From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue May 16 04:30:03 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA19310 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 04:30:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id EAA10733 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 2000 04:27:57 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 04:27:57 -0500 Message-Id: <200005160927.EAA10733@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1629 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 16 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1629 In this digest: Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover RE: IN> Possession (was Quick Question) Re: IN> How do I know you're what you say you are? Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover Re: IN> Free Lilim Re: IN> Question - Vessels & death RE: IN> Possession (was Quick Question) Re: IN> Question - Vessels & death RE: IN> Free Lilim RE: IN> Possession (was Quick Question) IN> Campaign Suggestions? RE: IN> Campaign Suggestions? Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover Re: IN> Sin and Damnation Re: IN> Question - Vessels & death Re: IN> Another In Nomine crossover Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover Re: IN> Campaign Suggestions? IN> Laurence & Free Will Re: IN> Question - Vessels & death Re: IN> Campaign Suggestions? Re: IN> Free Lilim Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:05:38 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover At 5:15 PM -0500 5/15/00, Prodigal wrote: >From: "Whistling in the Dark" > > > > Actually, I maintain the Empire is absolutely Laurence's dream. > > Perfect order, regimented troops, centralized authority, a single > > philosophy and no distracting elements. > >You just described Asmodeus' dream more than you did Laurence's. Asmodeus? Asmodeus doesn't dream. Asmodeus doesn't *care* enough to dream. Order means not having all of these bloody, pathetic *distractions* that constantly force you to rouse yourself and attend to them. It *is* just a game, after all. But if it were a perfectly orderly world, Asmodeus wouldn't care in the slightest. He'd just never be driven to order it. He could sit in his room and stare at his wall in perfect, abject *peace.* Why do you think he's *internal* security? > > I could see Michael *maybe* supporting the Rebel Alliance, and Janus > > joining in -- but most of the rest of Heavenly forces are squarely on > > the side of the Stormtroopers, it seems to me. > >Only because you choose to view them through the darkest of lenses. Well, duh. It's a Media thing. For the record, I run *terribly* bright games. They'd bore Em to tears, I'm almost positive. But my natural assumption is any successful massmedia movie that spawns three sequels (and counting), two comic books, a remote control shaped like a lightsabre, any number of books written by Kevin J. Anderson and two, two, *two* cartoons is a pure, abject, sheerest Nybbas-spawned saga. Nybbas *loves* Star Wars -- especially Episode One, which didn't even pretend to have a plot, but it was *pretty* and people waited in lines for *months* to see it and it was a pure media circus where the most devoted of fans were mocked horribly for months and it *still* made six hundred million dollars. There's no down side, baby! And therefore, the Hellish propeganda machine has built a saga where the bad guys are the ones who want strong, central, nondemocratic authority as well as the elimination of alternate philosophies of any stripe. The good guys are the ones who enjoy lust (heck, Luke joneses after his own sister for two movies), lie whenever they feel like it, act like beloved rogues and in the end manage to defeat the well oiled military machine with eight dozen teddy bears armed with spears. Now, if you want to bury yourself in the Star Wars mythology and naturally equate Force/Jedi=Good and Force/Sith=Evil, it's simple enough to map the Archangels to the Jedi and the Demon Princes to the Sith. But ask yourself what any given Seraph would think of Qui Gon Jinn, Obi Wan Kenobi, or Yoda. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:11:08 +1000 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Possession (was Quick Question) Aaron wrote: > And ethereals can't enter the celestial realm anyway, so there's > not a whole > lot of point to guarding against *them*. Don't forget, some Ethereals claim that God was one of them who simply figured out the trick to the Celestial realm. If their story has any merit (YMMV) then it's only a matter of time before another one figures out the trick. Once one knows, he can tell his friends and get a bit of a gang together to go kick some angelic butt for a change. Now, how do we get into Heaven? Look! Someone left the gate open in the Marches! > Doesn't seem practical, and Heaven doesn't like to waste resources. Preventing Heaven from being attacked is a waste of resources? Sure, if you can predict everything your enemy will do then you don't need the Malakim guard. But if you can't, better safe than sorry. And do you think Heaven would still be in the War if they could predict _every_ move the infernals made? We already know Kronos can slip demons into Heaven without setting off the alarms. All he needs is an angel for the demon to follow, or maybe a tether with an open-door policy. Leath (Yes, I'm edging towards teh silly side, but what's the saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? Something like that.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:09:22 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> How do I know you're what you say you are? At 7:35 -0400 5/15/00, Kiara S. Legner wrote: >The discussion on Saints brings up another question: > >Kyriotates tend to have 'tags' to identify themselves to folk who already >know them. How do other angels/demons/whatever identify themselves to their >own side? > >It would seem that celestials run the very real risk of having someone from >the other side pose as one of their own on earth. How have you folks >handled that issue in your games? Generally I set this up as referrals and briefings. Newbies tend to get introduced around town by their local contact, who will generally have been given information on who they are, what they'll look like, when to expect them, etc. Note that "new" celestials have precisely three ways to getting to Earth: - take a Tether down - follow a guide down - be sent by a Superior The first two pretty much automatically provide "local" people who can vouch for the newbie, only the third is a problem. In a case like that, though, I'd expect the Superior to include local contacts (and people to avoid) in the mission briefing. (Obviously, some of the more disorganized Superiors may skimp on this part, but so it goes....) Passphrases and countersigns are another standard bit of covert ops procedure that are likely used -- I expect David's lot, in particular, are big on those "secret handshakes" and the like. In modern times, various forms of ID and cross-checking are relatively secure and easy: Bobiel (new angel just came into town by plane, was given Carol as a contact): "Hi, I'm Bob -- I'm a friend of Ted's, down in DC. He told me to look you up if I happened to be in Smithton. He said you owe him a call." Carol: New ways keep popping up, too -- I can see Jeanites (and Trade Servitors) being sent out with PalmPilots loaded with short-term crypto certificates, for example. Demonstration of attunements can often at least verify Superior and Choir/Band, and often can be done without too much trouble. The ultimate assurance is a relic that's attuned to the user only, which does something trivial (e.g., Song of Corporeal Light), and practically screams "Superior made me", though this is probably overkill. (We originally proposed "Judgment badges" for Triads for L.Reliquarum; unfortunately they got chopped. Triads probably have the biggest ID problem among angels, since they're generally going to be unfamiliar to those they're visiting.) In my own games, angels are likely to simply be told who to go work with, and they generally get at least basic data on the contact. They *usually* just announce themselves to the contact (assuming it's another angel), and will either have some kind of current passphrase to give the contact, or the contact will be able to verify, via his chain of command, the newbie's identity. Or both. Of course, this isn't foolproof, but it's simple, and typically is secure enough in practice. More elaborate schemes would only be used if the stakes were really high (e.g., carrying radical new orders, or the like). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:16:32 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover At 4:42 PM -0600 5/15/00, ben wrote: > > > Actually, I maintain the Empire is absolutely Laurence's dream. > > > Perfect order, regimented troops, centralized authority, a single > > > philosophy and no distracting elements. > > > You just described Asmodeus' dream more than you did Laurence's. > >Baal's dream, you mean. Laurence may value all those things, but he is >honorable enough to recognize that the ends do not justify the means. Sure, >you can have all those things, but at what expense? Mm. I like Laurence. I honestly do. But I don't think Laurence has even a casual aquaintance with the idea that freedom is innately good. He was a proponent (as of Superiors 1) of the Divine Right of Kings for a very long time, he's utterly firm in his belief that Roman Catholicism should be the only human religion, and he embodies "I shall not suffer evil to win if it is my choice." And, looking through the Oaths in Superiors 1, I don't see anything that even *suggests* "the ends do not justify the means." I *do* see "Never question the will of my Superior," however, which works amazingly well in the Empire, doesn't it? (I'd better stop arguing the point -- clearly other people in this care vastly more than I do about the subject. ) - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:18:46 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Free Lilim At 13:38 -0400 5/15/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >What do people usually do with Free Lilim in their games? Do they >default as Heartless or do they usually purchase a Heart from a >Superior? In my campaign, they're almost all Heartless. It's part of the price of freedom. Superiors don't supply Hearts unless the Lilim will bind. (In fact, given some of the newer canon on Hearts, they probably *can't* make a Heart that doesn't amount to binding the Lilim to their Word.) The only Heart alternatives a Free Lilim has in my game is to get a Heart from Lilith, or to get someone to make a False Heart (from L.Reliquarum, I think). > If not, does the Game treat them as 'Renegades >it's not cricket to reel in just yet' or 'Renegades we have some use >for?' Yes, and yes. They're automatically suspect, but too useful to mess with unless there's some real evidence against them. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:23:03 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Question - Vessels & death At 16:02 -0400 5/15/00, Dave Taylor wrote: >What is peoples stance on celestial vessel death? Do you leave the vessel >behind and go into trauma (leaving a corpse), vessel vanishes immediately, >vessel decomposes supernaturally fast/supernaturally slowly? > >What do you consider the pros and cons of each senario? Canon is, supposedly, that dead vessels are just normal (for the most part) dead bodies, and do all the normal things that a dead human body would do. I'm not sure this is stated explicitly in the rulebooks anywhere, though. It may be in the FAQ. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:18:55 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: RE: IN> Possession (was Quick Question) At 4:26 AM +1000 5/15/00, Leath Sheales wrote: >Uncle Wolf wrote: > > > Just take them a couple of flights up the stairs of the Tower and the > > Celestial/Ethereal border, the Light of Heaven, and the truth of speech > > in Heaven will sort out who is what very quick. > >Well, if that's the way you want to run it but in my campaign the angels >aren't going to risk letting any unknown into an angelic cathedral, just to >see if it's good or bad. There are less dangerous and more cost-effective >ways, IMO. Mm -- your game can follow your patterns, of course, though IMC the Cathedrals are the absolute core of both the Light of Heaven and the Word of the Superior. Frankly, there isn't a thing a demon could even do in a Cathedral in Heaven in my game, and would be terrified to even enter one. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:32:09 -0400 From: "EDG" Subject: Re: IN> Question - Vessels & death > What is peoples stance on celestial vessel death? Do you leave the vessel > behind and go into trauma (leaving a corpse), vessel vanishes immediately, > vessel decomposes supernaturally fast/supernaturally slowly? I believe canon states that upon vessel-death, the vessel becomes subject to the same rules that apply to other freshly-dead corpses. But then, that's probably not what you were asking. > What do you consider the pros and cons of each senario? Note that in these scenarios, the GM Pros are generally going to be the Player Cons, and vice versa. It's not universal, though, and where I can see one that's not the other, I'll note it. Note also that I'm not proposing an "adversarial-GM" stance here, merely that what's good for the game is often not good for the characters. Scenario 1: character goes to trauma, leaves a corpse. GM Pros: It's a plot hook, and - if the vessel had a Role attached to it - it teaches the character to not be so careless. Plus, I believe that Cherubim and Djinn can still use it to attune to the character, though I'm not sure on that point. Player Pros: Characters are most difficult to distinguish from mortals using this method. Scenario 2: corpse vanishes. GM Pros: It teaches characters to be more careful in general. Wouldn't want those pesky mortal authorities noticing that they're missing the body of the guy they shot thirty times. Player Pros: It doesn't leave any evidence behind for the other side to find. Scenario 3: corpse degenerates unnaturally quickly. GM Pros: It's a plot hook (i.e., what's making this corpse degrade so fast? Disease? Radiation?). It'll get the mortals curious as to what's going on, and they might stumble upon Things Man Was Not Meant To Know. Player Pros: You get to imagine cool "Last Crusade"-type special effects. Also, unlike Scenario 2, it's at least plausible that the body is mortal, just somehow weird. GM Cons: You have to figure out how to rationalize this effect. (Humans are /very/ good at rationalizing.) Scenario 4: corpse degenerates unnaturally slowly. GM Pros: See #1. It also has the same types of pros as #3 (why is it doing this?) It makes sense, though; the vessel is, after all, a remnant of celestial powers, and wouldn't succumb to the pressures of bacteria and the elements quite so quickly as something that succumbed to them in the course of nature. Player Pros: It gives a nice long time to identify enemy bodies, and - as in #1 - Cherubim and Djinn may be able to attune to the body and thus to its old owner. Just my two cents. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:44:26 +1000 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Free Lilim Walter wrote: > Yes, and yes. They're automatically suspect, but too useful to mess > with unless there's some real evidence against them. It's probably worth mentioning that Asmodeus (IMG) tries to get hold of at least one of the Free Lilim's 'birth Geases' just in case they decide to run. And you can bet that he'll almost never call that Geas in. Free Lilim, indeed... Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:53:39 +1000 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Possession (was Quick Question) Eric wrote: > Mm -- your game can follow your patterns, of course, though IMC the > Cathedrals are the absolute core of both the Light of Heaven and the > Word of the Superior. Frankly, there isn't a thing a demon could even > do in a Cathedral in Heaven in my game, and would be terrified to > even enter one. Fair enough, I won't stop people running their games how they want. I agree that Cathedrals are bloody hard places to attack, but if the demons ever hope to win the War (and they do) then they need to come up with tactics to assault Cathedrals. When they come up with tactics, sometimes they will want to test them, and the only Cathdral that is easily accessible is Blandine's. The others are all in Heaven proper, and Gabriel's twisted path to the Marches is too damned hard to follow. Blandine is aware of the possibility and keeps the tower defended. To do otherwise would be folly, IMO. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:49:06 -0400 From: "J. Michael Smith" Subject: IN> Campaign Suggestions? I'm looking for some input here on where to take a campaign. To sum up quickly: The final/armageddon battle to be in my campaign was fought to an extremely bloody stalemate. Both sides, the ethereal realm, and humanity all came very close to getting destroyed. At the last moment, Lucifer makes overtures for peace in the form of a cease fire contract with promises that heaven and hell will make peace and get along and not destroy all of creation. The surviving (albeit in some cases severely weakened) archangels are- Blandine Eli Marc Michael Gabriel Novallis Jordi The question is, who signs the contract? There are some obvious ones in my mind. Eli is probably for saving creation. For once his word is actually in jeopardy. Novallis most likely prefers a compassionate peace and working with hell for a better tommorrow. Gabriel has always seemed to be in the "Demons die, die, die!" camp. The others I don't really know about. Michael is the archangel of War, but something in my gut tells me that it should be more complex than that. I'm tempted to say that Marc would side with peace due to the effect on trade, but once again, I'm not really sure. Jordi can really go either way (IMC, Jordi is the conflicted archangel that constantly deals with the dichotomy between her word and her duty to heaven.) I really have no idea on Blandine, although a good deal of armageddon just happened in her realm. The questions are all obviously much more complex than this. Servitors of different superiors might disagree with their superiors. And what about by choir? Obviously, the Malakim will be loathe to sign this thing-suffering demons to live and all. The really important one IMC is the seraphim. The seraphim council has the official power, and will determine heaven's "official position" on the matter. There are the servitors of dead superiors to worry about too. And also, what would you do and why? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:14:51 +1000 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Campaign Suggestions? J.Michael Smith wrote: > Blandine > Eli > Marc > Michael > Gabriel > Novallis > Jordi > > The question is, who signs the contract? If seniority is an issue, Michael is the oldest and would probably have to sign it. However, he would most likely see it as surrender and wouldn't do it. I could see Michael taking his forces, plus any of angels belonging to destroyed Archangels who still wanted to fight and splintering off into his own resistance group. Untl God tells him to stop fighting, he won't. If a contract has to be signed I'd make Marc do it. He is about fair trade and contracts, and will examine it carefully looking for any disdvantageous loop-holes and conditions. He's the Mercurian for the job. Novalis would push for peace but I wouldn't have her sign. Eli has power but not the respect required to represent the remainder of the Host. Gabriel would probably join Michael, Jordi would probably form his own faction and fulfil his goal of wiping out humanity once and for all, therefore post-apocalyptic humans find that animals have suddenly become a lot nastier and as long as the Marches were protected Blandine would be happy. So to sum up, Marc would lead Blandine, Novalis and Eli into a peace agreement with Hell. Michael would call as many angels as he could to his banner and disappear into the hills, ready to strike at any moment and Jordi would disappear and animals would suddenly be the scourge of humans (and human-looking angels and demons) everywhere. IMO, of course. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:15:52 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover From: "Whistling in the Dark" > At 5:15 PM -0500 5/15/00, Prodigal wrote: > >From: "Whistling in the Dark" > > > > > > Actually, I maintain the Empire is absolutely Laurence's dream. > > > Perfect order, regimented troops, centralized authority, a single > > > philosophy and no distracting elements. > > > >You just described Asmodeus' dream more than you did Laurence's. > > Asmodeus? > > Asmodeus doesn't dream. Asmodeus doesn't *care* enough to dream. Substitute the word "goal" for "dream" in my reply, and it serves equally well. > But if it were a perfectly orderly world, Asmodeus wouldn't care in > the slightest. He'd just never be driven to order it. He could sit in > his room and stare at his wall in perfect, abject *peace.* And this is why the world the Empire you described is far more the ideal product of Asmodeus' work than that of Laurence. > > > I could see Michael *maybe* supporting the Rebel Alliance, and Janus > > > joining in -- but most of the rest of Heavenly forces are squarely on > > > the side of the Stormtroopers, it seems to me. > > > >Only because you choose to view them through the darkest of lenses. > > Well, duh. It's a Media thing. No, it's a you casting the archangels in a bad light thing. And of COURSE Michael would support the Alliance. They are the side where a single hero can stand up to the forces of darkness, and turn the tide of battle. Luke's destruction of the Death Star was the embodiment of all that Michael stands for. > And therefore, the Hellish propeganda machine has built a saga where > the bad guys are the ones who want strong, central, nondemocratic > authority as well as the elimination of alternate philosophies of any > stripe. Which fits the rulers of Hell at least as well as the powers of Heaven. > Now, if you want to bury yourself in the Star Wars mythology and > naturally equate Force/Jedi=Good and Force/Sith=Evil, it's simple > enough to map the Archangels to the Jedi and the Demon Princes to the > Sith. Especially when you realise how the Empire's methods and those of Hell are so utterly alike. > But ask yourself what any given Seraph would think of Qui Gon > Jinn, Obi Wan Kenobi, or Yoda. Michael would have approved of both Qui Gon and Obi-Wan, at least insofar as their sacrifices allowed an evil to be defeated. A case could also be made for his approving of Yoda, also, since the reason why Yoda was opposed to Luke rushing off to Bespin was because he was afraid Luke was not ready to survive an encounter with Vader - a fear that proved true, since it was only Leia's intervention that saved him from death. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:44:15 CDT From: "Wade Hursman" Subject: Re: IN> Sin and Damnation *loud round of applause* My sentiments exactly! Very good path, there, I thought. Short easy steps that gradually led to Hell. Too bad none of my players want to play a Shedim. Wade Habbalite of Technology, Demon of Telemarketing ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:46:37 CDT From: "Wade Hursman" Subject: Re: IN> Question - Vessels & death Supernaturally fast decay, unless the vessel had a Role of at least Level 3/Status 2. Wade Habbalite of Technology, Demon of Telemarketing ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 01:53:20 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> Another In Nomine crossover > > I tend to veiw Heaven as the planned economy and Hell as the free market. > >If you view Heaven as a sort of kibbutzy, planned economy, and view Hell as >a monopolistic 1890's American free market, you would be close to the >impression given by the books. I think the core books go further. >"Planned economy" tends to convey a lack of individuality and a >corresponding lack of effectiveness, but Heaven is clearly populated by >extremely talented, highly effective, often individualistic angels, and >there are few, if any, examples of angels in Heaven who rise above their >level of competence. Individuality and lack of effectiveness do not correlate. An army is effective and soldiers (the individual units) have individuality drummed out of them. Heaven is of course populated by talented individuals but they all work for a common cause - those few who have dropped out or hold different agendas are suspected and persecuted by the Inquisition. But they remain part of the plan, they are not killed or driven completely beyond the realm of Heaven. >"Free market" tends to convey a sense of goodness where the best rises to >the top, like its a meritocracy, but Hell is clearly a place where those who >are best get destroyed by jealous Superiors, and only the brutal and strong >and LUCKY -- which isn't necessary "best" -- survive, and then they set >themselves up as tyrants... resulting in a "planned economy" of petty >oligarchs. Likewise free market and meritocracy do not sit that well together. In the free market only the brutal, strong and lucky survive, best has nothing to do with it. Hell works on a free market of each Demon Prince attempting to gain power and influence, and each servitor playing the game as far as it is safe to do so. This is nothing to do with particular realms of Hell, but to do with the mind sets of the Demon Princes, selfish, individualistic and utterly uncaring for the consequences of their action. IMHO this is the free market. Consider the actions of the IMF, World Bank, Mutinational Corporations such as those in the motor industry, and the UK Train (Railroad) company which paid out dividends of over 6 million and huge pay rises the directors but couldn't give a damn about passenger safety - people died in the resultant fireball. >Just my $15.99 on the terms. Words can be deceptive, especially politically >charged phrases like "planned economy" (which Heaven may be, but only in a >positive sense) and "free market" (which Hell may be, but only in the >ugliest sense.) Sure such words are charged, but no matter what Planned Economy implies working to the collective good, and Free Market for the individual good. I am not making judgements on either model, both have strengths, and weaknesses, good points and bad. In an In Nomine sense despite individual differences Heaven works for the collective whole which is defined as Heaven, and Hell is an individualist structure where only the stongest survive and prosper. Ashley Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 17:50:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:42:35 -0600From: "ben" Subject: Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover >I dunno why people say that Hell is more about the >individual and Heaven is more about the collective. >Hell's superiors are petty tyrants at best who >crush individuals. Heaven has Eli, Novalis, Michael, >Janus, and others who sponser individuality. Even >Laurence, the brightest target of those who accuse >Heaven of being next to fascism, personally felt he >was better suited to stabbing demons himself then >asking others to do it. Hell, on the other hand, has >no-one who *really* sponsers individuality. Malphas >does, sort of, but the way he does it strips >"individuality" of almost all of its connotations and >meaning. >Of course, Hell *is* based on a lie, and the first >part of that lie seems to be Hell's monopolization of >the term "individuality." >Ben Thanks, Ben. That post helped me figure out what I was subconsciously aiming at when I did a Heretic AA a while back (Malphas, in point of fact): not that my writeup was particularly successful, mind, but it's nice to know that I had a actual reason. :) Morgan (FAW) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:53:59 CDT From: "Wade Hursman" Subject: Re: IN> Campaign Suggestions? Before I answer, who are the surviving Princes in Hell? Wade Habbalite of Technology, Demon of Telemarketing ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:58:04 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Laurence & Free Will Whistling in the Dark wrote: > But I don't think Laurence has even a casual aquaintance with the > idea that freedom is innately good. He was a proponent (as of > Superiors 1) of the Divine Right of Kings for a very long time, he's > utterly firm in his belief that Roman Catholicism should be the only > human religion, and he embodies "I shall not suffer evil to win if it > is my choice." And, looking through the Oaths in Superiors 1, I don't > see anything that even *suggests* "the ends do not justify the > means." I *do* see "Never question the will of my Superior," however, > which works amazingly well in the Empire, doesn't it? This is all true, but while Laurence doesn't believe freedom is innately good (it is a _diabolical_ Word, after all), note that "Laurence's Last Lesson" did convince him that human free will is not be underestimated, or disrespected. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:17:46 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Question - Vessels & death >Just a quickie question (if such an animal exists on the list)... > >What is peoples stance on celestial vessel death? Do you leave the vessel >behind and go into trauma (leaving a corpse), vessel vanishes immediately, >vessel decomposes supernaturally fast/supernaturally slowly? > >What do you consider the pros and cons of each senario? > >TTFN > >Dave Well, I'd prefer to do what they did in Prophecy, ie the vessel doesn't vanish, medical examination determines that it's in *perfect* health, etc etc, however there are too many celestials on earth do to allow that. So, instead, I just leave the bodies as they are, broken and nameless (unless the celestial had a Role, in which case that "person" is now offically dead and the Role is lost, unless the celestial is willing to risk reappearinng in that Role and hope that no one discovered the mortal body). This allows celestials to read about the deaths of their friends in the newspaper, visit their old bodies in the morgue, and have their former vessels raised from the dead as Zombis by servitors of Saminga (creepy, ne? to see your former self rising to attack you :). Also, its possible that the bodies of former angels and demons might have power that be tapped by a sorceror who knows the proper rituals. Decomposing bodies of celestials might make the plants they nourish healthier/sickly, and might affect animals the same way, or animals might refuse to go near them. I view having the bodies vanish as to . . . easy, and it closes too many opportunities to play with them, the dead bodies that is. :) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:39:48 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Campaign Suggestions? >I'm looking for some input here on where to take a campaign. To sum up >quickly: The final/armageddon battle to be in my campaign was fought to an >extremely bloody stalemate. Both sides, the ethereal realm, and humanity >all came very close to getting destroyed. At the last moment, Lucifer >makes overtures for peace in the form of a cease fire contract with >promises that heaven and hell will make peace and get along and not destroy >all of creation. The surviving (albeit in some cases severely weakened) >archangels are- >Blandine >Eli >Marc >Michael >Gabriel >Novallis >Jordi >And also, what would you do and why? I've toyed with ideas like that, and I decided that while Heaven and Hell have offcially come to sort of peace accord to prevent the destruction of everything, the war camps on either side have withdrawn form their respective sides to continue the War. This means that you have a tenatively united group of Peace camp Superiors from both sides try to stop the War camps of either side. (a) The war camps will continue to fight each other and ignore the peace camps as much as possible (b) The war camps will come to a tentative truce and join forces to destroy the peace camps (c) The peace camps struggle to restrain the war camps while at the same time trying to maintain the truce between Heaven and Hell (d) Lucifer redeems, granted the title (and with that Name, the power) of Satan to a different DP, such as Redneck Gaijin has done in Dark Victory (Saminga grabbed the title, now everything gets to die, whee) (e) The War camps turn on humanity, rationalizing that if everyone is killed then the War will on earth have to end and then it can escalate to the Celestial Plane (1) perhaps initiated by Jordi, joined by Gabriel and Micheal (f) A second rebellion in Heaven, led by Micheal (1) Micheal conquer's Heaven (he is chosen by God) (2) Micheal is removed from Heaven (by God) In either case, whether or not anyone falls from Grace is another matter, I could see easily two heaven camps, both retaining their angelic status, but one is outcast, like the grigori. (g) A rebellion in Hell, led by Baal (1) Lucifer's redeemed so Baal takes the Position (2) Lucifer supports the rebels and abandons the "peace loving" DPs. (h) The "Third Force" of the Ethereals comes into power as the Old Gods from the Far Marches return in force (1) Allied with Beleth and Blandine (2) Allied with Beleth already, no change (3) Wish to take over completely, and mysteriously have the power to do so. Well, that's all my thoughts for the moment. :) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 05:03:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Free Lilim At 1:38 PM -0400 5/15/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >What do people usually do with Free Lilim in their games? Do they >default as Heartless Yup. IIRC, errata makes that canon, too. For what that's worth, of course. ( Are you a GM or are you a wimp to be bound by the chains of canon when you disagree? STAND UP AND RUN YOUR _OWN_ GAMES, YOU SPINELESS MONKEY! ) >I know the official 'word,' Oh, you meanie! You should have said that earlier. Now you're getting my reply anyway because I like my "Habbalah-disclaimer" and it's 4:45am. Well, I can do player anecdotes too. My Free isn't as paranoid about Limbo as perhaps she ought to be. (She's never been there, and anyway, these days she's got her good angel buddies to send her Essence. (Fragging space alien Elohite, twisting the 'Lilim Ethic' of a favor for a favor to ensnare her...)) When she wants to get to Hell (like never), she uses a Tether -- preferably one that only charges exhorbitant amounts of Essence rather than Geases. (I'd figure that if you've got a Lilim in service to your Word, they get as much of a free pass as your own Servitors, at your Tethers -- however "free" _that_ is.) IMC, the Game views them all as proto-Renegades -- they're sort of "grandfathered" out of that category because there've been Frees running around loose and not defecting for, oh, ages now. But the Free Sisterhood still makes them twitchy, and it's a lot easier to lay a frameup job on one if you want to get her out of your hair or blackmail her. (As usual, you don't want to overstep the invisible, shifting line that Lilith draws at Lilim abuse...) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 05:41:10 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN>Another In Nomine crossover At 7:15 PM -0500 5/15/00, Prodigal wrote: >From: "Whistling in the Dark" >> > >> >Only because you choose to view them through the darkest of lenses. >> >> Well, duh. It's a Media thing. > >No, it's a you casting the archangels in a bad light thing. But that's FUN! Yeesh, am I gonna hafta drag out that Shal-Mari rag which has the truth, yea, the TRUTH about Heaven and what happens to redeemed there? As well as gratuitous smut, but this _is_ Shal-Mari we're talking about here... (Seriously, for a dark-Heaven mindset, ask for the URL. Mature readers only!!! Send email, say you're over 18.) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1629 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.