From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue May 2 17:55:45 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08302 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:55:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA10098 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:53:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:53:52 -0500 Message-Id: <200005022253.RAA10098@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1608 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 2 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1608 In this digest: Re: IN> What happened? Re: IN> wenn die Engel fallen IN> RE: Pushing Books Re: IN> Evil Vapulan Tech: The Tetragramaphone Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - Re: IN> RE: Pushing Books Re: IN> Pushing Books Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes Re: IN> Evil Vapulan Tech: The Tetragramaphone IN> Nano Doom Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> What happened? Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes Re: IN> wenn die Engel fallen Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes Re: IN> Pushing Books Re: IN> Evil Vapulan Tech: The Tetragramaphone Re: IN> What happened? Re: IN> Evil Vapulan Tech: The Tetragramaphone Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> What happened? IN> cybernetic Angels Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1606 Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books Re: IN> Flavortext and Worldview RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 13:45:22 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> What happened? >"However, the fact that no member of their staff has ever visited a >nightclub, kissed a member of the opposite sex or tried an illegal drug >hamstrung their efforts." Based on my conversation with several other staff members at lunch today, I can vouch that this is *not* an accurate description of the staff of SJG. Further, deponent sayeth not. - -- Andrew Hackard /\ "My money and my Promotional Writer /()\ [CENSORED] go to Steve Jackson Games / \ Illuminati University" andrew@sjgames.com /______\ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 14:56:27 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> wenn die Engel fallen Sidley 310 wrote: > In keeping true to the current discussion of IN+Cyb/punk, I was cleaning out > my files when i recovered this Angelic Cyb/punkesque image. Are we permitted > to append to our posts to the list ? The recommended (i.e. mandatory) method is to put it on a webpage somewhere and send the link. Large attached files and images are seldom appreciated. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:01:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "David M. Barr" Subject: IN> RE: Pushing Books I am willing to accept, for the sake of argument, David's (and others) assertions that any game line that does not take off in the first year is not going to; bummer, but there you go. But... I am curious about the affect of GURPS crossovers on the base game lines? There has been some some speculation (hope) that the forthcoming G:IN will generate some more interest in the base product. Has this been the case, with other lines, who were alive at the time of the GURPS crossover? Or has there been a sufficient sample of this to draw any conclusions? (there certainly does seem to be a sudden surge in crossovers... Is there an angel of Creation in service to Trade working overtime in Austin ?) Just wondering. - -Daiv Eli's Offanite an angel in service to Tortured Poetry end of the work day the phone may ring, no answer call back tomorrow ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 15:03:37 -0400 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: Re: IN> Evil Vapulan Tech: The Tetragramaphone > On Tue, 02 May 2000, neelk@cswcasa.com wrote: > > > o Demons are immune, except for Habbalah. Habbalah must make a Will > > roll, and if they fail they go berserk with wrath. (Habbalah don't > > suffer any problems understanding what was said -- they just get > > angry.) > > I find this at odss with the fact that Vap is a Habbie. Admittedly, as > a superior, he can easily make the Will roll, but still... I believe this is adequately covered under "unexpected failure modes." :) Even if it drives Vapula into a killing fury, I don't see him as suppressing technology. If other people use it around him, well, they should have read the manual. ("What manual!?") - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 13:05:27 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - > I need a bit of inspiration... I am doing a basic write-up of Orc as the > recently promoted Archangel of Networks, and I am struggling for a > dissonance condition... One fitting with the cyberpunk genre in which he'll > exist might be best, but I'm not sure... Perhaps, instead or promoting Orc (Networks? Archangel Word? Nah.), you merely need to make some adjustments to the most natural heir to Cyberspace -- Blandine. After all, once your Eli finished his meddling (and probably was terminated by Heaven), Orc was no longer the most important entity for the computerized community. The Archangel of Dreams was.... or, from the sound of your word, the Demon Princess of Nightmares.... > Thoughts? > > -Robert Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:03:21 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> RE: Pushing Books >on the base game lines? There has been some some speculation >(hope) that the forthcoming G:IN will generate some >more interest in the base product. Has this been the >case, with other lines, who were alive at the time >of the GURPS crossover? Or has there been a sufficient >sample of this to draw any conclusions? I'm not sure if there has been a sufficient sample, and even if there has, I'm not sure we have the data on how many sales of the original product were due to the GURPSification. As far as I know, our highest-profile "crossovers" to date have been the WoD books and GURPS Traveller, and that one doesn't really count because we are the only "official" source of new Traveller material. I'll be interested to see what happens to sales of IN books once GURPS IN comes out. - -- Andrew Hackard /\ "My money and my Promotional Writer /()\ [CENSORED] go to Steve Jackson Games / \ Illuminati University" andrew@sjgames.com /______\ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:10:16 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books with the large load of mail awaiting me from this list, it will be a while before I hit the bottom. but I want to throw in my comment on the whole IN Reprint thing before then. here's my situation: I'm a college student, and I play with other college students. that means usually I'm the only one that buys the books (I had a nice corporate job). I bought _every_ In Nomine book that came out, including all the versions of the main book. I even bought a couple of copies of the IPG, APG, CPG, LCant, and LR. basically, I bought for my whole group, and I continue to buy new books as they come out. I like the line, no I LOVE the line. but I have a dilemma. if the new main book is nothing but a reprint of the previous one, I can find no justification for buying it. and neither can my players or the people I got to buy the main book already, and if the reprint doesn't sell, then IN2/e is unlikely. so I've push and prodded and gotten people to buy books, promising when the sold out better editions would come out (since WW has been revising all their books the groups has been seeing the flaws in current IN books more and talking about 2/e). so what does this all mean? I will continue to buy In Nomine books until the whole line dies and even then I'll mourn it. but I don't think I'll be able to convince my group to spare what little cash they have on new In Nomine books for quite some time. - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, ACF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 13:15:41 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes > However - my problem is not in the Hi-Power situations as you would place it - but really in the crazy hack and slash players that would rather > go out and hunt down demons than be involved in the plot > Is there a way to convert the Hack and Slash player into something MORE of a Roleplayer? > John "The Apocalypse" Kuan Let him find a demon, and let the demon rip his wings off. After this happens a few times, he'll be a little more gunshy. Wrap a plot around the player. Make sure the plot is non-violent in the extreme. Make sure no demons are involved, maybe. This will draw him into the plot more forcefully, rather than tempt him with honey. You'll catch more players with flypaper. Maybe his violent attitude has gotten the attention of the Inquisition. What's he gonna do, SHOOT them? (And if he does, it's time to roll up a new character...) Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 15:23:31 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Evil Vapulan Tech: The Tetragramaphone - --On Tue, May 2, 2000 15:03 -0400 neelk@cswcasa.com wrote: >> On Tue, 02 May 2000, neelk@cswcasa.com wrote: >> >> > o Demons are immune, except for Habbalah. Habbalah must make a >> > Will roll, and if they fail they go berserk with wrath. >> > (Habbalah don't suffer any problems understanding what was >> > said -- they just get angry.) >> >> I find this at odss with the fact that Vap is a Habbie. Admittedly, >> as a superior, he can easily make the Will roll, but still... > > I believe this is adequately covered under "unexpected failure > modes." :) > > Even if it drives Vapula into a killing fury, I don't see him as > suppressing technology. If other people use it around him, well, > they should have read the manual. ("What manual!?") > Page 277, subpart J, in small type: et lui il est EXTRÈMEMENT IMPORTANT que le dispositif ne pas être lancé en présence de n'importe lequel de ce Habbalah. En lisant ceci, vous affranchissez la compagnie de n'importe quelle responsabilité pour des dommages résultant d'une telle utilisation... The rest of the manual is in High German. Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 15:25:21 EDT From: "Angela Smythe" Subject: IN> Nano Doom All this talk of Cybernetics, reminded me of an idea a friend of mine once had. He thought it before he saw Parasite Eve. Picture if you would a world where everbody had nanobots in them, to translate languages, heal wounds, and other good things. Then poeple start exploding. Have the bots malfunctioned, or were they designed this way? Is it a Vapula plot? One of his serevants gone mad? It is a renegade kryio of Jean? Has Saminga (and/or one of servants) made a new type of nano-Legion? It is the work of a Ethereal spirit Like 17 Electronica Turbine 42 (Liber Servitorum pg 82) with a some dark design? Has Jean himself gone mad? Or has something even more bizarre happened, is it a silicon soul? The answer is which ever one you like best for you campaign. Happy gaming Angela ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 12:28:50 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) There is also a certain amount of churn in gaming. That is, unless a game establishes itself as the game-of-choice for a group in the long term, the group will probably move on after a campaign or two. This is a big if, of course. You want your game to become the game-of-choice for many gamers, who will use it to run their 15-year mythic campaigns that will eventually get written into best selling trilogies by the GMs annoying little brother who will pretend he made it all up himself. But many groups don't work like that. Some don't run campaigns that long, some groups don't last that long, and if the game is liked but not that much, the group will play for a while and then stop. So someone somewhere needs to estimate how long the average "first" campaign in a new setting lasts, assuming a) an enthusiastic GM b) That the game does not become the longterm game of choice Let's say 2 years before the group gets a bit bored. So, 2 years into the line, you really need to be thinking of how to attract new players. Maybe they need some good one-off scenarios to encourage them to run the game when their regular campaign is off for some reason, or the GM hasn't had time to prepare (I'm biased -- I know people keep telling me that scenarios don't sell, but I know how useful a decent ready-to-go scenario can be to me). Maybe they need more model elves with extra spikey bits on them! (Games Workshop is a master at managing customer churn, they don't even bother putting out too many supplements because their business model relies on the fact that their customer base turns over once every three years). GURPS does pretty well out of this by dint of the worldbooks, which make it easy to switch genres and campaigns and still use the same rules. AD&D put out some lovely settings (basically offering the same amount of setting choice for fantasy-based games) which ... didn't sell in enough numbers to justify themselves -- I think people like to roll their own AD&D settings. CoC also has a wide range of settings, and had a new lease of life with Delta Green, but I wouldn't care to guess how well it actually sells. Chaosium are still just a small press. So where does this leave IN? In retrospect, it would have been great if the GMG had been the first supplement out after the main book. If I were doing marketing for SJ at the moment, I would seriously be considering offering a good package deal for people who buy the GMG and 2nd printing of IN main rules together, maybe throw the GM screen in as well, that has quite a decent scenario in it -- that'd be a nice incentive for new players to pick it up and look at it... Think of it as a loss leader. I'd also sit down and have a hard think about what might hook new players into the game, and what would encourage shops to display the stuff prominently so that they would notice it. Is this really obvious stuff, or is it just me? jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 15:30:22 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> What happened? - --On Tue, May 2, 2000 13:32 -0400 Gregory Gietzen wrote: > > Makes me think of a short blurb I read in a White Wolf supplement. In > Pentex: Subsidiaries, they were describing the Black Dog game > factory, where all the games revolve around angst and swearing and > were analyzing the "state of the industry." In the heading under > "Stan Paxton Games," they said a few things about always turning out > consistently quality games, but then went on to say "what their games > lack in spirit and imagination they make up for in charts and > sidebars." They also mentioned SP Games' latest foray into modernity > & ethical dilemmas, a game called _Holy Damnation_. "However, the > fact that no member of their staff has ever visited a nightclub, > kissed a member of the opposite sex or tried an illegal drug > hamstrung their efforts." > Reminds me of a blurb in one of the HERO system sourcebooks for Champions, in which the supervillian team had, as a prank, published their own game, with rules on how to role-play Steve Jackson. Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 12:35:34 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes > > > However - my problem is not in the Hi-Power situations as you would >place >it - but really in the crazy hack and slash players that would rather > go >out and hunt down demons than be involved in the plot > Help them to put a character together that has a good IC excuse to do all the things the players want to do (ie. be mad demon bashers), and then encourage them to build a personality around it ... jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:07:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> wenn die Engel fallen At 1:39 PM -0500 5/2/00, Sidley 310 wrote: >In keeping true to the current discussion of IN+Cyb/punk, I was cleaning out >my files when i recovered this Angelic Cyb/punkesque image. Are we permitted >to append to our posts to the list ? Sorry, but no -- no attachments to the list. I.e., no pictures, no funky documents, etc. What you _can_ do is put your image on a web page and tell us all the URL! - --Beth, Princess of List Admin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 16:11:57 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes - --On Tue, May 2, 2000 12:35 +0000 Jo Hart wrote: > >> >> > However - my problem is not in the Hi-Power situations as you >> > would >> place >> it - but really in the crazy hack and slash players that would >> rather > go out and hunt down demons than be involved in the plot >> > > Help them to put a character together that has a good IC excuse to do > all the things the players want to do (ie. be mad demon bashers), > and then encourage them to build a personality around it ... > These people have one personality, by in large - overconfident combat monster who truly *wants* to be Shaft, but doesn't quite pass muster. We tried this in our Shadowrun campaign once upon a time with a player who was just the munchkin's munchkin.* We got him to play something other than a combat monster with .001 essence: an actor. Fairly harmless, don't you think? After the funeral for his last character the team stopped off at the Shadowrun equivalent of a 7-11 or Circle-K while it was being held up. This is where we were supposed to meet the 'new guy'. Long story short. He ends up by himself in aisle 5 with a max-racial-attributes troll. He's an actor. Remember, just one personality. The exchange went something like this: ARCANE: I sweep his legs out from under him. GM: What's your Unarmed Combat skill? ARCANE: Uh...I don't have one. Can I default to acting? The troll laid him out with one blow. He then removed the Defiance taser he was carrying, held it against the actor's groin, and held the button down until the battery drained. I was in melee with some other guy in the dairy aisle. We both stopped fencing, looked at the sound, grabbed ourselves in sympathy, and then resumed the fight. During the mop-up, I figured I'd do him a favor and not leave him for the cops to find. I threw him on the nearest bus. I swear I thought it was a crosstown bus. He woke up in Corbin, Kentucky. This entire episode *STILL* didn't teach him his lesson. When he made it back to Seattle, the five of us were working our way towards an underground lab. To this purpose, we'd hired one of the dwarves in the underground to guide us there. At about the halfway point, Arcane decides he's going to save the team the cost of the dwarf's assistance. ARCANE: I draw my gun and point it at the dwarf's head. (Looks at the rest of us) Come on, guys. STONE(Me): (Looks at the other team members and shrugs) Okay. ALL: I draw my gun and point it at Arcane's head. ARCANE: Huh? (Confused look) This sort of thing was typical, until he finally blew himself up. Again. Someone had booby-trapped our communal apartment, and there was a timed explosive inside. The troll's enhanced hearing picked up the soft beeping of the timer, and the rest of us started putting ourselves as far from the house as possible. All except Arcane. He put his ear against the door because he didn't believe the troll physad had any idea what he was talking about.** His last words before the blast (and after six - SIX - warnings from the GM are-you-really-sure-you-want-to-do-this) were, "Hey guys! It's okay! It stopped beeping!" We found his ear. His next character was yet another overcybered street monster, who dressed like a mage so, "people would be afraid of me."*** Sometimes, some people simply *don't* learn, and unless they do and you're not running a humorous campaign, he needs to be sequestered because he WILL do something he thinks is brilliant at some point, and get everyone but him killed. Marc. Just Marc. * How do you lose all six clones in PARANOIA during character creation, I ask you? You think he'd keep his mouth shut after #4, but noooooo... ** Personally, if someone with a Body of 12 in that system wants to run and build a barricade against something, I'll cheerfully follow along. *** First rule of Shadowrun, all together now...? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:21:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books At 2:10 PM -0500 5/2/00, Amo Nympham wrote: >and if the reprint doesn't sell, then IN2/e is unlikely. Actually, don't fash yourself on the reprint -- the main book has been selling well enough, so _that_ isn't what you need to worry about. (And yeah, I was bummed about it too. The timing sucked.) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:36:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Evil Vapulan Tech: The Tetragramaphone >On Tue, 02 May 2000, neelk@cswcasa.com wrote: >[...](Habbalah don't >> suffer any problems understanding what was said -- they just get >> angry.) > >I find this at odss with the fact that Vap is a Habbie. Admittedly, as a >superior, he can easily make the Will roll, but still... It's not a problem for him -- he's God v2.0, in development... Why should he be bothered by exploiting the bugs in v1.0? O:> - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 15:32:43 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> What happened? From: "Marc Bowden" > > Reminds me of a blurb in one of the HERO system sourcebooks for > Champions, in which the supervillian team had, as a prank, published > their own game, with rules on how to role-play Steve Jackson. And this reminds me of the Wild Cards book that talked about Carnifex being assigned to a raid on "Jack Stevenson Games," which was under suspicion for computer crimes. *g* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 15:46:42 CDT From: "Sidley 310" Subject: Re: IN> Evil Vapulan Tech: The Tetragramaphone sic scribit Marc Bowden >Page 277, subpart J, in small type: >et lui il est EXTRÈMEMENT IMPORTANT que le dispositif ne pas être >lancé en >présence de n'importe lequel de ce Habbalah. En lisant ceci, >vous >affranchissez la compagnie de n'importe quelle responsabilité >pour des >dommages résultant d'une telle utilisation... >The rest of the manual is in High German. Will trans Ger>Eng | Fre > Eng. Givit to me :) S. http://w3.to/communion ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 2000 13:49:59 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) On Tue, 02 May 2000, Jonathan B Lotzer wrote: > Actually, IIRC, SJG has already done something like this. GURPS Update >basically took the 2nd ed and brought it into 3rd ed terms. Overall, a nice >product, a little brief and abstract in parts, but a good $15(?) reference >instead of having to buy a $25 book. I'm glad to see that SJ has the same kind of Good Ideas (tm) I have. The next question is obviously "Will the same be done for In Nomine?" - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:51:57 -0400 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> What happened? From: Prodigal > And this reminds me of the Wild Cards book that talked about Carnifex being > assigned to a raid on "Jack Stevenson Games," which was under suspicion for > computer crimes. *g* In a sourcebook for Mage: The Ascension, there's a bit of Technomancer lingo referred to as the "Sweep-'n'-sack." To quote: "Bursting into a place, killing everyone there, taking all data in possession and either replacing it with fake data or wiping the site clean. A few agents call this 'raiding SJ' for reasons that remain obscure to the rest of the Union." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 16:11:20 CDT From: "Sidley 310" Subject: IN> cybernetic Angels Here it is folks: http://samvarta.tripod.com/rustedangel.jpg and home port: http://www.digitalapocalypse.com/home.htm Enjoy(:O Sidley ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:29:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 1:49 PM -0700 5/2/00, Casca wrote: >> Actually, IIRC, SJG has already done something like this. GURPS Update [...] >I'm glad to see that SJ has the same kind of Good Ideas (tm) I have. The next >question is obviously "Will the same be done for In Nomine?" Depends on if it needs it -- currently, my plan is to fix errata and _reorg_. I don't really know how an "update book" would work for a reorg... Go though the index and say, "This is now on p. Y, that is now on p. X"? - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 17:35:24 -0400 From: "Galen G. Silversmith" Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) > Return-Path: emccoy@nh.ultranet.com > At 1:49 PM -0700 5/2/00, Casca wrote: > >> Actually, IIRC, SJG has already done something like this. GURPS > >> Update [...] > >I'm glad to see that SJ has the same kind of Good Ideas (tm) I have. > >The next question is obviously "Will the same be done for In Nomine?" > > Depends on if it needs it -- currently, my plan is to fix errata and > _reorg_. I don't really know how an "update book" would work for a > reorg... Go though the index and say, "This is now on p. Y, that is > now on p. X"? How large is the next edition going to be? Same page count as the current, or is it looking to expand? (Stuff like more on the superiors, better rules clarifications, a longer skill list, more on artifact creation, could all be used in a new edition) An update can't really help the reorg, but new/updated material certainly could be covered. > --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap > and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits > on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. > (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) You know, continuous speech voice recognizers have come a long way ... They have got to be better to deal with than the juggling-the-computer-accessory dance. Besides, Vapula would be happy to provide one for you... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:38:48 EDT From: SteelHarbinger@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1606 How do I remove myself from the mailing list? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 16:43:45 -0500 From: Jonathan B Lotzer Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 1:49 PM -0700 5/2/00, Casca wrote: > >> Actually, IIRC, SJG has already done something like this. GURPS Update [...] > >I'm glad to see that SJ has the same kind of Good Ideas (tm) I have. The next > >question is obviously "Will the same be done for In Nomine?" > > Depends on if it needs it -- currently, my plan is to fix errata and > _reorg_. I don't really know how an "update book" would work for a > reorg... Go though the index and say, "This is now on p. Y, that is > now on p. X"? > Then why should we buy this product? What will it offer that we will not already have? Sorry, but putting it that way doesn't sound so much that different from a SJG revised edition. I was hoping for more mood, possibly some fairly significant changes in underlying mechanics..maybe even a Y2K update to things...rather than something that could just as easily be cut and pasted. Jonathan B Lotzer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 14:40:29 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - > > I need a bit of inspiration... I am doing a basic write-up of Orc as the > > recently promoted Archangel of Networks, and I am struggling for a > > dissonance condition... One fitting with the cyberpunk genre in which >he'll > > exist might be best, but I'm not sure... > > > > Thoughts? > >It is dissonant for an Angel of Networks to stop the flow of >information. Ooooo.. good one, except that you want that to limited to the net, and also not necessary *maintain* the flow of information. Otherwise Angels of Networks could **Never Stop Talking**. It also means that an angel of networks couldn't ever move to strike down demon operated systems . . . Yiurg. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:53:48 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 14:41 -0400 5/2/00, Jonathan B Lotzer wrote: >Actually, IIRC, SJG has already done something like this. GURPS Update basically took the 2nd ed and brought it into 3rd ed terms. Overall, a nice product, a little brief and abstract in parts, but a good $15(?) reference instead of having to buy a $25 book. Yep. As a matter of fact, I compiled it, more or less, back in the days when I was just a playtester. I originally did it to see what all the rule changes were. I don't think it sold all that well; as I recall, only a small number of copies were printed. Most people (myself included) apparently just bought GURPS 3rd edition. Game companies have tried the "update" approach -- I seem to recall it was popular with some of the wargame crowd. In fact, the original GURPS books were designed to have the bindings cut, the pages 3-hole punched, and put in a loose-leaf binder; it may have been SJ's intent to publish revised pages as needed, but that never happened. I suspect the generic problems with 3-ring binders killed the idea. Frankly, I don't miss it much. I don't think book updates will ever be popular until publishing moves substantially to the web; then you may be able to buy "upgrade copies" just like you do for computer programs. I could also see "renting" books, or entire game-system lines, for a yearly fee. Not sure the economics would work, though -- the bane of net publishing. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 18:07:51 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books At 15:10 -0400 5/2/00, Amo Nympham wrote: > but I have a dilemma. >if the new main book is nothing but a reprint of the previous one, I can >find no justification for buying it. and neither can my players or the >people I got to buy the main book already, Reprints aren't typically aimed at existing players -- they're to keep the book in stock for new players coming into the line. This is especially critical for a core book. There's no reason for a current player to buy the new printing, really, if they already have the first printing -- you've probably either got all the errata, or don't care about it, and that's the main difference. All of the differences *should* be up on the web pages. > and if the reprint doesn't sell, >then IN2/e is unlikely. The core book is selling well enough; hopefully the reprint run will sell out in a relatively short time, and then maybe there will be a chance to do the new edition. I'll note that a number of GURPS books have gone through several reprintings before SJGames found the time/energy/money/expertise to do a major update on them. Only one or two books have been "broken" enough on first printing to mandate a quick 2nd edition. (GURPS Supers and GURPS Vehicles are the only ones to come to mind...) In Nomine isn't *that* broken. Somewhat painful to use at times, but not really bad. Given the circumstances (no one to do the rework quickly), the decision makes sense. > so I've push and prodded and gotten people to buy >books, promising when the sold out better editions would come out (since WW >has been revising all their books the groups has been seeing the flaws in >current IN books more and talking about 2/e). The other books from the early part of the line are more flawed; I'd guess there's more chance they'll get redone. (Essentially, that's what's been happening, in part, with the CPG and the Superiors books.) My guess is the Rev. Cycle books, per se, will never be reprinted, but the remaining important material (the realm stuff in H&H and the Marches) will eventually get incorporated into something new. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 15:07:18 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Flavortext and Worldview Beth sayz: >If there's now enough meat that it can have the Special Herbs >And Spices as well, that's certainly a datapoint... Which >vignettes do you like, which do you hate? (I'm counting the >little soundbites in the Liber Servitorum there, too...) Bright/Dark Dream Creation [LRelpp15-16] The story at the beginning of LReliquarum feels too mundane to me to be real flavor, the two characters may as well be humans. Then again the main character *is* a Impudite . . . Creation works for me because it describes supernatural processes, like the flow of essence and forces being bound into things, it gets at the metaphysics of things. Explaining the metaphysics behind things is what drew me to Mage and Werewolf, having that background to ground understanding of the game in. Also true of INS/MV, granted the metaphysics was just the religious background of the game, but it helped to explain why as well as how things happened. Patiel LServitorum pg27 is awesome. Its almost as though having known what transformed Patiel into what he is today, I don't really *need* a description of how he acts, thinks, feels, I can create all that all my own because I've been given insight into his *underlying properties*. Maybe that's it!! My FAVORITE part of ALL of the In Nomine line is the Nature of Songs in Liber Canticum, because it explains HOW SONGS WORK. It also explained the nature of the relationship between humans and the symphony, as well as celestials and ethereals. It's about *underlying properties* . . . (I think I want MORE Alain Dawson . . . !!!) To me, that's even more important than flavor and perhaps what I've been meaning by flavor; an explanation of the game's underlying cosmology. Woah, so that might be why WW books do so well. When you buy them, you're not just buying a game, but an entirely different world-view and explanation of how reality *could/might* work. Cool. >Now, I'll tell you what _I_ slaver and drool for, and that's >for SJGames to get the _fiction_ license. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. >Maybe someday. No telling what the asking price is. *sigh* That SJGames has to pay to get a fiction license? I thought anybody could write fiction and try and get it published. You have to purchase a license to go so?? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 15:49:41 -0700 From: "Robert Veneman-Hughes" Subject: RE: IN> In Nomine : Cybernetics and Cyberpunkesque Terrorism - > Perhaps, instead or promoting Orc (Networks? Archangel Word? > Nah.), you > merely need to make some adjustments to the most natural heir to > Cyberspace -- Blandine. After all, once your Eli finished > his meddling (and > probably was terminated by Heaven), Orc was no longer the > most important > entity for the computerized community. The Archangel of > Dreams was.... or, > from the sound of your word, the Demon Princess of Nightmares.... > The same thought occured to me... And I'm still thinking about it. In many ways, Orc-as-Archangel was a plot device to get some Net-based attunements into the game, as Orc (patron of the Free Exchange of Ideas) will give his choir attunements to anyone. One problem I have is that I'm not sure if Blandine has the resources or the temperment to handle the Net; Beleth certainly does, and I wasn't planning on giving Orc a counterpart, just the unholy triumvirate of Vapula, Mammon, and Beleth... Still, your point has merit. As for Eli being terminated by Heaven? I'm not sure what to do with Eli. Is he still AWOL? Dead? Back in his Cathedral, if poorly liked? I dunno... Sometime tonight you all should get Cybertech and Netrunning for IN2020. - -Robert ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 2000 15:53:47 -0700 From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) On Tue, 02 May 2000, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Depends on if it needs it -- currently, my plan is to fix errata and > _reorg_. I don't really know how an "update book" would work for a > reorg... Go though the index and say, "This is now on p. Y, that is > now on p. X"? Sod the index. It would take too much work and too much room, and besides I know where everything is anyway. No, I would want the meat of the reprint, frex revised CD tables, modifications to Superiors, revisions to mechanics, etc. - -- Casca "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 _______________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Many to choose from! 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