From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun May 7 08:15:41 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24285 for ; Sun, 7 May 2000 08:15:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id IAA15980 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 7 May 2000 08:14:30 -0500 Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 08:14:30 -0500 Message-Id: <200005071314.IAA15980@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1614 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, May 7 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1614 In this digest: Re: IN> chico latino Re: IN> Core Book reprint question Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> New supplements Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) IN> Zactartol: Demon of Some Assembly Required Re: IN> Re: Fixing humans Re: IN> What happened? IN> [ADMIN] "angelofdarkness", contact me... Re: IN> What happened? Re: IN> What happened? Re: IN> What happened? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 00:56:17 +0100 From: "Christopher Lee" Subject: Re: IN> chico latino >> Invictus means 'the Conqueror.' The cult of Sol Invictus would be the cult >of >> the Conquering Sun.... All I remember is that they were a soldiers' >mystery >> religion, based on some of the bastardized Greco-egyptian Re-Helios mixes. > >> Do you have the etymology for this one? >> I believed it to mean "The Unconquered." > >both sound pretty cool, though i guess it could put a different slant on it >depending on which one you used... > > There is a slight problem with this. Only ONE of these is correct. Sol Invictus means the Unconquered or Undefeated Sun. It does not mean the Conqueror. It is probably best translated as Invincible as this is the sense. Sun the Conqueror would be Sol Victor. If you are still after stuff on Sol Invictus I can lay hands to it simply enough. I am a Roman historian type (not professionally but I have an MA) and I have a large pile of books! Earl is right that the Sol Invictus and Mithra cults are linked, but i am not sure they are the same thing. Mithra was and still is a Yazata in Zoroastrian religion, an angel/demigod that was how they subsumed the old pre-Zoroastrian pagan gods into the pantheon. He was many things, such as a sun-god like Apollo, a god of war, etc. It seems he was a major deity in pre-Zoroastrian Persia. The link to the later Roman Mithra cults and the Sol Invictus are less than clear. It is usually assumed that the Roman penetration of Mesopotamia (from the Severan emperors onwards, around 200AD +) led to the old Persian deity being adopted by the Roman army and taken back as a mystery cult. This coincides nicely with the upsurge of Mithraism in the Empire at this time. However, there is no evidence of the actual linkage of Mithra with the pre-Zoroastrian deity. It is just as likely that the Roman army developed a synchretistic religion drawing in various elements to form a new idea. Some of these were Persian ideas picked up in Mesopotamia, some Apollo, etc. There were also a large number of solar cults (it is a common pre-monotheistic religion) in the Empire. One example would be Elagabal the Syrian sun-god. He was a major diety of the Middle East and probably antedates the Mithra cult. The emperor Elagabalus in the early 3rd centruy was a famous devotee. This religion is credited with bizarre rites. For example it was said that the priests were castrated. The emperor allegedly wanted to cut off his genitals. It seems that the Romans felt it had orgiastic beliefs and was prone to hedonism. The Sol Invictus cult looks like another synchretistic faith. It is essentially a solar cult with elements of others drawn in, such as Elegabal and Mithra. At this time in the Roman Empire a number of new religions were emerging, as people sought for a new spirituality as the old world order broke down. These include the mystery religions such as Mithraism, cults like Christianity (not a new religion, but a growing power) and Neo-Platonism. In terms of this development Mithraism is a hero or saviour cult, such as Christianity. Mithra was the saviour fiigure, whose salvation powers were symbolised by his overcoming a bull. Sol Invictus was a solar cult with the sun as the supreme object of worship. No doubt there were links and similarities, it is as much a matter of emphasis as anything else. Christopher Lee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 01:02:05 +0100 From: "Christopher Lee" Subject: Re: IN> Core Book reprint question >The question for y'all is, would you or your players be interested in a >hardcover reprint of the rules at that price? (Obviously, you're a bad >sample, since almost all of you *have* the rules, but if you could ask >around and get back with me, that would be great.) > Many of my friends are keen but generally feel they have enough systems at present. A common comment is "I like IN and I would snap up a second-hand copy". If it's any consolation Beth, there is rarely if ever a second-hand copy in my neck of the woods, which is unusual and demonstrates a certain amount of devotion among local adherents (I know the game sold well in the area). I suspect GURPS In Nomine will shift fast for this very reason - people have GURPS and fancy IN and a GURPS book will be less than a core IN book, especially a hardback. It's only a little bit of cash but there you go... Sadly though my local games shop has three copies of Superiors 2 on the shelf gathering dust, You are Here and the Liber Servitorum also have not sold well. Everything else has gone well though ahnd I had a real struggle acquiring a copy of the GMs guide (I suffered some financial embarassment about the time it came out and I couldn't afford it, and I have been playing catch up ever since I sorted myself out). Christopher Lee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 01:14:56 +0100 From: "Christopher Lee" Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) >> may be able to think of so many other things to do with some of those >> pages. Natch, that would require a new pair of opening stories. So >> there'd be _something_ there... Am I the only person who thinks the stories are the worst thing about the game? They sometimes approach the sort of pompous, pretentious wastes of space that turned me off White Wolf games as soon as I looked at them! I don't mind a bit of flavour text, but I mean a few paragraphs. I don't like the feeling that I'm paying for pages of scribbling I'm never going to read, especially as the quality of the system is also generally so good. If flavour text goes in, I would personally prefer to see prose rather than some half-baked fiction. Wow, I bet that makes me unpopular! No offence meant, I'm sure some people like the stories, it's just a bee I've had in my bonnet all along the IN line. On a similar theme. If you're going to republish the core book how about rewriting it a bit. The other books are really clear, well-laid out, etc, but I always thought the core book was hard to use. The sections are not clearly enough defined (with font variations, page breaks, etc) and the order of the rules is illogical and confusing. Add to that a poor index and you've got one hard to read book! Other than that the line has been excellent. And I'm not just saying that from my own opinion, several of my friends who have played the game said they found it hard to read, confusing, etc. We ended up writing a very basic crib sheet and our own index so we could find the relevant sections. Christopher Lee Now I feel like a real moaner, so just let me say - I love the game. I love the background which is superb and just gets better. The detail is rich and exciting without being overly proscriptive or constricting in terms of player options. I often find myself evangelising for the game, primarily to inveterate White Wolf game players. I always tell them, imagine a game world where you had great detail, powerful exotic characters and you weren't constrained and pigeon-holed into clans or tribes or whatever that tell you how to dress, how to eat, when to go to the toilet, etc. I think IN has hit exactly the right balance of 'classes' or 'subtypes' of characters whilst allowing individual flexibility and the scope for say one Balseraph to be entirely different to the next. Keep it up! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 01:47:35 +0100 From: "Christopher Lee" Subject: Re: IN> New supplements SurturZ (?????????) wrote: The CPG was simply a rehash of rules >that appeared in the revelations cycle and it would be hard to see why an >EPG wouldn't be a rehash of "The Marches". Can I just disagree here!? I thought CPG was one of the best IN supplements (if not THE best - perhaps GMs Guide excepted). It was no more a rehash than IPG or APG, like those it was a development of existing material, but that is how RPGs tend to grow up. I thought it was well-written, intersting, thorough and added a really strong new dimension. I would point out that IN has grown in a very balanced way. What we have seen is more detail, more depth, more colour, more organic growth that gradually fills in gaps. What we have not seen are White Wolf style power-leaps with every supplement. SJG do not spring some new idea every 6 months that adds a whole new power level or some sick new abilities, only to be surpassed by the next new ideas supplement. All the IN line has been consistent and although it is developmental and not incremental in growth I see that as a strength. If you want games that constantly trawl up new breakthroughs of exciting new power levels and entire graft-ons of new PC types, sub-groups, clans, whatever, you know where to get them! EPG is another area of the background that needs fleshing out. If it half as good as the CPG I will be very pleased! (And if I see another article on >how to run a mixed campaign I'll scream). Fair point -we can all handle this, it is a very personal thing and there have been plenty of ideas floated. > >The Grigori - not a whole book, but say a quarter of one? These are definitely in need of more treatment. > >IN History - write ups of Old Superiors (esp Uriel) I would go for this. Many of the other supplements are similar exercises. Although this is touched on in GMG it is pretty much skated over. > >How about "IN: Purity Crusade" (what's Latin for 'Purity Crusade'?) which >focuses on the Purity Crusade Wouldn't this be best in the same book as the above? How about a book about IN history with some infamous events of the past fleshed out, such as the Grigori, the old superiors, the Purity Crusade, Celestial influences on some world events, etc, etc? Purity Crusade in Latin? I think Crusade is French (?). It has distinct Christian connotations so a more neutral idea might be the Purity Campaign or War. 'Stipendium Castimoniae' (Campaign of Purity) 'Bellum Castimoniae' (War of Purity) 'Bellum Sinceri' (the Pure War) 'Bellum Emendatum' (the War in Order to Purify) 'Bellum Emendatu' (the War for Purification) 'Bellum Purgatum' (the War in Order to Purify) 'Bellum Purgatu' My personal favourite: 'Bellum de Purgata' - the War of Pureness ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 22:30:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 1:14 AM +0100 5/7/00, Christopher Lee wrote: >On a similar theme. If you're going to republish the core book how about >rewriting it a bit. That's what Second Edition would be. I had _intended_ to be able to sit down and revamp the thing by the time it would have needed to be reprinted. I had a 2-month-preemie very unexpectdly. *sigh* Believe me, I was and am still itching to get my hands into the books guts up to the elbows and move things around. But that would be a full second edition with lots of munging around that there isn't time to do. *sigh*sigh* (Yeah, I know the organization sucks -- you should hear me telling new vict--ah, buyers how to read it. [For the morbidly curious... Read from the stories up to the page about the d666. Go read about the Choirs, Bands, and Superiors. Go back and read through the Songs and stuff, then read the last bit in the back. And remember that the Songs _mechanics_ are split between the Songs section and the Mr. Bubblehead picture.] And that's why people are griping about the reprint -- everyone _knows_ I've been planning to make a second edition, and when we hear about a _reprint_, we all (yes, me included!) feel let down. *sigh*sigh*sigh* - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 21:40:07 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Christopher Lee wrote: > Am I the only person who thinks the stories are the worst thing about the game? You may not be the only one, but once again -- some people love 'em, some people hate 'em. What's the maximally beneficial thing to do? At least half the people on this list who complain about "X" seem to assume that whatever THEY like or dislike is representative of everyone, which makes their opinions essentially worthless. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 23:01:59 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 9:40 PM -0500 5/6/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Christopher Lee wrote: > > Am I the only person who thinks the stories are the worst thing >about the game? > >You may not be the only one, but once again -- some people love 'em, >some people hate 'em. What's the maximally beneficial thing to do? At >least half the people on this list who complain about "X" seem to assume >that whatever THEY like or dislike is representative of everyone, which >makes their opinions essentially worthless. This I have to disagree with -- the argumentative essay (which an opinion piece is, at heart) is under no regulation to point out other viewpoints or the possibility of other viewpoints. If someone writes a post on how the "Bobiel and Annascarpini vignette" in front of the Liber Chuck blows total chunks, they don't have to say 'of course, other people may love it,' anywhere in the post. They can just claim it blows chunks, and let the people who like Bobiel and Annascarpini respond in their own way. Further, reviewers don't generally write their opinion pieces with those disclaimers either. They're reviewing -- stating their opinion and no one else's -- and it's not their business to provide alternate viewpoints or interpretations. I'd say how an opinion is stated -- whether it seems well thought out or knee-jerk -- shows that opinion's worth far more than any "your mileage may vary" statement they may throw in. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 22:22:27 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) Whistling in the Dark wrote: > This I have to disagree with -- the argumentative essay (which an > opinion piece is, at heart) is under no regulation to point out other > viewpoints or the possibility of other viewpoints. If someone writes > a post on how the "Bobiel and Annascarpini vignette" in front of the > Liber Chuck blows total chunks, they don't have to say 'of course, > other people may love it,' anywhere in the post. They can just claim > it blows chunks, and let the people who like Bobiel and Annascarpini > respond in their own way. True, but then all their opinion means is "One vote against vignettes." Which has a small amount of value, yes -- but when they proceed to get worked up about this, they tend to lose sight of the fact that their opinion is not objective fact. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 23:35:07 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Pushing Books (Re: Players and Supplements) At 10:22 PM -0500 5/6/00, David Edelstein wrote: >Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >True, but then all their opinion means is "One vote against vignettes." >Which has a small amount of value, yes -- but when they proceed to get >worked up about this, they tend to lose sight of the fact that their >opinion is not objective fact. *That* I agree with. But a sense of perspective is the rarest thing in the universe. Well, in my opinion anyway. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 00:36:23 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: IN> Zactartol: Demon of Some Assembly Required As requested, here's the Demon of Some Assembly Required. I made him a touch more powerful than might be expected, to make him a good opponent in a campaign. To reduce his power slightly, drop one of his Ethereal forces (and two levels of Intelligence and Precision) and his Numinous Corpus Songs. Comments (and other takes on the Word) more than welcome! +++ "Daniel -- we don't have *time* for this." Annie's voice was strained. "And you're making too much noise. Let's just wrap the box before Bobby hears you." Daniel ignored Ann, and looked over the instructions again. Insert retaining bolt into multi-gear assembly as shown in figure three -- where was the bloody retaining bolt supposed to be? Nothing looked like it... "*Daniel.*" "A six year old boy doesn't want to unwrap a *box* Christmas morning," Daniel half-growled. "He wants to see a *bike.* Bobby is going to have a *bike* for Christmas, not a *box.*" "Santa? Santa!" Annie suppressed a word you don't say on Christmas Eve, running to intercept the child on the stairs. Daniel jerked and swore, cutting his hand on the gear assembly. He felt a flush-like panic and dropped the bits with a clatter, throwing the box over the half-completed frame and trying to hide it from Bobby with his body. Outside the window, the watching man slowly smiled. He cuddled a calico cat, stroking its fur gently as he watched the parents desperately trying to preserve Christmas for their son. He looked at the shiny retaining bolt, just barely visible under the easy chair, and kissed the top of the cat's head. "Verrrrry good," he crooned, then turned and walked to the street. "Sleigh bells ring, are you listenin'," he sung under his breath. "While the snow... it is glistenin' -- a beautiful sight, we're happy tonight...." He half smiled, walking across to the Andersons' place -- they had twin girls who'd asked Santa for Dollhouses. Zactartol Balseraph Captain of Repartee Demon of Some Assembly Required CORPOREAL: 4 Strength:6 Agility:12 ETHEREAL: 5 Intelligence:11 Precision:11 CELESTIAL: 4 Will:9 Perception:9 Word Forces=9 (Zactartol is Fallen) Vessels: Human Male/4 (Charisma+1); Squirrel/2 Role: Zachary Talbot (Freelance Technical Writer)/3 Servants: 3 Imp Familiars/4 (each class 3, all in cat vessels) Skills: Acrobatics/2; Artistry (Technical Writing)/6; Computer Operation/2; Dodge/3; Electronics/5; Emote/3; Engineering/6; Fast-Talk/3; Fighting/4; Languages (Taiwanese/3; German/3; Spanish/3; Chinese/3; Japanese/3; French/3); Ranged Weapon/2; Savoir-Faire/2; Songs: Affinity (Corporeal/1); Artifacts (Corporeal/2); Machines (Corporeal/3; Ethereal/3; Celestial/3); Motion (Ethereal/1; Celestial/1); Numinous Corpus (Claws/2; Tail/5; Tongue/5; Wings/1); Tongues (Corporeal/2); Attunements: Balseraph of Dark Humor; Prank; Rant of Scorn; Secretly Replaced; Captain of Repartee; Demon of Some Assembly Required Special Rites: Kobal's "Cause a humorously improbably fatal 'accident'". Rite of Some Assembly Included: cause a victim to publicly call someone to construct a project for them after spending at least an hour trying to assemble it themselves. Zactartol can bestow this rite on others. Special Attunement: Demon of Some Assembly Required: Zactartol can use his Balseraph attunement when writing instructions for a project. The resulting instructions will appear logical and simple when read, even if they are completely incomprehensible and missing steps. In the 1800's, America discovered Mail Order Shopping. This was a positive boon to the farmers of rural America, particularly in the American Midwest. It meant being able to order supplies, staples and luxuries alike by post. Suddenly, country living didn't mean doing without some of the sundries men and women had in the cities. Companies like L. L. Beans of Maine and Sears and Roebuck, Company built empires based on shipping via post. However, shipping of all kinds was priced both by weight and by volume. Obviously, the larger and more elaborate a product might be, the more expensive it would be to ship. What's more, finished goods broke more easily, especially along joints. The obvious solution was the creation of kits. By partially assembling intricate sections but leaving simpler parts separate, boxes could be condensed into smaller spaces and more easily, inexpensively and safely shipped. When the product arrived, it would be easily assembled by the purchaser. It was an excellent innovation, and strengthened the Word of Trade considerably. "Some assembly required" became a common phrase in advertising. The Prince of Dark Humor *loved* it. First off, it was often ironic -- "some" assembly might mean connecting three pieces or assembling three hundred parts. It sounded so simple, but might be very complex indeed. And it had overtones of Technology -- after all, those high tech toys had to be put together. Kobal had been looking for ways to cozy up to Vapula. This looked like a perfect marriage of the technical and the humorous -- and more importantly, Vapula hadn't started petitioning for one of *his* Servitors to hold the Word of Some Assembly Required yet, so there wasn't much chance of offending Vapula. Kobal discreetly began testing his Servitors for the Word -- sending them on missions to subtly draw the humor out of the concept, without killing it off outright. After several such missions, he chose to sponsor Zactartol, a Captain of Repartee, for the Word. Lucifer met with Zactartol and agreed with the choice. Zactartol was once Zachiriel, a Seraph of Lightning who specialized in engineering projects. He had gradually grown disdainful of Jean's proscriptions when he found himself working with humans in 1567 -- helping to design and build the Bridge of Santa Trinita with Bartolommeo Ammannati. It was distinctive for its innovative elliptical arches, and Ammannati often consulted with his engineers and designers -- asking if they could see a way to make the bridge better. Zachiriel found himself balancing between lying to the man he was helping to illuminate and giving him more Divine technology than he had been approved to give. The combination made him dissonant. In the end, having developed both Discord and a hearty disdain for Heaven and for Jean and Jean's works, Zactartol stormed away from the project and Jumped into Hell's waiting arms. Once there he let himself be recruited by Kobal, happily mocking man's achievements and scientific works, in opposition to his old way of life. He had a savage wit, delighting in cutting down 'visionaries' or other overconfident men who put themselves at the head of a project. This worked hand in hand with Kobal's plans for the Word of Some Assembly Required. "Zactartol," when being tested, chose to make the purchasers look ridiculous rather than undermine the assembly concept itself. He recognized that men (and women) took a lot a pride in their ability, whether deserved or not. By simply making the instructions hard to follow or switching a few parts in a few boxes, he could make that person the object of derision and ridicule. Zactartol has thrown himself into his Word with all his heart. Taking a Role as a freelance technical writer, "Zachary" has mastered the art of writing instructions that look simple on first inspection but are nigh impossible to follow in practice. He also carefully encourages the entire concept of partially assembled and unassembled kits. Today, any number of stores carry toys, equipment and furniture - -- particularly office furniture -- that requires assembly at home. This ranges from cheap pressboard with shelf paper on it to highly expensive wooden kits that need to be stained and varnished before assembly. Zactartol's favorite 'innovation' is packing multiple unit instructions with single units, so that customers need to decide which model they're assembling from the list, often going down blind alleys that require them to go back several steps and start over. He delights in doubling the confusion by adding instructions in eight different languages on the same page, hopelessly muddling the layout. His favorite experience is watching a human try to assemble something that seems simple, cutting himself and making a fool out of himself in the process, only to resort to asking for help or calling a professional to assemble it for him. He's delighted by the number of assembly services that have sprung up and the lengths people will go *not* to use them until they don't have a shred of dignity left. In terms of his Word, Zactartol is carefully building "Assembly" up - -- the World Wide Web has added whole new dimensions to the process, as mail order becomes online ordering, and more and more complex items arrive with assembly instructions -- from computer components that need to be installed into computers to stereo equipment that needs to be wired together. To further these new projects, Zactartol has been ingratiating himself with various Servitors of Technology. However, he tends to be sarcastic about "innovation," owing to the circumstances of his Fall, and all too often he turns a Vapulan project into an excuse to make Vapula's assemblers look like idiots. Further, he comes close to pushing "do it yourselfers" who might turn into inventors to leave even simple projects to the experts rather than look like fools *again,* and Vapula doesn't appreciate that. Zactartol's long term goals involve building on his Word even further. He recognizes there is just so far "some assembly required" can go, but thinks that by working hard and building up his reputation, he can position himself for a Word upgrade to Do It Yourselfers -- a Word with considerably more breadth. However, while there's great comedic potential in that Word, he sees potential beyond humor which could grow into an entirely new base of power. He's very careful to keep *those* ambitions to himself, lest Kobal hear. His other current celestial "goal" is to learn the Corporeal Song of Disjunction -- a very useful Song for his work. He is making overtures to some Servitors of Malphas in hopes of being taught this Song. In person, "Zachary" tries to look distinguished, wearing slightly formal clothing even in casual situations. He is always helpful to those around him -- especially when they need a helping hand with their home projects. He's very good at making fun of his beneficiaries, especially subtly. He doesn't just help them with hard projects, he makes them look easy (and his "friends" look stupid). He has three Imp familars as servants -- all in cat vessels. They're experts at hiding parts, bolts, screws, tools, pages of instructions... all kinds of things that take a simple project and make it impossible. And, as a Word-bound and Distincted Servitor of Kobal, Zactartol is a powerful demon in his own right. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 06:54:18 +0100 (BST) From: Nicola McBlane Subject: Re: IN> Re: Fixing humans On Sat, 6 May 2000, Galen G. Silversmith wrote: > Miracles are Miracles. They *should* be rarefied and usually unnecessary. Hmm, not quite sure I'd agree with that on the whole. It certainly woudl how I envisage the style of IN. Depends on the scale of the miracle too. You get small miracles. > > On the other hand, I'm running a mortal's game, and have this problem from > the other side. Even using the human advantages from the CPG, the players > still have problems. (the part is currently 2 5-force humans, 1 6-force > mundane and one 6-force sorcerer.) Getting them to get successful > perception rolls, or skill use under duress is hard, and I have to fudge > with the numbers constantly for the story to flow at all. The characters > only have so many points in skills (20-24, plus some from discord/disads), > and it makes it difficult for the story, esp since they generally have > robust characters and lots of points went into background skills, rather > than picking the most practical. > Ewww. I've tried generating mortal characters, and did some sample rolling. On the whole I went back to celestial characters because I wanted to have a chance of achieving something. I think the best fix is to not tie skill points to Forces. I see Celestials are more using their innate abilities (aka defaulting from stats except in their areas of specialization) compared to mortals who when they want to do something have to go out and learn it. Not sure how many more points to give them though. Maybe the same as 9 Forcers get atm, but with strong hints that spending it on skills would be a good idea. And letting them buy a skill called Notice or Awareness or something. > > Basically, they wanted celestials to be able to outdo humans, but they > > wanted them to do it with miracles rather than carrying on like > > Batman. Beefing up humans' Forces, but giving celestials a lot of > > extra points on magical abilities seems like a reasonable way of > > achieving that goal. > I see your point about Batman yes. And I agree with your players on that point. That said I'm a little wary about giving them lots of funky stuff (kewl powerz). How much do they use their Resonances? > What I'm thinking of changing for my campaign is some mishmash of: > giving mortals a level or two of toughness automatically (and > moving the max up accordingly), > changing the skill point:forces ration from 4:1 to 5:1 or 6:1 > in addition to the 'bonus' basic skill set. > Moving base mortal to 6 forces, and mortal++ to 7. > > The average mortal forces and average mortal stats don't quite work IIRC. That seems like an ok fix to me. Let me know how it works out in play, I'd be interested to know. Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 08:19:28 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> What happened? At 1:04 PM -0400 5/4/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >Personally, I think the level of detail in the APG and IPG are adequate for >most of the above. I wouldn't object to more "color" about the Choirs and >Bands, but some of that is being handled in the Superiors books; I think >the rest would be better handled in setting books (i.e., better material >on Heaven and Hell, and what people do there). I'm up far too early (grumpy baby) sooooo... Utterly, totally, I-just-now-thought-of-it-and-TPTB-haven't-even-*heard*- about-this... I remember space being tight in the APG & IPG -- while a "less art" option would help, what about a 144 page version instead oh 128 pages? Would it be worthwhile, for the extra expense? What could I add...? Hmm, hmm... Is this likely to happen? Not anytime soon, if ever. But it was something I had pure fangirl (_not_ LE) curiosity about. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 08:29:02 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> [ADMIN] "angelofdarkness", contact me... > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- >angelofdarkness@mail.optusnet.com.au > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >... while talking to mail2.optusnet.com.au.: >>>> RCPT To: ><<< 550 ... User unknown > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- >angelofdarkness@optusnet.com.au > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >... while talking to mail2.optusnet.com.au.: >>>> RCPT To: ><<< 550 ... User unknown It's looking like your best bet is to s-u-b-scribe to the poster's list and read the digests on the web... Try contacting me directly and we can try to find an address that doesn't bounce. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 13:22:11 +0100 (BST) From: Nicola McBlane Subject: Re: IN> What happened? On Sun, 7 May 2000, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > I'm up far too early (grumpy baby) sooooo... *comfort* > > Utterly, totally, I-just-now-thought-of-it-and-TPTB-haven't-even-*heard*- > about-this... Writing as a private person rather than LE recognised, no really. > > I remember space being tight in the APG & IPG -- while a "less art" option > would help, what about a 144 page version instead oh 128 pages? Would it > be worthwhile, for the extra expense? What could I add...? Hmm, hmm... > What more would you have covered? Then again I'm in the very small minority of liking the expanded resonance tables, and think they are all very appropriate to their Choir/Band. The extra stuff on Choirs and Bands I can think of is all Superior related and therefore fits into the Superior Book Blah Number. (not dissing the names - I think the invidual names for the Sup books are very good, but easy way to refer to them). I thought the APG was very art light but I've not read it in a while I admit. That said the art in it was not the IN line's best to put it nicely. All in my not even remotely humble opinion of course. Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 08:52:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> What happened? At 1:22 PM +0100 5/7/00, Nicola McBlane wrote: >> Utterly, totally, I-just-now-thought-of-it-and-TPTB-haven't-even-*heard*- >> about-this... >Writing as a private person rather than LE recognised, no really. (Keeping this here for hopefully obvious reasons...) >> I remember space being tight in the APG & IPG -- while a "less art" option >> would help, what about a 144 page version instead oh 128 pages? Would it >> be worthwhile, for the extra expense? What could I add...? Hmm, hmm... >What more would you have covered? Hmmmm.... I'm not sure -- I just remember space being tight... Probably things like: * vignettes * more detail on Malakim and "evil honor" humans * Orphans * Angelic society * Menunim * Grigori * Heavenly Choirs * Inventing a minor Choir * Just More Stuff -- I'm sure the authors could have filled it... All of the above is a mix of what I remember (it's been a while) and off-the-top-of-my-sleep-deprived-head ideas. >Then again I'm in the very small >minority of liking the expanded resonance tables, Page-flipping masochist... O:> >thought the APG was very art light but I've not read it in a while I >admit. That said the art in it was not the IN line's best to put it >nicely. How about "a lot of it sucked"? (There were some nice pieces, I think, but some really awful, useless ones.) >All in my not even remotely humble opinion of course. We're off in hypothetical-land. Why be humble? O:> - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 14:14:21 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> What happened? On Sun, 7 May 2000, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Writing as a private person rather than LE recognised, no really. > > (Keeping this here for hopefully obvious reasons...) I'll follow your example but I won't be replying this every time :) > >What more would you have covered? > > Hmmmm.... I'm not sure -- I just remember space being tight... > > Probably things like: > * vignettes I thought there was enough of those already, and I quite liked the existing ones. But then I'm not overly fond of them - I hate short stories in general - just as I'm getting to like the char the story is over. > * more detail on Malakim and "evil honor" humans Hmm, Malakim are one of my pet rants, so I'll leave this one alone, probably better brought up in a seperate topic if at all. (Rough summary of my objection - Angels of Honour not Angels of Kicking A*se) > * Orphans Orphan Angels I assume? > * Angelic society Hmm - I think Heaven and Hell both need separate sourcebooks for that kind of thing - but the Superior books seem to be covering it well enough... > * Menunim Hmm - sorry if you like them, but I see them as practically unplayable. And I don't see how resonating on people to give them Hope is less a violation of Free Will than talking to someone. > * Grigori > * Heavenly Choirs > * Inventing a minor Choir YES, Yes and yes. More minor Choirs and Bands needed. I really liked the ones someone wrote up - can't rem who sorry. > * Just More Stuff -- I'm sure the authors could have filled it... > Heh :) > All of the above is a mix of what I remember (it's been a while) and > off-the-top-of-my-sleep-deprived-head ideas. > Fair enough - disclaimer accepted :) > >Then again I'm in the very small > >minority of liking the expanded resonance tables, > > Page-flipping masochist... O:> Hmm? Well they aren't in the main book so I have to look them up extra anyway. Plus I copy out the resonance tables from the main book for PCs anyway - saves time - so not that hard to add these ones. > > >thought the APG was very art light but I've not read it in a while I > >admit. That said the art in it was not the IN line's best to put it > >nicely. > > How about "a lot of it sucked"? (There were some nice pieces, I think, > but some really awful, useless ones.) I'm aware you are involved in the game in general :) And I felt bad saying some of it belonged in the bin. > > >All in my not even remotely humble opinion of course. > > We're off in hypothetical-land. Why be humble? O:> > *grin* > --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap > and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits > on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. > (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) heh - at least you get an excuse for bad typing :) Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1614 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.