From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Feb 7 17:06:02 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA22606 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:06:01 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA02517 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:04:52 -0600 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:04:52 -0600 Message-Id: <200002072304.RAA02517@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1524 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, February 7 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1524 In this digest: IN> Angels and Languages. Re: IN> Angels and Languages. Re: IN> Angels and Languages. Re: IN> Stone Vessels Re: IN> Stone Vessels Re: IN> Angels and Languages. Re: IN> Angels and Languages. Re: IN> Angels and Languages. IN> La Femme Nikita Re: IN> Angels and Languages. Re: IN> Angels and Languages. Re: IN> Angels and Languages. Re: IN> Angels and Languages. Re: IN> Angels and Languages. Re: IN> Angels and Languages. Re: IN> Angels and Languages. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 12:40:49 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: IN> Angels and Languages. Do celestials have to take the language skill to simulate their age? If you're playing a celestial who was on Earth a thousand years ago, the languages they started off with would differ radically from the languages they currently know. How do you folks handle it? One suggestion from a player was that angels should be able to speak every earthly language, just because of what they are. My stingy GM instincts tell me that if you want to simulate an older angel, take the skills necessary to make the simulation work, but then you end up with an older angel who is weaker than his modern counterparts because he had to toss half a dozen points into language skills. Is there an adequate middle road, or is one of us correct? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 12:44:42 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Languages. Take 1 point in the other languages, maybe 2. Remember that celestials have an average Intelligence of 6, which means that even 1 or 2 in a language means they'll understand it most of the time. Also if you can speak Greek or Latin or anyother dead language ask the GM if its going to matter for the campeign. If it isn't they should just give it to you, its a nifty little trick but its not really going to help that much. If it is going to help then you have to pay for the language (or have one of them be the free language at 3 that celestials get). Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:57:04 -0600 (EST) From: "Derek K." Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Languages. >How do you folks handle it? One suggestion from a player was that angels >should be able to speak every earthly language, just because of what they >are. My stingy GM instincts tell me that if you want to simulate an older >angel, take the skills necessary to make the simulation work, but then you >end up with an older angel who is weaker than his modern counterparts >because he had to toss half a dozen points into language skills. Is there >an adequate middle road, or is one of us correct? My first instinct was "Sure, let them have it, why not?" Then my stingy GM instincts kicked in too. There are a number of benefits to knowning a lot of old languages, and just tossing them out for some one to use . . . hmm. Here's a thought. Make them buy language skills. But give them a bit more leeway - not the straight 1 to 1, every language is different, but perhaps let them buy ancient (and mostly dead) families - a number of the greco-roman area langauges or the like. They still have to pay, but they pay a bit less. Of course,if they start to get too uppity and walk about impressing people with their skills, then there are a number of things that are fun: Have them forgot parts. Just because you're an angel doesn't mean you're infallible. Declare that, while they may have 8 in greco-romance derivatives, that doesn't implay an 8 in each. in fact, the ancient tongue they are trying to speak . . . well, it's just slipped their mind, Damnation. As well, people are going to notice if suddenly some random person on the street is fluent in ancient sumerian. Questions will be asked by the people that care. Bob and Sue might not think much of it, but local demons are going to take the fact that Joe at the Corner Shop seems a bit well versed in languages that no one can speak. "Wow, Mr. Smith, last I heard, Princeton scholars didn't even know what that word meant. Yet you do. Interesting . . . . " Blown cover, blown roles, hell, if you're mean, the attention of a Superior for being too conspicuous. Heh. Of course you could rule that old angels, while having more skills, probably also have more problems, and just justify them having to spend the points in languages by having them take a dissonance or two, or perhaps something like a flaw where they have gained certain styles that are recognizalbe to scholars, or an old enemy, what have you.... But I ramble. > >Ben > Cheers, Derke K. Angel of Anti-spam, in service to Orc and Demon of Networks, Calabite of Technology in service to Kobal. - -- "Eris loves me, this I know, for Discordia tells me so . . . ." -Archangel Beth. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:22:59 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Stone Vessels > >Could a stone vessel of a bird fly? Especially a hummingbird (their > >super-speedy wingflapping would have to be moreso). >I suppose one could argue that the extraordinary Strength of a celestial >would allow them to generate enough power to make a stone bird fly, but >there's also the matter that the typical bird statue doesn't have the >correct structures to mimic bird flight -- you'd have to separately detail >every feather, if I remember the mechanics of bird flight correctly. Of course, imho, typically stone ANYTHING doesn't have the correct structures to mimic anything biological, such as speech, movement, ect. While I know that some status have tendons carved in them . . . most that I'd seen personally haven't (that I can recall.) Because of the sheer SUPERNATURAL (or at least DIVINE) nature of the stone vessel, I'd say as GM that, sure, the stone bird can fly. Its an ANGEL of GOD, not some two-bit telekinetic. If a stone human can walk (and in the process shift its weight so that it might collaspe under normal circumstances), I think that the bird should be able to fly. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html Think, or be damned. - --Bryan Penton ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:27:04 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Stone Vessels >At 7:19 PM +1100 2/4/00, Azrael wrote: > >Could a stone vessel of a bird fly? Especially a hummingbird (their > >super-speedy wingflapping would have to be moreso). > >Oh, man... I wouldn't allow more than _maybe_ gliding, I think. Stone >vessels move more slowly, IIRC... Ha ha ha, "over a period of thousands of years" comes to mind. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "What do you mean, 'You think,' didn't you build this thing?" "Well, if by 'build' you mean 'steal,' then sure." - --John and Phillip, respectively from Goats (c)1998 Jonathan Rosenberg ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:37:44 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Languages. > >How do you folks handle it? One suggestion from a player was that angels > >should be able to speak every earthly language, just because of what they > >are. Ha ha ha ha . . . No. (If only for the sake of playability.) >Of course you could rule that old angels, while having more skills, >probably also have more problems, and just justify them having to spend >the points in languages by having them take a dissonance or two, or >perhaps something like a flaw where they have gained certain styles that >are recognizalbe to scholars, or an old enemy, what have you.... > >But I ramble. >Derke K. SFAIK, if you're going to be a GM for a player who wants to play an older (and theremore more experienced) angel, then you have a PC who's NOT starting with starting stats anyway, (unless they've been recently cut down to size or something.) But, you do bring up an interesting dilemna, what to do with angels who've lived in ancient times and their languages. IIRC, celestials are granted a level of whatever human language is appropriate for whereever they're assigned. I'd say that unless a celestial take XP points to study that language, then as soon as it's reassigned to an area with a different language/dialect, the free language would be changed accordingly. The older celestial may remember being able to speak ancient greek, but that doesn't mean that it can anymore. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "Man does not live by words alone, despite the fact that sometimes he has to eat them." - --Adlai Stevenson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 15:45:15 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Languages. Remember that language skills deteriorate quickly if you don't use them. At one time, I was conversationally fluent in Arabic, but I haven't practiced the language in about 4 years, and now I can barely remember more than a few words. It's reasonable to assume that if an angel or demon hasn't spoken Aramaic in 2000 years, he has lost that skill. However, it is easier to relearn a language than to learn a new one. So a celestial could justify rapid fluency in a language (i.e., just spend the points) by saying that he spoke it at one time, and it's coming back to him with a little practice. Another workaround I've allowed at least once is to allow old celestials a Knowledge skill: "Ancient Languages." Whenever a snippet of Egyptian or Assyrian or Old Greek is presented to them, a successful roll will allow them to understand the gist of the meaning. This doesn't mean they can actually communicate in any of those languages, but it gives them a generic "familiarity" with ancient tongues. If they really want to actually be able to communicate in a bunch of old languages, though... yes, they should spend the points. But remember that a celestial with a high Intelligence can communicate pretty well with a Language skill of 1. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 17:37:57 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Languages. At 1:37 PM -0800 2/6/00, Perry Lloyd wrote: >> >How do you folks handle it? One suggestion from a player was that angels >> >should be able to speak every earthly language, just because of what they >> >are. > >Ha ha ha ha . . . > >No. > >(If only for the sake of playability.) Mm -- I disagree. As I listed elsewhere, I prefer to assume that Angels and Demons were not inflicted with the confusion of tongues after the Babel incident. An Angel can understand and speak to anyone. What they *can't* do is translate. As such: [An angel and an American Soldier of God meet a French Soldier of God.] [French Soldier] [Angel] [American Soldier] What'd you two say? [Angel] Eh? Oh. He told me , and I told him . [American Soldier] Er... right. What's that mean in English? [Angel] Eh? It means [American Soldier] ...just tell me what to do, okay? [Angel] Now *that's* the attitude, son! - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 22:20:32 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: IN> La Femme Nikita I'm in the midst of an episode of "La Femme Nikita," and it occurs to me that Operations and Madeline are really Asmodeus and Staciel. Anyone else have thoughts to offer on this issue? (It also bears mentioning that the male hero of this show, the superb warrior, is named Michael...) G ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 20:16:09 PST From: "Miles 2 Go" Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Languages. >How do you folks handle it? One suggestion from a player was that >angels >should be able to speak every earthly language, just >because of what they are. My stingy GM instincts tell me that if you >want to simulate an older angel, take the skills necessary to make >the >simulation work, but then you end up with an older angel who is >weaker than his modern counterparts because he had to toss half >a dozen points into language skills. Is there an adequate middle >road, or >is one of us correct? Is your game cinematic or realistic? The realistic answer is that languages fade when not used, languages are hard to acquire, and hard to master. I'm confused about why a game like IN which is so cinematic has a language system that is realistic. It requires you to buy each language as a separate skill. Ok, that's realistic. It is hard to learn a foreign language. For my game I've altered the rules to be more cinematic. Each language skill costs one point, and they accumulate to give you an overall language ability to understand any tongue. That's totally unrealistic. However, in my experience it is rarely interesting to roleplay an inability to communicate. In fact in most cases it is just annoyning to all parties involved. Universal translators and overlooking the fact that everyone speaks English are movie traditions that help keep the plot moving and rarely cause trouble. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:30:16 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Languages. > >How do you folks handle it? One suggestion from a player was that angels > >should be able to speak every earthly language, just because of what they > >are. My stingy GM instincts tell me that if you want to simulate an older > >angel, take the skills necessary to make the simulation work, but then you > >end up with an older angel who is weaker than his modern counterparts > >because he had to toss half a dozen points into language skills. Is there > >an adequate middle road, or is one of us correct? For older angels, I don't limit them to the standard number of character points that a new angel gets. There are a couple of ways to handle this - one is to give them a higher number of points to buy resources with. Just put ceilings on levels if you don't want them buying a number of songs at level 6... Another alternative is to let the player bring the character they want to run to you, resources already selected, and you review it. No point limits on resource purchases, just whatever limits you want to set on Forces, or skill ceilings, etc. The caveat, however, is they have to justify everything they want - nothing is a 'just cause it's cool' item unless I say so. This is my preferred way of handling things - it also gives me a chance to get an idea towards how the player is going to run the character and the sort of warped things they're going to come up with to challenge my ability to be creative. As I've got some extremely creative and experienced players, an advance preview of the way the character thinks helps - alot. We've run up against the language issue before, and my current take on it is that I *could* come up with a mechanic for it, but I'm not going to do so right now. I'll give the characters languages (and other skills) that seem appropriate. If I goof with what I allow in the campaign and make a mess for myself, that's *my* fault, not the player's. I just have to adapt to deal with the skill set involved. Kiara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 08:51:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Languages. On Sun, 6 Feb 2000, Ben Glickler wrote: > How do you folks handle it? One suggestion from a player was that angels > should be able to speak every earthly language, just because of what they > are. My stingy GM instincts tell me that if you want to simulate an older > angel, take the skills necessary to make the simulation work, but then you > end up with an older angel who is weaker than his modern counterparts > because he had to toss half a dozen points into language skills. Is there > an adequate middle road, or is one of us correct? I assume that angels are "programmed" with the primary language of the area they are assigned to. If they want to speak more than that, they need to cough up points. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 09:47:21 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Languages. I think that, if a player wanted to play a very old angel (or an angel who has been working on Earth a long time), I would either let them have some extra points to spend on "historical color" skills -- so long as these skills did NOT relate to combat or Songs -- or just let them write up a short history of the character, which would imply -- not list -- various skills that have since faded with time. If the great age is to be more than color -- if ancient languages are going to be crucial to the plot -- then they pay like normal. But if they just want to reminisce about how modern fire-fights compare with the times they had with the musketeers or the Vikings, then cut them some kind of slack. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:56:55 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Languages. At 12:40 PM -0700 2/6/00, Ben Glickler wrote: >Do celestials have to take the language skill to simulate their age? Depends on the GM... One thing a GM can do is "gift" an old celestial with otherwise useless language skills. (If they're not useful except as flavor, hey, go for it.) Another thing one can do is Conservation Of Skill Points. The celestial brain is finite, after all -- so you can have a Superior wipe out Ancient Greek in favor of Modern Spanish the next time they send the celestial down to Earth. (Either handwave that it's necessary, or "penalize" the character for swearing in Linear B a while back. "If you're going to show your age, I'll have to fix it so you won't. There.") There's not an official take on this. Yet. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 12:02:26 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Languages. At 14:40 -0500 2/6/00, Ben Glickler wrote: >How do you folks handle it? One suggestion from a player was that angels >should be able to speak every earthly language, just because of what they >are. No, that's *much* too easy, unless the GM really wants to avoid dealing with language barriers in the campaign. For one thing, it makes the Corp. Song of Tongues pretty redundant. > My stingy GM instincts tell me that if you want to simulate an older >angel, take the skills necessary to make the simulation work, but then you >end up with an older angel who is weaker than his modern counterparts >because he had to toss half a dozen points into language skills. Is there >an adequate middle road, or is one of us correct? I'd tend to go this way, but I might be willing to borrow the "hobby skill" mechanic from GURPS -- skills that are way out of the campaign mainstream can be bought at half-price. So I'd allow the player to buy, say, 4 levels of assorted ancient languages for 2 points. Sometimes they'd come in useful, and most of the time, they wouldn't. Another possible (non-canon) answer is that celestials have limited "skull space" for skills, and when a Superior grants a new language, he sometimes "overwrites" an old one. In this case, I'd probably allow the character to remember a few words in the "erased" language, and it would certainly seem familiar (he'd recognize it when he saw it), but he could not understand, write, or speak it to any significant extent. This allows you to have older angels with only modern languages, but still allow them to have a feeling of age and experience behind them. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 15:02:49 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Languages. >At 14:40 -0500 2/6/00, Ben Glickler wrote: > >How do you folks handle it? One suggestion from a player was that angels > >should be able to speak every earthly language, just because of what they > >are. Walter comments: > >No, that's *much* too easy, unless the GM really wants to avoid dealing >with language barriers in the campaign. For one thing, it makes the Corp. >Song of Tongues pretty redundant. Unless you change the Corp Song o' Tongues to be something along the lines of: A successful performance allows all those within CD yards of the singer to communicate in any human language - in, in all human languages at the same time. All will understand any text or speech in as close an approximation as possible to his/her own language as possible, and others within range will hear s/he speak in the language they feel most comfortable with. (For the Song's duration, this extends to reading the writing of all those affected.) The Song effects will abate after the performer's number of Ethereal Forces x10 in minutes. Or something like that. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "Be grateful for luck. Pay the thunder no mind---listen to the birds. And don't hate nobody." - --Eubie Blake ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1524 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.