From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue May 2 13:42:08 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16172 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 13:42:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA24469 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 13:39:59 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 13:39:59 -0500 Message-Id: <200005021839.NAA24469@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1607 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 2 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1607 In this digest: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements IN> Evil Vapulan Tech: The Tetragramaphone Re: IN> Cyber In Nomine Re: IN> Christian Mods Re: IN> DC Tethers... Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> DC Tethers... Re: IN> Evil Vapulan Tech: The Tetragramaphone Re: IN> DC Tethers... Re: IN> What happened? Re: IN> Pushing Books IN> the Nature of the Son Re: IN> Evil Vapulan Tech: The Tetragramaphone Re: IN> Pushing Books Re: IN> the Nature of the Son Re: IN> Literate In Nomine Players Re: IN> Cyber In Nomine Re: IN> What happened? Re: IN> Christian Mods RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - Re: IN> What happened? RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) IN> wenn die Engel fallen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:59:59 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> RE: Players and Supplements The Other David: >I would second Davids observation with my own experience from behind the >game store counter. If it doesn't take off in the first year (and really the >first quarter) then it's not going to really be a mover and a shaker in the >RPG universe. Sad but true. That's confirmed by something Jim Butler (of WotC) said. They operate on a "90-day rule"; if a new setting or product isn't selling well after 90 days, they don't support it in the future. He said that their research, and I have no reason to imagine that SJG is any different, shows that the majority of their sales come in the first three months after release of any product. - -- Andrew Hackard /\ "My money and my Promotional Writer /()\ [CENSORED] go to Steve Jackson Games / \ Illuminati University" andrew@sjgames.com /______\ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:04:48 -0400 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: IN> Evil Vapulan Tech: The Tetragramaphone One day, Vapula decided he was sick of his agents being bugged -- with listening devices, not unexpected failure modes -- and casually invented the tetragramaphone. It's a very simple device; it's more or less just a set of speakers that when turned on broadcasts the secret Name of God, distorted and backwards, over and over again. No nonsentient listening device can that picks up a tetragramaphone broadcast bear to record this corruption of the Almighty's name, and consequently breaks. Tape recorders, microphones, telephones -- it doesn't matter how the recording is made; the listening device and the recording medium are both irrevocably ruined when they try to record a broadcast from the tetragramaphone. Sentient listeners are affected as follows: o Any human in the range of a tetragramaphone broadcast must make a Will roll each turn or lose check digit Mind hits, and any attempt to remember the details of any sounds they heard during that turn will fail. o Angels must also make a Will roll each turn to 'tune out' the evil device's perverse mutterings, but don't suffer any mental damage from hearing it. o Demons are immune, except for Habbalah. Habbalah must make a Will roll, and if they fail they go berserk with wrath. (Habbalah don't suffer any problems understanding what was said -- they just get angry.) Demons typically use the tetragramaphone for a 'cone of silence' effect. Its utility is a little bit limited, however, since every turn it is on generates a point of Disturbance. (This accumulates normally - -- after ten turns of operation there's a strength 10 disturbance.) Furthermore, when a demon turns on the device, it must make a d666 roll. On a Divine Intervention, the tetragramaphone breaks and the demon is struck with the Mute discord. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:58:08 +0100 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Cyber In Nomine From: Robert Veneman-Hughes > Now, I am less decided when dealing with the metaphysical impact of > cybertech. A common theme in cyberpunk is giving up man for the machine - > how does that work in game terms? maybe you could permanently lose a soul point for every point of evil cyber stuff. that way folks with too much cyber gear start actually losing celestial forces liam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 11:21:01 -0400 From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: IN> Christian Mods Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > I'd reduce the amount of squabbling in Heaven, and radically reduce the > sheer enmity. None of this business of Michael called Dominic the "hyena > of Heaven," etc. I'd even make Dominic Archangel of Justice. Agreed. One of the things that turns me off a by-the-book campaign is the political aspect; smacks a little too much of the World of Darkness to me. It's just not my taste, though I appreciate that it appeals to others. > The two new states, Blessed and Damned, are final and irrevocable. If > you reach either of those states, you have, in effect, *used* *up* your > free will and are eternally fixed in that condition. Naturally, most PCs > will not start the game Blessed or Damned. (Except maybe Malakim.) The WW Ars Magica supplement, "Pax Dei" had something about Angels having a moment of choice (the term escapes me and I'm too lazy to walk the three feet to my bookshelf and find it), where they decide which way they are going to go. Maybe that choice exists at either end of your spectrum, so that angels can *choose* to be blessed or damned once they've fallen as far as they can, or risen to the heights of the unblessed (if that makes any sense at all). I'd make it advantageous to go make the choice to go further, at the cost of their free will, so that the choice for the fallen becomes to remain fallen and get more and more twisted, or to become damned and become a "vessel of darkness"(tm), and for the unblessed it becomes to remain unblessed and be a sort of angelic bodhisattva (and suffer greater temptations and trials), or to become a part of God. Each step could have advantages, such as a massive leap in power, or could be taken as the choice to retire the character and have it become a mover and shaker NPC. Just rambling here :-) > The immortality of the soul is a very firm Christian tradition. I would > say only the Damned can soul-die. Everyone else just goes into Trauma as > in the canonical version. If the canon would have had you soul-dead, you > go into Trauma so lengthy that you'd better start a new character. I've never liked the concept of soul-death, and would think that in a strictly Christian campaign it wouldn't occur under any circumstances. Immortality is an absolute - if you can be destroyed, you're not immortal. My opinion is that even souls in Hell can't be destroyed. Stripped of almost all of their forces, yes. Destroyed, no. It makes Hell just that little bit more unpleasent to think that, no matter what happens to you there, your torment is never, ever going to end. One addition I would make is the presence of God. In a hardcore Christian campaign, God would be very much there, not sequestered beyond the range of memory in the upper heavens. Most angels would have a personal memory of Him, if not direct recent experience. How the GM could handle this, I have no idea, though Derek wrote that funky article on the various aspects of God in pyramid, and I think it's been archived on the site now. Good stuff, Earl! Doctor TOC - -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" - Wu Name: Jive Talkin' Choirboy ICQ # 4814586 Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:01:37 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> DC Tethers... At 12:35 -0400 5/1/00, Andrew Hackard wrote: >Walter opined: >>It's on the high side, I think, but Austin (in Night Music) has about that >>number, and it's less than a century old, if I recall right, and a little >>smaller, I believe. > >Austin is nearly 150 years old Right... that was a braino. I should have said "less than a couple centuries old". A relative newcomer, as cities go.... (OK, I live in a town that passed its 375th anniversary recently. And Maya could easily top that -- or any of the rest of the European contingent.) >(Or you could just take the San Antonio-Austin area as one big urban >sprawl, which isn't too far off the truth and getting increasingly accurate >every year. That would have a population well over 2 million people.) Yeah, but for Tether-calculation purposes, that doesn't help, since Night Music doesn't really address how many Tethers are in San Antonio. I'd have to assume there would be a few more there, at least. Austin, as state capital, does have the same thing going for it as DC -- it's a place where people focus their attention a lot, and therefore it probably has a disproportionate number of Tethers. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:12:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:46:10 -0500From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) >>Maurice Lane wrote: >> I may be overly optimistic, >> but I'm pretty sure that the sales will be going up >>on this stuff eventually. >I think you are overly optimistic. Does anyone know >of ANY RPG that eventually became a hit despite not >selling well for its first 3 years? Nope. But see comment below. >Mediocre releases and The Long Night of No Line >Editor probably helped stake IN, but it was already >weakening as a line because it just wasn't being >pushed as heavily as it should have been. There are >other factors involved, some of which I'm just not >going to comment on, but much as *I* love In >Nomine personally, and will continue to write for it >as long as SJG is still publishing it, I think it's >lost any chance to be more than a tiny niche market. I love IN myself: wouldn't stick good money into it if I didn't. I'd like to write for the line myself, in the future, and make oodles and oodles of money doing so.* But, to [inject a note of hope / viciously torment people with if-onlys], I'm wondering if the situation might be a little different here. Specifically, I'm curious if any other game company out there makes a habit of producing licensed supplements and conversions of other companies' game lines. I know that everybody and his brother did AD&D stuff, and most games will provide conversion notes, but I've never heard of a company that adapts as many lines as SJG. Being a hardcore Other SJG RPG buyer, I don't really look at other lines, unless I played them before I discovered the OSJGRPG ... or unless SJG comes up with a new license. I didn't buy any WW, Castle Falk, CoC or B&B** until I looked at the conversion and said, "cool". Why bother looking for good games on a limited budget if some company whose judgement I trust is doing it for me? I probably won't buy Deadlands or Conspiracy X until I at least look at the playtest copies, for the same reason. My dim hope is that the average SJG customer out there works under the same principle, and will get seduced into IN when GURPS IN comes out. Not _all_ of them are Pyramid subscribers, after all: I suspect most aren't, so it's a big old "we'll see". Moe *Yeah, I know, I'm on drugs. Name 5 multimillionaire RPG writers/designers. Name one. :) **Well, I don't have Bunnies & Burrows, but that's only because I _can't_find_it_. Which was the point of the conversion, I suppose. :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:13:48 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> DC Tethers... >From: Walter Milliken >(OK, I live in a >town that passed its 375th anniversary recently. And Maya could easily >top that She may be wise beyond her years, but I'm sure she's not _that_ old :) jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 12:23:40 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Evil Vapulan Tech: The Tetragramaphone The name alone is worth the price of admission. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:20:42 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> DC Tethers... Walter: >Austin, as state capital, does have the same thing going for it as DC -- >it's a place where people focus their attention a lot, and therefore it >probably has a disproportionate number of Tethers. Oh, definitely. Not to mention the large university campus, the thriving club district, the unofficial naturist beach . . . it's a fun place to live. :-) - -- Andrew Hackard /\ "My money and my Promotional Writer /()\ [CENSORED] go to Steve Jackson Games / \ Illuminati University" andrew@sjgames.com /______\ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:37:59 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> What happened? At 8:16 AM -0400 5/2/00, Daedalus3D@aol.com wrote: [...] Issues like faith and the >nature of God can't be spelled out in a supplement. To paraquote a commercial... "They won't be." There's a reason CDaU is listed in the GMG's index. O:> The only time you need fear "GURPSian" influence is when some power or Song activates a long, "How does this work, anyway?" discussion which leaves me feeling like there's something missing in the description... Makes me want to chew hardcovers and spit out leaflets. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:48:18 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books Our spies report that on 09:30 AM 5/2/00 -0500, Andrew Hackard said: >You're thinking just of the one product, the core rules. SJG is thinking >of the entire line, and looking at what will promote and maintain sales of >*all* the IN products. Mmm. Well, there is that. I would suggest however that there is some loss of potential buyers who pick up the book in the store, read some decent percentage of it (That's what happens around here with most things that aren't shrink wrapped) and then go "Huh? Nah.". Then even if a much cooler second edition came out, those people have already written the game off. OTOH, if there is no book available, some people might just forget about it but others might see the second edition later and decide to pick it up then. But you definitely have a point. I was concentrating on what would make the players happy, as opposed to what would be best or the company. Usually there's a correlation between the two and certainly the company still publishing SOMETHING new for the game is going to make players happy. The game going away would probably make players sad. So I suppose making current players happy has to be balanced with acquiring new players, who from a very cynical point of view will need to buy some percentage of the supplements before finally realizing some of the inherent problems. At which point they have indeed bought those supplements, which is something people who already own them can't do. Hmm. Oh well. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:55:37 EDT From: Daedalus3D@aol.com Subject: IN> the Nature of the Son Egad! Trying to eat Campells Bean & Bacon soup while typing an e-mail is harder than I thought. Actually, in my campaign, the PC's haven't even discovered that there is controversy about the Son yet. They've been on earth for a looooooong time and have been out of Celestial politics. They figure that the "Son debate" was over millenia ago. They're completely wrong of course. However, it does provide a kind of general atmosphere for the NPC celestials that I have in the campaign. And the PC's will discover it eventually. The chief question that remains now is whether or not the Son actually exists as a seperate being from God, anymore. Like Uriel, he was taken up into the Empyreum (how do you spell that?) and never heard from again. Some speculate that he was "made one" with God the same way that God is one with the Symphony, so that there is no longer any distinction. The Trinitarians in Heaven argue that he is still seperate, but made of the name substance as God (whatever that means). Many angels think it's doubtful that the Son manifested in Jesus, but they aren't going to question Dominic's personal opinion on the subject and risk an inquisition. Still others argue that the Son has manifested in all of the world's major religious figures: Jesus, Mohammed, Elijah, Enoch, Dante, Lao-zi, and Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha). Which would explain why the worship of those various religions still provide essence to God when others don't. Basically, I decided that if there is a huge controversy on earth as to whether or not Jesus was/is the messiah, I think there should be one in Heaven too. Hope that clears things up. Daedalus ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 2000 10:09:21 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Evil Vapulan Tech: The Tetragramaphone On Tue, 02 May 2000, neelk@cswcasa.com wrote: > o Demons are immune, except for Habbalah. Habbalah must make a Will > roll, and if they fail they go berserk with wrath. (Habbalah don't > suffer any problems understanding what was said -- they just get > angry.) I find this at odss with the fact that Vap is a Habbie. Admittedly, as a superior, he can easily make the Will roll, but still... How do you handle Vap's delusion? That might go a ways in explaining things. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 13:27:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books At 9:48 AM -0700 5/2/00, Sean McCarthy wrote: >Our spies report that on 09:30 AM 5/2/00 -0500, Andrew Hackard said: > > >>You're thinking just of the one product, the core rules. SJG is thinking >>of the entire line, and looking at what will promote and maintain sales of >>*all* the IN products. > > Mmm. Well, there is that. I would suggest however that there is >some loss of potential buyers who pick up the book in the store, read some >decent percentage of it (That's what happens around here with most things >that aren't shrink wrapped) and then go "Huh? Nah.". I'd rather have a glass that's half empty than one that's totally empty. If circumstances conspire such that the Much Cooler Edition can't be done in time, then better to go with one which _does_ sell to some degree than to have nothing there at all. (And if it's out of print for too long, it will lose all the fragile momentum that it _has_ built up -- stores won't order supplements for a 'dead' line with no main book! With no supplements, when the Much Cooler Edition came out, stores won't order _it_ "because it's not supported, and wasn't that line canceled anyway?" Catch 22.) I didn't say a reprint was a _good_ choice, just the best which could be made at the time. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 13:19:01 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> the Nature of the Son This is amusing, since Milton himself was an Arian, and thus very much caught up in the controversy about the nature of the Son. Daedalus3D@aol.com wrote: > Like Uriel, he was taken up into the Empyreum (how do you spell > that?) and never heard from again. "Empyrean." That's a nice alternate name for the Upper Heavens. > Some speculate that he was "made one" with God the same way that > God is one with the Symphony, so that there is no longer any > distinction. The Trinitarians in Heaven argue that he is still > seperate, but made of the name substance as God (whatever that > means). Human theologians would find it bizarre to suppose that the Son *became* one with God; the usual supposition is that he always was (or always wasn't). I think you meant "same substance," not "name substance." The Trinitarian formulation is that one must neither divide the substance nor confuse the persons. That is, the Father, Son, and Spirit are, in the Trinitarian view, all one Being, but quite separate persons. And you are trembling on the brink of some of the most confusing and heated metaphysics to ever rage through Western thought. > Many angels think it's doubtful that the Son manifested in Jesus, > but they aren't going to question Dominic's personal opinion on > the subject and risk an inquisition. I realize you aren't limiting yourself to canon, but just FYI, the canonical Dominic simply isn't sure who Jesus was, but backs the Catholic Church as the best religious organization available on Earth (in his opinion). Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 13:24:14 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Literate In Nomine Players At 15:42 -0400 5/1/00, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >In fact, the Games Master's Guide for IN has a section on playing >IN "By the Book," which does just that. Personally, I feel that >the default IN world is deliberately watered down in theological >content, to reach maximum market and avoid offence, Knowing SJ, I don't think avoiding offence was a particularly important issue. At least in the sense of pandering to their viewpoints. (SJ has no particular use for people being gratuitously offensive, but he's more than happy to satirize people's cherished beliefs. There's a lot of Windy attitudes in SJ....) I think the "maxmimum market" is dead on, though I don't know for sure, since I wasn't involved when IN was being written originally. > but that this >meant foregoing a rich source of background and flavor -- or rather >a whole panoply of rich sources. Exactly the problem... choosing one would have closed down the concept a lot. In some sense, IN's theology is generic -- look at the areas of CDaU. Some people obviously would prefer it to be nailed down more closely to a specific source, as INS/MV was, to some extent -- a lot more Catholic-specific than IN. But *which* source? I don't think there'd be widespread agreement here, and I know I would have been far less interested in a specific adaptation of one theological model. Personally, I think that was a good choice. But it does impact the degree of "flavor" one can give the game. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 10:25:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Guy Royse Subject: Re: IN> Cyber In Nomine I was thinking about something that was said early on this thread about cyberspace, ghosts, and the Ethereal realm and it occured to me that in addition to old gods and ethereal spirits haunting cyberspace, that one could contact dreamshades as well. It's like those events you hear of today when so-and-so's dead family memeber calls them on the phone only someone runs into them on the 'net. The phone calls of today could even be the primative formings of the Ethereal/cyberspace network. Seems like there might be a adventure seed in there somewhere. Guy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 13:32:09 -0400 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> What happened? From: Elizabeth McCoy > The only time you need fear "GURPSian" influence is when some power > or Song activates a long, "How does this work, anyway?" discussion > which leaves me feeling like there's something missing in the > description... Makes me want to chew hardcovers and spit out > leaflets. Makes me think of a short blurb I read in a White Wolf supplement. In Pentex: Subsidiaries, they were describing the Black Dog game factory, where all the games revolve around angst and swearing and were analyzing the "state of the industry." In the heading under "Stan Paxton Games," they said a few things about always turning out consistently quality games, but then went on to say "what their games lack in spirit and imagination they make up for in charts and sidebars." They also mentioned SP Games' latest foray into modernity & ethical dilemmas, a game called _Holy Damnation_. "However, the fact that no member of their staff has ever visited a nightclub, kissed a member of the opposite sex or tried an illegal drug hamstrung their efforts." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 13:29:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Christian Mods Doctor TOC wrote: > Good stuff, Earl! Thank you. > One addition I would make is the presence of God. In a hardcore > Christian campaign, God would be very much there, not sequestered > beyond the range of memory in the upper heavens. Most angels would > have a personal memory of Him, if not direct recent experience. Good point. Of course, I also think David made a good point in the GMG when he warned against bringing God or Satan on stage, for reasons of dramatic punch and taste. I think I can see a compromise. 1) The Light of Heaven (which makes Heaven a corrosive and intolerable place for demons) could be a diluted but continuous presence of God. Angels miss it keenly when on Earth. If humans on Earth catch a glimmer of it, that's what ecstatic mystical experience is. 2) On most Divine Interventions, angels and Soldiers of Heaven get a clear impression of God's immediate and encouraging presence, along with whatever favorable special effects happen. 3) However, God generally speaks in detail only to Archangels, and at length only through Gabriel. This puts God offstage, but just barely, when your AA comes to you and says, "The Lord God Almighty directs me to send you to Poughkeepsie. (Whatever have you done?!) No, He didn't say why, but looking the situation over from my Archangelic perspective, I'd say my infernal bete noire is active in the area, so go scotch him. Any by the way, here's a list of things to do to further our Word while you're in the neighborhood." Or something like that. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 13:34:33 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - At 20:37 -0400 5/1/00, Robert Veneman-Hughes wrote: >I need a bit of inspiration... I am doing a basic write-up of Orc as the >recently promoted Archangel of Networks, and I am struggling for a >dissonance condition... One fitting with the cyberpunk genre in which he'll >exist might be best, but I'm not sure... > >Thoughts? Allowing the network to go down? Or be interfered with? Tampering with the free flow of information? - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:46:45 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> What happened? From: "Gregory Gietzen" > > Makes me think of a short blurb I read in a White Wolf supplement. In > Pentex: Subsidiaries, they were describing the Black Dog game factory, where > all the games revolve around angst and swearing and were analyzing the > "state of the industry." Even people who don't play WW games should take a look at this section of the book. This is one of the most brutal satires of the gaming industry I've yet seen. ObIN: If you want to have roleplaying games actually be part of a Satanic conspiracy in your game, this has excellent pointers on how to go about it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 13:46:31 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - At 1:34 PM -0400 5/2/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 20:37 -0400 5/1/00, Robert Veneman-Hughes wrote: > >I need a bit of inspiration... I am doing a basic write-up of Orc as the > >recently promoted Archangel of Networks, and I am struggling for a > >dissonance condition... One fitting with the cyberpunk genre in which he'll > >exist might be best, but I'm not sure... > > > >Thoughts? > >Allowing the network to go down? Or be interfered with? > >Tampering with the free flow of information? I'd say "checking e-mail and bookmarked web sites at least four times a day, at least thirty minutes apart" or the equivilent... - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:04:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) > I think you are overly optimistic. Does anyone know of ANY RPG that > eventually became a hit despite not selling well for its first 3 years? > In Nomine had an excellent chance to become a major contender. There was > considerable buzz and excitement about it in the years(!) leading up to > its release, and it got a lot of commentary and reviews immediately > after its release. > > SJG's marketing failed to sustain that buzz. Mediocre releases and The > Long Night of No Line Editor probably helped stake IN, but it was > already weakening as a line because it just wasn't being pushed as > heavily as it should have been. There are other factors involved, some > of which I'm just not going to comment on, but much as *I* love In > Nomine personally, and will continue to write for it as long as SJG is > still publishing it, I think it's lost any chance to be more than a tiny > niche market. I agree wholeheartedly with David on the point of the very poor marketing. Between a slew of mediocre supplements as the initial offering, amazingly poor management of the line, and a complete drop-off of marketing, it's no surprise that the game line is currently dying. > I'd love to be proven wrong, but while this list is full of stories of > hardcore fans who bought the main book and were so captivated that they > immediately went out and bought all the supplements, look at the gaming > community at large and what they say on newsgroups, lists, forums, and > in person. In Nomine generally elicits a yawn. My experience is that people lost patience when the Angelic Player's Guide came out. Everyone wanted something... great, and what they received was not great. So they left. Welcome to life in a competitive marketplace. There was a lesson that was missed in this exercize that I've been fortunate enough to learn while working professionally in the Big Gaming Scene (I make toys for a living): You make games. They are not missile guidance systems, or heart monitors, or vital, life saving medications. You make games. They're fun. If you miss a deadline by a few days, or weeks, or months, it's okay. Because you make games, and it's better to be great than to be broken. People will love you more if you're great than if you are on time. There is nothing to get worked up over, because you make games. And they're fun. If it doesn't work out, that's okay too, because you had fun making it and people had fun playing it. If it doesn't work out, it's a game. You can make another game. And there's nothing to get upset or worked up about, because it's a game, and we're having fun. It's the best kind of job in the world. I had this epiphany recently when the number of subscribers of our service passed the number of subscribers to Pyramid _in one day_, on one server, in one city, with no marketing. 3,500 people came and used my software and hit my service and had fun in one day. And we're growing. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. I've met many interesting people in both RPG gaming and computer gaming, and the most successful ones had cultivated the above additude. It's not about money, or making everyone happy. It's a game. It's fun. The successful ones are having a good time. We had fun while it was here, we had fun making it, and those of us who make games will have fun making something else. Those people here who are making it an issue of money and selling have missed the point completely, and it's probably why In Nomine is dying. While concentrating so hard on the bottom line, no one was having any fun. No one was asking themselves, "What can we do to make this FUN?" So it wasn't any more. More decisions are being made, not on fun, but on the bottom line. And more readers will go away, because readers aren't dumb, and they want to have a good time, and they'll go where the fun is. And if it's not here, then that's it, I guess. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.pave-france.org/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 2000 11:26:02 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) On Tue, 02 May 2000, Andrew Hackard wrote: > From my own reading of mailing lists and Usenet, people who already own > material tend to avoid reprints unless there's substantial new material in > them, and they resent new editions of stuff that they've just recently > bought. Let me use myself as an illustration. I like White Wolf stuff. I like it, I buy it, I read it, I play it. I have damn near every game book they've put out....until recently. I bought first edition books because they were neat games and I wanted to read and play them. After a few months exposure to that game, I noticed where there were flaws, either in the mechanics or background or whatever. Still, I consider myself a competent GM and made my own revisions. When second editions came out, I bouth those. Why? Because they were substantially better than 1st ed., streamlining the setting and patching or revising problem areas. Besides, they were hardcover, and I'm hell on books. Now 3rd edition has come out. I bought Vampire 3rd because not only did it further refine the rules, but put all the clans into one book. This was good. However, I will not buy Mage 3rd. Why? Because they only things that have changed are minor alterations to the setting and the addition of a flavor mechanic. I most definitely WON'T be getting the Revised Clanbooks, because I spent over $100 getting the original releases. Not only will I not pay for something that I have most of, but I won't pay more for it. (First ed CB - $10. Rev CB - $15.) I think I'm representative of most WW gamers out there. I also realize that Vamp 3rd isn't being marketed to me, but rather to the people who are getting in on the game for the first time. This does not especially endear me to WW, since it appears that they are willing to forsake their loyal fanbase for attracting new blood and new money. Do I understand why they're doing this? Sure, and from a business POV, it makes perfect sense. Hell, I'd do it if I were in their shoes. But I'm not; I'm a customer, and like it or not most RPG purchases (indeed, I think it can be said of all hobby purchases) are influenced more by emotion than logic. Remember, it's love of the game that got us hooked and caused us to drop too much money on it, not logic. And that same intensity of emotion can all too easily turn against the publisher... I would love to see the RPG equivilent of 'program upgrades'. Just as you can buy an upgrade to Win98 if you already have Win95, I'd like to see a 'Second Edition Upgrade' for those of us who already have the first ed rules: a cheaper book that lists ONLY the changes between editions. That way, new players and completists can buy the full second edition, and those of us with limited resources can buy just the upgrade and play the same version the publisher is supporting without feeling like we just got taken for $25. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 13:41:07 -0500 From: Jonathan B Lotzer Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Casca wrote: > > > I would love to see the RPG equivilent of 'program upgrades'. Just as you can buy an upgrade to Win98 if you already have Win95, I'd like to see a 'Second Edition Upgrade' for those of us who already have the first ed rules: a cheaper book that lists ONLY the changes between editions. That way, new players and completists can buy the full second edition, and those of us with limited resources can buy just the upgrade and play the same version the publisher is supporting without feeling like we just got taken for $25. > > -- Casca Actually, IIRC, SJG has already done something like this. GURPS Update basically took the 2nd ed and brought it into 3rd ed terms. Overall, a nice product, a little brief and abstract in parts, but a good $15(?) reference instead of having to buy a $25 book. Jonathan B Lotzer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 13:39:23 CDT From: "Sidley 310" Subject: IN> wenn die Engel fallen In the Name of The Father, and Of The Son, and Of The Holy Spirit, Pax et Bonum, Hullo(: Angels + Demons :) In keeping true to the current discussion of IN+Cyb/punk, I was cleaning out my files when i recovered this Angelic Cyb/punkesque image. Are we permitted to append to our posts to the list ? Yours, Sidley ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1607 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.