From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri May 19 16:04:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01199 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 16:04:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id QAA20256 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 16:01:44 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:01:44 -0500 Message-Id: <200005192101.QAA20256@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1634 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, May 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1634 In this digest: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> [ADMIN] Getting rid of MIME/HTML (fwd) Re: IN> Gabrielle's judgement Re: IN> Age and Words Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> In Nomine Dice IN> End of the Bronze Age Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> How many angels ya figure their are? Re: IN> [ADMIN] Getting rid of MIME/HTML (fwd) Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> Gabrielle's judgement Re: IN> Gabrielle's judgement Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> In Nomine Dice IN> A few questions Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> A few questions Re: IN> A few questions Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> A few questions Re: IN> A few questions IN> baby talk (was re: IN Dice) IN> Andrew's suggestion for In Nomine Dice Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Re: IN> In Nomine Dice ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:34:02 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice - --On Fri, May 19, 2000 10:22 AM -0400 Jason Schneiderman wrote: >>> Malakim dice, Malakite die. Dice is plural . Or maybe we >>> should just kill all the Malakim. >> >> Malakite dice -- would you say Mercurians dice? > > Well, no. They can't - it's taboo, except for demons. They can dice > them. Cherubim dice, though, and so do Malakim. Very finely, as I'm > told. > > "Malakite die," though, is number three on the list of "Things a > Calabite Might Say." > > Jason, feeling the power of the 25,000 Pyramid. > Except that this one has a big eye smack in the middle of it. Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:26:52 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> [ADMIN] Getting rid of MIME/HTML (fwd) > >It's actually a little easier than that, with Outlook Express at least. > >In the Options window, there's an option to reply to messages in the format >that they were sent in, which takes care of it, IF you are replying to a >plain text message. One more quicky for Outlook Express users - in the Address Book, under the Properties tab for the email address you're sending to (i.e. the IN list, or, say, a certain Djinn Princess), select the 'Name' tab. At the lower left there's a box that can be checked that says 'Send E-mail using plain text only'. Now it doesn't *matter* what you try to do. It won't send out MIME. Ki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 09:54:53 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Gabrielle's judgement "O. S. Kerr" wrote: > Question: In canon, which version does Khalid believe? In canon, Khalid believes that any differences between the divine version and what Gabriel dictated to Muhammad were ordained by God, and Dominic should have butted out. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:55:22 -0400 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: Re: IN> Age and Words Charles Phipps wrote: > > Out of curiousity how old do you allow your players to begin as > angels.....this is pointful because one of my players wish to begin > as an angel born in the 12th century, another in the 1960s, and > another as one of the angels directly of the fall but who keeps > forgetting his powers.... In my game, I allowed the players to make their angels whatever age they wanted, because I thought there were cool roleplaying possibilities at all points in the spectrum, whether incredibly ancient angels who remember the universe before the Big Bang to angels so new the shiny hadn't worn off. > Which brings me to my next question-do you allow players to begin > with words? I'm not talking anything like Wrath, Crime, or other > rather large open ended but many characters are built on direct > concepts I've seen...including one who wants to begin as the angel > of wide eyed children and forgetfulness which they roleplay well. I didn't in my first game, but I think I would in the future. Even making *every* angel word-bound wouldn't be too bad. The big advantage is that you could let the players customize their abilities a bit more. I have to admit thaat demonic words seem more fun, because they don't have to be dignified or even very sane -- a party composed of the Demon of Looking Busy, Get-Rich-Quick-Schemes, and Romantic Comedies could be a blast to run. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:49:25 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice At 10:34 AM -0400 5/19/00, Marc Bowden wrote: >--On Fri, May 19, 2000 10:22 AM -0400 Jason Schneiderman > wrote: > > > "Malakite die," though, is number three on the list of "Things a > > Calabite Might Say." > > > > Jason, feeling the power of the 25,000 Pyramid. > > > > Except that this one has a big eye smack in the middle of it. Which explains Dick Clark. He's clearly Bavarian. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:08:56 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice >Another idea. Superiors dice. Laurence dice, Andreaplhus dice, Gabriel >dice etc, in funky colours and symbols. Y'all, I don't want to be a major wet blanket or anything, but let's be realistic; only the hardest-core fans of IN are going to buy Superiors dice - -- or, for that matter, IN dice for more than one or two Choirs or Bands. As a result, it's not going to be a good investment for SJG to get into making a bunch of different sets of IN dice that are going to gather dust in the warehouse. Bummer. So, if you're serious about this idea (and I do think the *idea* is good, just not the extravagant nature of some of the suggestions), I would recommend floating a reasonable proposal, something that could be produced in bulk without forcing our printers to make dozens of molds. Here's my idea, thrown out for whatever it's worth: Two sets of dice, one angelic and one infernal. Angelic would have two white dice with red pips and one red die with white pips. Infernal would have two black dice with red pips and one red die with black pips. The 1 face of each would have the IN cross. (It'll be too hard to tell the 1 from the 6 if both faces have icons; you could make the 6 face of the infernal dice have the icon instead of the 1, I suppose.) That's two sets of dice, which is a reasonable starting point. *If* these two sets fly off the shelves, then you might have a case for proposing another handful of sets. But you aren't going to get anywhere by laying out a proposal for seven, or fourteen, or God-only-knows how many sets as an initial investment. In other news, look for a Warehouse 23 news bulletin later today . . . by which I mean, as soon as I get it written. :-) - -- Andrew Hackard /\ "My money and my Promotional Writer /()\ [CENSORED] go to Steve Jackson Games / \ Illuminati University" andrew@sjgames.com /______\ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:24:33 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice - --On Fri, May 19, 2000 10:49 AM -0400 Whistling in the Dark wrote: > At 10:34 AM -0400 5/19/00, Marc Bowden wrote: >> --On Fri, May 19, 2000 10:22 AM -0400 Jason Schneiderman >> wrote: >> >> > "Malakite die," though, is number three on the list of "Things a >> > Calabite Might Say." >> > >> > Jason, feeling the power of the 25,000 Pyramid. >> > >> >> Except that this one has a big eye smack in the middle of it. > > Which explains Dick Clark. He's clearly Bavarian. > *Nothing* adequately explains Dick Clark. Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:47:30 -0400 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice >> Which explains Dick Clark. He's clearly Bavarian. >> > *Nothing* adequately explains Dick Clark. The Corporeal Song of Entropy? Jason * * * * * Jason Schneiderman jadasc@ma.ultranet.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:07:33 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: IN> End of the Bronze Age Java's Crypt, producer of fine jewelry for Warehouse 23, is going out of the bronze business. Therefore, all our bronze pendants, pins, and so forth just became limited-edition collector's items! Once we sell out of our current stock, these lovely pieces are gone forever. They include: Bronze Angelic Cross Pendant or Pin Bronze Infernal Cross Brooch or Pendant Cherubim Bronze Pendant or Pin Elohim Bronze Brooch or Pendant Kyriotate Bronze Pendant or Pin Mercurian Bronze Pendant or Pin Ofanim Bronze Pendant Seraphim Bronze Pendant or Pin Small Bronze Eye in the Pyramid Brooch Hurry before they're all gone . . . - -- Andrew Hackard /\ "My money and my Promotional Writer /()\ [CENSORED] go to Steve Jackson Games / \ Illuminati University" andrew@sjgames.com /______\ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:04:30 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice >Y'all, I don't want to be a major wet blanket or anything, but let's be >realistic; only the hardest-core fans of IN are going to buy Superiors dice >-- or, for that matter, IN dice for more than one or two Choirs or Bands. >As a result, it's not going to be a good investment for SJG to get into >making a bunch of different sets of IN dice that are going to gather dust >in the warehouse. But it was fun to talk about. Not realistic, I know that, but fun. Spoilsport..... >So, if you're serious about this idea (and I do think the *idea* is good, >just not the extravagant nature of some of the suggestions), I would >recommend floating a reasonable proposal, something that could be produced >in bulk without forcing our printers to make dozens of moulds. OK, I will try to be sensible. Unbreakable rock hard Malakim dice, especially suitable for Malakim of David. Precision machined perfectly balanced dice, each tested with 10 million rolls to ensure no devaiation from the expected - Dominic and Seraphim dice. Dice with the 1 rubbed out and replaced with a 6 for most if not all servitors of Asmodeus. Dice with 2,3,4,5 and 6 rubbed out, perfect for hapless victims of Shedim. 100 bags each containing 100 D10's - a veritable dice swarm donated by WW for Kiriotates to possess. A set of really pretty dice in a bag labelled "I'm sure you wll need these" for anyone who has forgotten to bring dice. >Here's my idea, thrown out for whatever it's worth: Two sets of dice, one >angelic and one infernal. Angelic would have two white dice with red pips >and one red die with white pips. Infernal would have two black dice with >red pips and one red die with black pips. The 1 face of each would have the >IN cross. (It'll be too hard to tell the 1 from the 6 if both faces have >icons; you could make the 6 face of the infernal dice have the icon instead >of the 1, I suppose.) Not bad. Maybe not black and white - but then I tend to play low contrast. I tend to use sets of the marbled dice of various colours, black, red, pink, dark blue, light blue, green, purple, etc in various combinations. Replacing the one and the six would, I think, be cool. Players would soon grasp that the Heaven symbol is the one, and the Hell symbol the six. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:17:06 -0700 From: "Matthew W." Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Well, everybody seems to think some kind of IN dice are a good idea, though I disagree with the "generic only" horns and halos dice. It's stops being IN and just becomes goofy Christian mythos dice. But I digress... ARGHHH!!! Are you gonna send this one up to the powers that be, Beth? = Mathus = = Demon of Rants = = ArchRival of Timothy = ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:59:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> How many angels ya figure their are? At 5:57 PM -0400 5/18/00, Charles Phipps wrote: >In Heaven, Hell, and on Earth what do you think the total are of >superiors/minions/like? would go unto this more, but see .sig... however, if you seek answers, go thou & acquire the GMG. http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/gmg/ - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:47:52 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> [ADMIN] Getting rid of MIME/HTML (fwd) From: "Kiara S. Legner" > > One more quicky for Outlook Express users - in the Address Book, under the > Properties tab for the email address you're sending to (i.e. the IN list, > or, say, a certain Djinn Princess), select the 'Name' tab. At the lower > left there's a box that can be checked that says 'Send E-mail using plain > text only'. > > Now it doesn't *matter* what you try to do. It won't send out MIME. Thanks for the reminder on that one! You get access to my "Removing Rich Text" rite as a reward. ;;;) Prodigal Angel of Removing HTML From Outlook Express ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:53:10 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice What about white-and-gold marbled dice for Celestials, black-and-bronze for the Infernals? Marc. Just Marc. Has black-and-granite marbled dice for Shadowrun, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:55:51 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice - --On Fri, May 19, 2000 11:47 AM -0400 Jason Schneiderman wrote: >>> Which explains Dick Clark. He's clearly Bavarian. >>> >> *Nothing* adequately explains Dick Clark. > > The Corporeal Song of Entropy? > Got me. Heck, he could be the Metatron on vacation for all we know... Marc. Just Marc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:02:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Gabrielle's judgement >> Yves would have had a copy of the 'final version' of the >> Qu'ran in the Library, even when he gave the original >> version to Gabriel. > >Question: In canon, which version does Khalid believe? I think Muhammed's? Would check, but wigglebaby... Is certainly in S3, though, & that is at printers. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:01:36 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Gabrielle's judgement >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Whistling in the Dark" >> >> The issue is somewhat ineffable, and all Superiors are cloaked in a >> certain ineffability, so Dominic can't Ping for Truth very easily > >As I've said before, this is one of those things that really, really needs >to make it into the core book come 2nd Edition. >J. Michael Neal at least it's in the GMG... (and GURPS IN, in more compressed format.) also alluded to in dom writeup? Would check, but is impossible w/ wigglebaby. - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:13:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice At 12:17 PM -0700 5/19/00, Matthew W. wrote: >Well, everybody seems to think some kind of IN dice are a good idea, >though I disagree with the "generic only" horns and halos dice. It's >stops being IN and just becomes goofy Christian mythos dice. But I >digress... ARGHHH!!! > >Are you gonna send this one up to the powers that be, Beth? Gonna let Andrew do it -- he knows who to tsalk to about that stuff. Here's a funky notion of mine, though -- gine thge target-number dice pips, and the CD nuimerals. At-a-glanvce-differention. (maybe give _only_ thetn or _only_ the cd dice the symbols? Dunno.) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:00:52 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice From: "Jason Schneiderman" > >> Which explains Dick Clark. He's clearly Bavarian. > >> > > *Nothing* adequately explains Dick Clark. > > The Corporeal Song of Entropy? Or an artifact, which would explain exactly what the Portrait of Dorian Gray has been up to for the last 50 years... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:16:13 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice > What about white-and-gold marbled dice for Celestials, >black-and-bronze for the Infernals? Nifty idea. What about the check die? Red and silver? - -- Andrew Hackard /\ "My money and my Promotional Writer /()\ [CENSORED] go to Steve Jackson Games / \ Illuminati University" andrew@sjgames.com /______\ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:20:12 EDT From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: IN> A few questions A few questions have come up when I thought about some things written in the books. They may fall under the category of "Stuff that was published prior to having a line editor, so we're stuck with it, but trying to work around it," but for peace of mind, I was hoping people could help me work them out. First of all, since Word-sharing has become a case of Belial and Gabriel only, what's happened to the Angel and Demon of Statistics? I believe both are mentioned in the APG page on Seraphim, with the angel being a Seraph, and the demon being a Balseraph. As a side note, being a mathematician and having knowledge of statistics, I'm not sure that a Seraph is a good choice for this Word. Statistical analysis usually involves assumption, which I've never thought of Seraphim as being good at. I'd be much happier if the Angel of Statistics were an Elohite of Judgement, using unbiased opinions to make the assumptions. However, a Seraph could easily be the Angel of Descriptive Statistics, which may be what most people think of when they use the word "statistics," because it involves the mean, median, mode, standard deviation, etc. A Balseraph is fine for the Demon of Misleading Statistics (the one who's responsible for all headache medicines being able to say that 7 out of 10 do! ! ctors choose their medicine over others). My guess is that he’d be serving the Media. Incidentally, both the Angel of Statistics and Demon of Statistics would both be fairly recent Word-bounds, since statistics (beyond maybe the mean and median) only really developed in the early 20th century (1920s or 30s, I believe). Second, I don't have Superiors 1 (or any other books) with me right now, so I'm going off of memory, but I'm fairly certain that I have it right. It had to do with Michael and Laurence's one time they met in conflict. As I recall, the line describing it went along the lines, "...both Superiors insist that it was just a ‘practice duel’..." Now, that's fine, but given that Michael's a Seraph and Laurence is said to never had a point of dissonance (which precludes him from lying in Heaven). I believe this line originated from either the main book or Night Music, so it fits in the “pre-Beth as Line Editor” stage. Was there a decision to imply that at least one of them is dissonant? Or, does this go in the “must change for next time” category? Or, does this mean that it really was just a practice duel between them, and War’s servitors are horribly misled and brag about something that they don’t understand? Finally, exactly when, in canon, did Michael become General of the Heavenly Host? From comments made way, way back by David Edelstein, it was canon that God declared Michael general. But, I was under the impression that God only communicated through Metatron (this impression was from the GMG timeline, I think), whose death at the hands of Lucifer was the beginning of the Rebellion. I think that there was a line either in the main book or the Final Trumpet that Michael became general after the Rebellion. From that, I had assumed that the Seraphim Council declared Michael general, something I’d probably keep for my personal game, but apparently not so in canon. Sam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:21:05 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice AAB: >At 12:17 PM -0700 5/19/00, Matthew W. wrote: >>Are you gonna send this one up to the powers that be, Beth? > >Gonna let Andrew do it -- he knows who to tsalk to about that >stuff. Actually, I pretty much AM the person to talk to about that stuff, in consultation with Ross Jepson (our Marketing Director) and Steve. That's one reason I'm trying to be realistic, without being too negative -- I think IN dice are a great idea, but at the same time I have to be realistic about what will and won't sell. Two separate sets of dice -- sure. Two dozen? Probably not. Anyone clamoring for corporeal dice? ;-) >Here's a funky notion of mine, though -- gine thge target-number dice >pips, and the CD nuimerals. At-a-glanvce-differention. (maybe give _only_ >thetn or _only_ the cd dice the symbols? Dunno.) Can't speak for everyone, but I can distinguish colors and shades MUCH more quickly than pips vs. numbers. - -- Andrew Hackard /\ "My money and my Promotional Writer /()\ [CENSORED] go to Steve Jackson Games / \ Illuminati University" andrew@sjgames.com /______\ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:19:45 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice At 2:13 PM -0400 5/19/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 12:17 PM -0700 5/19/00, Matthew W. wrote: > >Well, everybody seems to think some kind of IN dice are a good idea, > >though I disagree with the "generic only" horns and halos dice. It's > >stops being IN and just becomes goofy Christian mythos dice. But I > >digress... ARGHHH!!! > > > >Are you gonna send this one up to the powers that be, Beth? > >Gonna let Andrew do it -- he knows who to tsalk to about that >stuff. > >Here's a funky notion of mine, though -- gine thge target-number dice >pips, and the CD nuimerals. At-a-glanvce-differention. (maybe give _only_ >thetn or _only_ the cd dice the symbols? Dunno.) > The CD could be done in Skreetch Caps, too, to give it that IN look. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:33:07 -0400 From: "EDG" Subject: Re: IN> A few questions > First of all, since Word-sharing has become a case of Belial and Gabriel only, > what's happened to the Angel and Demon of Statistics? I believe both are I don't know that this is strictly accurate. Certainly these two are the most known pair, but there are several others in canon - the Angel and Demon of Cities, to name a pair. > Or, does this mean that it really was just a practice duel between them, and > War’s servitors are horribly misled and brag about something that > they don’t understand? Probably the latter. ^_^ > Finally, exactly when, in canon, did Michael become General of the Heavenly > Host? He didn't. Laurence did, right after Uriel was recalled. I believe it might have been the same motion - though my not having my books with me hinders my research on this point. :( My two cents. Let's see if they're actually worth anything. ^_^ - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:47:28 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A few questions At 2:20 PM -0400 5/19/00, Samovar3@aol.com wrote: >First of all, since Word-sharing has become a case of Belial and Gabriel only, It hasn't. They're just the only detailed Superiors to share. See the GMG. >Second, I don't have Superiors 1 (or any other books) with me right now, so I'm going off of memory, but I'm fairly certain that I have it right. It had to do with Michael and Laurence's one time they met in conflict. As I recall, the line describing it went along the lines, "...both Superiors insist that it was just a ‘practice duel’..." Now, that's fine, but given that Michael's a Seraph and Laurence is said to never had a point of dissonance (which precludes him from lying in Heaven). I believe this line originated from either the main book or Night Music, so it fits in the “pre-Beth as Line Editor” stage. Was there a decision to imply that at least one of them is dissonant? Or, does this go in the “must change for next time” category? Or, does this mean that it really was just a practice duel between them, and War’s servitors are horribly misled and brag about something that they don’t understand? Just because something was for practice doesn't mean that it didn't show skill -- it was probably a pretty definite victory, for all that it was only sparring & not serious. BTW, fix those smartquotes! >Finally, exactly when, in canon, did Michael become General of the Heavenly >Host? A long time ago. This is probably in the GMG. (Okay, maybe God doesn't porecisely _speak_ anymore -- there are still blatant Interventions.) - --Beth, catching up as she can, typing with a baby (iolanthe) in her lap and no computer desk -- the keyboard shares the lap, and the trackball sits on a pile of GURPS books. I want the computer desk back! Moving is a hassle. (PS: may be typing with 1 hand, or even toe! Please forgive capitalization.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:36:15 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Here's a funky notion of mine, though -- gine thge target-number dice > pips, and the CD nuimerals. At-a-glanvce-differention. (maybe give _only_> thetn or _only_ the cd dice the symbols? Dunno.) Is-ums typing widd da widdle baby wiggling 'oo uch? Yes she is! Yes she IS! - -David (gaga googoo) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:41:57 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> A few questions Samovar3@aol.com wrote: > First of all, since Word-sharing has become a case of Belial and Gabriel only, what's happened to the Angel and Demon of Statistics? I believe both are mentioned in the APG page on Seraphim, with the angel being a Seraph, and the demon being a Balseraph. See the GMG. >>> As I recall, the line describing it went along the lines, "...both Superiors insist that it was just a ‘practice duel’..." Now, that's fine, but given that Michael's a Seraph and Laurence is said to never had a point of dissonance (which precludes him from lying in Heaven). I believe this line originated from either the main book or Night Music, so it fits in the “pre-Beth as Line Editor” stage. Was there a decision to imply that at least one of them is dissonant?<<< It's a rumor that neither of them comment on. Refusing to answer questions from impudent Servitors is not dissonant.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:54:34 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> A few questions At 2:20 PM -0400 5/19/00, Samovar3@aol.com wrote: >A few questions have come up when I thought about some things >written in the books. They may fall under the category of "Stuff >that was published prior to having a line editor, so we're stuck >with it, but trying to work around it," but for peace of mind, I was >hoping people could help me work them out. With this day I'm having, I'm happy to have something else to think about, so sure! >First of all, since Word-sharing has become a case of Belial and >Gabriel only, what's happened to the Angel and Demon of Statistics? >I believe both are mentioned in the APG page on Seraphim, with the >angel being a Seraph, and the demon being a Balseraph. Word-sharing still exists outside of Gabriel and Belial. It's not nearly the problem for non-Superiors as it is for Superiors. The Angel and Demon of Statistics will be aware of each other, and of the capacity for Statistical Inquiry to both reveal new truths and disguise the truth under out of context numbers, but aren't likely to be driven as insane over each other. > As a side note, being a mathematician and having knowledge of >statistics, I'm not sure that a Seraph is a good choice for this >Word. Statistical analysis usually involves assumption, which I've >never thought of Seraphim as being good at. I'd be much happier if >the Angel of Statistics were an Elohite of Judgement, using unbiased >opinions to make the assumptions. I would tend to agree, but I can also see a Seraph being good at using Statistical models to reveal the truth (as stated above), which would fit a Seraph's mindset well. > However, a Seraph could easily be the Angel of Descriptive >Statistics, which may be what most people think of when they use the >word "statistics," because it involves the mean, median, mode, >standard deviation, etc. It's also possible that the Seraph got the Word of Descriptive Statistics, and proved to be very effective at it, leading him to be given a Word Expansion to the Word of Statistics. There's a temptation to see Word-bound as springing wholly from the Symphony, wearing armor and looking like Athena. In "reality," the process of getting a Word is laborious and political, and involves jumping through hoops. And Celestials with lesser Words can climb up to stronger Words easily enough. >Incidentally, both the Angel of Statistics and Demon of adjective here> Statistics would both be fairly recent Word-bounds, >since statistics (beyond maybe the mean and median) only really >developed in the early 20th century (1920s or 30s, I believe). Makes sense, though as stated before, there's no reason they couldn't both be Word-bound to Statistics, and do battle across the subtle plain of their Word. If you get the GMG, Word-Battles are described on p.33. >Second, I don't have Superiors 1 (or any other books) with me right >now, so I'm going off of memory, but I'm fairly certain that I have >it right. It had to do with Michael and Laurence's one time they >met in conflict. As I recall, the line describing it went along the >lines, "...both Superiors insist that it was just a ‘practice >duel’..." Now, that's fine, but given that Michael's a Seraph >and Laurence is said to never had a point of dissonance (which >precludes him from lying in Heaven). It was just a practice duel. As such: [Michael] Laurence -- got a minute? [Laurence] I am rather busy, Firstborn, but I can always make time for you. [Michael] Excellent. I thought perhaps we might work out together. Say... a duel. For practice, of course. To sharpen our skills. [Laurence] A... duel? [Michael] A practice duel, yes. [Laurence] I would never refuse a... practice duel, Firstborn. Come, let's go. Now, it should be somewhat clear that Michael is really trying to teach Laurence a lesson (which Laurence *definitely* understood). But the form that lesson took *was* a practice duel, and both Superiors can claim it was a practice duel without lying. Celestial is truthful, but it is also subtle, and so are Seraphim. >Or, does this mean that it really was just a practice duel between >them, and War’s servitors are horribly misled and brag about >something that they don’t understand? When the rebel basketball player who walked off the team when his calls as captain were being attacked by one of the spectator challenges the team basketball captain to a quick game of one on one - -- just for practice, man -- and beats the new captain 11 to 6, the rebel's supporters are going to razz the basketball team, even if the team is winning the season. >Finally, exactly when, in canon, did Michael become General of the >Heavenly Host? From comments made way, way back by David Edelstein, >it was canon that God declared Michael general. But, I was under >the impression that God only communicated through Metatron (this >impression was from the GMG timeline, I think), whose death at the >hands of Lucifer was the beginning of the Rebellion. I think that >there was a line either in the main book or the Final Trumpet that >Michael became general after the Rebellion. From that, I had >assumed that the Seraphim Council declared Michael general, >something I’d probably keep for my personal game, but >apparently not so in canon. Metatron was killed, but God still spoke for a bit after that. Apparently it wasn't direct, so much as (I assume) through Yves, who is known to talk to God, and through Gabriel who is a prophet. According to the GMG timeline, Michael received the Word of War *after* the Fall, and was declared General by God (explicitly) at the same time. One interesting note: of the three Generals of the Heavenly Host, only one (Uriel) was chosen by the Seraphim Council. God interceded to acquit Michael of his conviction (after, it should be noted, twenty-two thousand years or so of War), but as near as I can tell God didn't promote Uriel directly. (David? Am I off here?) And of the three Generals, Uriel is the one who is the most controversial. Laurence is still regarded as a child, but God's appointment carries great weight. Many still pine for Michael. But no one, even Uriel's supporters, pines for Uriel as Commander of God's Armies, save maybe his supporters. Oh, some pine for *Uriel,* but that's not the same thing. Anyway -- hope that helps. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:09:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "David M. Barr" Subject: IN> baby talk (was re: IN Dice) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> Here's a funky notion of mine, though -- gine >>thge target-number dice >> pips, and the CD nuimerals. >>At-a-glanvce-differention. (maybe give >>only_> thetn or _only_ the cd dice the symbols? >> Dunno.) >Is-ums typing widd da widdle baby wiggling 'oo >uch? Yes she is! Yes she IS! -David (gaga googoo) Ow. For some obscure reason that i cannot adequately explain, my first thought was ArchAngel David replying to Beths post, in that manner. Ow. Ow. Ow. Dice. Distinctly different colors for the check digits' die are likely to be easier for most people to distinguish, for assorted perceptual and psychological reasons (I know something about it, but am not an expert; <-grain of salt). Wit that said, i vote in favor of it an IN Dice set. As for the WW assorted game dice set. On the one hand, they were kind of cheesy, and largely pointless. But it was 10 dice for $6 (i think). 10d10, bought loose, would otherwise cost $7.50. In light of that, the dice (which were not totally hideous) were worth the investment to me. - -Daiv ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:26:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: IN> Andrew's suggestion for In Nomine Dice On Fri, 19 May 2000, Andrew Hackard wrote: > Actually, I pretty much AM the person to talk to about that stuff, in > consultation with Ross Jepson (our Marketing Director) and Steve. That's > one reason I'm trying to be realistic, without being too negative -- I > think IN dice are a great idea, but at the same time I have to be realistic > about what will and won't sell. Two separate sets of dice -- sure. Two > dozen? Probably not. How about seven sets, matched to choir/band? Example: *** Seraph/Balseraph Dice Three dice, one colored differently. The faces consist of the Seraph symbol, 2-pip, 3-pip, 4-pip, 5-pip, and the Balseraph symbol. *** That would make them far more appealing (the list seems to be clamoring for dice more 'custom' than just Heaven/Hell), and you only have to sell seven sets. If people want to get MORE custom, just sell FOUR dice. Two dark, two light. Angels use two light and a dark; demons use two dark and a light. Broader appeal that way for a small increase in cost. > Can't speak for everyone, but I can distinguish colors and shades MUCH more > quickly than pips vs. numbers. Ditto. Perhaps invert the check die? Two black w/gold pips and one gold w/black pips? - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "When nothing's funny, it gets easy to laugh at the drop of a hat - or a bomb." -- Devo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 13:53:17 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice >AAB: > >At 12:17 PM -0700 5/19/00, Matthew W. wrote: > >>Are you gonna send this one up to the powers that be, Beth? > > > >Gonna let Andrew do it -- he knows who to tsalk to about that > >stuff. > >Actually, I pretty much AM the person to talk to about that stuff, in >consultation with Ross Jepson (our Marketing Director) and Steve. That's >one reason I'm trying to be realistic, without being too negative -- I >think IN dice are a great idea, but at the same time I have to be realistic >about what will and won't sell. Two separate sets of dice -- sure. Two >dozen? Probably not. > >Anyone clamoring for corporeal dice? ;-) > > >Here's a funky notion of mine, though -- gine thge target-number dice > >pips, and the CD nuimerals. At-a-glanvce-differention. (maybe give _only_ > >thetn or _only_ the cd dice the symbols? Dunno.) Andrew: >Can't speak for everyone, but I can distinguish colors and shades MUCH more >quickly than pips vs. numbers. I quietly agree. Numbers vs Pips on similar colored dice would be waste of my time. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:01:09 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Dice > > What about white-and-gold marbled dice for Celestials, > >black-and-bronze for the Infernals? > >Nifty idea. What about the check die? Red and silver? > >-- >Andrew Hackard /\ "My money and my You know, if you *really* wanna cut cuts, only include four dice in the set. Two infernal, two angelic. The Check Die could just be a die from the opposite team. Just a thought. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/6045/index.html "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1634 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.