From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jan 21 16:39:53 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22526 for ; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:39:47 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id QAA12553 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:37:18 -0600 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:37:18 -0600 Message-Id: <200001212237.QAA12553@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1505 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, January 21 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1505 In this digest: Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names RE: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming IN> Superiors 2 and 3 IN> ADMIN: The List Has Been Restricted! Fwd: IN> Tyche, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy Fwd: Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names Fwd: Re: IN> Infinity Re: IN> Superiors 2 and 3 Re: IN> ADMIN: The List Has Been Restricted! Re: IN> Grigori Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: Casting out the Grigori (was: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming) Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Fwd: RE: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names Re: IN> ADMIN: The List Has Been Restricted! Re: Casting out the Grigori (was: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming) Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names Re: Fwd: IN> Tyche, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Superiors 2 and 3 Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names Re: IN> Lilim are Demons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:15:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names At 12:02 AM +1100 1/22/00, Azrael wrote: >What is to stop a Seraph saying >"You can call me " [...] Absolutely nothing stops them, and indeed, I'd consider that this is a _very_ standard way Seraphim introduce themselves. Or even, "Please call me ." Or "Oh, call me -- it's how most people know me these days." Or "I go by ." Most of these work best if the Seraph is using a name that's obviously a diminuative -- for instance, I go by Beth online. Only fencing teachers are allowed to call me Liz. Sometimes I get called McCoy. Non-online friends call me Elizabeth (which is the main name on the birth cert.). I also go by "Archangel" -- often in the third person speaking of myself! ("Poor Archangel hungry!" (don't get me low on blood sugar)) Then there was my grandfather, who went by "Jack" when the name he signed was "C.P. Cayce" -- where C.P. stood for "Clarence Perry." (My grandmother says that when they got married, the priest went, "And do you, Clarence Perry..." and she was going, "Who's _that_?") So a Seraph who has to introduce itself a lot should pick a name that's pretty clearly a diminuative -- or a diminuative of the one on their driver's license! Or say "Call me X" and if asked "Is that your name," the Seraph can say "No" and show his driver's license with a grimace. (So the viewer thinks, "Thaddeus Cesar... Poor guy." And says, "Weird parents you have there, Fred.") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:33:31 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Then there was my grandfather, who went by "Jack" when the name he > signed was "C.P. Cayce" -- where C.P. stood for "Clarence Perry." C. S. Lewis, whom I've mentioned so many times, as does the IN main book bibliography, was named "Clive Staples," but, at the age of four, announced that he was to be called "Jack." His family, having gotten over whatever possessed them to name him "Clive," all agreed, and he was known as "Jack" to anyone who got to a more intimate form of address than "Lewis." As Bertie Wooster remarked on learning that the first name of his foe du jour was "Lemuel" -- "By God, Jeeves, there's some raw work done at the [baptismal] font!" "Indeed, sir." All of which makes me consider the possibility of a Sheddite Demon of Names, probably a minor but thriving serivtor of either Kronos or Kobal. ("You named her *what*? Whatever possessed you?") Earl (whose own names have rather a lot of baggage attached to them) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:35:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Richard Gant wrote: > > (In the campaign I play in, the children of Grigori fathers are > > the nephalim, but are construed as demi-gods, not monsters. > > The children of Grigori *mothers* founded the race of djinn -- > > as in the genies of the Arabian Nights, not the demonic band.) > > Interesting. Similar to some of my ideas. Okay, spill. What are these ideas? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:22:20 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names From: "Earl Wajenberg" > > As Bertie Wooster remarked on learning that the first name of his > foe du jour was "Lemuel" -- "By God, Jeeves, there's some raw work > done at the [baptismal] font!" Heh... This reminds me of the baby who was baptised "Spindona," when the priest in question misheard the answer "It's pinned on her" when asking what the baby's name was... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:39:34 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names Earl Wajenberg wrote: > All of which makes me consider the possibility of a Sheddite Demon > of Names, probably a minor but thriving serivtor of either Kronos > or Kobal. ("You named her *what*? Whatever possessed you?") IIRC, Sweden or one of the other Scandinavian countries actually passed a law against afflicting one's offspring with weird/stupid names. I'm not sure exactly how the law defines a "weird or stupid" name, mind you. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:57:26 -0800 From: Steven Feldon Subject: RE: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names It's quite simple, actually: They have a list. You can't name your child something that's not on the list. If you do, you pay a fine every year until you change it, and the child can sue you for more when they reach majority. NPR thought it was amusing enough to do a story on it about a year ago. steve - -----Original Message----- From: David Edelstein [mailto:AmadanSJG@compuserve.com] Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 1:40 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names Earl Wajenberg wrote: > All of which makes me consider the possibility of a Sheddite Demon > of Names, probably a minor but thriving serivtor of either Kronos > or Kobal. ("You named her *what*? Whatever possessed you?") IIRC, Sweden or one of the other Scandinavian countries actually passed a law against afflicting one's offspring with weird/stupid names. I'm not sure exactly how the law defines a "weird or stupid" name, mind you. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:13:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > > (In the campaign I play in, the children of Grigori fathers are > > > the nephalim, but are construed as demi-gods, not monsters. > > > The children of Grigori *mothers* founded the race of djinn -- > > > as in the genies of the Arabian Nights, not the demonic band.) > > > > Interesting. Similar to some of my ideas. > > Okay, spill. What are these ideas? Well, I really disliked the idea that the pagan gods are products of human imagination and are sustained by human belief. I get enough of that in Planescape, and I wanted a clearer cut theology and cosmology for In Nomine. So I ruled that the pagan gods are Outcast Angels, Renegade Demons, sorcerers attempting to escape their Fates by hiding out in the Marches and trying to live forever, or Nephilim with a superiority complex. There *are* Etherial spirits created from and sustained by human belief, but they are typically weak and no match for the "gods". Furthermore, Nephilim are a little different in my campaign. The children of the Grigori (as well as any Human/Celestial crossbreeds from the Song of Fruition) are Nephilim, but not necessarily monstrous. They have greater powers and abilities than normal humans (including a limited ability to unconsciously manipulate Forces, intuitive understanding of certain Songs, conscious control over Essence, and the ability to hear the Symphony), but run the risk of acquiring Discords if they push those powers too far or too long. They have a Fate and a Destiny and, like normal humans, the ability to choose freely between them. Unfortunatly, they have a history of power-madness and tending towards their Fates which has given Heaven a fairly dim view of the Nephilim as a group (they're judged on a case-by-case basis, but are handled with the same degree of care and caution a demon claiming to seek redemption would receive). Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:43:16 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming Richard Gant wrote: > Furthermore, Nephilim are a little different in my campaign. The > children of the Grigori (as well as any Human/Celestial crossbreeds > from the Song of Fruition) are Nephilim, but not necessarily > monstrous. They have greater powers and abilities than normal > humans [...] Unfortunatly, they have a history of power-madness > and tending towards their Fates which has given Heaven a fairly dim > view of the Nephilim as a group[...] This is rather the way things are done in our campaign (which is not In Nomine, but is straying toward celestial matters). The first generation of nephilim, with celestial fathers, were the Elder Gods. Their children were the Younger Gods (like Titans vs. Olympians, or Tiamat vs. Marduk). The following generations were mere demi-gods, like Achilles, though they could be given apotheosis by their parents, like Heracles. Then there are the mazzikim, a.k.a. djinn, the ones with the celestial mothers. They correspond to the primeval monsters -- the Jotuns and Giants -- in their first generations, before the settle down to being genies, ifrits, and peries. The whole lot ran ragged over the infant human race, causing the Powers That Be to scourge them off the Earth, using the Flood as one instrument. Some retreated to Faerie and survived, and a few of them returned to Earth, but they tread very warily. They don't know if the Powers haven't noticed, or if they are simply suffered to hang around as long as they keep their heads down. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:42:15 -0600 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: IN> Superiors 2 and 3 when are Superior's 2 and 3 coming out? I know 3 just ended playtest at the turn of the year, but it's been a while since 2 and I can't wait to see the artwork for Kobal and Nybbas...and Andre - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" Who desperately wants to see his name in lights (I.e. a playtest credit he hopes) ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:08:54 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> ADMIN: The List Has Been Restricted! Okay, the list is now restricted. This means that you _MUST_ post from an address that is _exactly_ the one you're s u b s c r i b e d with! However! We also have the approved poster's list. To get onto this, send email to: With the body of the message containing: s u b s c r i b e in_nomine_posters-l desired@address.here (Where the s u b-etc. word is compressed into the actual word!) Then wait about 30 minutes, and you'll be able to post! Now, since spammers aren't going to s u b to this list, they'll all bounce! I'll be forwarding some bounced messages. If your ISP adds random machine names, just s u b s c r i b e them all, as above. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:11:34 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: IN> Tyche, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy >Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:49:43 -0800 (PST) >From: David Barr >Reply-To: daiv@cruzio.com >Subject: IN> Tyche, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy > >TYCHE, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy, Offanite Of the Wind > >"You're What?!" > >Corporeal 3 strength 4 agility 8 >Ethereal 4 Intelligence 7 precision 9 >Celestial 4 Will 8 Perception 8 > > > >Rites; Replace a prophylactic (including the Pill) with an >ineffective version (or placebo) (+1 Essence) > >Attunements; Offanite of the Wind, Passage > >Songs; Shields (all, 3), charm (all 3) Movement (all 6), Healing >(all, 4) > >Vessel 4, Role 2 (20something motorcycle chick) > >Skills; Driving (motorcycle) 4, Lock picking 6, Pick pocketing 4, >Knowledge (birth control methods) 4, Knowledge Medicine (ob/gyn) 4, >Move Silently 4, Dodge 4, Fast Talk 3. > >"But...But...you are on the Pill!" > > >Tyche is a servant of the divine wind. She rides from city to city, >sowing divine chaos in her wake. Early in her career, she found that >there are few methods of disrupting peoples lives more effective than >giving them a baby that the were not expecting. With the (relatively) >recent rise in availability and acceptance of birth control in the >USA, she has taken to replacing Birth control pills with placebo. She >has also found that there are a number of ways to circumvent >prophylactic methods. >She does not, as a rule, stand in particular conflict with Either of >the Angels of Abortion*; once the pregnancy takes place, her word is >served. The chaos that follows comes from the choices that people >make when they are faced with circumstances that they did not expect, >or, as often as not, with circumstances that they very explicitly >planned not to have (She takes special pleasure in listening to >couples planning their future, and specifically planning on not >having children, for what she believes to be selfish reasons. In >those cases, she will go to extra efforts to make sure conception >takes place.) >She is designed to be a low level worded angel. >Use her as you see fit. >*The angels of abortion (for and against, actual words escape me) are >the creation of David Edelstein, written and posted to the list >several months ago. I do not know if he has put them anywhere other >than here, else I would post a link). > >An resemblance between the events that she might be responsible for >in this authors real life are strictly intentional. No, really. >Unexpected is NOT unwanted. And plans suck. :=) > > > > > > >===== >reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com > >haiku prophecy >see seventeen syllables >into the future > >-Daiv >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:11:35 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names >Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:09:00 -0800 (PST) >From: David Barr >Reply-To: daiv@cruzio.com >Subject: Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names > > >Also, see the Mel Brooks Method. > > "Most people call me Jim, but you can call me...Jim." > >(Gene wilder as the Waco Kid in Blazing Saddles) > >Which, as a straight quote, a seraph could easily get away with. Just >needs to keep his concepts of Human People and Angel people distinct >and discreet. > >> At 12:02 AM +1100 1/22/00, Azrael wrote: >> >What is to stop a Seraph saying >> >"You can call me " [...] >> >> Absolutely nothing stops them, and indeed, I'd consider that this >> is a _very_ standard way Seraphim introduce themselves. Or even, "Please >> call me ." Or "Oh, call me -- it's how most people >> know me these days." Or "I go by ." >> >> Most of these work best if the Seraph is using a name that's >> obviously a diminuative -- for instance, I go by Beth online. Only fencing >> teachers are allowed to call me Liz. Sometimes I get called McCoy. >> Non-online friends call me Elizabeth (which is the main name on the birth >> cert.). I also go by "Archangel" -- often in the third person speaking of >> myself! ("Poor Archangel hungry!" (don't get me low on blood sugar)) > > >And "Lizzy" is right out, yes? (says a man who has a very SHORT list >of people allowed to call me Davy. It gets shorter as some they die. >(that is not a threat; the list is largely made up of my Great >Aunts.)) >In Real life, the only people who call me by my given name (ie, the >one on my birth certificate) are my parent. In the ten years that we >have been together, my wife has called me David (rather than Daiv) >exactly 8 times, including our wedding. On the other hand, I have met >or heard of a large number of Davids who much prefer to be called >David rather than Dave (spellings vary of course; I go by a Celtic >spelling). >The point is, many Human people (as distinct from Celestial People) >have a number of Names that they are know by, depending on Cultural >Background as well as personal preference. There are a lot of outs >for seraphs who do their research. > >-Daiv > > > > >===== >reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com > >haiku prophecy >see seventeen syllables >into the future > >-Daiv >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:12:09 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> Infinity >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:55:28 -0600 (CST) >From: Benjamin Acosta >Subject: Re: IN> IN: Infinity > >> From: Walter Milliken >> >> Another good book for anyone thinking of time travel or alternate worlds >> is SJGames' GURPS Time Travel. It covers many approaches to the genre >> of time travel and parallel worlds. According to Warehouse23, it's >> still available. > >Speaking of GURPS Time Travel and In Nomine, how about an In >Nomine/Infinity Unlimited Crossover? The Higher Heavens and the Lower >Hells are where the Celestial Realms of all worlds connect. God, Lucifer, >Yves, and Kronos are the only beings who work on a cross-temporal >scale. And The War at the Infinite World Level involves shifting >individual worlds to either the Destiny or Fate Quantum, with the help of >Homeline and Centrum since it's humans who have the power to sway the >Symphony. > >Ben, Elohite of Eli >Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:25:31 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Superiors 2 and 3 At 2:42 PM -0600 1/21/00, Amo Nympham wrote: >when are Superior's 2 and 3 coming out? I know 3 just ended playtest at the >turn of the year, but it's been a while since 2 and I can't wait to see the >artwork for Kobal and Nybbas...and Andre 2 is, last I heard, at the printer's. With _LUCK_, it's generally about a month or so till it gets to distributors. Without luck (such as a printer error, a shipping problem, etc.), it will be longer. Bear in mind that those are my personal estimates, and should not be taken as Official Words -- precisely _because_ there might be problems great or small which could hold up the process, and SJGames _hates_ to sound like they're sloppy by announcing a date and having an accident delay things horribly. >Who desperately wants to see his name in lights (I.e. a playtest credit he >hopes) Playtester list for 2, as of the draft I have, is... Robert Busek, Eric Alfred Burns, Jim Cambias, Emily Dresner, Patrick Duffy, David Edelstein, Ryan Elias, Brook Freeman, Joanna Hart, Owen Kerr, J. Michael Neal, Leath Sheales, and David Summers. Additional Material credits to moi, Walter Milliken, and Bob Schroeck. Congratulations and condolences, depending on if you got mentioned or not... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:27:25 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> ADMIN: The List Has Been Restricted! In response, the cherub locates a Servitor of Orc, Angel of Networks, to forward a DCC packet of Essence to the Arcangel in gratitude for the disappearance of sales-spam from the list. Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- Strange blood, howl again, for now we know to well - Better a friend on paths unknown, than to be alone in hell! "Strange Blood" A Wolfrider's Reflection, by various artists ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:24:40 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Grigori At 17:16 -0500 1/20/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >Just out of curiousity, is there any plan to do anything with these lads in >canon? There is some additional game-mechanics stuff about them in GURPS IN, in anticipation of near-future canon in the main IN line. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:34:01 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori At 11:25 -0500 1/21/00, Jo Hart wrote: >>Note that they were exiled to Earth, and not necessarily actually Outcast. > >I'd thought it was stated somewhere that the whole choir was declared >Outcast. The main book simply says they were exiled, I don't *think* it's actually stated anywhere that they were made Outcasts in the normal sense. Though it might be in the GMG, I suppose. > Just think about what they might have had to have done, to bring >down that sort of punishment ... Mostly reproducing with humans, as I recall. >I'm imagining that for the whole choir to be punished: >a) There maybe weren't that many of them in the first place This is the case in some of the source material, and I think canon may follow this to a degree. >b) Even the ones who didn't take part in the dodgy activity helped hide what >their choirmates had done I don't think this is established one way or the other in canon yet. >c) Anyone who was actually innocent chose to take the same punishment as >their choirmates Possible -- they are supposed to be gregarious. >d) There is always a possibility that they were given a specific task to do >on Earth, as penance But there's nothing on this in canon. And if so, it doesn't necessarily make sense that David's people then hunted them down after their exile. Another possibility e) The Council decided the whole Choir was potentially flawed in an exploitable way, and decided to limit the damage so they didn't become the core of a second Fall. This does raise interesting questions about how sensible God was in creating them in the first place.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:36:59 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons At 18:06 -0500 1/20/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>If a Lilim became a Demon Princess, would she be able to make Lilim? > >No. (Technically undecided, but I know what answer I'd be pushing. >She spays 'em when she makes 'em. Or maybe it _does_ require a human >Force.) And it may be the case that the Lilim DP could make *one* new Lilim -- by contributing her own "Lilim Force". But then she'd no longer be a Lilim.... Hmmm... the conservation principle for Lilim.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:40:04 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Casting out the Grigori (was: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming) At 18:28 -0500 1/20/00, Sam Kington wrote: >For that matter, going off on a tangent here, when all the Grigori were >cast out, what about those of them (there must have been some) that were >in Trauma at the time? *Can* you cast a Traumatised angel out of Heaven, >bearing in mind that they have no vessel at that point? Interesting question -- if you break their Heart, would their Forces be sucked off to Limbo, maybe? Such an effect would allow all sorts of interesting fun with demonic Hearts, though probably only the Superior could break it. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:38:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori Walter Milliken wrote: > > Just think about what they might have had to have done, to bring > >down that sort of punishment ... > > Mostly reproducing with humans, as I recall. Right, and the problem with THAT was that is produced Nephalim, which were monsters (in IN). There some tale, I forget where, Talmud maybe, that tells how astronomically huge the nephilim got, and that they were eating up all the food in the world and clearly ready to start in on the humans. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:41:13 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons Walter Milliken wrote: > And it may be the case that the Lilim DP could make *one* new Lilim > -- by contributing her own "Lilim Force". But then she'd no longer > be a Lilim.... What would she be then? Would she fall apart, or turn into a very large imp with a Word? (*There's* an idea. A child prodigy Superior -- an imp or reliever with a Superior Word, or any Word for that matter. Christopher would love it, if it were a reliever.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:46:43 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori >From: Walter Milliken >> > >Another possibility e) The Council decided the whole Choir was potentially >flawed in an exploitable way, and decided to limit the damage so they >didn't become the core of a second Fall. If that was the case, then why not just kill them? jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:58:28 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori At 16:38 -0500 1/21/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Walter Milliken wrote: > >> > Just think about what they might have had to have done, to bring >> >down that sort of punishment ... >> >> Mostly reproducing with humans, as I recall. > >Right, and the problem with THAT was that is produced Nephalim, >which were monsters (in IN). There some tale, I forget where, >Talmud maybe, that tells how astronomically huge the nephilim got, >and that they were eating up all the food in the world and clearly >ready to start in on the humans. Gee, is everyone *sure* Haagenti is really a Calabite...? I don't think the canon Nephalim are going to be *quite* that drastic. If I recall, there's some stuff somewhere (CPG?) on them which describes them as monstrous in appearance, and *generally* evil in behavior, but not physically huge. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:13:42 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: RE: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names >Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:00:24 -0800 (PST) >From: David Barr >Reply-To: daiv@cruzio.com >Subject: RE: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names > >In light of recent events in my life (see Tyche, angel of unexpected >Pregnancy....) this is an oddly relevant thread to me. One of the >names in contention is Earl. No big deal, right? well the thing is i >have a speech impediment, for the letters R and L; It is most severe >when the two letters are in the same word... >hey! theres a work around for the Seraph naming convention. Since >speaking the Heavenly language is not normally possible for most >angels (ie, those who do not have the appropriate attunements or >whatnot) the answer is "You would not be able to pronounce it. Call >me Bob." >IRL, this actually happens. One of the local Munckins / NPC*s at the >game store is known only as M.C. His real first name is Hebrew, and >no one who does not know the language is able to pronounce it >properly. (Including him, by his own admission; Another work around >for seraphs would be what he said "well, approximately...".) > >--- Steven Feldon wrote: >> It's quite simple, actually: They have a list. You can't name your >> child something that's not on the list. [Overquoting snipped by Beth while forwarding] >-Daiv > > >===== >reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com > >haiku prophecy >see seventeen syllables >into the future > >-Daiv >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:16:23 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> ADMIN: The List Has Been Restricted! At 3:27 PM -0600 1/21/00, Uncle Wolf wrote: >In response, the cherub locates a Servitor of Orc, Angel of Networks, to >forward a DCC packet of Essence to the Arcangel in gratitude for the >disappearance of sales-spam from the list. _And_ the ability to have people who have Address Wonkiness of some flavor or other _still_ be able to contribute. Thanks for the patience... (From the bounces I've already been forwarding, I'm very glad that I didn't do this _before_ we had the in_nomine_posters-l set up, frankly.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:19:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Casting out the Grigori (was: Re: IN> Requested Input & Brainstorming) At 4:40 PM -0500 1/21/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 18:28 -0500 1/20/00, Sam Kington wrote: >>For that matter, going off on a tangent here, when all the Grigori were >>cast out, what about those of them (there must have been some) that were >>in Trauma at the time? *Can* you cast a Traumatised angel out of Heaven, >>bearing in mind that they have no vessel at that point? > >Interesting question -- if you break their Heart, would their Forces be >sucked off to Limbo, maybe? My answer to this (this question came up last night) is: #1: You can't break someone else's Heart (unless you're a Superior who is right there) without a powerful McGuffin, just so I don't have to make rulings on this. #2: I'd think it would depend on if the angel is already in Heaven -- if so, then I'd say breaking their Heart leaves them in Heaven, Traumatized, staring at their Heart-shards. If they haven't gotten to Heaven yet for some reason, then they wind up in Limbo. So if you break a Traumatized Grigori's Heart while he's there, I'd figure you'd then have to wake him up to kick him out. A Superior might be able to inflict a vessel on him and kick him to Earth in a "coma," though, but I really don't want to think about this... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:13:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names > >From: David Barr > >In light of recent events in my life (see Tyche, angel of unexpected > >Pregnancy....) this is an oddly relevant thread to me. One of the > >names in contention is Earl. No big deal, right? well the thing is i > >have a speech impediment, for the letters R and L; It is most severe > >when the two letters are in the same word... I once had a Japanese roommate in college. He addressed me as "Owl." Sort of. Is a seraph able to ditch all the side-stepping if someone authorized by its Superior hands it the ID papers and says, "Your name is Mac"? Ta-da! It's been named. It can say, "My name is Mac" and not flinch. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:15:05 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: Fwd: IN> Tyche, Angel of Unexpected Pregnancy I like the character idea, but shouldn't she have the corporeal song of fruition? It would serve her well (it automaticly gets around birth control if I remember correctly). Also she should probably have a special little power (considering its only 5 Word forces just one and minor), I think an amusing one would be to make home pregnancy tests fail or be inconclusive. Just to add to the suprise. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:20:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, David Edelstein wrote: > > Obviously, I'm dealing with hypotheticals here. The way I see it, Uriel > > *couldn't* stood for such a thing. The decision to punish all the Grigori > > for the actions of the majority would have grated against his Word (at > > least, the way I interpret his Word). I think he'd have been much more > > likely to demand a purification of the Seraphim Council for such an act. > > You're seeing Uriel as being fair, as opposed to just. Well, I've thought about this for a while. I think that Uriel would be fair (as would the other Archangels), or at least as fair as possible (none of the Archangels are infallable, after all) given the information they have and the nature of their Words. But I think that fairness comes from a rather different point of view than ours. Let me try to explain, and see if I make sense. > > Well, yes, God did say he punishes for the "sins of the fathers". But in > > the same verse he also says he blesses those that love and serve him (or > > words to that effect - I don't have a Bible on me). > > Which is a bit contradictory, but that's another discussion. Agreed. And a discussion I don't particularly want to get into. Let's avoid it and concentrate on the game, shall we? :) > The point is, Uriel would have no problem cleansing anyone even > associated with the guilty -- even if they are personally innocent. Yes and no (in my opinion, anyway). In the case of humans, I don't think he'd really worry. He wouldn't actively target the innocent, but he wouldn't act to spare them if he was ordered to (for the sake of an example) kill all the first born children in Egypt. Why? Because, from Uriel's perspective, it's not really important if they live or die. The innocent have either achieved their Destinies (meaning they go to Heaven), or they have not (meaning they get reborn to try again). They aren't *dead*, and Uriel would know this. It's only unjust from the perspctive of humans who don't understand this. (You could also replace Uriel with any other Archangel and et the same argument - I don't think this is unique to any particular Archangel.) In the case of the Grigori, it would only be just if the only Grigori to be punished were those who had sinned, because the perspective is different. Here we have angels being punished because they knowingly went against the commands of either God or the Seraphim Council (I'm not sure which) - punishing the innocent creates a real (not perceived) state change in them that they did not merit. On the other hand, I can see an argument for the innocent Grigori reaping the consequences of the guilty Grigori (although not being *punished* for it - a subtle but real distinction). I'm just not sure if I can phrase it coherently, as it's still gelling. Let's see... The guilty Grigori are obviously going to be punished. No doubt about that. The innocent Grigori (if any) are sent to "wander in the wilderness" as well. Why? Because the Grigori brought the punishment on the choir, only the Grigori can bring redemption to the choir. The innocent Grigori are the hope of the choir, the only ones who can understand the motivations of the guilty Grigori well enough to reach them. They hae to go into exile with their guilty choirmates in order to share their experiences and continue to be able to reach them. I *think* that makes sense. Of course, it's also predicated on the idea that some Grigori weren't guilty. If that's wrong, it renders the whole Grigori part of this discussion meaningless. > > For that matter, how could Dominic have cast out all the Grigori if not > > all of them were guilty? Surely he'd get hammered with dissonance for > > that? > > Not if his judgment was righteous. Biblical righteousness doesn't have > to be fair. I don't think I agree. Biblically, righteousness does get equated with fairness. However, that fairness is from an eternal perspective instead of a mortal perspective. (Besides, doesn't Judgement suffer Dissonance for exacting a penalty greater than the crime merits?) Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:52:05 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Superiors 2 and 3 At 15:42 -0500 1/21/00, Amo Nympham wrote: >when are Superior's 2 and 3 coming out? I know 3 just ended playtest at the >turn of the year, but it's been a while since 2 and I can't wait to see the >artwork for Kobal and Nybbas...and Andre Superiors 2 is listed on the SJGames website as a February release, and this seems reasonable, since it supposedly went to the printer recently. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:01:02 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Uriel and the Grigori At 16:46 -0500 1/21/00, Jo Hart wrote: >>From: Walter Milliken >>> >> >>Another possibility e) The Council decided the whole Choir was potentially >>flawed in an exploitable way, and decided to limit the damage so they >>didn't become the core of a second Fall. > >If that was the case, then why not just kill them? There may have been enough disagreement in the Council about that, such that they were turned loose on Earth to see if they'd improve (with David's people apparently culling the bad apples, at the least...). Essentially the same reason angels don't simply kill all the humans on Earth if they think they're currently ahead on points, and humans appear to be slipping.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:27:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Earthy Seraphic Names On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Is a seraph able to ditch all the side-stepping if someone authorized > by its Superior hands it the ID papers and says, "Your name is > Mac"? Ta-da! It's been named. It can say, "My name is Mac" and > not flinch. Canon or not, I'd always assumed so. If his Vessel is named "Mac", and someone asks his name, he can reply "Mac" while he's wearing that Vessel. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:33:28 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Lilim are Demons >Walter Milliken wrote: > >> And it may be the case that the Lilim DP could make *one* new Lilim >> -- by contributing her own "Lilim Force". But then she'd no longer >> be a Lilim.... > >What would she be then? Would she fall apart, or turn into a >very large imp with a Word? > >(*There's* an idea. A child prodigy Superior -- an imp or reliever >with a Superior Word, or any Word for that matter. Christopher would >love it, if it were a reliever.) > >Earl Hmmm, Lucifer might grant a Word to an Imp or Gremlin. The Seraphim council would probably not grant a Word to a reliever. Assuming of course they aren't all Geased to servitors of Kobal, in which case it would happen and they'd elevate them imediatly. If they grew in actual Forces they would have to fledge. And they'd better start beefing up there actual Forces, unless they want to be beaten into the ground. So if a Lilim removed her Lilith Force and survived then she'd turn into an Imp. She'd have to fledge at that point, having enough Forces and all (I remember a canon decision made, or clarified, that any celestial with the requisite number of Forces has to fledge. No ifs, ands or buts.) Whether she'd fledge into a normal band or one that exemplified her Word would be up to the GM (and may well be undre the former Lilim's control). On the other hand maybe they would just fall appart, but they became a Superior because Lucifer believed they would make a good superior. He might be inclined to preserve them, and I have no doubt he could hold them together (assuming he wanted to). That would probably give them time to become a member of an actual band or there own Word specific ones. I don't think that a Lilim would manage Princehood though, for several reasons. The first is the general difficulties of attaining Superhood while serving a Prince. A Free Lilim has trouble even getting a Word, and may well find themselves destroyed by an existing DP if they start crawling towards that station. Especially one that has a Word that is simular to theres. Not to mention the fact Mommy might not want to risk compition from one of her daughters. Finally Lucifer probably wouldn't allow it because it would force the answer to too many questions about a Lilim's nature and Lilith's nature. If Lucifer was eager to reveil that information he would leave it laying around where (none Balseraph) servitors of Nybbas could find it. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1505 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.