, who recover Essence quickly, can't generally use it for such things. It *will* make Soldiers more powerful, and Impudites maybe a little (the average human will have more Essence than in IN). Having a Soldier servant will be quite useful, if you tap them as an Essence battery. Of course, there are already munchkinoid tricks you can do in IN that are similar.... >I agree that many Celestials shouldn't be able to take more damage than a >human because they aren't combat monsters (and I don't see IN as a very >Combat based game) but the ones which are combat based should be pretty >obscene, they are the emmisaries of Heaven and Hell after all. They can be, fairly easily, especially if they are allowed to take DR for their vessels (right now, I'm leaning towards saying no to this). A truly nasty combat-monster will be fairly point-expensive, but that's as it should be, in GURPS. GURPS also offers several specialized advantages that make combat monsters easier -- it doesn't all have to be in hit points. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 19:53 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Whine about GURPS [Brian A.H.:] > A further problem with GURPS conversions is the HT stat, >which is completely subsumed into the ST stat for IN purposes, but >that can be dealt with rather easily. It's messier than that, but I'm not addressing this so much from the point of view of conversion as from the point of view of creating GURPS characters for the IN background, which makes some of this easier. Roughly, ST will roughly correspond to Corp. Forces, IQ to Eth. Forces, and Cel. Forces are mapped onto the Alertness and Strong Will advantages (and corresponding disads) in GURPS. HT doesn't come out of IN stats at all, and defaults to 14 for celestials. For stats, Agility will map to DX, and Precision will mostly go away (there's a GURPS advantage that corresponds, if someone wants to bother with it). Generally, I'm trying to avoid doing strict numerical conversions, since they don't work well anyway. There will be mathmatical guidelines to converting existing IN characters by stat, but those aren't terribly important right now -- they're a minor part of the book. >Maybe, instead of Forces determining your attributes, your 'forces >rating' for whatever purpose is based on an average of scores or x + y >scores x 4/10 (IN human average divided by GURPS human average) >divided by four, ending up with 1/10 x+y scores? Been there, done that.... We're using stuff like this in some places, but it's not clear if it's doing much except adding unnecessary math, so it may get pruned away. Total forces may be based on total positive character points or something, but this doesn't map properly linearly for humans and celestials, so it's a bit troublesome. >Actually.... There are some rules for making fatigue for Powers >separate from fatigue for endurance. Maybe all of the inhabitants of >this world/dimension have a little something extra? The ability to >effect die rolls at a cost of a certain amount of essence? The use of Essence to affect die rolls is going away, mostly. (Some specific things, like Superior-summoning, allow it.) Mostly this is because chances of success are simply much higher in the GURPS mechanics - -- you don't *need* to boost skill a lot of the time. And allowing humans to do this unconsciously (as IN does) conflicts with existing GURPS mechanics in most places (there are some "Extra Effort" rules that allow it, and they'll apply). >I think that Celestials should be able to take more damage in some >situations- after all, these bodies were made for them. They also >work more efficiently (only need to breathe, I think). They will be, without additional point-expenditure, hardier than all but the hardiest humans (say, 95th-percentile), and can go up from there. They've got a whole bunch of special physical advantages over humans in GURPS terms; indeed, breathing is about all they *do* have to do. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 20:01 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Whine about GURPS [Ramesh:] >Yeah, but in IN IQ is less important because there are other equally >important measures of a charcter so the importance gets shared out. And >having one mental Stat bothers me. It bothers other people, too. But it's "canon GURPS", so that's the way we'll do it. People are free to use the optional "Will and Perception are attributes" rules, but we're not going to force them to. >I don't know much about GURPS but IIRC animals have 2 separte HT scores one >for HT rolls and one for damage they can take. IIRC Elephants can take >some thing like 200 pts of damage!!! Correct, and celestials will be able to do the same, by buying Extra Hit Points for their vessels. >Hmmm, doesn't Precision also represent ability to concentrate and stuff? Yep, but that's under IQ in GURPS, as is the IN Intelligence stat. The only aspect of Precision that works separately in GURPS is the notion of manual dexterity, which has a specialized advantage/disad pair, if one wants it -- it rarely affects game mechanics, though. >2 seconds after understanding what you were getting at I thought of that >and the flaw. Ick this conversion stuff is difficult. Tell me about it.... One has to approach it from the standpoint of "keep the general feel and don't try to mechanize the conversion mechanics". Otherwise one quickly goes crazy.... >>Furthermore, doesn't the book state that essence-less people feel down >>on their luck, tired, exhausted? > >Hmmm... I think that's flavour text which is pseudo-cannon (or whatever >the proper term is). But I'm cool with it being thought as some kind of >emotional/spirital/whatever fatigue as long as you can't get it back by >resting. Celestials can't, humans can. One of the few disadvantages of being a celestial.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 20:24 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Range of Songs >>Also Since there are a number of mentions of the Celestial plane being >>Up in some manner from the corporeal plane there is at least the >>suggestion that there is a direction even if not one of the standard 3. >>Hell is mentioned as being down on occasions > >This is because and don't translate into English. If >someone gets a tug "up", they're going to figure the person is in an >airplane or on a hill, not in Heaven. Likewise, if it tugs down, the >person is in China, not Hell. And, in fact, the Tetherbook clarifies this -- or at least I hope it does. "Up" and "down" are celestial slang terms, and the actual meaning changes from speaker to speaker, and even sometimes due to circumstances. They do have somewhat more precise meanings *with respect to Tethers*. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 20:33 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Range of Songs >>It is across realms. It is not distance. It is all around you, if you >>can only make the turn to the Q axis, instead of the usual dimensions >>that live about you. > >Then locations in those realms have a distances from the corporeal realm. >it's just along Q axis co-ordinates rather than the normal orthogonal set. >The metric involved may be pretty weird however. The realms may have a different *value* in some metric, but this may not be anything that could be construed as a "distance". How far is it from a red to blue in gluon colors? Is it farther than from green to blue? These are meaningless questions, as far as I know.... The colors are distinct, and that's all. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 20:38 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Range of Songs >>Main rule book page 138 Blandine's marches text box. From the balcony of >>Blandine's tower, the highest point in the angels side of the marches you >>can see Gabriel's volcano outlined against the walls of the eternal city. >>Both of which are in heaven. > >Yeah, well, the descriptions of all of that are *so* complicated that >it's hard to see. It is possible that Blandine (and Beleth) have some >sort of realtime copy, and one would not want to deal with them. >(The Marches are very fluid.) Those may be exceptions -- or they >may not be. Actually, I think the description in the Tetherbook contradicts this -- the upper parts of both Towers are there described as being in the celestial realm, and that there's a interface within the Towers. Or so I remember. This may need to be errata'ed one place or the other.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 20:51 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >Yeah, okay. So, characters would get the racial package then have >100pts to play with. :) Yep. >>GMs can also choose a more GURPS-classical fixed point total for all >>characters, but the result won't look as much like the IN univere, >since >>the choirs and bands are not all of equal power, nor are all the >>Superior attunements worth equal values. > >I wouldn't do it. Too messy. Me, I'd just set pt cost for Attunements >and Resonances at the same cost. You can do that in your own campaign, of course. As GURPS authors, we don't have that luxury -- things are supposed to cost what they're worth (in some sense). > Maybe, >call it 150pts for Resonance, Only the Kyrio resonance is that expensive (and more!), most are in the 20-80 point range, as I recall. (They're all done, first pass, and we hope to get them up for playtest soon, as soon as I get a chance to do some of the Characters chapter to cover some of the necessary references.) > 25pts per Attunement, Varies a lot, but probably the right ballpark. > 75pts per >Distiction, They're generally in about the same range as attunements, or so it seems. We haven't converted a lot of either, as yet. > and 10pts per Rite. Rites all cost 1 point/Essence they grant (which is twice the IN value, due to conversion to match Fatigue). >It'd seperate Fatigue from Essence. Ignore essence use by normal humans >(either that or give every human Luck advantage, sheesh), and use >something like Blood Pool from GURPS Vampire:TM. It's a conversation, >ain't it? As I mentioned elsewhere, the Blood Pool mechanic is one the Powers That Be specifically *don't* want to repeat. >Songs I'd work through individually, comparing them to supers abilities, >magical spells and psi. Mostly they'll be linked to magic spells, and will use the standard magic mechanics in GURPS. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 20:54 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >Of course if celestials gain fatigue for rites and time of day then some of >the feel remains. That's how we're working it. Those are the *only* ways celestials gain fatigue/Essence, other than getting it from someone else (deliberate transfers or Impudite resonance). >Not my best idea, especially if that has been used for interventions >already, >though I assume they are 3 and 18 on the dice as usual. More or less. We give two options, one more GURPS-like and one more IN-like. The effects are essentially the same, which you use depends on which you find gives a better feel or is easier to remember. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:45:44 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Walter Milliken wrote: > t> 75pts per > >Distiction, > > They're generally in about the same range as attunements, or so it > seems. We haven't converted a lot of either, as yet. Plus the cost of a level or two of Status for each Distinction, I would hope. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:59:31 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios On Tue, Jan 19, 1999 at 11:11:07AM -0500, Matthew Stein wrote: > >Even a Kyriotate of Creation should > >suffer dissonance for leaving a host pregnant with a child she > probably > >won't be able to properly care for. > > I'd think that this would be a zero sum - no dissonance. While, > sure, the Kyrio would gain dissonance from leaving a host > pregnant using your example (thus in worse shape), I'd think that > the benefits to Eli's Word would balance that out; I don't think so. Generally, dissonance removal should be related to what you did in order to gain the dissonance. And in this specific case, the Servitor of Creation can't get Word dissonance, and therefore shouldn't (IMO) be allowed to get out of dissonance for unspecified service to the Word of Creation. (Working at Tethers, or getting Eli to remove it, is fine.) In general, I also think that Choir dissonance is more important than Word dissonance, except where Word dissonance overwrites Choir dissonance (as with Mercurian of Judgement). Such distinctions make the difference between an Outcast and a Demon. (In certain dubious cases, I might let Word service sway a decision on whether Choir dissonance is given, but it should be fairly clear whether the host is worse off as a result of being pregnant.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:42:08 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Kyrios & Pregnancy it should be fairly clear whether the host is worse off as a result of being pregnant. - -- On the other hand, Genesis does give God telling all the creatures to 'be fruitful and multiply' so an angel who believed that was God's will might believe that in any case that wasn't absolutely clear, the default would be that pregnancy did not count as doing it harm. In fact, it might be doing the mortal a favour. I actually think that responsible sorts of Kyrios would make sure to leave a force or two spare to watch the mother-to-be through the pregnancy, via birds, household pets etc. Even someone who was financially badly off might find that council officials magically became more helpful and found resources to help her bring up the child, and that her path was smoothed by unseen forces. If the labour was really bad, the angel might even possess the body itself, to help out... (dozing through labour sounds like a reasonable option to me -- if you have ot do it at all...) You see this all the time, when women fall pregnant unexpectedly. They'll say afterwards that they hadn't really intended to have a baby, but that doesn't mean it was harmful to (either of) them in the long run. jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:03:15 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Whine about GURPS On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Walter Milliken wrote: > Total forces may be based on total positive > character points or something, but this doesn't map properly linearly > for humans and celestials, so it's a bit troublesome. How about basing it off total point cost for, or levels of, basic stats? (ST+IQ+DX+HT)/8 would give the average human five forces. Using it the other way around would give a nine-force Celestial 8*9=72 levels of basic stats, giving an average of 72/4=18... Scratch that thought. :P Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:38:27 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: IN> Kyriotates and Pregnancy (A plot seed...) Thanks, Jo! You just gave me a great plot seed for my next In Nomine campaign. One of my players plays a Kyrio of Jean who spends a lot of time 'in the sack,' (his girlfriend plays a Lilim of Creation who used to work for Lust...) The rest of the group includes two Mercurians of Yves (one in service to Archives), and a Seraph of Eli. So the plot seed is this: The Kyriotate gets one of his hosts pregnant, and *bong,* as he leaves, he gets the point of dissonance. So now he (and the rest of the group) are ordered to help the woman (an already-introduced immigrant from Mexico who works as one of the Mercurians' secretary and is the Kyrio's servant...) with her pregnancy. By Jean, Yves, *and* Eli. At the same time. And they won't say why. *evilgrin* Thanks again. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:08:50 +0000 From: "CA Smith" Subject: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios >In other words, a Kyrio could help a human who wants it become pregnant >(celestial fertility clinic!), but you can't just leave a host pregnant >without regard for the consequences. Even a Kyriotate of Creation should >suffer dissonance for leaving a host pregnant with a child she probably >won't be able to properly care for. > >- -David > A few points Can Kyrios get (someone) pregnant?, all of the other choirs are unable to have children without the use of the song of fertility. If they can why is a person being posessed by a Kyrio more likely to become pregant? if so Kyrios of Eli had better be -very- careful Also would the child, if it can happen, be wholey human? Aren't the nephalim the result of angels (grigori) and humans having children and whilst possessed the host of a Kyrio has little difference to an angel of another choir in a vessel Chris Smith Gremlim of Vapula Why do Calabim of Belial think bigger is better? a little snip here, a little snip there... and all hell breeaks loose! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 11:46 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >> t> 75pts per >> >Distiction, >> >> They're generally in about the same range as attunements, or so it >> seems. We haven't converted a lot of either, as yet. > >Plus the cost of a level or two of Status for each Distinction, I would hope. Yes, a level of celestial Status goes with each level of distinction. Obviously I need to get enough of this stuff in done-enough shape to post on Pyramid for preliminary playtest.... Now that I'm over my cold, I may have the energy to finish up the basic mechanics for celestial characters. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 12:00 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios >Can Kyrios get (someone) pregnant? Yes. So can Shedim. Unlike a normal vessel, the host bodies they inhabit are capable of normal reproduction. >, all of the other choirs are unable to >have children without the use of the song of fertility. Correct. >If they can why is a person being posessed by a Kyrio more likely to become >pregant? Not necessarily *more* likely, but it may happen normally because of their actions. >Also would the child, if it can happen, be wholey human? Yes. The conception occurs strictly from normal corporeal processes. > Aren't the >nephalim the result of angels (grigori) and humans having children Yes. But that's with celestial vessels involved. The conception process isn't entirely "normal" in that case. > and >whilst possessed the host of a Kyrio has little difference to an angel of >another choir in a vessel This is correct, and in my game, at least, I'd rule that actual conception would be delayed until the Kyrio left the host (since many normal low-level biological/biochemical processes are modified/surpressed by Kyrio/Shedite possession). However, conception doesn't have to happen at the time of the sexual act, if I recall correctly -- there's a period of something like a couple of days that the sperm are viable. I'm not sure what the implications are for male hosts.... I guess I'd rule that sperm outside the host would be normal, so conception from intercourse with a Kyrio-possessed male would be possible. The IPG (I think) discusses the related "incubus/succubus trick", by which a celestial using a pair of normal vessels of opposite sexes can get a human pregnant, without actually being a parent -- sort of a complicated form of artificial insemination. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 12:04 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Whine about GURPS >How about basing it off total point cost for, or levels of, basic stats? >(ST+IQ+DX+HT)/8 would give the average human five forces. Using it the >other way around would give a nine-force Celestial 8*9=72 levels of basic >stats, giving an average of 72/4=18... Scratch that thought. :P Uh huh. Exactly.... The other problem is the difference between 5-Force humans (25-point GURPS "normals") and 6-Force humans (which I assume standard 100-point GURPS "hero-material" characters are). For the curious, I currently have celestial base stats at 14 across the board. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:08:41 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Walter Milliken wrote: > >It'd seperate Fatigue from Essence. Ignore essence use by normal humans > >(either that or give every human Luck advantage, sheesh), and use > >something like Blood Pool from GURPS Vampire:TM. It's a conversation, > >ain't it? > > As I mentioned elsewhere, the Blood Pool mechanic is one the Powers That > Be specifically *don't* want to repeat. Ya know, that's a damn shame. It was one of the things that made that conversion work well, and it'd make this conversion work well, too. Turning Essence into Fatigue is crazy...it'll change *everything* about the way Essence works - change into something completely different. Who needs a Rite like 'spend two hours dancing' when you can just spend ten minutes resting instead? The Powers That Be dropped the ball here, IMNSHO. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Thinking about a Tampa Bay Devival in the future - email me! ::: Or go to http://www.cris.com/~pkitty (hell, go there anyways!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:18:22 PST From: "Krowe _" Subject: Re: IN> Webpage & Copyrights I just completed a Buisiness Practices and Copyright class a school. It was primarily slanted toward the visual artist but what I understand about the law is that using the image and a few quotes falls under fair use as long as you make nothing off of the use and post notice that the images and text are copyright by SJG. Basically when you review or discuss an object such as IN, fair use allows you to use a little of it as examples to what you are reviewing or discussing so long as you give credit to its owner(s) and make no profit from its use. I'm no student of law, so there may possibly be some loopholes here, but that's the way I understand the laws for use visual artwork that has a copyright. Hope it helps. Krowe Malakim Master of Destiny, Angel of Redemption Lord Master Librarian of the Night Angels Space Marines Lord of XAOZ "What good fortune for those in power, that people do not think." -- Adolf Hitler, 1889-1945 "Love is a dirty trick played upon us to achieve the continuation of the species." -- novelist W.Somerset Maugham, 1874-1965 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:18:30 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios CA Smith wrote: > A few points > > Can Kyrios get (someone) pregnant?, all of the other choirs are unable to > have children without the use of the song of fertility. Sure can. It's the difference between inhabiting a human vessel and inhabiting a celestially-created vessel. For all intents and purposes, a celestial vessel (I'm using the term here to mean the vessel that a Celestial uses on the corporeal plane, not a vessel in the celestial plane) looks, feels, and sounds human, and can pass closely enough for human to make no nevermind, but it doesn't need to eat, drink, excrete, or reproduce, and so it doesn't. (A Celestial can, of course, eat, but why would it excrete or reproduce? It doesn't have to, so it won't - the former because it simply wouldn't occur to them, the latter because they've heard the horror stories about what happened to the Grigori.) Now, a Kyriotate inhabiting a human is exactly that - for all intents and purposes, human. The body does, IMW, need to eat, drink, sleep, and excrete, and just because it's being possessed doesn't mean its sexual organs atrophy, or something like that. :) > If they can why is a person being posessed by a Kyrio more likely to become > pregant? If the Kyriotate did nothing in the body out of the ordinary, then there's no increase in the chances of getting pregnant. However, the issue at hand is a Kyrio having sex where the human wouldn't necessarily - - and there the odds of pregnancy rise dramatically. Incidentally, I can see a milennia-old Kyriotate who's developed fine enough control over its hosts that it can manipulate individual ova, such that it actually _can_ directly increase the chances of pregnancy (by making sure the ovum comes into contact with the sperm, and so forth). > if so Kyrios of Eli had better be -very- careful Well, all Kyrios had better be very careful. :) > Also would the child, if it can happen, be wholey human? Aren't the > nephalim the result of angels (grigori) and humans having children and > whilst possessed the host of a Kyrio has little difference to an angel of > another choir in a vessel Yes, it would. See above; the Nephilim came about as the result of Grigori sperm contacting human ova, or vice versa. With Kyriotates, it's human all the way. And yes, there is one large difference, noted above. Now, your GM could rule that Kyriotates suspend those needs for the period of habitation (not having a main book here with me, I can't say for sure whether that's canon or not), but I wouldn't, personally. To me, that's a Kyrio weakness. :) (Walter's post just came in, and is remarkably more concise than mine. *sigh* I bow to the master... ;) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:30:08 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Pee Kitty wrote: [blood pool] > Ya know, that's a damn shame. It was one of the things that made that > conversion work well, and it'd make this conversion work well, too. > Turning Essence into Fatigue is crazy...it'll change *everything* about > the way Essence works - change into something completely different. Who > needs a Rite like 'spend two hours dancing' when you can just spend ten > minutes resting instead? > The Powers That Be dropped the ball here, IMNSHO. Dittos. Hey, if you can't do the "Blood Pool" thing, can you do the "Quintessence" thing? ;-) That's closer to the way I see Essence anyway. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:37:35 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Perestroika wrote: > (A Celestial can, of course, eat, but why would it excrete or > reproduce? It doesn't have to, so it won't - the former because > it simply wouldn't occur to them, the latter because they've heard > the horror stories about what happened to the Grigori.) I believe that, according to the Songbook, celestial-made vessels are in fact made sterile and CAN'T reproduce unless the celestial uses the Song of Fruition, which is regulated closely by both sides. Children so produced are still just human, I think. The Nephallim were the specific product of human/Grigori crosses, the Grigori being even more human than Mercurians and, as one feature of that, fertile, or at least cross-fertile with humans. > Now, a Kyriotate inhabiting a human is exactly that - for all > intents and purposes, human. The body does, IMW, need to eat, > drink, sleep, and excrete, and just because it's being possessed > doesn't mean its sexual organs atrophy, or something like that. :) An inhabited host of a Kyriotate or Shedite (or other celestial using Song of Possession) does retain its original reproductive powers, but I thought that the host body acquired the benefits of a celestial vessel -- no need to eat, etc. -- for the duration. This meant, among other things, that a wimp possessed by a Kyriotate with lots of Corporeal Forces became, for the duration, very strong and tough. I recall there was a debate on the list about whether a strong human possessed by a wimpy Kyrio became wimpy, or whether the Kyrio could use the host's strength. (I don't recall the answer.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:30:28 +0000 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Walter sic scripsit: > > > and whilst possessed the host of a Kyrio has little difference to an > > angel of another choir in a vessel > > This is correct, and in my game, at least, I'd rule that actual > conception would be delayed until the Kyrio left the host (since many > normal low-level biological/biochemical processes are > modified/surpressed by Kyrio/Shedite possession). However, conception > doesn't have to happen at the time of the sexual act, if I recall > correctly -- there's a period of something like a couple of days that > the sperm are viable. It's five days survival for sperm, and three days for an ovum, which gives a danger period of 7 or 8 days. Wheee, my Biology degree come in useful for something. :-) Be seeing you... David. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:41:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... How would it be if GURPS IN characters start out as real weakinglings, but with a largish pool of points wherewith to buy "advantages" called "Corporeal Force," "Ethereal Force," or "Celestial Force," in discrete levels to mimic the granularity of IN Forces? Then each such level is good for increased levels of Strong Will, Alertness, Intelligence, Strength, Toughness, etc. The starting-point character would correspond to an IN character with only one of each kind of Force. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 12:44 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >Turning Essence into Fatigue is crazy...it'll change *everything* about >the way Essence works - change into something completely different. Who >needs a Rite like 'spend two hours dancing' when you can just spend ten >minutes resting instead? I think you missed something here -- celestials don't recover Fatigue normally, only humans do. So Rites are still very important to them. So are reliquaries, and associates they can tap for Essence. >The Powers That Be dropped the ball here, IMNSHO. Personally, I tend to agree with them on this one -- with celestials not recovering Fatigue like humans do, it should play pretty much the same. The only difference it makes is to *human* characters, who are not currently a major focus of IN, and to some extent to how celestials will view humans. Really what's happening here is more that GURPS Fatigue is being re-defined as celestial Essence, rather than the other way around. I.e., celestials think of it as Essence, and it works like Essence in IN, but it's used for things GURPS already uses Fatigue for (spells, extra effort, etc.). Humans think of it as fatigue, and for the rare ones who are active in celestial affairs, find they can use their personal energy (fatigue) for what celestials use Essence for (primarily Songs, for Soliders). If you compare what Essence and Fatigue do in the two game systems, you'll find they're pretty much different names for the same thing -- "personal energy" if you will. The only real difference is the game mechanics for recovery rates/mechanisms. I think giving celestial characters (only) the slow IN-style recovery rate fixes *most* of the differences; at least enough so to work well enough. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 12:49 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >Hey, if you can't do the "Blood Pool" thing, can you do the "Quintessence" >thing? ;-) That's closer to the way I see Essence anyway. What's that from, GURPS Mage? The White Wolf adaptations were all in the class of "we don't want to do it *that* way again". If you want to understand the reasoning more, talk to Kromm (GURPS Line Editor). I'm happy enough with Fatigue = Essence. Humans needed a little more edge in IN, anyway. This gives it to them. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 12:52 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios [EDG:] >Now, a Kyriotate inhabiting a human is exactly that - for all intents >and purposes, human. The body does, IMW, need to eat, drink, sleep, and >excrete, and just because it's being possessed doesn't mean its sexual >organs atrophy, or something like that. :) Actually, this is contrary to canon -- Kyrio and Shedite hosts are treated exactly like vessels for the duration of possession. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:52:14 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Pee Kitty wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Walter Milliken wrote: > > > >It'd seperate Fatigue from Essence. Ignore essence use by normal humans > > >(either that or give every human Luck advantage, sheesh), and use > > >something like Blood Pool from GURPS Vampire:TM. It's a conversation, > > >ain't it? > > > > As I mentioned elsewhere, the Blood Pool mechanic is one the Powers That > > Be specifically *don't* want to repeat. > > Ya know, that's a damn shame. It was one of the things that made that > conversion work well, and it'd make this conversion work well, too. > Turning Essence into Fatigue is crazy...it'll change *everything* about > the way Essence works - change into something completely different. Who > needs a Rite like 'spend two hours dancing' when you can just spend ten > minutes resting instead? I think Walter's explained several times that Celestials can't get back Essence/Fatigue by resting. Humans can, Celestials can't. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 12:56 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios >I believe that, according to the Songbook, celestial-made vessels >are in fact made sterile and CAN'T reproduce unless the celestial >uses the Song of Fruition, which is regulated closely by both >sides. Children so produced are still just human, I think. I don't know if the Song of Fruition was changed in the final published version of the Songbook, but the original published version (I forget which book it's in) does result in Nephallim some of the time. >An inhabited host of a Kyriotate or Shedite (or other celestial >using Song of Possession) does retain its original reproductive >powers, but I thought that the host body acquired the benefits >of a celestial vessel -- no need to eat, etc. -- for the >duration. This meant, among other things, that a wimp possessed >by a Kyriotate with lots of Corporeal Forces became, for the >duration, very strong and tough. Correct. - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1101 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.