From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed May 10 10:30:22 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28825 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:30:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id KAA32505 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:23:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:23:18 -0500 Message-Id: <200005101523.KAA32505@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1619 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, May 10 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1619 In this digest: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> A bit of something in celestial blue... Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (sociology rant - long) Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (sociology rant - long) RE: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (sociology rant - long) Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (sociology rant - long) IN> Grigori IN> ADMIN: Hey, Remember the _IN NOMINE_ content! Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (sociology rant - long) Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote RE: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote RE: IN> Cool Lilith Quote IN> Chess Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Grigori IN> Jack Chick Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote IN> Crete, Thera, Atlantis (no longer "Cool Lilith Quote") Re: IN> Chess Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (There will be IN content!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:25:35 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote - --On Tue, May 9, 2000 21:34 -0500 David Edelstein wrote: > David Rodemaker wrote: > >> For my part until I see *anyone's* Ph.D. in Theology or Anthropology >> with a CV that supports the statements that they make as to what is >> "true" or whatever I really don't any of us should point the finger >> at anyone else about inaccurate statements... > > You believe that no one can correct factual inaccuracies (or comment > on improbabilities) unless one has a Ph.D. in the relevant field? It's > impossible to know what you're talking about without a doctorate? That > must make it awfully difficult for you to have meaningful discussions > with people. > Well, I imagine if you don't have any evidence to refute an arguement, it makes it easier to dismiss the viewpoint you don't like as "uninformed". Kind of like Dogbert, waving his paw and saying "bah." Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:32:31 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> A bit of something in celestial blue... - --On Tue, May 9, 2000 23:26 -0500 Prodigal wrote: > Beautifully written! Thank you for sharing it with us... > I agree. SO many people come up with numbers and no backstory, it's a great thing to see someone stretch their imagination. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:39:58 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (sociology rant - long) - --On Wed, May 10, 2000 00:40 -0700 "O. S. Kerr" wrote: > >> The Great Pre-Patriarchal Pre-Monotheism Goddess-Worshipping >> Matriarchy is at this point basically speculation combined >> with wishful thinking, and unlikely to become more than that. > > What about modern and historical matriarchies? The Navajo > are still a matriarchal society, with ownership of property > having a strong cultural bias in favor of the women. Navajo > divorce: you come home, and all your stuff has been thrown outta > the hogan. This is similar in many ways to the historical > Norse, where women owned everything but the weapons and the > ships. Many African tribes are matriachal, whith the attitude > of "Women own and run everything; men just hunt and kill each > other." > Uh, you KNOW you just described most modern western relationships too, don't you? > > Sociologically, matriarchy is a obvious means of government, > stemming from familial obligation. After all, there's rarely > any question as to your mother. > Wait, you switched from biology to sociology too fast. I get dizzy easily. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation (Hurts to think about, dunnit?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:53:02 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote In a message dated 05/09/2000 5:26:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, omentide.omentide@virgin.net writes: > And of course those of us in the know are fully aware that Mary is in > reality Brighid. > > Ashley > No, No. Brigid was the *milk mother* of Christ. Much more important position than merely mother... Mark (Carmina Gadelica, for those who need references) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:06:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote > True, much of the demonisation came later, the Gospel of Paul (though not > strictly a gospel at all) is a prime example. The witch hunts and some of > the Dominican bits are a later example. A. Paul is New Testament, not Old Testament. B. The Spanish Inquisition, which largely targeted Jews, had little to do with the persectution of women. > As of course is modern versions the bible, but at least the old testament > is a damn good folk tale. Except, of course, those books which are labeled "Historical" or "Prophets." Not to say that they're literal truth -- they aren't. But there certainly is historical viability in, say, the building Solomon's Temple, or the Jewish "relocation" in Babylon. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. "God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:08:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote > > I think I might have been guilty of this during the whole reprint > discussion. And I'd like to say I do feel somewhat silly about that now. Well, there's this solid book, see. And it has pages... - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. "God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:16:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote > On the other hand you can read something like Forbidden Archeology by Cremo > and Thompson and get a real example of the exact opposite situation... > No-one takes them seriously (and I really don't think that they should for > the vast majority of what they say) but they give an excellent example of > this process in effect. There is a _damn_ good reason why Cult Archeology -- sometimes called "Forbidden" Archeology" -- isn't taken seriously. Most of it is so ludicrious that anyone with only the smidgeon of real archeological training can tell the difference between, say, the "proof the Egyptians built the heads in Mexico" and real pre-Mayan artifacts. Or "proof the Egyptians built the Indian mounds in Missouri" and reality. I took a fine class on this from a guy named Dr. Dick Ford, whose only real fault was that he couldn't stop talking about corn. If you want to discuss this topic with someone with the Ph.D. in ethnobotany and anthropology, you can reach him at riford@umich.edu. He's a nice guy, and I can absolutely say for certain that he'll answer your questions. Anyway, this Lilith stuff is alot like cult archeology -- we believe the mythology behind it because it is cool and post-feminist, not because we want to know the truth, that our feminist figure is simply one of many transfigured Zoroastarian demons invented in Assyria in 500 BC who happened to get mentioned in passing in a few Medieval texts by bored Jews. The truth isn't any fun most of the time, unless you're of the scientific bent and your reaction to the truth is, "I couldn't make shit up this good." - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. "God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:16:27 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> New Heretic Superior (Yup, another one) Two things to note Firstly, about that webpage - it doesn't quite work - I got too caught up in the story to mention it last time. I have proxies disabled - but it still seems to be going to one. I go to www.familyshoebox.com/family - and then follow links from there - I think. Secondly, about the criticisms of it. I agree partially - I think the canon Novalis would go through that and come out forgiving them. And I see the point about the red hair and the scar too. The thing that changes it, for me, is the reactions of the other Archangels. Including Janus'. I could see it heralding a change in him as well. Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:19:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote > This is true, though less so in the last 30 or 40 years. However, the > fact remains that there's virtually no evidence of any prehistoric > matriarchy, and a fair amount of evidence against it. The Great > Pre-Patriarchal Pre-Monotheism Goddess-Worshipping Matriarchy is at this > point basically speculation combined with wishful thinking, and unlikely > to become more than that. I believe this reference is to the Cro-Magnon pregnant mother-figure statues which are found all over Europe. While these figures definitely point to a cult of worship surrounding a female creation figure, they in no way: - -- Prove a matriarchial society during the cro-magnon occupation of Europe. - -- Prove the existance of the invention of a monotheistic religion before Israel. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. "God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:24:17 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (sociology rant - long) "O. S. Kerr" wrote: > > > However, the fact remains that there's virtually no evidence > > of any prehistoric matriarchy, and a fair amount of evidence > > against it. > > Such as? I'm not weighing in on either side in all this hoo-hraw, but I believe there is good evidence that 'division of labor' if not a true matriarchy was the norm for many millenia. Each gender was regarded as important and worthy of respect, but by no means the same. If, for example, men were in charge of hunting, defense and inter-tribe diplomacy while women were in charge of gathering, child-rearing and communion with the Gods, who's to say who is really in charge? When compared to later eras when women were treated as chattel, the ages of rough equality might even seem 'matriarchal' (especially since pre-domestication of animals, bloodlines were tracked through the women... something that continues to exist in some cultures today). - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:26:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: RE: IN> Cool Lilith Quote > > >Excuse me if this sounds sarcastic, but you are aware of who Jesus was, > >according to Catholic tradition? The son of God who also was God? Mary was > >his mother, hence 'Mother of God'. Do you seriously find this odd, or are > >you genuinely ignorant of Catholic beliefs and thought that they had raised > >a random woman to be above God and be accepted as his mother? > > Of course I know who Mary was. The fact remains that in what is > fundamentally a Patriarchal religion a woman becomes elevated to, as you > correctly say, above God. Mary is not above God in Catholicism. Because she accepted God's gift to become Mary, Mother of God, she is seen as the ultimate sign of faith, grace and devotion before God and Christ. She willingly accepts the the bearing of the Son of God, follows Christ through his ministry, and bears his pain at Calvary. According to the tradition of the Council at Trent, she was also born without the stain of Original Sin. The Catholic Encyclopedia lives at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/. It might behoove you to look these things up for yourself. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. "God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:27:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote > The Mother Goddess (in whatever name) is only really possible as part of a > polytheistic culture and belief system. In many polythesitic beliefs the > power of various deities changes over the expanse time, or depends on the > precise date or festival, or on location. For this there is considerable > evidence and many of the traditions and beliefs associated with the pre > christian polytheistic cultures have continued through to the modern day. And? - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. "God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:29:06 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote - --On Wed, May 10, 2000 10:06 -0400 Emily Dresner wrote: > > >> True, much of the demonisation came later, the Gospel of Paul >> (though not strictly a gospel at all) is a prime example. The >> witch hunts and some of the Dominican bits are a later example. > > A. Paul is New Testament, not Old Testament. > B. The Spanish Inquisition, which largely targeted Jews, had little > to do with the persectution of women. > I half-agree with you about point B. The point where I diverge is that, from the histories, you can draw the conclusion that the Inquisition was also driven by the voices in Torquemata's head (in the beginning) and by profit motive (shortly thereafter). Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation (Doesn't have issues with the Catholic Church. Nah.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:38:43 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (sociology rant - long) John Karakash wrote: > I'm not weighing in on either side in all this > hoo-hraw, but I believe there is good evidence > that 'division of labor' if not a true matriarchy was > the norm for many millenia. > Each gender was regarded as important and worthy > of respect, but by no means the same. If, for example, > men were in charge of hunting, defense and inter-tribe > diplomacy while women were in charge of gathering, > child-rearing and communion with the Gods, who's to say > who is really in charge? When compared to later eras > when women were treated as chattel, the ages of rough > equality might even seem 'matriarchal' (especially since > pre-domestication of animals, bloodlines were tracked > through the women... something that continues to > exist in some cultures today). Darn, I need to make this on-topic to In Nomine, don't I? Think, think, think. Ah-ha! When do you think the demon of Sexism reared its ugly head? I'm thinking it's a pretty old Word (though it may have gone through several holders). It strikes me as one of the 'human invent but gleefully adopted by demons' ideas. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:43:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote > > I half-agree with you about point B. The point where I diverge is > that, from the histories, you can draw the conclusion that the > Inquisition was also driven by the voices in Torquemata's head (in the > beginning) and by profit motive (shortly thereafter). There's a fine analysis of both the Medievel Inquisition and the Spanish Inquisition at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm. I'm often amused by the fact that those who like to point fingers at Christianity cannot do it on the basis of Paul's words, or inaccuracies between the Gospels, or the ever ongoing argument between Athanasius and Arius -- usually responded with by "Athan who?" - but lean on the crutch of the Inquisition, which is a poor crutch at best. All religions have had their intolerances, their purges, and their executions. Yes, even the enlightened Eastern ones. It's a weak argument, and the Inquisition was certainly not as bad as those who hold it up as an example of their own enlightenment made it out to be. And no, it very little to do with women, unless those women happened to be Protestants who were baiting the Catholic Church. How many people died in WWI and WWII? I think a greater example of the fallibility of the Catholic Church is it's unwillingness to condemn Nazi-ism than the Inquision. As for an In Nomine reference (because I'm sure Beth wants one)... you can read that above URL and apply it to both the Game and Judgment, if you wish. It has a decent overview of the machinations and reasoning between the Inquisition in the first place, and certainly both of those camps also have their purges and executions. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. "God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:49:34 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (sociology rant - long) - --On Wed, May 10, 2000 10:38 -0400 John Karakash wrote: > > When do you think the demon of Sexism reared its > ugly head? I'm thinking it's a pretty old Word (though > it may have gone through several holders). It strikes > me as one of the 'human invent but gleefully adopted by > demons' ideas. > Just my opinion, now, but wouldn't this be a lesser Word under the Word of Envy? Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation (Well, it *would*.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:53:59 -0400 From: "Thorne" Subject: IN> Grigori Hey all, Anyone have any idea when more info on the Grigori or their children will be out? _____________________________________________________ "This message will explode in 3 seconds . ." - Mission Impossible ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:04:09 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> ADMIN: Hey, Remember the _IN NOMINE_ content! The Lilith thread has gone off into all sorts of -ologies, but not a one of them has anything to do with In Nomine, that I'm seeing. Consider yourselves all whapped, and I'll have to start making people sit in the corner (i.e., weilding the u-n-s-u-b command) if I don't start seeing some _In Nomine_ content in the posts. If you can't put IN into the discusion, then take it to email. - --Beth, Djinn Princess of List Admin who finds all this real fascinating, yeah, but is seeing that it's going to take over the list with non-IN stuff if not stopped quickly. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:23:14 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (sociology rant - long) "O. S. Kerr" wrote: > What about modern and historical matriarchies? The Navajo > are still a matriarchal society, with ownership of property > having a strong cultural bias in favor of the women. Navajo > divorce: you come home, and all your stuff has been thrown outta > the hogan. This is similar in many ways to the historical > Norse, where women owned everything but the weapons and the > ships. Many African tribes are matriachal, whith the attitude > of "Women own and run everything; men just hunt and kill each > other." You need to distinguish between "matriarchal" and "matrilineal." And the fact that a society grants certain powers and privileges to women doesn't make it matriarchal. Yes, women are very influential in Navajo society, especially in the home, but men still run things. Same with the Norse. I've heard some people claim that Japanese and Korean societies are really matriarchal, because the wife usually controls the household budget (traditionally, the husband hands over his paycheck to his wife, and she gives him an allowance), and makes almost all decisions about the home, child-rearing, etc. This is a thoroughly unconvincing argument when you look at how their society is actually RUN, and who controls the government. > Sociologically, matriarchy is a obvious means of government, > stemming from familial obligation. After all, there's rarely > any question as to your mother. It's "obvious," yes, and has a certain theoretical appeal, but that doesn't mean it's happened. (Again, there is a difference between "matriarchal" and "matrilineal." There have been a number of matrilineal societies, but I'm not sure there has ever been a true matriarchy.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:24:51 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Omentide wrote: > The Mother Goddess (in whatever name) is only really possible as part of a > polytheistic culture and belief system. In many polythesitic beliefs the > power of various deities changes over the expanse time, or depends on the > precise date or festival, or on location. For this there is considerable > evidence and many of the traditions and beliefs associated with the pre > christian polytheistic cultures have continued through to the modern day. Huh? No one is disputing the existence of polytheistic cultures. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:53:48 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: RE: IN> Cool Lilith Quote At 10:26 AM -0400 5/10/00, Emily Dresner wrote: > >Mary is not above God in Catholicism. > >Because she accepted God's gift to become Mary, Mother of God, she is seen >as the ultimate sign of faith, grace and devotion before God and Christ. >She willingly accepts the the bearing of the Son of God, follows Christ >through his ministry, and bears his pain at Calvary. According to the >tradition of the Council at Trent, she was also born without the stain of >Original Sin. > >The Catholic Encyclopedia lives at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/. It >might behoove you to look these things up for yourself. And, for... another take, please feel free to read . Remember, if it's a Jack T. Chick tract, you know what you're getting into! (It doesn't even need the MSTing. You can stare at it aghast without any help at all!) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:27:13 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > I thought that,what was iot.. Crete? The placer that got blown up when > Belial toasted Oannes (look, IN ref! O:> ) was sufficiently ambigeous as > to get a PBS speculation that it may have been matrisarchal. > (goddess-worshipping wasn't mentioned, though.) I don't know specifically about Crete, but there's plenty of speculation about cultures that *could* have been matriarchal. But all we have are "mights" and "maybes" -- there's no real evidence for them. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:03:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: RE: IN> Cool Lilith Quote > And, for... another take, please feel free to read > . Remember, if > it's a Jack T. Chick tract, you know what you're getting into! > > (It doesn't even need the MSTing. You can stare at it aghast without > any help at all!) > I believe those things have got to be a joke. I can just imagine some poor Kobalite, sitting over a desk, churning those things out by candlelight, thinking, "And I used to be a Creationer..." I mean, they're DRAWN well, right? :) - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emily K. Dresner -- http://www.nodonut.com/zenith Read No Donut -- Gaming, Politics, Conspiracy, Computers, and other fun stuff at http://www.nodonut.com/. Demiurge doesn't keep human heads in her freezer. It uses up so much space. Demiurge just shrinks and dries them. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:02:32 +0100 From: "mink" Subject: IN> Chess hmm.. once more i got to thinking about a good game of chess.... but i wasnt happy with the peices. so i got out the play doh and made some special peices. the question is, who would you folks use for each peice. here is who/what i'd use queen: the earth king: yves bishop: dominic + khalid rook (the horse bloke): michael + laurance castle: david + novalis pawns: malakites but i didnt do any for the demon guys. have fun }:-) Colgarothialmes, Demon of Damnation, Shedite with an artstic limb or ten (-:{ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:06:42 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote Of course, this entire thread makes me wonder what happened to the Bixlers. They had the beginnings of a quite interesting 'Grey Victory' campaign sequence where the Ethereal Gods were plotting to take over the universe - and it was never finished, that I ever saw... If anyone knows what happened with that, could they let me know? Or, possibly the Ashley portion of omentide would be willing to share his thoughts on an Ethereal vicory in the War... Mark (See? I'm pulling it back to In Nomine....) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:09:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote On Wed, 10 May 2000, Emily Dresner wrote: > I believe this reference is to the Cro-Magnon pregnant mother-figure > statues which are found all over Europe. While these figures definitely > point to a cult of worship surrounding a female creation figure, they in > no way: They might not even point to that. I read an alternative theory about those figures recently, which says that they're charms designed to keep a pregnant woman safe through pregnancy and childbirth. The author of the theory (whose name I can't remember) pointed to similarities he believed he saw between the characteristics of the figures and the physical changes pregnant women go through. Of course, that's a slightly more fringe theory... Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:22:56 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Grigori At 10:53 AM -0400 5/10/00, Thorne wrote: >Hey all, >Anyone have any idea when more info on the Grigori or their children will be >out? Hopefully in June, when GURPS IN shows up. (No, don't buy it just for that alone, that would be cruddy; buy it for that and the GURPS-to- In Nomine conversion that will let you use the GURPS historical books for your IN games...) (Or, for true alphabet soup... For a crossover, you can have IN and the WoD via GURPS IN and GURPS V:TM! Now all you need is GURPS IOU and you're set... ) *ahem* As for the main IN line, it really depends a lot on how th line continues to sell. If it doesn't become a runaway best seller, well, it's not going to get anything about the Grigori in the next 3 months. At the moment, I've got some things _planned_, but they're not on the _schedule_, y'know? (Now, if GURPS IN draws a lot of people into buying the other IN books, that will probably encourage people to put several things on the schedule. Grigori material may be among them. We'll probably start knowing in June or July whether the "wouldn't-touch-another-system- with-a-ten-foot-polearm" GURPSers are getting hooked.) (As a further note, GURPS IN is laid out like an In Nomine book -- no sidebars (boxes instead which are called sidebars), the page-borders and fonts are the same, etc. It's also bloody huge, which only makes sense when I realize we were not only converting the main book, but also cramming in bits of the Liber Canticorum, Liber Reliquarum, APG, IPG, CPG, and GMG into the thing. Man... the people who buy it better appreciate it...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:40:09 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Jack Chick Whistling in the Dark wrote: > And, for... another take, please feel free to read > . Remember, if > it's a Jack T. Chick tract, you know what you're getting into! > > (It doesn't even need the MSTing. You can stare at it aghast without > any help at all!) Oh, God. I suddenly had a vision of "Jack Chick In Nomine," a campaign variation based on Chick's theology. I think I just had an aneurism. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:14:15 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote >From: Emily Dresner > >There's a fine analysis of both the Medievel Inquisition and the Spanish >Inquisition at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm. > I can't comment on their summary of the Medieval Inquisition (I always thought Bernardo Gui sounded like quite a dude), but the Spanish stuff is more full of holes than my fishnets. - --- The Spanish Inquisition, however, properly begins with the reign of Ferdinand the Catholic and Isabella. The Catholic faith was then endangered by pseudo converts from Judaism (Marranos) and Mohammedanism (Moriscos). - -- Endangered? They only faked conversion because the alternatives were dreadful discrimination, expulsion, or the inquisition. Also, Isabella was rabidly anti-semitic. - -- (from the soc.culture.jewish FAQ) ""Marranos" actually started appearing with the first riots in the Juderias of Spain. Many were forced to convert to save their lives. These were naturally not faithful Catholics. The laws in 14th and 15th century Spain became increasingly oppressive towards practicing Jews, while providing an easy escape by conversion. Large numbers of middle class Jews outwardly took on Christianity to avoid the laws, while secretly practicing Judaism. " - -- If mad Spaniards hadn't kept oppressing their non-Christian subjects then they wouldn't have had problems with 'false' conversions. We look on the Marranos sympathetically; they kept their real faith alive, even though they knew it was dangerous, and those who died were martyrs. [NB. Similar things happened in Nazi Germany -- Jews had never been so assimilated in any country as the middle-classes were there. And in just the same way, it didn't do them any good when the crunch came.] >but lean on the crutch >of the Inquisition, which is a poor crutch at best. Sorry, but the Spanish Inquistion was probably every bit as bad as it is made out to be. It wasn't purely the church's fault -- a succession of rabid Spanish monarchs and mobs had as much to do with it -- but I wouldn't be so quick to let them off the hook. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:14:41 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote - --On Wed, May 10, 2000 10:43 -0400 Emily Dresner wrote: > >> >> I half-agree with you about point B. The point where I diverge is >> that, from the histories, you can draw the conclusion that the >> Inquisition was also driven by the voices in Torquemata's head (in >> the beginning) and by profit motive (shortly thereafter). > > > There's a fine analysis of both the Medievel Inquisition and the > Spanish Inquisition at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm. > > I'm often amused by the fact that those who like to point fingers at > Christianity cannot do it on the basis of Paul's words, or > inaccuracies between the Gospels, or the ever ongoing argument > between Athanasius and Arius -- usually responded with by "Athan > who?" - but lean on the crutch of the Inquisition, which is a poor > crutch at best. All religions have had their intolerances, their > purges, and their executions. Yes, even the enlightened Eastern > ones. It's a weak argument, and the Inquisition was certainly not as > bad as those who hold it up as an example of their own enlightenment > made it out to be. And no, it very little to do with women, unless > those women happened to be Protestants who were baiting the Catholic > Church. > You misunderstand the focus of my ire. I certainly can't attack Christianity - that would be a particularly messy form of suicide, given the circumstances. And hard to explain to God to boot. Where *I* get upset is where the Church is made a stronghold for the desires of men. Our predecessors - and I have to admit that they WERE my predecessors, no neat trendy way to logic the truth away - kept the Word and the gospels in a language that wasn't taught, and kept the general population illiterate for *how* long? From the selling of Indulgences to the current lethargy and cowardace of the Synods it just raises my hackles. I don't have many buttons to push. That's one of them. > How many people died in WWI and WWII? I think a greater example of > the fallibility of the Catholic Church is it's unwillingness to > condemn Nazi-ism than the Inquision. > The Spanish Inquisition (1483) and its earlier predecessor (1231) were sheer bloody-mindedness, and if I remember correctly, resulted in around 3,000 burnings. Activity during World War 2 was cowardace, and MILLIONS of innocents died. To me, there's no moral difference between the two; both were abandonments of what we're supposed to be doing in favor of "enlightened self-interest." All religions, because they contain people, are inherently flawed, I agree. *Especially* if they contain people like me. =) > As for an In Nomine reference (because I'm sure Beth wants one)... > you can read that above URL and apply it to both the Game and > Judgment, if you wish. It has a decent overview of the machinations > and reasoning between the Inquisition in the first place, and > certainly both of those camps also have their purges and executions. > Which two camps, the Game and Judgement? Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:18:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Crete, Thera, Atlantis (no longer "Cool Lilith Quote") Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > I thought that,what was iot.. Crete? The placer that got blown up > when Belial toasted Oannes (look, IN ref! O:> ) was sufficiently > ambigeous as to get a PBS speculation that it may have been > matrisarchal. (goddess-worshipping wasn't mentioned, though.) The place that got blown up was the island of Santirini (sp?), also called Thera. It was part of the big and intriguing Minoan civilization apparently centered on Crete, and was certainly near Crete. The island is still there, and still inhabited, albeit with a big hole in it. Archeological studies of the buildings destroyed by the eruption found no human remains at all, happily suggesting that folk got warning and evacuated before the big blow. THAT would make an interesting IN historical tale -- servants of Oannes or Destiny or whoever was near to pitch in, all helping the humans get out of range while the Big Boys have their death-match in the nearby deeps. Then there's the suggestion that Thera/Crete is the origin of the Atlantis story. Scenario: Heaven tries to create a utopia, as it would later try to do in Camelot, only this one was on Thera. A huge fraction of the population are Soldiers of God. They have some interesting pre-Abrahamic theology the GM can make up. Things are going so beautifully that Hell can't stand it and, not having polished their subtle arts of corruption much at this point in history, send in Belial to nuke the place. Oannes defends, losing his life, but buying time for other celestials to evacuate the Therans/Atlanteans, who can then seed surrounding cultures with surviving fragments of enlightenment in the grand tradition of Atlanteans everywhere. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:33:27 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Chess At 4:02 PM +0100 5/10/00, mink wrote: >hmm.. once more i got to thinking about a good game of chess.... but i wasnt >happy with the peices. so i got out the play doh and made some special >peices. >the question is, who would you folks use for each peice. Oh, simple. The Kings are a Seraph and a Balseraph. The Queens are Ofanim (they move everywhere) and thus Calabim (destructive!). (Alternatively, have a Malakite and Lilim Queen.) The Bishops are Elohim and Habbalah. The Knights (_those_ are the horse blokes) are Kyriotates/Shedim -- body-hoppers, y'know? The Rooks (_those_ are the castles) are one Malakite and one Cherub on the angelic side and Djinn on the demonic. And a Lilim Rook to match, one supposes. The pawns are Impudites and Mercurians. What I wouldn't give for an In Nomine chess set. Mmmm, fun. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:21:01 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Cool Lilith Quote (There will be IN content!) >You need to distinguish between "matriarchal" and "matrilineal." And the >fact that a society grants certain powers and privileges to women >doesn't make it matriarchal. Yes, women are very influential in Navajo >society, especially in the home, but men still run things. Same with the >Norse. I've heard some people claim that Japanese and Korean societies >are really matriarchal, because the wife usually controls the household >budget (traditionally, the husband hands over his paycheck to his wife, >and she gives him an allowance), and makes almost all decisions about >the home, child-rearing, etc. This is a thoroughly unconvincing argument >when you look at how their society is actually RUN, and who controls the >government. In fact Matrilineal exists because woman were married to men of other cultures to cement peace treaties since there were groups that figured out, "Hey, if we don't fight eachother, but fight other people then we'll both do better!" A sad day for Malphas indeed (though I bet he's just loving this thread). Why aren't matriachies more prevelent, especially since they seem to make sense. I'm going to give the IN answer (pleae don't flame me): God set it up that way. Look at the Eden experement. In the ideal situation Adam was dominent. Thus God has dictated, and thus the Symphony strongly believes and enforces, that Man shall rule human society. Does that make it right? Depends who your answering the question in front of. Now this doesn't mean that a matriarchy couldn't rise, however with the Symphony tilted against it and maybe even the angels against it, that would be hard. Thus Lilith really wants hell to win, at least idealogically, so that God's dictates loose power and final Adam and all his hot headed, lust driven, twit sons (her words not mine, I disagree with the twit part) will finally learn their place. Then again, I just got up, so I may not be making sense, but that's ok. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus My international broadcasting agency: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1619 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.