From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed May 3 15:34:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21796 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 15:34:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA04152 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 2000 15:31:42 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 15:31:42 -0500 Message-Id: <200005032031.PAA04152@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1610 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, May 3 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1610 In this digest: Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes IN> [ADMIN] S U B S C R I B I N G & UN-... Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes Re: IN> Pyramid Coverage of IN IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy Re: IN> Christian Mods Re: IN> Pyramid Coverage of IN Re: IN> Christian Mods Re: IN> Pyramid Coverage of IN Re: IN> Flavortext and Worldview Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Flavortext and Worldview Re: IN> Flavortext and Worldview Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1606 Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy (Was: Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes) Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1606 Fixing humans (brief) (Was Re: IN> Pushing Books) IN> Jophiel, Archangel of Temperance Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1606 Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:40:21 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes Your post was hilarious. But I frequently had this problem too: all thatmy players wanted (most of them) was some good fights and no investigation whatsoever.. So I did 2 things: 1) I made them play a 200% action adventure where no thinking was required. It's very easy to prepare, and all the combats make it last. Of course, they should get badly injured during the fights. Once they had plenty of what they asked for, they were more open minded for investigation scenarios. 2) I gave the most annoying player a discord (IN game, not ShadowRun) that prevents him to do what he usually does (e.g. merciful, fear, etc.) Actually, once, I had two Malakites of Laurence who were a bit brutal with my NPCs. So I got them kind of fall in love with each other (a well used song). It literally changed them... Oh, my ShadowRun Game Master just came down to talk to me. He gave me some advice for your ShadowRun Cyber-Monster. During the next run, just expose him to an EMP shockwave, it should "relax" him a bit... Good luck, Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:14:19 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> [ADMIN] S U B S C R I B I N G & UN-... This is a public service announcement by thy (thine?) list admin. [Note the date. Muwhahaha. *Ahem*] - ---------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:46:41 -0600 To: emccoy@nh.ultranet.com From: Majordomo@lists.io.com Subject: Welcome to in_nomine-l Reply-To: Majordomo@lists.io.com - -- Welcome to the in_nomine-l mailing list! Please save this message for future reference. Thank you. If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, send the following command in email to : unsubscribe Or you can send mail to with the following command in the body of your email message: unsubscribe in_nomine-l your@address.here If you ever need to get in contact with the owner of the list, (if you have trouble unsubscribing, or have questions about the list itself) send email to . This is the general rule for most mailing lists when you need to contact a human. - ---- And as a bonus... You can send mail to majordomo@lists.io.com which will _subscribe_ you! Just use the same formula and remove the "un." Lists you can un/subscribe to: in_nomine-l in_nomine-digest in_nomine_posters-l All of those allow yo to post to the list from the address you subscribed. If you try to subscribe an address other than the one you are sending the message from, the list admin will have to complete the majordomo instructions manually. The posters-l doesn't send you any email -- it just puts the address on a list that says, "This Person Is Allowed To Post." (This enables us to bounce spam without turning away those who read at one address and post from another (or several others), or who read from the digest on the web pages.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 08:42:45 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes - --On Wed, May 3, 2000 10:40 AM +0100 Laurent wrote: > Your post was hilarious. But I frequently had this problem too: all > thatmy players wanted (most of them) was some good fights and no > investigation whatsoever.. So I did 2 things: > > 1) I made them play a 200% action adventure where no thinking was > required. It's very easy to prepare, and all the combats make it > last. Of course, they should get badly injured during the fights. > Once they had plenty of what they asked for, they were more open > minded for investigation scenarios. > The runs I was describing *were* investigation scenarios. Spin that around in your head for a second. Our group (minus Arcane's player) are real shadowrunners in the sense of investigation, research, and slipping in and out without anyone knowing we were there. I love our GM because he assigns real, lasting consequences to unrestrained use of heavy weapons. I'm the detective - I'd end up on the losing end of that sort of exchange anyway. > 2) I gave the most annoying player a discord (IN game, not > ShadowRun) that prevents him to do what he usually does (e.g. > merciful, fear, etc.) Actually, once, I had two Malakites of > Laurence who were a bit brutal with my NPCs. So I got them kind of > fall in love with each other (a well used song). It literally > changed them... > Arcane bought a girlfriend at character creation. We though this might temper him a bit. He blew up her car. Twice. In one adventure. Total elapsed time from level 3 contact to actively hunting for his sorry hoop: 15 seconds. > Oh, my ShadowRun Game Master just came down to talk to me. He gave > me some advice for your ShadowRun Cyber-Monster. During the next > run, just expose him to an EMP shockwave, it should "relax" him a > bit... > He's gone, mercifully. After going through a character every few sessions he went to join a RIFTS campaign, where "(his) talents would be appreciated." I suppose everyone has their Nirvana. Marc. Just Marc. (Elohite Angel of Salvation) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 09:13:58 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Pyramid Coverage of IN At 11:55 PM -0500 5/2/00, Jonathan B Lotzer wrote: >[...] Perhaps there could be more interest if there >were more articles? S.Marsh, the new editor, _is_ more of an IN fan than Scott was, I believe. This might work to our advantage... >Another idea that I've been playing with: I know that I've asked this >question before, but why are we on a mailing list rather than a usenet >list? 1: not enough people to form anything but an alt.group. (A guess.) 2: Spam filters are now in place here! (a certainty!) 3: _I_ sure don't have any intention of going to a usenet board personally, even if one existed. Too much noise! >B) I'll admit it, I'm dreading going off for vacation for two weeks at >the end of Summer. I was away from my computer for a weekend and had >over 200 posts...how many more will build up over a two week period? Depends on the topics. I've seen anywhere from 5 to 100 over a weekend, myself. You can always s-u-b-s-c-r-i-b-e to the digest instead, for the duration. Or simply u-n-s-u-b entirely and catch up via the digest entries on the web. If your account fills up and starts bouncing, you _will_ get u-n-s-u-bbed. If your account _can_ fill up, then best to u-n-s-u-b now... - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 10:09:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy Aaron Medwin wrote: > In my campaign, the Seraphim Council decided to have the word go > to the only Malakite(yes, a Creationer) who was testing. Something > about embodying the Word through irony. :) I was going to recommend a Malakite or a Seraph, on the grounds that a, say, Seraph of Comedy is already a funny idea. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 10:18:03 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Christian Mods Tafka J. wrote: > *ahem* I'm not trying to knock anyone, really. It's just > maybe I find that when you _have_ no conflict, the story lacks > something in quantity. (Yes, fighting against Hell, can be > considered conflict, but then again it's a little one sided > really. I didn't say no politics; I even spoke in favor of heated arguements in Heaven. And Doctor TOC didn't exactly say no politics either -- he complained of the flavor of the politics. As you say, you have to have conflict, but there are different ways of handling it. The conflict between justice and mercy (which is what a lot of intra-Heaven conflict boils down to) can still be represented in the game without having angels *hate* each other or think each other evil. To me, either one but especially the latter seems very unangelic and destructive of the flavor of the game (except for a tale of someone sliding into a Fall). Also, the conflict of Heaven and Hell can be quite complex and moving, when you introduce wrinkles like dupes, innocent bystanders, unwilling tools, characters changing sides, and real uncertainty about which side is going to win (if not The War, which is probably not going to be decided in ones' own campaign, then this battle). Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:20:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Pyramid Coverage of IN > BUT, the major point that I wanted to make right > now...IN coverage in Pyramid. I did a search for topics..finding only > 25 articles over a 6 year period. If I figured it out correctly in > Excel, that came to around 85 days between articles..with as much as > over an entire year between postings. I'm not entirely sure if these > findings are correct..but they would seem to suggest that it just isn't > a big topic for Pyramid. Perhaps there could be more interest if there > were more articles? Here's the deal with Pyramid: Pyramid Magazine only has 3,500 readers at the moment. Additionally, because it's a subscription based service, it is only going to attact the people who are already interested in what it's offering. Add on top of it that it's a House Organ (although occasionally people claim it isn't), and you can glean the following: - -- People who are already into the games published by Steve Jackson Games are the subscriber base for Pyramid Magazine, so it is unlikely to appeal to the "get newbies into it" market. - -- The More Important Game (GURPS) is going to get top billing over all the other games, with decending order of games made by SJG, then games made by others. Add on top of this Steven's workload, his slushpile, and the fact that he wants to be very picky indeed when choosing articles, and you realize that running large number of In Nomine articles neither appeals to his audience nor gets him the more of the GURPS subscribers he needs to push his subscription base up. That's just reality. Of course, he just ran an In Nomine article this week, so you should currently be sated. Does this mean you shouldn't submit articles to Pyramid? No, of course not. Knock yourself out. But if your aim is to get new people into the game, then you're looking at the wrong place -- the people who read Pyramid and are looking for In Nomine already have and play In Nomine. Here's what you should do: - -- Write well thought out and well written reviews for RPG.NET. - -- Talk to Graveyard Greg about getting more In Nomine stuff in Gaming Outpost. - -- Write reviews instead of articles for Pyramid Magazine. - -- Go hit http://www.dmoz.org/Games/Roleplaying/Magazines/. See all those magazines that take reviews? Send your reviews there, too. See, reviews are what get people to buy games, not articles. Articles are targetted at people already playing the game. Reviews are what cause buzz. Now, I think it's way too late for much In Nomine buzz, but you're well off if you can get the names of the books at least in front of people. This is the _best_ possible thing you can do. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.pave-france.org/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. Eli says "Luckily for us, hostess snack cakes very rarely go on a mad rampage, except in times of extreme stress." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 11:02:19 -0400 From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: IN> Christian Mods Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > I didn't say no politics; I even spoke in favor of heated > arguements in Heaven. And Doctor TOC didn't exactly say no > politics either -- he complained of the flavor of the politics. Thanks for getting what I meant, Earl. Looking at what I wrote, I can see that it could be interpreted as a blanket "politics is bad", but that's not what I intended. I was indeed referring to the flavour of the politics. It seems that having factions of angels who might actively work against others, or might regard others as evil, goes against the very nature of what Heaven should be. I've got no problem with that sort of behaviour amongst demons, but among angels it seems wrong. Doctor TOC - -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" - Wu Name: Jive Talkin' Choirboy ICQ # 4814586 Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar alt.tv.sevendays FAQ - http://welcome.to/7-Days The TOC Files - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:04:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Pyramid Coverage of IN At 10:20 AM -0400 5/3/00, Emily Dresner wrote: [...] >Here's what you should do: [...] >This is the _best_ possible thing you can do. What she said. Probably in spades. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:14:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Flavortext and Worldview At 12:29 AM -0400 5/3/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >The In Nomine game universe is a derivative work from Croc's original >INS/MV game. Publishing fiction (commercially, not fan-fic) set in that >world requires a license, yes. What he said -- furthermore, there's been Croc-gameworld fiction in French over there. I don't recall if it was for INS/MV as well as for their dragon game, Scales, but I know they were doing it some. This not only puts it in the category of "try doing Star Trek (or Star Wars, or Pokemon) fiction without permission," but also, "try doing Dragonriders of Pern, or Barrayar, or Conan without permission." A license is, BTW, permission when dealing with financial things like that - it's a contract that probably boils down to, "We get to do X, and we pay you Y for that permission." _Man_ I want the fiction license... - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:28:40 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 12:22 AM -0400 5/3/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 17:43 -0400 5/2/00, Jonathan B Lotzer wrote: >>Then why should we buy this product? What will it offer that we will not >>already have? > >Not really a lot, if you don't mind the page-flipping in the current >edition. It wouldn't be so much for the current players, as to make it >less unfriendly to newcomers. Right. You see, I do agree with Sean (IIRC -- too little sleep!) that a sleek new book that doesn't have the orginazational problems of the old one would be far more likely to pick up newbies. A glass mostly full instead of half empty, to continue a metaphore from a few days back. > Not that anyone will complain if old customers >wanted the new version, but it wouldn't be the main target for the new >edition. Exactly. (I'm thinking of GURPS Ultra-Tech, second edition - revised, here. They totally reorganized it. I have three copies of Ultra- Tech sitting in front of me, but I could have lived just fine with the second edition (pre-revised) or even first and the errata. Heck, I didn't even _like_ the reorganization of 2/e-rev at first!) >> I was hoping for more mood, possibly some fairly significant >>changes in underlying mechanics.. > >I wouldn't hold my breath on either of those, though it might wind up with >a new set of vignettes, as GURPS IN did. Why would we be changing the mechanics anyway? They're geared for a particular effect, and the main "breakage" that I'd like to fix is simply inherent in the skills/d666 interaction. (I.e., that a lot of skills are very very low and humans are really only there for the roleplaying...) If the system bothers you -- _I_ can't think of any simpler method (I can think of many more complex ones!) to use that's more "fair." So if I want to play humans in IN, I'll go play GURPS IN... Other rules mods are suggested in the GMG. As for more mood -- I ask the question that has been asked in several playtests in the past. What rules are you willing to give up for more "mood"? (Not to mention, how do you define mood?) How much art? Will you buy your own magnifying glass to read the book, or should we bundle one with it when we move to 6 point type? Even with just including some of the rules that are errata, or should have been in the book to begin with, I can tell I'm going to eat into the pretty art. Frankly, _that's_ the thing that most endangers "Bright Dream/ Dark Dream" -- it's 17 pages long, and depending on how it goes, I may be able to think of so many other things to do with some of those pages. Natch, that would require a new pair of opening stories. So there'd be _something_ there... - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 00 11:39:21 -0500 From: Alec Fleschner Subject: Re: IN> Flavortext and Worldview >_Man_ I want the fiction license... No doubt. I've been working on a long story myself for a while, and would like to know if I could do anything with it other than hand it out to friends and say "isn't this cool?" On a related note, what about web publication? If I posten my story to the Internet, how massively bad would that be? I'm aware it's considered publication, but exactly *how* bad is it, and how much do most companies pursue legal action over them? Planewalker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:57:23 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Flavortext and Worldview At 11:39 AM -0500 5/3/00, Alec Fleschner wrote: >>_Man_ I want the fiction license... > >No doubt. I've been working on a long story myself for a while, and would >like to know if I could do anything with it other than hand it out to >friends and say "isn't this cool?" On a related note, what about web >publication? If I posten my story to the Internet, how massively bad >would that be? I'm aware it's considered publication, but exactly *how* >bad is it, and how much do most companies pursue legal action over them? Well, so far the fanfic on the INC doesn't seem to have drawn fire... I don't know how hard Croc pursues that aspect, if you're not making money off it. (SJGames seems to be fairly calm about it, too -- though if Croc asked them to crack down on it, I'm sure that would happen.) Mind, if you web-publish it and later the license _is_ aquired somehow, I suspect it would be harder to get the license-holder to make a dead-trees version. ("Why should we try to sell something people already have for free?") That's why I'm sitting on a big old pile of electronic files and occasionally sending them to SJ so he'll want to get the license... (I have no idea what the asking price for the license is, though.) As for other companies and fanfic... I really don't know. I hear that it's worth your life to let Valdemar fanfic be found, and Darkover is almost as verboten (or was, at least). I think TSR was trying to crack down on _everything_ for a while, but haven't heard anything about WotC being similiar in that regard. And, BTW, if you post a _whole long story_ to the list, I will be wroth. O:> Under-10K-teaser and URL, thats different. (Just be blessed sure it's not HTML/RTF/MIME!!! And use blank lines to separate paragraphs -- tabs aren't enough to make it easy to read...) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 11:46:50 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy From: "Earl Wajenberg" > Aaron Medwin wrote: > > > In my campaign, the Seraphim Council decided to have the word go > > to the only Malakite(yes, a Creationer) who was testing. Something > > about embodying the Word through irony. :) > > I was going to recommend a Malakite or a Seraph, on the grounds > that a, say, Seraph of Comedy is already a funny idea. I was going to suggest either a Malakite or Elohite, because having someone whose nature demands that they keep a straight face at all times embodying the word of Comedy has a twisted appeal to me. *g* Prodigal Demon of Calling In to Tech Support Without the Product Nearby ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:57:42 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 1:30 -0400 5/3/00, Jo Hart wrote: >>I wouldn't hold my breath on either of those, though it might wind up with >>a new set of vignettes, as GURPS IN did. > >But why? The current ones are great. I didn't really understand the need to >put new vignettes into GURPS: IN in any case. That was primarily SJ's call -- I think mostly for space reasons. He may have had some marketing issues too, since the GURPS audience is more rule-oriented than the IN audience, and may not like long vignettes as well. I don't really know for sure. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 13:51:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1606 On Wed, 3 May 2000, Laurent wrote: > David Edelstein wrote: > > <<< You follow the directions that came in the e-mail you received when you > first subscribed to this list, which you saved because you're not a total moron. > (...) >>> > > Now THAT is an objective and constructive remark. And most of all, it's useful. > I'm being sarcastic, in case you didn't notice... Wait... choosing to provide a useful response instead of a useless but sarcastic response? You obviously haven't been on the list with Mr. Edelstein very long, Laurent... :-) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "Anything sounds profound if you put it in quotation marks and sign it Anonymous." -- Anonymous ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 13:30:44 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 22:13 -0400 5/2/00, David Rodemaker wrote: > Perhaps SJG doesn't intend for every book to have a built in hook >for the player to want(I won't even say need) to buy but darn near every >book seems to have info in it that both a player and a GM would need/want. >LS being the most gratuitious in this sense. Roles and NPC's in the same >book... That one wasn't so much marketing as an opportunity issue. A fair amount of discussion (and confusion) about Roles had surfaced, so it seemed there was a clear need for it. The logical place for it (assuming it wouldn't fit in the main book, and we knew that wasn't on the table for revision soon, anyway), would be in the APG and IPG. But those weren't due for revision any time soon, either. The only other semi-reasonable place was in the GMG, but as I recall, that wasn't yet on the schedule when all this was going on. LS was, and it was a semi-reasonable thematic match, though far from ideal. So it wound up there, along with the servant stuff. Ultimately, I wouldn't be surprised to find this making its way into a revised APG, if that ever happens. Similar things have happened in other books. I think the poison and disease rules, and the heavy weapons stuff, made it into their current locations for much the same reason -- they needed to go *somewhere*, and rather than wait indefinitely for the best possible place, it was decided to put them into the next semi-plausible book. (If I recall right, they wound up in the CPG.) Yeah, it's a compromise, and sometimes not even a very good one. I also won't claim that the marketing aspects were overlooked there, but it wasn't, as far as I know, a driving factor. In my experience, the whole problem of producing gaming material in chunks dictated by how the book distribution chain (and the gaming market itself) works is somewhat painful. I really wish there were an easier way -- it may be there will be, when web-publishing comes into its own. We're doing this a little with GURPS IN, actually -- the appendix, which contains nothing but gory GURPS game-mechanics constructions for all the IN powers, would have been a waste of pages we desparately needed for other stuff. A *lot* of pages, as it turned out. But some GURPS players really demand this kind of stuff. So we talked it over with SJ and Kromm (the GURPS LE), and decided it would be made available on the SJGames web site, linked to the book page there. Ultimately, I expect games may be distributed using a Pyramid-like subscription model -- buy a year's access to the site, get access to anything put out for that year, with some guarantees about how much stuff will be added to the site. The subscription would be cheaper than what most gamers would buy in a year, and you could still produce more material, since it's a direct sale, bypassing all the middlemen. There are obviously other models, but Pyramid seems to have been successful with this one; I don't see why it wouldn't work for a product line. (There are market forces that make it politically difficult for an existing company to do this though -- the distribution chain doesn't *like* to be bypassed!) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 13:48:19 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy (Was: Re: IN> Anti-Munchkin - formerly : Player mistakes) At 0:19 -0400 5/3/00, Maurice Lane wrote: >2) Is there already an Angel of Comedy? Not in canon, as far as I know. > I suppose >that the opposition of Dark Humor might be a problem, >but it might be doable. Kobal would certainly work hard to make sure said angel was Funny. Said angel probably wouldn't appreciate Kobal's humor, though. > A Creationer would be my best >bet, but Choir is a puzzler. Mercurian seems _too_ >pat. I've been toying with putting a Kyrio of the Wind into my campaign as going for the Word of Laughter, which is similar. I forget at the moment, why I chose this particular Choir. Possibly because they understand the human perspective from such a broad set of viewpoints. I think I also had some notion that this Kyrio specialized in possessing stand-up comics. Wind is easier to explain -- laughter can be a powerful force for change. Also, a lot of humor depends on a sudden departure from routine expectations of how things are supposed to happen, either for the viewer/listener, or the comic subject. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 13:56:49 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy - --On Wed, May 3, 2000 11:46 AM -0500 Prodigal wrote: > From: "Earl Wajenberg" > > >> Aaron Medwin wrote: >> >> > In my campaign, the Seraphim Council decided to have the word go >> > to the only Malakite(yes, a Creationer) who was testing. >> > Something about embodying the Word through irony. :) >> "Around here, we take our humor black"? >> I was going to recommend a Malakite or a Seraph, on the grounds >> that a, say, Seraph of Comedy is already a funny idea. That's true. Hey, waitaminute... > > I was going to suggest either a Malakite or Elohite, because having > someone whose nature demands that they keep a straight face at all > times embodying the word of Comedy has a twisted appeal to me. *g* > Steven Wright. > Prodigal > Demon of Calling In to Tech Support Without the Product Nearby YOU'RE the guy! C'mere, I want to have a Word with you... Marc. Just Marc. Angel of Keeping the IT Guys from Choking the Living Daylights out of People who Call In to Tech Support Without the Product Nearby ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:01:20 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1606 At 1:51 PM -0400 5/3/00, Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: >On Wed, 3 May 2000, Laurent wrote: > > > Now THAT is an objective and constructive remark. And most of >all, it's useful. > > I'm being sarcastic, in case you didn't notice... > >Wait... choosing to provide a useful response instead of a useless but >sarcastic response? You obviously haven't been on the list with Mr. >Edelstein very long, Laurent... :-) Actually, he also pointed out the sarcasm explicitly, where M. Edelstein would simply leave it, its sarcasm implicit, a form of art unto itself. Good sarcasm is hard to come by in today's economy, and its masters should be revered. But, as with many programs and services to patronize the Humanities in America, the "bigger is better, show me chrome instead of poems" crowd is slowly whittling way any support, be it public or private, for such things. Which puts one in mind of Nybbas, somehow, but I digress (and get a shiny bit of essence from the Demon of ObReferences To Stay Technically On Topic.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:17:27 -0700 From: "Sean McCarthy" Subject: Fixing humans (brief) (Was Re: IN> Pushing Books) In Cyber Generation (R Talsorian, story of children growing up in the generation after most Cyberpunk stories are set) they have an interesting idea: Child skills. The names of the skills elude me, but essentially you might have child brawling, which is really great for beating up other children in gang fights. You may even have the highest possible skill and be a terror to your enemies. But that skill is counted at (IIRC) half value if you face an adult who has the Real(tm) skill in that area. This isn't a suggestion for official rule change, BTW, just an idea for coping. Perhaps, if the goal is to allow humans to have a chance in the system while still showing Celestials to be So Much More, we could devise some multiplier to skills or stats or both (Say +1/3 or +1/2 total...or maybe just double value for skills) and allow humans to use that when celestials aren't involved. This gives humans a chance of successful die rolls while still keeping the scale.. What do you think? ( I don't ... think ... this was in the GMG but my copy is at home and it's been a while. If I'm repeating something, please let me know that too.) Sean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 16:14:16 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Jophiel, Archangel of Temperance JOPHIEL, Archangel of Temperance The world exists by virtue of equilibrium. You're expecting a celestial party-pooper, right? No. More fundamentally, Jophiel is the Archangel of Harmony and the Golden Mean, equally opposed to asceticism and debauchery. In manner, bubbly and even seemingly airheaded, but with much practical wisdom. Jophiel is a cherub. Her name means "Beauty of God." She was created by Eli early in cosmic history, but became a servitor of Dominic as the hierarchy shaped up. She was one of the cherubs at the gate of Eden after Adam's Fall, while in his service. She became enamored of moderation during the excesses of the Grigori, but also began to lose respect for Dominic. Shortly after the Flood, she transferred to the service of Novalis, and soon thereafter was granted Word of Temperance. By the time they wrote "Nothing too much" on the stones at Delphi, she was an Archangel. At her hearings before the Seraphim Council for her Word, some asked if an Elohite wouldn't be more suitableto the Word of Temperance. She answered that every Elohite *represents* Temperance in some way or other; the Word doesn't need more representation; it needs someone to *defend* it. Champions of her Word on Earth have included the philosopher Epicurus; the essayist Joseph Addison, who did much to introduce modesty as an ingredient of good manners; Pres. James Madison, who designed the balance of powers in the U.S. consitution; Jane Austen, in whose novels kindness and good sense are the conquering virtues; Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics Anonymous; and columnists Abigail van Buren ("Dear Abby") and Judith Martin ("Miss Manners"). Carry Nation was *not* Jophiel's. Prohibition wasn't Jophiel's either, as she is still explaining to people. A good fictional portrait of a Soldier of Temperance would be Flora Post, the heroine of "Cold Comfort Farm" by Stella Gibbons. Jophiel has even gone so far as to create an Ethereal version of Flora, equipped her with the Higher Common Sense Attunement, and set her to work in the Marches. DISSONANCE CONDITION It is dissonant for angels of Temperance to behave in addictive, obsessive, compulsive, or fanatical ways. CHOIR ATTUNEMENTS Seraphim can use sarcasm, irony, metaphor, and fiction as long as they are confident they will not be misunderstood. Cherubim do not take dissonance from injury to their attuned, so long as they made a genuine effort to prevent the injury. Ophanim don't have to rush all the time; they just have to try to be punctual and can't dawdle. Elohim & Malakim can perceive a person's most unbalanced, addictive, or compulsive behaviors, the number of behaviors being equal to the Check Digit on their Perception roll. Kyriotates do not take dissonance from injury to their hosts, so long as they made genuine efforts to prevent it. Mercurians can do things like "injure" a human to perform surgery or knock a human out in order to save them from drowning or a burning building. SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS The Higher Common Sense: Roll against your Will. Similar to the Divine Logic attunement used by servitors of Destiny, it lets the servitor talk someone out of an intemperate course of action; they will remain convinced for a number of hours equal to the Check Digit, after which free will kicks back in, but one can hope they decide to stay convinced. Rehab: Roll against your Will and touch a willing subject. Relieves the subject of their most pressing addictive, compulsive, or obsessive behavior for a number of days equal to the Check Digit. Enough Is as Good as a Feast: Works the same as Rehab, but you prepare some consumable item. You do not need to touch the subject, or even pick out who the subject is. The item cannot be a sample to which the subject is addicted, e.g. a martini won't relieve an alcoholic of his thirst. DISTINCTIONS Vassal of Temperance: Look at a person and know what substance additions they have. Friend of the Temperate: Look at a person and know if they are a fanatic, obsessive, or a geas victim, and what the subject of the fixation is. Master of Moderation: Touching the subject and spending two Essence a day, for fourteen consecutive days, cure an addiction, obsessive-compulsive disorder, or bipolar disorder in a willing subject. RELATIONS Though a minor Archangel, she's very vocal at the Seraphim Council, since moderation is hard to find there. Jophiel has critical words to say about every other Archangel, since the mere fact of being Word-bound tends to impair one's temperance, unless Temperance is one's Word. But that same Word makes her balanced and fair in her criticism, which makes it better. Besides, even Archangels like to hear telling and justified critiques of OTHER Archangels. So she is, on the whole, moderately popular with the less fanatical Archangels. The more fanatcial ones grumble about sloth and lukewarmness. Allied: Novalis, Zadkiel, Marc Associated: Yves, Eli Hostile: Uriel (formerly), Dominic, David, Laurence In Hell, she is particularly opposed to Haagenti, Andrealphus, and Malthus. RITES * Settle a quarrel. * Act as moderator for eight hours, cumulative. * Be a designated driver for a drunk. * Stop a drunk from driving. * Work a week in a drug/alcohol rehab center. * Prepare a dietetic meal. * Feed someone malnourished. * Lead an exercise class. CHANCE TO SUMMON: 4 SUMMONING MODIFIERS: +1: A copy of the "Big Book" of Alcoholics Anonmyous +1: A book by Jane Austen +1: A faux-alcoholic beverage, like near-beer or a Bloodless Mary +1: A bottle of Prozac or similar product +2: A recovering addict clean for at least a year ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 15:28:18 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1606 "Rev. Pee Kitty" wrote: > Wait... choosing to provide a useful response instead of a useless but > sarcastic response? You obviously haven't been on the list with Mr. > Edelstein very long, Laurent... :-) Just gathering Essence from my Not Suffering Fools Rite.... - -David (Elohite or Habbalite, depending on my mood) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 15:32:01 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Best Choir for Angel of Comedy From: "Marc Bowden" > > --On Wed, May 3, 2000 11:46 AM -0500 Prodigal > wrote: > > > I was going to suggest either a Malakite or Elohite, because having > > someone whose nature demands that they keep a straight face at all > > times embodying the word of Comedy has a twisted appeal to me. *g* > > Steven Wright. I can't believe this didn't already occur to me! > > Prodigal > > Demon of Calling In to Tech Support Without the Product Nearby > > YOU'RE the guy! C'mere, I want to have a Word with you... > > Marc. Just Marc. > Angel of Keeping the IT Guys from Choking the Living Daylights out of > People who Call In to Tech Support Without the Product Nearby After working in tech support for the last few years, mine seemed to be the natural choice as far as demonic Words went. Especially when I started becoming reasonably proficient in troubleshooting without having to have the person I am helping at the keyboard. (Not that I like it, just that circumstances forced me to. *g*)) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1610 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.