From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun May 14 14:21:55 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01051 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 14:21:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA19099 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 14 May 2000 14:20:21 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:20:21 -0500 Message-Id: <200005141920.OAA19099@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1625 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, May 14 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1625 In this digest: Re: IN> Another In Nomine crossover Re: IN> Possession (was Quick Question) IN> Life imitating Art Re: IN> House combat system - comments wanted. Re: IN> House combat system - comments wanted. Re: IN> Another In Nomine crossover ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:04:17 EDT From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Another In Nomine crossover << No way is this a flame, but I got some disagreements. Perhaps because I tend to be an optimist and like a high contrast, bright tone to my games..but..>> As I said, I go for a slightly darker tone in my games. However, I wonder whether you're basing your comments solely off the books and movies, or whether you're taking the gaming materials into consideration. The WEG fleshed out Star Wars universe is quite darker and more realistic than the one portrayed in the books and movies. Also, I probably should have mentioned it earlier, but I regard canon as something that is useful for those who are involved in writing official products. IMO, it's completely optional for any GM. <<> Why do you think it's called the "Rebellion?" It's not. Technicaly, it's the Alliance. The Rebellion is the name the Emperor and Co put on them for propaganda purposes. Certainly some of the Rebels took the name as a badge of pride, the way many folks in my home state(s) call themselves Rednecks.>> Isn't it called the Rebel Alliance? I'll have to check that. But still, the public name has something to do with it. Who's to say that they didn't choose to refer to themselves as that as sort of a throwback to Lucifer's Rebellion? <<> Aren't they fighting for Freedom? Their fighting to restore the Old Republic. It's ideals of peace, harmony, and problem solving through peaceful discord..where each citizen is allowed to make his/her/its choices. Rather a bit like how the Symphony is supposed to be sans celestial influence.>> But, the Old Republic was a hotbed of corruption. That's why the Emperor was able to take over. Besides, if you're fighting to restore a government where each citizen is allowed to make their own choices, then you are fighting for freedom. It may be a beign freedom, but it's freedomn nonetheless. <<> Doesn't the Empire want to impose unity and order on the galaxy at any cost? Rather a bit like Stone, don't you say? Not really. The way I understand it anyway. Seems to me that Stones schtick is building community through adversity. If anything, David would be squarely on the side of the Alliance.>> The Empire ended up unifying the galaxy into one entity. To me, that's always been one of Stone's goals. On Earth, I would have things like the U.N. be supported by Stone, though other superiors may have gotten in on it and altered it from what David may have originally intended. << > Isn't it funny how the Empire curtailed the freedom of the press and restricted the flow of information? Nope. That along with gun control are the classic first step in a dictatorship. Sounds like a Game policy more than anything.>> But, it curtails Media, and I don't see any reason for the Game to do so. Yes, it is something that dictators do, but the Empire restricted access to the Holonet, which connected the entire galaxy. It took away what would have been Nybbas' pride and joys. << > Isn't it also interesting that while the Empire used tried-and-true equipment, the Rebellion often used jury-rigged stuff that was experimental in nature? Huh? The Deathstar was hardly 'tried-and-true'. I reallly don't think this applies. Yes the TIEs were lacking in shields, but this was because it was A)cheaper, B) the Empire considers pilots to be cannon fodder and C) they were more manuverable than the various Alliance/Rebel craft. Further, a lot of the Rebel equipment was actualy -older- stuff, hauled out of mothballs because of the dire situation.>> The Death Star was tested. It worked perfectly. All the Empire's equipment was top of the line. Much of the Rebel equipment was rigged on the go. There's Cracken's Rebel Field Guide which describes a lot of the things that were rigged. << > Do you think it was an accident that Vader said "Come with me, Luke, it is your _destiny_!" or was there a further purpose to it? Yeah. Vader was a Balseraph of Fate.>> Funnily enough, Vader was horribly blunt and truthful in the movies. If he said something, it was likely that it was actually true. It's Obi-Wan and his "from a certain point of view" that really sounded Balseraphic to me. << > Lilith (they are fighting for freedom) Okay, this I can definitely see happening. At least see Lilith aiding the Rebels in covert ways. Nevermind that the Empire was not only racist but sexist and you've possibly got the makings of not just a Bright Lilim, but a a Bright -Lilith-.>> Lilith can remain as dark as ever. After all, what about those pipe-bomb throwing anarchists that are held at arms length by the rest of the Rebellion? They support her Word. << > Nybbas (the media crackdown was no coincidence, it was aimed at this Prince's growing power) Unless of course Nybbas was given complete control of the Media. This could go either way.>> The Empire really did too much to restrict the Media for him to be working with the Empire. Besides, the Empire is essentially trying to exercise a monopoly over the media. Nybbas would be against this, IMO, because then there's no competing markets to push his Word to new heights. Besides, Imperial propaganda is wretched, and it doesn't push the product or sell to the masses, which Nybbas would want to do. <<> Andrealpheus (most of his allies are here, so he joined. Besides, his servitors and soldiers are roughly treated and used by the Empire's military.) Don't Andre's servants -like- it rough? :) And I won't go into all the BDSM possibilities of those probe droid thingies that Vader used on Leia in SW: ANH.>> Andrealpheus usually requires control. His servitors may like it rough, but it's at _their_ discretion, not somebody elses. << > Malphas (it's another faction, and the unity of the Empire is nauseating to him) I see Malphas as more playing both sides against the middle. But that's just me. :)>> To me, Malphas flourished under the Old Republic. The Empire cut down the number of existing factions, and he's trying to use the Rebellion to jump start his word. << > Vapula (the Empire is too static and unimaginative in a technological sense for him. Plus, all his ideas get thrown out by the bureaucrats in charge as "too dangerous.") Huh? The Deathstar? From the later books and novels you have stuff like the Star Crushers? Vappy would be happy as a pig in..well, you know...>> Vapula's problem with the Empire isn't so much that they don't like his ideas, but that the testing of his ideas are too expensive and have too much a chance of blowing up in someone's face. Vapula's brilliant, but his devices are unreliable. As such, he's forced to work outside a system that he'd otherwise like to work in. << > Valefor (who do you think helped steal the Death Star plans? The Rebels end up stealing quite a bit, and they're hailed as heroes for it!) Janus works equaly as well here. Hell, Lando could be one of his Vessels. Think about it. Calrissian never stays in one place long, he's smooth, debonair, and a heck of a theif in some ways.>> Janus is boring. And, I'd keep main characters being celestials to a minimum. Besides, the Empire allows Janus to wreak chaos as it is. << > Kronos (he's supporting the Rebellion because Yves supports the Empire.) I'm guessing this is because of the Vader 'destiny' comment. I still disagree. Flying a snub fighter against a Star Destroyer, knowing your going to die so others can live free sure sounds more like Destiny then Fate to me.>> Kronos is here because Yves is on the other side. The Empire is a quick and dirty way for Yves to reach out to the masses of the galaxy. When the Old Republic was around, Kronos only had to work to bring Senators to their Fate. Now, all the important government officials who really make decisions are lock, stock, and barrel under Yves' guard. I suppose I'm having them switch tactics, but hey, throw canon to the wind. << > Alaemon (having people keep secrets about being members appealed to him. Rebel Intelligence is his.) Not familiar with Alaemon yet, but the Empire kept a lot more secret than the Rebellion. Secret weapons, secret cloning tanks, secret police, secrets everywhere.>> But, the Rebellion kept itself secret for quite some time. Also, uncovering secrets is something that I see under Alaemon's word. Revealing them, no, but using secrets against the one who kept them, yes. << > Dominic (see Asmodeus.) I guess, depending on your take on Dom this could fit. But remember, not only is it disonant for a Angel of Judgement to let someone escape justice, it's dissonant for them to let an innocent be punished. and Human law means two things to Dom and crowd; Jack and Squat.>> A dark Dominic works quite well for this. The fact that he can look at things from an absolute viewpoint ("The prisoner blew up a barracks, killing 100 stormtroopers? Execute him.") because, as you said, human law doesn't mean anything to him, means that he can work with the Empire. He's probably one that has the most potential of leaving, though. << > Jean (having a powerful centralized government allows him to have more control over technological progress. He couldn't resist it.) Except the Empire is built on hate, fear and anger. All things an Elohim would find repugnant. The Emperor is negative emotion unbridled.>> If we're going over to an In Nomine perspective on universe, the Force is replaced by the Symphony. The negative emotions aren't necessarily a part of it anymore. Besides, the Empire did some good things that they don't get credit for. << > Eli (he helps Jean create a lot of the Empire's stuff. He just doesn't care about the chaos that's being kicked up.) Wha? Eli doesn't care? The Empire tries to squash individuality and creativitity. Look at the ST's and how variation from procedure is punished.>> I'm probably the only person on this listserv who _doesn't_ like Eli. I'm quite happy to put him in a darker light. << > Christopher (follows his patrons. He also says the Imperial orphanges have done a lot of good for the children.) If you consider killing their parents, oppressing their planet, and shipping them off to be brainwashed for use as blaster fodder -good- for the kiddies..>> Christopher can lie to himself about that. Besides, the point of him following Yves and David still stands. <<> Haagenti (is leaning towards the Empire, because the Rebellion is trying to conserve it's goods, but is following Kobal's lead for now.) I definitely see Haagenti on the side of the Empire. It intends to Devour the entire Galaxy. Literaly. That's the eventual goal of the Dark Side.>> If the Symphony replaces the Force, this is removed. The Rebellion is forced into conservation that Haagenti doesn't like. << > Beleth (she benefits from the fear and terror that both sides cause. Though she's leaning towards the Empire, just because Blandine is working with the Rebellion.) The Empire (At least in the movies) is all aobut fear and terror. I"d definitely put her in that camp.>> There's quite a bit of fear with the reports of "Rebel terrorist sabotage the Imperial barracks, killing 200." The Rebel Alliance is not full of shiny, goody-two shoes. It is effectively a terrorist organization that causes pain, fear, and death. They may be causing these things for the right cause, but it doesn't take away the fact that they're very much a terrorist organization. << > Michael (doesn't like the loss of fighting individuality that the Empire has caused, though doesn't agree with the Rebellion.) All that personal glory and fighting the good fight? Sounds right up Mike's alley to me.>> The problem is that Michael _likes_ the unity and strong military of the Empire. He disagrees with the Rebellion trying to undo that, but not so much that he'd oppose them. << A couple of final thoughts: The Empire is all about selfishness and ruthless ambition. Sound Familiar? It should. Cause that's the demonic theme through and through. The Alliance OTOH is all about self-sacrifice to save others. Sounds like the Angelic theme to a 'T'. However, I think if one takes some liberties with the Star Wars universe and with the IN universe as presented in cannon, I think it might be interesting to see what you come up with. I just think it would take some serious explanation on some of these superiors. Cool Idea either way though. >> Your view of the Empire and the Alliance is an idealized one. Things from the RPG materials are considerably darker than the view presented in the movies. In many ways, you can argue that serving the Empire is serving something bigger than you. Also, the motives of everyone joining the Alliance are not necessarily as pure as you make them. Some joined out of revenge, wanting to avenge the death of loved ones. Some joined because they had screwed up too many times in the Empire to advance any further. Star Wars by the movies and the novels is black and white, but it's considerably grayer than people give it credit for. Sam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 11:20:31 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Possession (was Quick Question) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > If Kyrios can take Undead, Shedim can take Saints -- they're human. Agreed. As pointed out, though, the Shedim may find itself in a WORLD of hurting re: dissonance when they try to corrupt a Saint! - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:27:06 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: IN> Life imitating Art I thought when I wrote up 'Preacher Man' for In Nomine (a Saint that's also a preacher and pro-wrestler), I was being a bit silly... but wait! Look at this news item about the CWF (Christian Wrestling Federation): http://dallasnews.com/metro/78550_cwf_12met.ART.html - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 15:22:22 -0700 From: "Matthew W." Subject: Re: IN> House combat system - comments wanted. >I'd assume Vapulan super-soldiers would be undead. Human Forces are too fragile. Remember, by most accounts, Vapula's first impulse on discovering something is too fragile is bolt ten tons of celestial battleship armor on it. = Mathus = = Demon of Rants = = ArchRival of Timothy = ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 16:24:38 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> House combat system - comments wanted. At 3:22 PM -0700 5/13/00, Matthew W. wrote: > >I'd assume Vapulan super-soldiers would be undead. Human Forces are >too fragile. > >Remember, by most accounts, Vapula's first impulse on discovering >something is too fragile is bolt ten tons of celestial battleship armor >on it. His early failures were disheartening, but Nybbas recycled them and had *terrific* success with them in Japan... speaking of which, I think Gundam Wing is on.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 13:18:56 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN> Another In Nomine crossover > Your view of the Empire and the Alliance is an idealized one. Things from > the RPG materials are considerably darker than the view presented in the > movies. In many ways, you can argue that serving the Empire is serving > something bigger than you. Also, the motives of everyone joining the > Alliance are not necessarily as pure as you make them. Some joined out of > revenge, wanting to avenge the death of loved ones. Some joined because they > had screwed up too many times in the Empire to advance any further. Star > Wars by the movies and the novels is black and white, but it's considerably > grayer than people give it credit for. Ehm, I've read the West End games sourcebooks as well, and I've gone throught he appropriate therapy to recover from trying to actually run a game using their system. I have the scars to prove it, and players who would rather chew off their own arms then go through that again. Besides which, the sourcebooks go to great lengths to tell you that Dark Side is bad, good guys are good, and never the twain shall meet. It puts a positive spin on even the darkest of heroes, and takes your characters away and makes them NPCs when they become too evil. Your interpretation is mostly wishful thinking. It sound to me like you're working hard to see Star Wars through as dark a lens as possible. You're also viewing the In Nomine Superiors through as dark a lens as possible, except in the case of the demons, who you seem to be viewing sympathetically. Nothing in the core In Nomine book can really let you view any of them sympathetically, unless you ignore all the bad things they do or have a natural knee-jerk reaction against authority (which is also wishful thinking, since the demons are more authoritarian than fracticious Heaven could ever be; it's feudal Heaven versus Stalinist Hell...). So yes, if you close your eyes when you come across the heavy-handed favoring of good in the West End Games, and close your eyes when you come across all the nasty things demons do in the In Nomine books, and think bad thoughts when you read about angels in the In Nomine books, yes, you can certainly have a dark In Nomine/Star Wars crossover where a host of demons fights for right and the angels, even the best of 'em, fight for the Empire (Christopher? Wha? Huhn?). A. Hamilton's explanation of an In Nomine/Star Wars crossover is a lot truer to Star Wars books, games, movies, and roleplaying games, as well as truer to the In Nomine core books. It doesn't require bending either universe to fit personal player taste (which isn't a BAD thing, it's just a thing.) And I have no problems with you varying your mileage, but your interpretations of both the Star Wars world and the In Nomine world seem based more on personal preference for how dark your roleplaying games are rather than anything whatsoever in either set of books. > Sam Ben ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1625 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.