From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jun 13 14:55:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09523 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:55:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA26729 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:52:42 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:52:42 -0500 Message-Id: <200006131952.OAA26729@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1674 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, June 13 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1674 In this digest: Re: IN> IN Ramble - Addendum Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum Re: IN> Punishment for Killing a Human Re: IN> IN Rant 1 - The Problems Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum IN> New Picture IN> Re: Rant-Addendum Re: IN> Re: Rant-Addendum Essence (was Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum) IN> Trade, Greed, and Essence Re: IN> Trade, Greed, and Essence IN> Re: Theurgy Re: IN> Trade, Greed, and Essence Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum Re: IN> Re: Theurgy Re: IN> Trade, Greed, and Essence Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum Re: IN> Trade, Greed, and Essence Fwd: Re: IN> Punishment for Killing a Human Fwd: Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum Re: Essence (was Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum) RE: Essence (was Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum) Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum IN> Magic Types in In Nomine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 03:17:52 -0400 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> IN Ramble - Addendum >1) Explain exactly what Disturbance is within the setting, without stating a >single mechanic, in more than two sentences, and then tell me what the point >of it is. Essentially the Symphony works in a certain way, their are natural laws. Those include the fact that the corporeal realm is for corporeal beings, which means violates may be towed and/or fined at owner's expense. Anything that violates these natural laws (all actions by non-native beings, using Songs, etc) causes an alteration to the Symphony. Think of being at a classical concert. Now think about some jack-ass in the front jumping up on stage and starting to play his electric guitar. That's Disturbance. It is actually a very setting dependent phenominium. Its not just a simple mechanics shell, it actually represents something. Its not a spidy sense going off in the heads of the aware, but a definite sound that is different than the normal sound of the Symphony. Remember that celestials Perceive purely, not like humans. They sense the world primarly through incorporeal sound, the musical model is more than just a metaphor (at least the way I see it). Even mortals with Symphonic awareness tap into this, and can thus detect when things change signifcantly (theoretically one can pick out a celestial because they cause disturbance by having their vessel get hit by particles that shouldn't have hit them). Now the point of it in a purely mechanic sense, ripped from the setting and thus not nearly as cool as it is now, is that it keeps characters from using super wicked kewl powers to smite the lame-wads in their path. It can provide the GM a strong arm to force players into using certain strategies. When viewed this way, yes, it does seem like crap. However it is a very interesting story device also. Such as having a Disturbance build up as the Symphony detects something major about to happen, or echoes of long past events being descernable still (one game I GMd I had an eerie little bit of town that was once host to an appearance of Saminga, it never sounded right after that). It helps bring an otherworldliness to the game, as well as driving another wedge between corporeal and celestial beings by the way in which they understand and experience reality. And now I have rambled myself some essence, and may there be many rambling responses as to combat the growing power of Mathus. Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ofanite of Creation ArchRival of Mathus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 04:05:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Chris wrote: > 1) Explain exactly what Disturbance is within the setting, without stating a > single mechanic, in more than two sentences, and then tell me what the point > of it is. The physical universe is a finely-crafted setting, made lovingly by God, and just perfect the way it is. It's a Symphony, literally - all the beings in it play a part in the music being made. Unfortunately, celestials keep coming in and screwing things up. Celestials can't play this music - they're alien, from another plane of existence. All they can do is keep quiet...or screw up the music by breaking the instruments. Every human being is constantly playing the Symphony, like (let's say) a harp. When some demon comes along and whacks that human, the harp breaks and its lovely melody is replaced by the sound of... well, a harp breaking. Noticeable. If you want to see what effect this would have on a real symphony, head down to your nearest performance hall, wait for an opportune moment, then throw a brick into a bass drum. Yep, you'll hear it. > 2) Marc and Mammon must be two of the most powerful beings around. Essence, > if I'm not mistaken, can be used as celestial currency. It's what makes the > world go 'round, so to speak. So, basically, with Essence, the War can be > said, not only to be about humans, but by how much "money" one has. If > that's the case, then the truly powerful superiors are the ones with the > most Essence. So the game is a war of money. Since Marc is Trade and > Mammon is Greed, then they must be pretty potent indeed. Show me I'm wrong. My, my, you're in a challenging mood tonight, aren't you? Anyway, you're not wrong. Marc and Mammon *are* pretty potent, but not the most potent Superiors in the game, not by far. Marc is definitely up there. Mammon, on the other hand, is rather weak at the moment, having lost a lot of influence to Haagenti. Essence isn't money. Essence is essence. Money is money. > In fact, the game would probably be better off without Essence being in it > at all. And why do you think that? > 3) A 2nd Edition is an absolute requirement. But if they do it, then the > canon has to be fixed. Certain mechanics better explained (e.g. > Disturbance, Words, Distinctions, and Rewards - and without the need for a > GMG to do it). No more repetition of previous material in sourcebooks. A > significantly better explanation of the setting. And above all, don't do it > before spring of next year. You can't compete with D&D 3rd. Who agrees? I agree with it all, actually... except perhaps for the GMG comment. There are some topics, like Rewards, that should be *touched on* in the main book, but would be a space-waster if elaborated upon there; better to save that space for more info for the PLAYERS. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! When you're having a bad day, remember: It takes 42 muscles to frown, but only 4 to pull the trigger of a decent sniper rifle. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:49:08 -0600 From: "Chris" Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 2:05 AM Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum > Every human being is constantly playing the Symphony, like (let's say) a > harp. As I recall, humans are a natural extension of the Symphony, but it's always been stated that the *angels* are the instruments playing the Symphony. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 05:17:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Chris wrote: > > Every human being is constantly playing the Symphony, like (let's say) a > > harp. > > As I recall, humans are a natural extension of the Symphony, but it's always > been stated that the *angels* are the instruments playing the Symphony. I think you're mixing your metaphors here (not that I can blame you - the book does it all the time). Angels and Demons are NOT a part of the CORPOREAL world. That's the "Symphony" I'm talking about. They're not a part of it. They can't play along. All they can do is screw it up. (The book sometimes refers to the whole multiverse - all three planes - as The Symphony... sometimes it refers to just the Corporeal universe as The Symphony. It's hard to know exactly what 'universe' means sometimes. Hope this helps.) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! Q. What's the best thing that humans do for the planet? A. Die. (Dr. DynaSoar Iridium) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:22:19 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Punishment for Killing a Human At 9:52 PM -0700 6/12/00, Jo Hart wrote: >>From: "Charles Phipps" >>Your thoughts at this rule? What a good punishment from D is? >> > >I think of it this way. > >To an angel, death is not the absolute worst thing that can happen >to a human -- damnation is. If the angel thinks that by killing a >mortal they can save a soul (maybe that human was being a really bad >influence on someone), then Dominic would expect them to do it >without hesitation. If the mortal really deserved to die -- perhaps >he had committed some capital crime, but the law would never have >been able to touch him -- then again, Dominic isn't going to be >overly upset. I would think Dominic's dissonance conditions would apply, here. If it was his Servitors, and the human's crimes warranted death, then there would be no dissonance and the investigation would be perfunctory. If a Servitor *was* dissonant following a human's death, the investigation would be far more rigorous. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | in-sabre@annotations.com | Writer - Manager - IT Type - Poet Boy - In Nomine Freelancer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:05:05 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant 1 - The Problems - --On Mon, Jun 12, 2000 20:53 -0700 Maurice Lane wrote: > > Hold on, cognitive dissonance time here. This guy > wanted the possibility open to be able to knock off a > Superior ... > > ... and he was playing a _Mercurian_??? > More to the point, he was playing an *angel*? Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:23:15 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum Chris wrote: > 1) Explain exactly what Disturbance is within the setting, without stating a > single mechanic, in more than two sentences, and then tell me what the point > of it is. The celestial realms are a completely different plane of existence, utterly removed from corporeal existence. Celestials are native to those realms; they were created before the corporeal plane was brought into existence, and when they enter the corporeal plane, they are not just alien, but in many ways violate the laws of reality on that plane. God created them to perform certain tasks, which later included tuning up the corporeal realm, but overt use of celestial powers is like using a jackhammer; it may be powerful and get the job done, but it also shakes up everything in the vicinity, and using it recklessly can easily do more harm than good. Everything a celestial does on the corporeal plane disturbs the natural order of things, causes things to happen other than as they would have had the celestial not been present. If you believe in predestination, it means that they are altering God's foreordained plan, in which case angels should ONLY be acting to counteract the meddling of diabolicals; anything else, and they risk screwing with God's plan as much as demons do. If you believe in free will, then celestial interference is a supernatural abrogation of free will, altering fates and destines and rendering the "human question" moot. The point of it in the game is to provide a reason why celestials don't go around slinging Songs and supernatural powers at will, thus effectively taking over the world by pushing humans in any direction they please. > 2) Marc and Mammon must be two of the most powerful beings around. Essence, > if I'm not mistaken, can be used as celestial currency. It's what makes the > world go 'round, so to speak. So, basically, with Essence, the War can be > said, not only to be about humans, but by how much "money" one has. If > that's the case, then the truly powerful superiors are the ones with the > most Essence. So the game is a war of money. Since Marc is Trade and > Mammon is Greed, then they must be pretty potent indeed. Show me I'm wrong. > In fact, the game would probably be better off without Essence being in it > at all. This statement makes so many assumptions, I'm not sure where to begin. Yes, more Essence makes you more powerful, but Essence alone won't win the War, just like money alone won't win a war on Earth. Trade and Greed are powerful Words, but so are War, Death, the Wind, Fire, and other fundamental aspects of the universe. I don't know how your friend jumps to the conclusion that Marc and Mammon have to be the most powerful Superiors just because they're Heaven and Hell's bankers. > 3) A 2nd Edition is an absolute requirement. It would be nice. > But if they do it, then the> canon has to be fixed. The problem here is that your friend seems to be saying "Canon has to be changed to be what *I* want it to be." - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:41:31 GMT From: "Erich S. Arendall" Subject: IN> New Picture For those of you on the mailing list who love pictures: My friend, Bruce Ingram, drew a picture of my site's most popular non-canon Superior, Abatha: Demon Princess of Madness. ... The picture can be found at my page, of course! :) - -Erich S. Arendall "Shadow Sprite" Demon of Critical Failures at the Worst Possible Time for Players and the Best Time for GMs, Impudite of The Game - ------------------------- Touched by an Impudite http://www.impudite.com Go Directly to the Blog http://www.impudite.com/abt-blog.asp ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:59:18 -0400 From: "Jeremy M. Smith" Subject: IN> Re: Rant-Addendum > >1) Explain exactly what Disturbance is within the setting, without stating a >single mechanic, in more than two sentences, and then tell me what the point >of it is. I like the music analogy here. To the angels, the symphony is supposed to be a continuous beautiful body of music which the humans are immersed in, while the angels and demons exist outside as the players. A disturbance occurs when a note gets played "wrong". This happens when either an angel or demon interferes with the natural progression of the symphony-by damaging and destroying objects in it (damaging objects, killing humans), by stomping around where you don't belong (entering and leaving planes, summoning superiors), and by doing things that are not naturally possible in the symphony (songs, changing forms, etc.). The point is it's a great plot hook. I don't know how many adventures have began with or at least involved me saying, "You all hear a disturbance in the symphony." This is followed by my P.C.'s rushing into adventure. They aren't a very cautious lot. The disturbance mechanic also keeps everyone much more subtle on a day to day basis, if you follow it consistently. It keeps angels and demons from using their powers too overtly, lest they alert the other side (which may include squads of malakim or calabim just waiting for such stuff to happen.) >2) Marc and Mammon must be two of the most powerful beings around. Essence, >if I'm not mistaken, can be used as celestial currency. It's what makes the >world go 'round, so to speak. So, basically, with Essence, the War can be >said, not only to be about humans, but by how much "money" one has. If >that's the case, then the truly powerful superiors are the ones with the >most Essence. So the game is a war of money. Since Marc is Trade and >Mammon is Greed, then they must be pretty potent indeed. Show me I'm wrong. >In fact, the game would probably be better off without Essence being in it >at all. 1) I definitely think that essence is necessary for the game. It limits the power of all the characters, and makes them conserve themselves for the really important situations. Like disturbance, it keeps the game from becoming and out-and-out supers campaign. 2) I suppose the War is about essence as much as any war would be about money. You need the resources to fight a war. The more resources you have, the better you can fight the war. Marc and Mammon are probably quite powerful (they are superiors) as a result of their ability to understand and manipulate this form of currency. However, the total amount of essence available remains the same, and every Superior understands the need to have it. I don't think that so much gets traded to Marc and Mammon that they would be more powerful than the other Superiors. 3) I don't use Mammon too much IMC, but Marc and his servitors make great suppliers of services and equipment. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:22:52 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: Rant-Addendum At 9:59 AM -0400 6/13/00, Jeremy M. Smith wrote: >3) I don't use Mammon too much IMC, but Marc and his servitors make >great suppliers of services and equipment. Man, I do. Mammon makes such a perfect counterpoint to Marc, in a way Haagenti just doesn't. Haagenti comes across as Marc's nightmare -- the world of Trade spun out of control, with spending unrestricted across the board. Greed, on the other hand, *subverts* Trade and directly opposes it. The Greedy don't want to Trade. They want to hoard. They want to own *everything.* So, Greed is benefitted by Haagenti's overconsumption, as the ill-spent resources by the Gluttonous fuel the Greed of the producers who inspire them to spend. (There is more to Gluttony -- *much* more -- than the above, but these are how Marc and Haagenti conflict, and I think Mammon makes a better foil. As you can figure out from my Boston thingy.) - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:36:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Knop Subject: Essence (was Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum) On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Chris wrote: > 2) Marc and Mammon must be two of the most powerful beings around. Essence, > if I'm not mistaken, can be used as celestial currency. It's what makes the > world go 'round, so to speak. So, basically, with Essence, the War can be > said, not only to be about humans, but by how much "money" one has. If > that's the case, then the truly powerful superiors are the ones with the > most Essence. So the game is a war of money. Since Marc is Trade and > Mammon is Greed, then they must be pretty potent indeed. Show me I'm wrong. I would debate the point that Essence is a complete celestial analog of money. Your statement here sort of suggests a "Essence Mercantilism" philosophy. One thing to keep in mind is that the highly powerful Word-bound celestials (especially Superiors) are able to coax Essence out of the Symphony. While you can still draw analogs to money (investments, working to earn money, etc.), I would say that this breaks your statement that "the game is a war of money". It's a war for the hearts and minds of Humanity. Those who are winning over the hearts of Humanity are going to be getting more Essence. I don't doubt that Marc and Mammon are in fact very powerful. But I do doubt that their Words have much say in the trading of Essence, more so only in the human realms of trade and greed. > In fact, the game would probably be better off without Essence being in it > at all. I would argue that this would make it an entirely different game. Of course, if that's what you want to play, it's fine-- but Essence is a foundation of In Nomine, so it's almost moot to say it would be a different game without it. It might be like saying, "Demons are great, but angels are boring. It would be a better game witout Angels." That's more extreme, but similar. And, one saying htat might be right; some people would prefer something like Call of Cthulhu. But it would no longer really be what most of us think of as "In Nomine". - -Rob - -=-=-= Rob Knop =-= rknop@sonic.net =-= http://www.sonic.net/~rknop =-=-=- Playwrights, Producers, Actors, and Anybody Interested in Drama: Visit the Dramatic Exchange at http://www.dramex.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:39:35 EDT From: AngelPatriel@netscape.net Subject: IN> Trade, Greed, and Essence To continue the discussion of Essence, Marc, and Mammon, so you'll have a point to make with your contentious friend. Assume Essence is the most important thing, and it's money. That still doesn't make Marc and Mammon absolute rulers. Why? Well... If Marc is truly promoting Trade as a civilizing force for good, then he's not hoarding his Essence. He probably has it flowing around, being exchanged for goods and services, keeping a economy going. So he probably has some liquid assets as a safety net, a lot of hard assets that he has working the economy of Trade that he's not going to interfere with, and extra profits going into charitable and philanthropic means (and to support the war effort.) Mammon, on the other hand, isn't just going to spend his Essence. He's got it locked up in the big vault, and he swims in it. Spend his Essence? Let Valefor spend his essence! If Baal is so concerned about the War, let him finance it! Mammon, he'll just swim in the Essence. One of the aspects of greed is that it takes currency that can otherwise be put to productive use. So even though Mammon's got the Essence, he's not applying it to its full extent. Just my opinion, I don't know either of the guys personally... Pat - -- - ---------- Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:52:02 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Trade, Greed, and Essence >From: AngelPatriel@netscape.net >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >So even though Mammon's got the Essence, he's not applying it to its full >extent. > He's also more interested in gold and corporeal wealth than in Essence. (Think about it: what's so rare and precious about Essence? Every being in creation gets some every day ...) jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:27:09 EDT From: Daedalus3D@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: Theurgy Y'know, all this talk about yelping has clued me in to a very simple fact. Want to summon Celestials? Song of Thunder, baby. Perceiveable for miles around. Just make sure you have back up when they start to arrive. Thats all. Later. Daedalus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:47:56 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Trade, Greed, and Essence - --On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 11:39 +0000 AngelPatriel@netscape.net wrote: [Snip.] > > Mammon, on the other hand, isn't just going to spend his Essence. > He's got it locked up in the big vault, and he swims in it. Spend his > Essence? Let Valefor spend his essence! If Baal is so concerned about > the War, let him finance it! Mammon, he'll just swim in the Essence. > One of the aspects of greed is that it takes currency that can > otherwise be put to productive use. So even though Mammon's got the > Essence, he's not applying it to its full extent. > And now, thanks to Pat, I now picture the demon prince looking and acting exactly like Scrooge McDuck. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Which would actually explain Huey, Dewey, and Louie...") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:51:59 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum At 3:49 -0400 6/13/00, Chris wrote: >> Every human being is constantly playing the Symphony, like (let's say) a >> harp. > >As I recall, humans are a natural extension of the Symphony, but it's always >been stated that the *angels* are the instruments playing the Symphony. I don't think it says they're necessarily the *only* instruments. But they are the ones who are aware that they're playing -- humans are more unwitting players, since they can't normally hear the music they make. And they're not only players, but part of the music as well -- if you carry the musical analogy too far, it begins to break down. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:52:40 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Re: Theurgy - --On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 12:27 +0000 Daedalus3D@aol.com wrote: > Y'know, all this talk about yelping has clued me in to a very simple > fact. > > Want to summon Celestials? > > Song of Thunder, baby. > > Perceiveable for miles around. Just make sure you have back up when > they start to arrive. > Sort of lacks any fine control, though, doesn't it? You could easily call this a "summon every curious person, emergency worker, celestial, infernal, and meddling old biddy in the city" method. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("Grab your gun, Jed, we'd better investigate...") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:04:46 -0400 From: Mason Kramer Subject: Re: IN> Trade, Greed, and Essence > From: AngelPatriel@netscape.net > Mammon, on the other hand, isn't just going to spend his Essence. He's got it > locked up in the big vault, and he swims in it. Spend his Essence? Let Valefor > spend his essence! If Baal is so concerned about the War, let him finance it! > Mammon, he'll just swim in the Essence. Now, of course, I can't get the picture of Scrooge McDuck as Mammon out of my head.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:36:52 -0600 From: "Chris" Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum - ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Edelstein" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 7:23 AM Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum > > But if they do it, then the> canon has to be fixed. > > The problem here is that your friend seems to be saying "Canon has to be > changed to be what *I* want it to be." > > -David A better way of saying "the canon has to be fixed," would be to say, "All of the changes and inconsistancies and holes should be made into a cohesive and consistant whole. Areas that are CDaU should be better spelled out as CDaU and while responses to what is written cannot be predicted, there should be a true vision of where the game is going." Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:50:13 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Trade, Greed, and Essence > > Angel Patriel wrote: > > Mammon, he'll just swim in the Essence. > and Mason Kramer replied: > Now, of course, I can't get the picture of Scrooge McDuck as Mammon out of > my head.... The better to leave you unprepared for His Maleficness' Infernal powers! I leave the relevance of the comments of the hobbits re: Strider in the Prancing Pony Inn at Bree as a study for the reader. Oh, you want a hint? Okay, here's a paraphrase: He looks foul, but feels fair, while an agent of The Enemy [speak not the name of Sauron] would appear fair, but feel foul. Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven and LotR fanboy - -- "We are not always what we seem, and hardly ever what we dream." -Schmendrick Peter S. Beagle's "The Last Unicorn" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:20:13 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> Punishment for Killing a Human Remember to s u b s c r i b e to the in_nomine_posters-l for any address that you might send email from! >From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 04:42:02 -0500 >To: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [Matt Trent ] >Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 04:40:19 -0500 >From: Matt Trent >Reply-To: mtrent@bigfoot.com >Subject: Re: IN> Punishment for Killing a Human > >Charles Phipps wrote: >> > >Fair warning: IMC Dominic is so dark he's practically a blaspherah > >> Basically in my opinion killing a human being is no small matter to the >> forces of Heaven (in my opinion no one really gives a **** in Hell so to >> speak)... >> > >> Your thoughts at this rule? What a good punishment from D is? > >Well, I wouldn't agree with you completely. I think that a Triad would >be likely to haul you in for questioning if they found pornography in >the same house an angel was staying in. (yes this does make it very easy >to set up angels, and the demons do enjoy doing so) Also, I wouldn't >say that all of heaven agrees with him, after all as the Janusite said >'Don't worry we can outrun them'. Micheal's troops frequently feel that >mortal laws don't apply to them and are generally bloodthirsty anyway >(can you say Pride*? I knew you could.) And even though Novalis abhors >the thought of killing innocents, her group she specializes in Shunning >people who annoy her. I have the image of her appearing before a >servitor and giving him a *very* annoyed look, then reaching down to >burn a symbol of shame onto the luckless servitors forehead. from now >on all but his closest friends will ignore him and stop offering aid. >Dominic is likely to drop his servitors (if he is annoyed) into the >darkest cell of the tower of Judgment to be entertained by the relievers >who developed a fondness for sharp pointy objects. > >Also not everyone in hell is so glad to see humans perish wantonly. >Andre, Lilith, Kobal**, and Nybbys all know that they need humans around >to survive. One or two here or there is fine, but woe unto the demon who >accidentally kicks off WWIII. > >Trent > >*Jim Angel of Pride, second in command of the legions of War, Malakim of >War > >** yes i know. Canon Kobal is in favor of wanton destruction, but I >never claimed to run a canon universe. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:21:00 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum >From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 04:49:18 -0500 >To: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [Matt Trent ] >Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 04:47:36 -0500 >From: Matt Trent >Reply-To: mtrent@bigfoot.com >Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum > > > >Chris wrote: >> >> Hello all, >> 1) Explain exactly what Disturbance is within the setting, without stating a >> single mechanic, in more than two sentences, and then tell me what the point >> of it is. > >Disturbance is the Symphony adjusting to the outside forces acting on >it. Se the intro the the Silmarllion (sp?) by Tolkieen. > >> 2) Marc and Mammon must be two of the most powerful beings around. Essence, >> if I'm not mistaken, can be used as celestial currency. It's what makes the >> world go 'round, so to speak. So, basically, with Essence, the War can be >> said, not only to be about humans, but by how much "money" one has. If >> that's the case, then the truly powerful superiors are the ones with the >> most Essence. So the game is a war of money. Since Marc is Trade and >> Mammon is Greed, then they must be pretty potent indeed. Show me I'm wrong. >> In fact, the game would probably be better off without Essence being in it >> at all. > >Greed went bankrupt in the late 20s and no one said that Marc isn't an >unappreciated Powerhouse. > >> 3) A 2nd Edition is an absolute requirement. But if they do it, then the >> canon has to be fixed. Certain mechanics better explained (e.g. >> Disturbance, Words, Distinctions, and Rewards - and without the need for a >> GMG to do it). No more repetition of previous material in sourcebooks. A >> significantly better explanation of the setting. And above all, don't do it >> before spring of next year. You can't compete with D&D 3rd. Who agrees? > >I agree. > >Trent Ofanite of Doubt > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:33:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum At 12:58 AM -0600 6/13/00, Chris wrote: >1) Explain exactly what Disturbance is within the setting, without stating a >single mechanic, in more than two sentences, and then tell me what the point >of it is. Disturbance is what happens when something which should not be on the corporeal plane to begin with, does something that affects the "natural" course of events there. (More than two sentences? Oh, _that_ would be easy...) The point is, in game, it simply _is_ -- celestials are not natural on Earth, and the Symphony protests this. (The sound of the Symphony breaking is another cool notion...) Out of game, it helps keep the _mood_, at least slightly, that these are not supers with wings instead of capes -- when they throw their weight around, the universe screams. >2) Marc and Mammon must be two of the most powerful beings around. Man, you _NEED_ the Superiors 4 book. It's got Mammon in it. >3) A 2nd Edition is an absolute requirement. To quote a local anime mangling (from Fushigi Yugi, as it happens), "No duh." (A NybbasCookie to whoever can spot the quote's origins!) >Certain mechanics better explained (e.g. >Disturbance, Words, Distinctions, and Rewards - and without the need for a >GMG to do it). Eh? First I've heard of anyone crying out that anything above there just HAD to be fixed. What's broken about _Distinctions_, fer cryin' out loud? > No more repetition of previous material in sourcebooks. Stuff from the Cycle books is being moved out of them so that the Cycle can be let to go quietly out of print. In the few cases there have been repeated text from the main book, it was to reduce bookflipping -- the Liber Canticorum and Liber Reliquarum. Having "all the material in one place" did not significantly impact the overall pagecount, and garnered at least some praise from some readers. I don't remember any hostile comments about it, either, but that could easily be selective memory. O:> >A significantly better explanation of the setting. This may well fall into the category of "YMMV" -- and/or take far too many pages. Now, if he _wants_ a $50, two volume "main book".... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:40:48 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Essence (was Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum) At 8:36 AM -0700 6/13/00, Robert Knop wrote: >[...] but Essence is a foundation of In Nomine, Indeed, in an early draft of the rules I dug up somewhere, Essence and character points are _one and the same_. You spend Essence to make a vessel, for instance, and get it back again if the vessel is toasted. IIRC. I thought that was a very interesting mechanic and was SO glad that they didn't use it for the final version. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:33:01 -0700 From: Steven Feldon Subject: RE: Essence (was Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum) That version of the rules was very interesting, if I recall it: you could spontaneously acquire skills or songs or even _objects_: need a screwdriver? One "permanent" essence to create it, and then you could bring it forth again for one "temporary" essence. This version also had _four_ forms for every celestial--corporeal, celestial, ethereal, and "true". The true form was so hard to attain that the average celestial _never_did_it_. You can see why that didn't make the cut. . . . steve - -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth McCoy [mailto:emccoy@nh.ultranet.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 12:41 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: Essence (was Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum) At 8:36 AM -0700 6/13/00, Robert Knop wrote: >[...] but Essence is a foundation of In Nomine, Indeed, in an early draft of the rules I dug up somewhere, Essence and character points are _one and the same_. You spend Essence to make a vessel, for instance, and get it back again if the vessel is toasted. IIRC. I thought that was a very interesting mechanic and was SO glad that they didn't use it for the final version. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:34:50 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> IN Rant - Addendum At 3:33 PM -0400 6/13/00, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 12:58 AM -0600 6/13/00, Chris wrote: > > >Certain mechanics better explained (e.g. > >Disturbance, Words, Distinctions, and Rewards - and without the need for a > >GMG to do it). > >Eh? First I've heard of anyone crying out that anything above there >just HAD to be fixed. What's broken about _Distinctions_, fer cryin' >out loud? Well, no offense whatsoever to Chris, but it sounds like his player is just grabbing for straws, here. Frankly, there's plenty of information about rewards and Words in the Main Book, not needing the GMG. And Distinctions never receive more explanation elsewhere that I can recall. "Here is a Distinction. You receive it when your Superior (Read, GM) is very impressed with you." In other words, no matter what answers are given, this player says "well, there's not enough about X" or "Y shouldn't exist." (My favorite of these comments is Essence. I mean, the Essence mechanic is simple. "Here's a bit of luck and miracle. Angels, Demons and Soldiers can use it to improve their odds or fuel Songs and other powers." It serves similarly to Endurance in Champions or some forms of Fatigue in GURPS. But because there is some mention somewhere that Hell uses it like currency, it should be *eliminated.* Excuse me?) > > No more repetition of previous material in sourcebooks. I couldn't disagree more. There is a strong reason to *collate* material. The whole Superiors line is based on the need to take multiple sources for information and make them *one* source for information, expanding and improving the quality of that information. It is vastly easier for me to turn to Superiors 1 than to grab my Main Book and remember which book had the Laurence writeup in the Revelations Cycle, plus bits of the APG. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:45:17 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Magic Types in In Nomine As a good rule of thumb I have a chart for the use of Celestial Magicks in In Nomine: Kabbalism: The Invocation of Angels. The Metatron (or whichever angel you want to use) appeared to King Solomon and told him about the War in Heaven and other aspects of it before teaching him numereous songs of healing, distinction, etc which basically more or less had the same effects as angel's songs did. Also "Therugy" comes from the same princibles as the Song of "Attention-Getting" (summoning) which implies basically if you know an angels name, his word if he has one, his Superior, and any distinctions he might have you have a reasonably chance of knowing that in Israel someone wants to talk to you. In the Old days a number of Angels in heaven took this seriously enough to go and talk to the potential soldier. Goetism: Basically the Kronos variant of Kabbalism; everything you know about it is basically a lie (Balseraphs don't usually share true info). Like Mummys, Vampires, and many mortal sorcerors taught songs by the demons. The song of attraction is shared and the names given of *other* demons usually servants of the Demon's superior. Faking binding rituals and *circles of protection* is probably here but lawful demons may abide by pacts (a pact with Baal/Lilith will merit usually a demon bodygaurd/consort for a *mere* lifetime if the stakes are and maybe more if the plan is good). In any case invoking superiors when your a human being better be done when you have a *DAMN* good thing to offer (no pun intended) whether it's angels or mortals. Shaminism/Elementalism/Cthulhu Magic: Basically again it's the Ethereal version of Kabbalism and thus much less documented. Only a few gods ever had the clout or desire to involve mortals in their affairs with songs or the summoning of their servitors. After Uriel's Crusade I'm guessing very few of the Gods actually answer these New-Age invocations but quite a few I think still work from the newer gods in any case. Sorcery: Inforcing your will on the Symphony-basically what you saw in the Marches. In my game I make it primarilly dream and spirit based. Here you use the power of dreams to create Ethereal changes in the Symphony. Like willing into existence a dragon to serve you at the high levels....and a Reliever in the Ethereals to whisper to the cop that he should forget your traffic ticket. Psychic Powers: Don't laugh-prodjects like this for Vapula and Jean are commonplace. Altering the monkey's brains is a hobby of Jean in order to compensate what he believes for inferior evolution. Basically they function like attunements in my opinion. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1674 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.