From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jan 21 20:07:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03864 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:07:39 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id TAA19301 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:57:32 -0600 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:57:32 -0600 Message-Id: <199901220157.TAA19301@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1102 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, January 21 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1102 In this digest: Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios IN> Eating and the result (Re: RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios) Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... IN> ADMIN: Strange Bouncebacks Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... IN> A couple of things to watch/read. Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> A couple of things to watch/read. IN> Distinctions Re: IN> Distinctions Re: IN> Distinctions Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> A couple of things to watch/read. IN> Pregnancy & Kyrios IN> Nephallim RE: IN> Nephallim RE: IN> Nephallim RE: IN> Nephallim RE: IN> Nephallim (going off-topic for a short moment) Re: IN> Nephallim Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:03:08 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Earl Wajenberg wrote: > I believe that, according to the Songbook, celestial-made vessels > are in fact made sterile and CAN'T reproduce unless the celestial > uses the Song of Fruition, which is regulated closely by both > sides. Children so produced are still just human, I think. *nods* I don't have the Songbook, so I'll trust you on this one. :) > The Nephallim were the specific product of human/Grigori crosses, > the Grigori being even more human than Mercurians and, as one > feature of that, fertile, or at least cross-fertile with humans. *nods* > An inhabited host of a Kyriotate or Shedite (or other celestial > using Song of Possession) does retain its original reproductive > powers, but I thought that the host body acquired the benefits > of a celestial vessel -- no need to eat, etc. -- for the > duration. This meant, among other things, that a wimp possessed > by a Kyriotate with lots of Corporeal Forces became, for the > duration, very strong and tough. I recall there was a debate on > the list about whether a strong human possessed by a wimpy Kyrio > became wimpy, or whether the Kyrio could use the host's strength. > (I don't recall the answer.) When I played a Shedite last semester, Perry had me use my corpstats regardless of the corpstats of the host. Otherwise, what's the point of giving Shedim and Kyriotates Corporeal Forces at all? :) Like I said, I don't have the core book here, so I can't reference that. The more I think about it, though, the more I want to say that yes, the need for basic biological functions (save breathing) is suspended when a Kyrio enters a body. > Earl - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:04:52 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Walter Milliken wrote: > Actually, this is contrary to canon -- Kyrio and Shedite hosts are > treated exactly like vessels for the duration of possession. Again I bow to the master; I've never played a Kyrio, and my Shedite never stayed in one body long enough to find out. :) > ---Walter - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:07:54 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios At 12:00 PM -0500 1/20/99, Walter Milliken wrote: [...] >However, conception >doesn't have to happen at the time of the sexual act, if I recall >correctly -- there's a period of something like a couple of days that >the sperm are viable. Yup. >I'm not sure what the implications are for male hosts.... I guess I'd >rule that sperm outside the host would be normal, so conception from >intercourse with a Kyrio-possessed male would be possible. Sperm are constantly being produced by normal humans, and stored up. Even if the sperm being produced *during the possession* are sterile or not produced at all, the sperm produced *before* the possession will still work. This is why someone getting a vasectomy needs to be careful for a few days -- the sperm are still viable, after the operation. (And a neutered tom can still sire kittens, for a few days.) >The IPG (I think) discusses the related "incubus/succubus trick" [...] Yes. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:02:12 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios At 4:08 PM +0000 1/20/99, CA Smith wrote: >A few points > >Can Kyrios get (someone) pregnant?, all of the other choirs are unable to >have children without the use of the song of fertility. They could probably use *Corporeal* Fruition on themselves... Otherwise, a physical problem with pregnancy is a physical problem with pregnancy, possessed or not. (My spayed cat will not get pregnant whether or not the Kyrio goes out looking for toms.) >Also would the child, if it can happen, be wholey human? Yes, if both parents were. >Aren't the >nephalim the result of angels (grigori) and humans having children and >whilst possessed the host of a Kyrio has little difference to an angel of >another choir in a vessel Except that it *is* human, and will be human after the Kyrio leaves. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:13:26 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Eating and the result (Re: RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios) At 12:18 PM -0500 1/20/99, Perestroika wrote: [...] >plane) looks, feels, and sounds human, and can pass closely enough for >human to make no nevermind, but it doesn't need to eat, drink, excrete, >or reproduce, and so it doesn't. (A Celestial can, of course, eat, but >why would it excrete or reproduce? In our campaigns, if a celestial eats, it must excrete later. (The mass/liquid of the food has to go *somewhere*...) And if they don't eat, they don't have to excrete. >Now, a Kyriotate inhabiting a human is exactly that - for all intents >and purposes, human. The body does, IMW, need to eat, drink, sleep, and >excrete, and just because it's being possessed doesn't mean its sexual >organs atrophy, or something like that. :) (In canon, a host is just like a vessel *while the Kyrio is in it* -- but that doesn't mean that the parts that happened before the possession atrophy... They're "on hold," sort of.) >Incidentally, I can see a milennia-old Kyriotate who's developed fine >enough control over its hosts that it can manipulate individual ova, Eeeeek! Not canon, not canon... >> if so Kyrios of Eli had better be -very- careful > >Well, all Kyrios had better be very careful. :) Always. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 13:29 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >How would it be if GURPS IN characters start out as >real weakinglings, but with a largish pool of points >wherewith to buy "advantages" called "Corporeal Force," >"Ethereal Force," or "Celestial Force," in discrete levels >to mimic the granularity of IN Forces? Then each such >level is good for increased levels of Strong Will, Alertness, >Intelligence, Strength, Toughness, etc. That would be a semi-viable approach if GURPS IN was totally stand-alone, but it doesn't fix the problem that regular GURPS characters moved into GURPS IN wouldn't work. As I understand it, this is the main objection to the requirement of adding new stats to "normal" characters, and I'm in total agreement with this. A normal GURPS human from GURPS should be a perfectly reasonable normal human in GURPS IN (and vice versa), without requiring any tinkering. Any approach that doesn't preserve this is not even in the running. It may be *barely* feasible to add a new derived stat (like Fatigue is). And leveled (dis-)advantages are OK, but they can't be something "everyone just has". At most, one can add a default "derived stat" for something and put modifying (dis-)advantages on it, which is part of my current approach to the Forces problem. But it's ugly. There's a point where slavish adherence to the game mechanics of another system adds more complexity than it's worth. The main goal of GURPS IN is to preserve the general feel of IN, without necessarily copying the details exactly. As a secondary goal, I'm trying to preserve as much compatibility with the IN books as possible, so that they'll make sense if used with GURPS IN. Preserving IN mechanics is *very* low on the priority list, except where they have a big impact on the game world. Forces (mostly) are critical to character generation in IN, and have various secondary effects on mechanics in various places. But very few of the mechanics they affect are critically-dependent on Forces *as a game mechanic*. Yeah, the reasoning behind some of the effects does depend on Forces, but I think I can preserve most of that without having to make Forces an explicit mechanic in GURPS IN. So Forces will become more of a background thing, and less of a mechanic. Or so it looks at the moment. I started out trying to preserve them, but got mired in all sorts of quagmires very quickly. One place I am explicitly preserving them is in the effects on Songs. Some people are significantly better (or worse) at one realm of Songs than the other two, and that has fairly significant game-world consequences. So I'm currently covering this with an advantage/disad pair for each realm. This may eventually evolve back into a full-blown notion of Forces... I don't know yet. I haven't really tackled most of the stuff that Forces affect most (Songs and attunements); I'll know better how things are working when I get further into the Superior conversions. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:05:33 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Walter Milliken wrote: > Obviously I need to get enough of this stuff in done-enough shape to > post on Pyramid for preliminary playtest.... Now that I'm over my cold, > I may have the energy to finish up the basic mechanics for celestial > characters. Why? It's much more fun to just pester you with annoying questions. I have to be a responsible adult the rest of the time at work [checks to make sure no one is reading this over his shoulder], so it's nice to be able to act like a four-year old. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:00:22 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> ADMIN: Strange Bouncebacks I'm de-subscr!bing everyone whose email address showed up on these weird bounces. I'm not sure why they're happening... But I'll try to find out. - --Beth, List Admin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 15:30 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >> Obviously I need to get enough of this stuff in done-enough shape to >> post on Pyramid for preliminary playtest.... Now that I'm over my cold, >> I may have the energy to finish up the basic mechanics for celestial >> characters. > >Why? It's much more fun to just pester you with annoying questions. Only for you.... Some amount of discussion of this stuff *is* useful to me, but a lot of it is re-hashing ground I've already covered, unfortunately. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:27:20 -0800 (PST) From: Ethan Ace Subject: IN> A couple of things to watch/read. Hey y'all. A couple of things for inspiration. First off, Millenium. Besides being the best show on TV, its also chock-full of adventure ideas. Just about every episode can be written up and adapted quite easily. I like to think of Frank Black as a Grigori. Second, we have Hellboy. Excellent comic. He's an excellent character, and a perfect example of what a Renegade could be. I plan on working in a character strangely similar to him, if my players ever get off their bums and get around to playing. Thanks. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:42:32 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios CA Smith wrote: > Can Kyrios get (someone) pregnant?, all of the other choirs are unable to > have children without the use of the song of fertility. > If they can why is a person being posessed by a Kyrio more likely to become > pregant? > if so Kyrios of Eli had better be -very- careful > Also would the child, if it can happen, be wholey human? Aren't the > nephalim the result of angels (grigori) and humans having children and > whilst possessed the host of a Kyrio has little difference to an angel of > another choir in a vessel APG, Kyrios' -hosts- can get someone pregnant, that's all. The baby, no matter if the Kyrio is 'mother' or 'father' will be a human (although they say many grow up to become Soldiers). Grigori were Celestials in celestial-made Vessels, a Kyrio is just an angel in a human body. Now - -I- wonder if Shedim children grow up to become Soldiers of Hell... The Grigori were apparently a special case, so far removed from the Divine that they were akin to humans in ways that even Mercurians are not. - - Abracax, Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:50:50 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Walter Milliken wrote: > I'm happy enough with Fatigue = Essence. Humans needed a little more > edge in IN, anyway. This gives it to them. > > ---Walter I do wonder about that. -Why- do humans need any sort of edge? We're dealing with angels and demons here, classically -very- powerful entities. Humans IMO, shouldn't 'rate' compared to Celestials. Celestials need humans so as not to disturb the Symphony when they need things done (also to guide, corrupt, redeem, or what have you), but a human just shouldn't compare in most ways to beings that are potentially thousands upon thousands of years old or that oversee certain aspects of the Symphony (the Word-Bound). Even lesser Celestials should probably outclass humans in at least -one- major area, depending on said Celestial. Why was it felt that humans needed such an edge? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:56:56 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Walter Milliken wrote: > > [EDG:] > >Now, a Kyriotate inhabiting a human is exactly that - for all intents > >and purposes, human. The body does, IMW, need to eat, drink, sleep, and > >excrete, and just because it's being possessed doesn't mean its sexual > >organs atrophy, or something like that. :) > > Actually, this is contrary to canon -- Kyrio and Shedite hosts are > treated exactly like vessels for the duration of possession. Quite so, this leads to some of my favourite 'Nasty Shedite Tricks' (yes, by now you all know that's my favourite Band, when Elohim and Malakim come up, I'll become more verbose about the Choirs). When a host doesn't need to eat or sleep 'running it into the ground' takes on a whole new meaning. While all the host's human associates are asleep, the Shedite quietly heads off with a free -eight hours- of mischief to perform. This is great for an alibi since 'There's no way Phil could have done -that-, he would have had to have been up for 72 hours straight to find the time.' - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:02:25 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Walter Milliken wrote: > >That's how we're working it. [Rites and daily essence] are the *only* >ways celestials gain fatigue/Essence, other than getting it from someone >else (deliberate transfers or Impudite resonance). > > [Songs in GURPS IN] > >Mostly they'll be linked to magic spells, and will use the standard >magic mechanics in GURPS. You realize, of course, that this means that an angel or demon will be *less* capable of supernatural feats than a standard GURPS magician, because they regenerate Essence /very slowly/? I for one think this is an extremely silly result. If you want to keep blatant, showy effects out of GURPS IN, you should use a variation of the GURPS Voodoo magic system rather than using the regular magic system and starving characters for Fatigue. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 16:06 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... > Even lesser Celestials should probably >outclass humans in at least -one- major area, depending on said >Celestial. Why was it felt that humans needed such an edge? "Edge" was maybe the wrong word -- "increased importance" perhaps. The fact that humans are chock-full of Essence will make them more interesting to celestials (and more exploited, probably). In any sort of combat situation, humans are still crunchies, since they still have a lot less *stored* Essence than celestials, and they won't have time to regenerate it. Nor can they perform feats that take lots of Essence (of which there will be some -- the Judgment attunement that generates the sword (whose name escapes me at the moment) will be out of reach for most humans, for example. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:06:38 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: IN> A couple of things to watch/read. On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Ethan Ace wrote: > Hey y'all. A couple of things for inspiration. > > First off, Millenium. Besides being the best show on TV, Urrrrrrrgh. Aggggh. Mmmmmph. Uggggh. Aggggh. Although I did like the high-school shooting sequence. Oh, and the show with the demons in the late-night coffee joint. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:15:46 -0600 From: Don Durham Subject: IN> Distinctions This probably an obvious question, but I'll ask it anyway. As one is 'promoted' in levels of distinction, does the servitor retain the abilities of the previous level? I'd quote examples, but my books are at home. Thanks Don Durham arthurd@io.com Looking to buy/sell/trade a Gurps Book? Check out: http://www.io.com/~arthurd/gurps_files/oop ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:24:14 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Distinctions At 3:15 PM -0600 1/20/99, Don Durham wrote: >This probably an obvious question, but I'll ask it anyway. > >As one is 'promoted' in levels of distinction, does the servitor retain the >abilities of the previous level? p. 156: "The distinctions are granted in order; a Prince will not grant his second-level distinction (usually Captain) without first granting the first-level one (usually Knight)." IOW, yes. They keep the first, but are always addressed by the title of the highest Distinction they've gotten. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:24:15 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Distinctions On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Don Durham wrote: > As one is 'promoted' in levels of distinction, does the servitor > retain the abilities of the previous level? I'd quote examples, but > my books are at home. Yes. Characters with second and third level distinctions retain their lower level distintions and are described solely by their highest distinction to save space. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 16:29 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >> [Songs in GURPS IN] >> >>Mostly they'll be linked to magic spells, and will use the standard >>magic mechanics in GURPS. > >You realize, of course, that this means that an angel or demon will >be *less* capable of supernatural feats than a standard GURPS magician, >because they regenerate Essence /very slowly/? To some extent -- excluding "free" resonance and attunement effects -- that's true. And the answer is... Standard GURPS magicians don't *belong* in IN. They don't fit the background. In games where "normal" magic is present, the need to limit celestials to what they can do in the standard IN background is removed, and I'll recommend that GM's remove that regeneration limitation from the celestial "racial" base. The only "standard" GURPS magic that will be present in the "canon" GURPS IN campaign will be some equivalent of IN Sorcery, which will probably mostly be limited to a few necromantic spells. (Elizabeth wrote this up -- I don't remember all the details.) Soldiers *can* function like GURPS mages, and use lots of Essence over a day, but they're still weaker in combat (they have lower Fatigue stats). And using Essence still makes noise, and may draw enemy celestials, which isn't necessarily a good idea.... Also, Soldiers don't get a lot of access to Songs in canon IN, and they're limited to corporeal ones, so there's some GM control on how nasty they get, by limiting what they're allowed to learn and how they get it. Note that the regular list of GURPS spells is not necessarily available to *anyone* in a canon GURPS IN campaign. Songs will be done *like* spells, without necessarily opening up the campaign to the whole breadth of GURPS Magic, which was designed for high-fantasy campaigns. In many cases, Songs will probably be re-labeled GURPS Magic/Grimoire spells, just to keep the number of similar mechanics in GURPS from growing without bound. But they'll be specific to the IN campaign, without necessarily inheriting GURPS Magic prereqs, the college system, or any of the related stuff. And they'll have realm affiliations just like they do in regular IN. >I for one think this is an extremely silly result. It would be, if we allowed it. But that's endemic to mis-mixing genres in GURPS. GURPS IN actually has two separate audiences: 1) People who want to play In Nomine with GURPS mechanics 2) People who want celestials in another GURPS campaign background In the discussions on this list, I've been mostly concentrating on 1). There need to be some minor variations in how celestials work for case 2), for exactly the reason you bring up. One of the sidebars I'm going to write covers the interaction of celestial powers, psi, magic, and super powers, and how this varies by campaign. >If you want to keep blatant, showy effects out of GURPS IN, you should >use a variation of the GURPS Voodoo magic system rather than using the >regular magic system and starving characters for Fatigue. The human "mages" (=Sorcerors) will be doing something like that, since IN sorcery is similar, though we'll probably use the regular GURPS Magic spells for spirit summoning, binding, etc. (A variant using the Voodoo rules might be added, but right now it's not clear if we'll even have room for Sorcery rules at all.) But Songs in IN behave almost exactly like regular GURPS Magic spells, and not at all like the GURPS Voodoo system. So using the regular GURPS spell system for them is perfectly appropriate. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:40:56 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> A couple of things to watch/read. On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Ethan Ace wrote: > Hey y'all. A couple of things for inspiration. [snippity-snip snip] Good choices. I would add the following: The Punisher (Marvel Knights Limited Series). Think of Frank Castle as an amnesiac Saint of War, and read the series. No spoilers here. Crimson #7. The Sarim descend on a single vampire, and Michael shows off one of the coolest swords in existence. Also, several Archangels get "Old Testament" on some sinners. Oh My Goddess. If you've read it, you already see the parallels. If you haven't, then go get any of the issues. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:52:52 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Pregnancy & Kyrios >>>Can Kyrios get (someone) pregnant?, all of the other choirs are unable to have children without the use of the song of fertility. <<< That's because they are using celestial vessels, whereas a Kyriotate is simply "borrowing" a fully human body. >>>If they can why is a person being posessed by a Kyrio more likely to become pregant? <<< It isn't _more_ likely -- the odds are the same as someone not being possessed by a Kyriotate. >>>Also would the child, if it can happen, be wholey human?<<< Presumably, since theoretically the child's genes have no celestial tampering in them at all. But maybe many humans with a natural 6 Forces were conceived with a little angelic help? Who knows....? >>>Aren't the nephalim the result of angels (grigori)<<< Yes. >>>and humans having children and whilst possessed the host of a Kyrio has little difference to an angel of another choir in a vessel<<< That's not entirely correct -- mechanically, the host of a Kyriotate is treated as a celestial vessel, but it's still a mortal body. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:53:12 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: IN> Nephallim When do we get to see stuff on the Nephallim? In more than one place, especially in the Songs of Fruition, we see references to the children of humans and celestials as the monstrous Nephallim. What does monstrous mean? I'm reminded of an episode of the X-files I saw with a Nephallim girl in it. She was retarded, could barely walk due to a deformed skeletal structure, and had extra fingers on each hand. When are we going to see canon on this? Are the Nephallim intrinsically evil? I doubt it, if some of them are the offspring of angels. Have any of you come up with any cool Neph ideas for your own campaigns? Just wondering, Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:21:53 -0500 From: "Sheep Boy" Subject: RE: IN> Nephallim BillionSix@aol.com writeth: > Have any of you come up with any cool Neph > ideas for your > own campaigns? If you want some badass Nephilim in your campaign, I'd have to recommend the RPG "Nephilim" from Chaosium, Inc. I hadn't really considered In Nomine Nephilim in preparation for my campaign, I couldn't think of how to handle them, and I felt I was obviously being baited by reading them in the core book. ;) But I picked up this game a few weeks ago, and ever since reading it, I think Nephilim are going to play a MUCH larger role IMW. I'm not really big on doing conversions, so systems might be a bit of a bear, and the histories as they are written are certainly not compatible. (The Tyrannosaur Prophet-King Mu of the sentient lizard people, for example.) But the game book itself is certainly rich in ideas, and you can treat it simply as a writeup of the Nephilim as a race, if you like. IMC, they're going to turn into a major force on Earth, not necessarily in the War, but you can't be a major force on Earth and not _affect_ the War. :) (See, I used an 'a.' ;) In a nutshell, Chaosium Nephilim are like "good" Shedim. But rather than jump from host to host, they get reincarnated, taking with them the skills and memories (most of the time) from their previous lives. This usually makes them influential political forces with great insight into humanity. I'll expand in private e-mail if you like, but the bottom line is that I heartily recommend the book if you would like Nephilim to be major players IYC. - Stavro +-stavro@crackden.org-------------------------ICQ#18493910-+ | "Cinema, simulated life and trauma | | Birthright, culture, Americana" | | - Rage Against the Machine, "No Shelter" | +----------------http://www.crackden.org/------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:31:37 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: RE: IN> Nephallim On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Sheep Boy wrote: > BillionSix@aol.com writeth: > > Have any of you come up with any cool Neph > > ideas for your > > own campaigns? > > If you want some badass Nephilim in your campaign, I'd have to recommend the > RPG "Nephilim" from Chaosium, Inc. Also note that the Nephilim of that game are nothing like the Nephallim of IN. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:41:36 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: RE: IN> Nephallim > This usually makes them influential political forces with great insight into > humanity. I'll expand in private e-mail if you like, but the bottom line is > that I heartily recommend the book if you would like Nephilim to be major > players IYC. Hell, I recommend Nephilim from Chaosium just in general. The main book and the followup sourcebooks are fabulously well written. And the bottom line is: there is no place else where you are going to get cooler names and descriptions for spells and summonings. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:55:26 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: RE: IN> Nephallim (going off-topic for a short moment) On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Emily Dresner wrote: > > > This usually makes them influential political forces with great insight into > > humanity. I'll expand in private e-mail if you like, but the bottom line is > > that I heartily recommend the book if you would like Nephilim to be major > > players IYC. > > Hell, I recommend Nephilim from Chaosium just in general. The main book > and the followup sourcebooks are fabulously well written. And the bottom > line is: there is no place else where you are going to get cooler names > and descriptions for spells and summonings. Except possibly Tunnels and Trolls - not much beats "Take That You Fiend" as a name for a spell. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:50:39 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Nephallim BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > When do we get to see stuff on the Nephallim? In more than one > place, especially in the Songs of Fruition, we see references to > the children of humans and celestials as the monstrous Nephallim. > What does monstrous mean? The Bible passage that the legends of the nephilim are based on is "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. ... There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." -- Genesis 6:1-5 The "nephilim" are the "giants," and are generally equated with the "mighty men" of semi-divine blood. In general, this is the analog, in the Bible, of the tales of demigods in pagan myth. Such folk are often supposed to be taller and grander than the inferior brand of ordinary human you get nowadays. Also, the heroes and the giants and monsters tend to have the same family trees -- with gods in. In the apochryphal books of Enoch, the nephilim are depicted as giants who nearly wipe out the human race, first by eating all the food, then by starting in on the humans. What SJG will do with "Nephalim" and their cousins, the Children of the Grigori, I have no inside info on. But that's the source material. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:46:04 +0000 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios Archangel Beth sic scripsit: > > At 12:00 PM -0500 1/20/99, Walter Milliken wrote: > >I'm not sure what the implications are for male hosts.... I guess I'd > >rule that sperm outside the host would be normal, so conception from > >intercourse with a Kyrio-possessed male would be possible. > > Sperm are constantly being produced by normal humans, and stored up. > Even if the sperm being produced *during the possession* are sterile > or not produced at all, the sperm produced *before* the possession > will still work. > > This is why someone getting a vasectomy needs to be careful for a > few days -- the sperm are still viable, after the operation. (And > a neutered tom can still sire kittens, for a few days.) It's more like a case of a few *months* for men after vasectomies, although most of the risk is gone after a month or thenabouts. Be seeing you... David. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:22:54 -0500 From: Adam Canning Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 12:04 EST >From: Walter Milliken >The other problem is the difference between 5-Force humans (25-point >GURPS "normals") and 6-Force humans (which I assume standard 100-point >GURPS "hero-material" characters are). >For the curious, I currently have celestial base stats at 14 across the >board. Which would appear to make Forces = Average of stats -5 IE Normal humans stats 10 Soldiers base stats 11 [40 cp worth, few players will spend less on a 100cp character] Pleb 7 force demons and mummies 12 [tougher than humans but still in thier range] Beginning Lilim and Angels, etc 14 [roughly human first stage Lensmen or senior Arthurian Knights.] Zombies average stat 8-9 [mostly missing from int it would appear] Max human 15 forcers at an average of 20 [this is roughly human second stage Lensmen characteristic levels] Admittedly that makes 18 forcers average stat 23 [roughly velantian second stage Lensmen levels] On the bottom end a 1 force creature would have average stats of 6 [poor battered creature.] which migth be just a little high but not excessively so. Most things this bad in Gurps are given monster writeups rather than character sheets. Crude but no stat translation will be less than crude. Adam "I have been thinking, thinking about thought" Worsel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:02:19 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Adam Canning wrote: > Which would appear to make Forces = Average of stats -5 > > IE Normal humans stats 10 > Soldiers base stats 11 [40 cp worth, few players will spend less on a 100cp > character] > Pleb 7 force demons and mummies 12 [tougher than humans but still in thier > range] > Beginning Lilim and Angels, etc 14 [roughly human first stage Lensmen or > senior Arthurian Knights.] > Zombies average stat 8-9 [mostly missing from int it would appear] > Max human 15 forcers at an average of 20 [this is roughly human second > stage Lensmen characteristic levels] > Admittedly that makes 18 forcers average stat 23 [roughly velantian second > stage Lensmen levels] Sounds pretty good to me. It will mean that there are some seven-force Soldiers - having average 12 isn't impossible for a 100pt character - but I think that's acceptable. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:59:24 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> RE: Pregnancy & Kyrios David.Evans wrote: > > This is why someone getting a vasectomy needs to be careful for a > > few days -- the sperm are still viable, after the operation. (And > > a neutered tom can still sire kittens, for a few days.) > > It's more like a case of a few *months* for men after vasectomies, > although most of the risk is gone after a month or thenabouts. Are you sure about that? When I got a vesectomy, my doctor told me that I might still have viable sperm for a week or two, but certainly not months. (Not that I had _any_ urge to check things out there for a few weeks, and I could walk in a straight line again...) - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Journalism is not a profession or a trade. It is a cheap catch-all for fuckoffs & misfits - a false doorway to the backside of life, a filthy piss-ridden little hole nailed off by the building inspector, but just deep enough for a wino to curl up from the sidewalk and masturbate like a chimp in a zoo-cage. HUNTER S. THOMPSON, "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1102 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.