From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Jun 25 20:06:40 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA27127 for ; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:06:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id TAA21249 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:58:52 -0500 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:58:52 -0500 Message-Id: <200006260058.TAA21249@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1691 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, June 25 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1691 In this digest: Re: IN> How insane is Gabrielle? IN> Superiors 3: due? Re: IN> How insane is Gabrielle? Re: IN> Question re Balseraph resonance IN> The Angel of Forgetfulness Re: IN> How insane is Gabrielle? IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1690 Re: Opposites Attract (was Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) IN> How insane is Gabrielle? Re: IN> How insane is Gabrielle? Re: IN> Six Fists of Calabim came a knockin' Re: IN> Superiors 3: due? Re: IN> Superiors 3: due? Re: IN> Superiors 3: due? Re: IN> Superiors 3: due? Re: IN> Superiors 3: due? IN> Ewige Blumenkraft ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:12:08 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> How insane is Gabrielle? >This is a curious question but I was curious how everyone saw Gabrielle's >insanity manifesting and exactly what you thought the source was of her >madness (dissonance or an all too human cause?) >Basically the way everyone talks I think it started manifesting when she was >banished (or more precisley-willingly chose Exile) to her Volcano. There are several reasons for Gabriel's insanity -- or at least, her incomprehensible behaviour . . . (a) Divine inspiration. As Redneck said, she hears the Divine and works on unexplainable priorities and delivers messages that may not apparently make sense, and takes actions that are not predictable to anybody working solely on human (or angelic) perceptions or frames of logic. (b) Belial. His Word plays through Gabriel's own, perverting the nature of Fire, causing Gabriel personal dissonance and pain. It drives her to destroy, yet doing so would be to affirm his Word and damage her own, and so she restrains herself -- which doesn't help her own stability or stop the agony. (c) Fire itself, as a Word, isn't stable/sensible/practical/restrained. Look at Janus, for an example of Wind-like behaviour. While this wouldn't necessarily be a problem on its own, it exacerbates matters as they stand. Someone who embodies the principle of Fire is not going to sit quietly down in a nice soothing place for the next fifty years to be analysed. She's going to get out there and burn cruel things and bring the messages from God which are SCREAMING at the back of her brain. (d) Lack of whole-hearted support from the rest of Heaven. Again, an exacerbating factor -- the trial for heresy by Dominic after the Islam affair did nothing to ease matters. (Some might also suggest that the dividing wedge between two Archangels who used to work together in the past (one to Judge the cruel, and the other to Punish them) may also have affected Gabriel's own stability and good judgement.) There are probably more reasons, but these are the principle ones that come to mind, for me. Genevieve ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:18:33 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Superiors 3: due? Just wondering when S3 was supposed to hit our local gaming store. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:42:31 -0400 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> How insane is Gabrielle? Genevieve Cogman wrote: > There are several reasons for Gabriel's insanity -- or at least, her > incomprehensible behaviour . . . > > (a) Divine inspiration. As Redneck said, she hears the Divine > and works on unexplainable priorities and delivers messages that may > not apparently make sense, and takes actions that are not predictable > to anybody working solely on human (or angelic) perceptions or frames > of logic. This is a good one, that I hadn't considered before. That some of Gabriels apparently 'insanity' isn't really her being insane at all, but rather just the simple fact that she's hearing messages from gods and being the personification of her Word. That makes a lot of sense. > (b) Belial. His Word plays through Gabriel's own, perverting the > nature of Fire, causing Gabriel personal dissonance and pain. It > drives her to destroy, yet doing so would be to affirm his Word and > damage her own, and so she restrains herself -- which doesn't help her > own stability or stop the agony. I view this in a diffrent way. I think that Belial, by taking many of the most destructive meanings of their Word and making them serve hell, is /distracting her/. She tries to *avoid* the destructive meanings of her Word, focusing on the "Divine Inspiration", "Gods Wrath" and other more symbolic meanings of fire. But, the fact is that fire /is/ destructive; it's a very real part of the Word. By ignoring that very real truth out of fear of strengthening Belial, she's acting against her /own nature/. It's similar to Janus (even if he does turn out to be Valefor; I mean, for gods sake, they give out identical attunements) and his word of Wind. He doesn't ignore the parts of his Word that Valefor embodies....making him a lot more stable, and a lot more true to himself, than Gabriel. - -- Brandon L. Quina (39755700 ; brandonq@bellsouth.net) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:52:22 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Question re Balseraph resonance [on mindsculpting by Bals] >I'd think it would fall apart very quickly, then. An Elohite >might, on a low check digit, get a plausible reading, but >I think a Malakite would get the actual good and bad deeds of >the Hellsworn, and a Mercurian would get his actual social >relations. A seraph would know that he truly *believed* himself >to be "Frank," but on a check digit of 6 would also know who >he really was and why. I'd think. IMC, Mercs need to beat a Role's level on their CD in order to get "real" information; otherwise they get info on the Role. Mals, OTOH, always get the straight dope. My reasoning here is 1) They were created at (or just after) the Fall, so their resonance is more likely to take demonic obfuscation into account; and, 2) There has to be some reason that demons fear them so very much. Their resonance, after all, isn't combat related; it's basically a bad-guy detector. So I say it's a very _good_ bad-guy detector, better than other angelic resonances. Demons know that there's one Choir that can't be fooled... Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:23:27 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Angel of Forgetfulness Aaron wrote: >This is a Seraph? Trying to make people forget the Truth? Seems odd. >Mercurian, Malakite, Cherub, I can see those. Well I'm still working that out but as he's occasionally dissonant it seems to fit fairly well with him. Conflicted with his passionate beliefs about the truth of God (as opposed to what he KNOWS is accurate) and the feeling that some truths are too painful for humanity to handle...or should be forgotton as to never exist. (Hatred, pain, suffering, and despair-especially among angels to demons and vice versa). Thus he is torn against the normally rather open (read: blunt) nature of his Choir. Mostly I blame this on spending a very long time amongst humanity with Eli and being "brother" to the current holder of the Word of Hate who fell whom he considers his responsibility to defeat the works of. (I felt this was a good background for a complex character) >If he doesn't have it already, Blandine's Healing Dream attunement is >*perfect* for that Word. >Hmm... Good call there. >Blessed Forgetfulness(servitor attunement) >Not every memory is supposed to last forever. Those caused by celestial >interference certainly are not. With a touch, and five Essence, the angel >may remove all memories from a mortal that were the direct result of >supernatural events(if it makes a disturbance, it's supernatural). This may >very well leave large gaps in the mortal's memory; if more than a month's >worth of memories are erased, the mortal must make a Will roll or aquire >some form of Ethereal disadvantage related to his selective amnesia. >Thoughts? Very intriguing and this might actually be useful for dealing with Demon-caused insanities, fears, and other traumas's quite well. In retrospect this is giving me some story hooks... The word of Forgetfulness being given to a seraph probably will meet some significant opposition from well...the Seraphs by the very nature of the word. Plus if he gets this it looks like he'll rise very high on Beleth's hit list (she wants folk to remember nightmares) - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:50:14 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> How insane is Gabrielle? Our spies report that on 07:12 PM 6/24/00 +0100, Genevieve Cogman said: >(b) Belial. His Word plays through Gabriel's own, perverting the nature of >Fire, causing Gabriel personal dissonance and pain. It drives her to >destroy, yet doing so would be to affirm his Word and damage her own, and so >she restrains herself -- which doesn't help her own stability or stop the >agony. I remember a theory, which I quite liked, which may have been in a book or on the list. It all melds together in my head into WhatMyGameUses. The theory went like this: Fire can be destructive. Destruction is not always evil. (Creation also encompasses destruction and occasionally your living room, but that's another story) Belial seized upon and interpreted the Infernal Word of Fire to be the physical destruction elements. Gabriel has responded to this by pulling out of those areas, which can't be easy for her, because for a long time she was all of Fire. So she is repressing essential aspects of herself to ... avoid strengthening Belial? Because she's scared of accidentally being cruel? There could be many reasons. But that kind of repression just isn't good for one's mental health. That is one view of Gabriel's mental state that I've always liked. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:17:32 +0100 From: "mink" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1690 Re : Number 1690 Re; Nephallim Well imc the grigori srill play a very active part in the war, however when they mate with a corporeal they are gifted with 2 children, one is a soldier to be, the other is ofthen taken away never to be seen again. The Nephallim is the child that gets taken away, and its given to a hellsworn family, in exchange for their healthy normal child which is to innocent to be used in the war. Many of the nephallim are sacrificed to the demons the famillies work for, but a quarter are brought up and taught their history, albeit a skewed version of it. The Nephallim that survive often seek revenge against their twin sibling for being the 'chosen' child. Further more i have it that the soldier Children life only normal span lives where as the Nephallim children live twice as long but mature a little slower than normal folks. The angels know little about all this and only a handful of demons know of it. Re: angel of forgetfulness hmm the 5 essence expenditure is a little steep i think, 3 would be better. nice idea though. Re: True names. A while ago i think i put a name generator in to the digest, if you want a copy of it just mail me and i'll be more than happy to send it on to you. It was about 20 digests ago, but i've expanded it now. its based on things the person likes.dislikes and cares deeply for. the standard name lenght is 9 to 15 letters long so its not to bad for quick checking. Re: Vapula The V meister isnt rich, he's always trying for research grants from a dozen of the richer demon princes. As well as not being rich he's loopy as a rollercoaster. Re: Gabriels sanity She ain't the loon sitting in the corner kind of nut bar, oh no, she has much more of a focus than that i feel, fire is intense but it burns whatever gets near, a tree gets set alight but the forest happens to burn down as well. Her lack of sanity is contagious, nfecting those around her whilst in her presence, after she leaves then the sanity levels of after a while. But thats all just in my campaign and oppinion. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:13:13 -0400 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: Opposites Attract (was Re: IN> GURPS IN Canon (loooong) - -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > >> > I've never really liked having War and The War as opposites. > >> > Not since Laurence became an Archangel, anyway. The Sword and > >> > The War seem to be much better opposites, on a conceptual level. I've always pictured it as a /pride/ kind of thing. Baal might spend a lot more time planning against Laurence's strategy (which are heavily influenced, at times, by advice from Michael and David) and trying to topple the armies of Heaven (which Michael does *not* command, remember). In fact, the entire /purpose/ of his Principality, The Blood Soaked Plains of Gehenna, seems to be training his forces for the final battle against the Armies of Heaven. I.e., fighting Laurence. That just doesn't change the fact that, when Armageddon comes, Baal and Michael are going to face off. Maybe, afterwards, Baal would go after Laurence...assuming Baal survived the battle, o'course. However, the pure fact is...Baal wants a piece of Michael. Why? Pride. After all, this is the person who -- especially if you don't believe that God really exists as a tangible persona -- threw you out of Heaven. He's also the opponent whom Baal /respects/; he still views Laurence as very wet behind the ears. So, he wants to pound Michael in the ground a way of saying, "Hah! You were *wrong*!" It's the whole "superiority" and "competition" outer traits as described in the 'Demonic Mind' part of the IPG. > >> granted. whom do we pair with War, then? *everybody?* ;) *chuckles* To some extent, yes. ;) > >Then again, War probably *does* pair off against every Word in Hell. > >Michael's always struck me as an overachiever. > He probably does pair off against everything diabolical, but that doesn't strike me as the mark of an overachiever. Agreed; Michael is tough. (: Of course, to the same extent, Baal faces off against all the Archangels. And, I don't think he's a pushover either... - -- Brandon L. Quina (39755700 ; brandonq@bellsouth.net) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:20:58 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> How insane is Gabrielle? >I treat her insanity as a result of a confused perception of the Symphony >on all levels, plus a very deep-rooted anger. Fire is not supposed to be >happy or sad, it just is; but Gabriel's extremely angry. She feels >betrayed, and thus clings to those she feels she can trust. She doubts >herself, and she passes those doubts onto others. Most fundamentally, she >is tuned in on the Higher Heavens, and as such her perceptions often clash >radically with those of anyone else. As such, she is virtually incapable of >rational thought, or at the very least anything that -appears- rational. Okay so basically as a Psychology student i should remember these facts when RPGing Gabrielle.... 1. Gabrielle is definately angry at those she percieves who have betrayed her-that is a given. Mentioning the name Dominic about her is like admitting your a bloodthirsty rapist demon around a Malakim of Dominic. This we knew. 2. Gabrielle is extreme need of comfort from those she does not commands and likely shows her gentle side to those she trusts (those who defended her or those she hasn't met in Heaven or heard of bad things from). 3. Gabrielle is perpetually far away in look and personality as if she's hearing something about the person she's talking too from far away...and she is...indicating it might seriously alter her perception in a momment's notice. This brings up a question also if Gabrielle is especially passionate about not only her beliefs but also all things as she *IS* technically Fire (a word denoting passion) Thus we get a good look at a woman in dire need of friends (she likely is very rewarding to those she does trusts IMHO) and possesed of a extreme temper. Prone to listing to God about people whom she meets but often percieved as mood swings. Correct? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:43:30 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> How insane is Gabrielle? >2. Gabrielle is extreme need of comfort from those she does not commands and >likely shows her gentle side to those she trusts (those who defended her or >those she hasn't met in Heaven or heard of bad things from). Well . . . most of the time, yes. When she is in her Seriously Disturbed Mode, even though she is unlikely to actively assault someone she trusts, there might be problems for anybody standing too near her unless they are immune to flames. Her "gentle side" doesn't necessarily appear on any sensible schedule. She isn't humanly insane. >3. Gabrielle is perpetually far away in look and personality as if she's >hearing something about the person she's talking too from far away...and she >is...indicating it might seriously alter her perception in a momment's >notice. Absolutely. (Or, on really bad occasions, she gives them her Full Attention. Ever had an Archangel look you directly in the face, with eyes that burned with the pure light and fire of God, and speak to you personally? Any lesser angels should be trembling and/or on their knees.) >This brings up a question also if Gabrielle is especially passionate about >not only her beliefs but also all things as she *IS* technically Fire (a >word denoting passion) I think she is. She is never mild. Possibly distracted, and not giving her full attention, but never mild. >Thus we get a good look at a woman in dire need of friends (she likely is >very rewarding to those she does trusts IMHO) and possesed of a extreme >temper. Prone to listing to God about people whom she meets but often >percieved as mood swings. I think you may be doing Gabriel a disservice by visualising her as too human and too predictable. If she were that comprehensible, the Seraphim Council wouldn't have the problems with her that they do . . . While I agree that she is in dire need of friends, and absolute towards those whom she does trust, she is also an elemental force rather than just a human, even a powerful human, and she listens to, hears, and obeys the voice of God. To quote a bit of the Duino Elegies... Voices. Voices. Listen, my heart, as only saints have listened: until the gigantic call lifted them off the ground; yet they kept on, impossibly, kneeling and didn't notice at all: so complete was their listening. Not that you could endure God's voice--far from it. (First Duino Elegy, by Rainer Maria Rilke) Angels (they say) don't know whether it is the living they are moving among, or the dead. The eternal torrent whirls all ages along in it, through both realms forever, and their voices are drowned out in its thunderous roar. (First Duino Elegy, by Rainer Maria Rilke) - --- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:16:49 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Six Fists of Calabim came a knockin' - --On Fri, Jun 23, 2000 20:05 -0500 Prodigal wrote: > From: "Marc Bowden" >> >> --On Fri, Jun 23, 2000 4:08 AM -0500 Prodigal >> wrote: >> > >> > A Pride of Balseraphs (in honor of the First of their kind) >> >> Bucking for the word of Witty Puns That Take a Minute to Sink In, >> are we? > > I don't already have it? ;;;) > Touché. Cheerfully withdrawn. =) Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation (Preparing for a new Role, don't mind me if I sound distracted...) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 23:04:57 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Superiors 3: due? At 14:18 -0400 6/24/00, Douglas Muir wrote: >Just wondering when S3 was supposed to hit our local gaming store. Should be soon -- the LE got her copy from the printer, which usually means it's about to go into the distribution chain. Ditto with GURPS In Nomine. I'm guessing it will hit the stores next week, though I can't be sure. Usually products in the same month ship together, I think. (GURPS IN was supposed to ship this past week, but an Infernal Intervention apparently hit at the printers during the binding process, and it got delayed. Again. But it's definitely through the printing cycle now -- we got 3 copies directly from the printer this week. Looks good, despite my going over word-budget, making this one of the most art-light GURPS books ever. Though I *do* wonder what the "demon in a lake of fire" picture is doing on David's Superior writeup pages....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 00:55:25 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Superiors 3: due? At 11:04 PM 24/06/00 -0400, Walter Milliken wrote: >(GURPS IN was supposed to ship this past week, but an Infernal >Intervention >apparently hit at the printers during the binding process, and it got >delayed. Again. But it's definitely through the printing cycle now -- we >got 3 copies directly from the printer this week. We've gotten our preview copies of Sup 3 and GIN at SJ Games, too, and they are both sharp-looking books. The GIN cover, especially, is ten times better than the Web thumbnail makes it appear. Phil really did some nice detail work on this one. (That's not to say that the Sup 3 cover isn't great, before I get myself into trouble here. :-) ) - -- "People are stupider than anybody." | hackard@io.com -- Tom Lehrer | AIM: Talthybias | ICQ: 19083015 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:23:17 -0500 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> Superiors 3: due? >>We've gotten our preview copies of Sup 3 and GIN at SJ Games, too, and they are both sharp-looking books. The GIN cover, especially, is ten times better than the Web thumbnail makes it appear. Phil really did some nice detail work on this one. (That's not to say that the Sup 3 cover isn't great, before I get myself into trouble here. :-) )<< Thou shalt now be flogged severely with several wet noodles for saying good things about the Demon GURPS in this forum, my good sir! Ki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:50:12 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Superiors 3: due? At 7:23 AM -0500 6/25/00, Kiara S. Legner wrote: > >Thou shalt now be flogged severely with several wet noodles for saying good >things about the Demon GURPS in this forum, my good sir! > > > >Ki Now now, for all the attitude I've had, I had an opportunity to actually *see* GURPS IN (and Superiors 3) at a gaming demo this weekend, and they're both bloody beautiful works. GURPS In Nomine's layout and organization is very nice indeed, and does a good job of squeezing stuff down into 221 pages. And Sup3.... Wow. It's not just Gabriel. The Blandine Intro pic is *gorgeous,* for example. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | in-sabre@annotations.com | Writer - Manager - IT Type - Poet Boy - In Nomine Freelancer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:27:02 -0400 From: Jason Schneiderman Subject: Re: IN> Superiors 3: due? >>The GIN cover, especially, is ten >>times better than the Web thumbnail makes it appear. >Thou shalt now be flogged severely with several wet noodles for saying good >things about the Demon GURPS in this forum, my good sir! >Ki Wow. Evan Dorkin was right - GIN does make a man mean. Booze up and riot! Jason, who's not even seeking the Words of Milk and Cheese * * * * * "I'm addicted to stress that's the way that I get things done if I'm not underpressure then I sleep too long and I hang around like a bum and I think I'm going nowhere and that makes me nervous..." Jason Schneiderman jadasc@ma.ultranet.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:58:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Ewige Blumenkraft ... Evening, all. Got a little something different for you tonight. This came to me during an otherwise miserable weekend down in Florida, and I'm interested in your opinions. Oddly enough, I don't think it violates canon anywhere, so some of you might even be able to _use_ it, for a change. :) Please note that the below is set for default settings in brightness and contrast, and from a specific angelic viewpoint. You have been warned. :) Morgan Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Setting The Cat Among The Pigeons "So, Why Does A Nature Archangel Give A Flying Leap About Violence, Anyway?" Novalis has a tough job: one of the toughest, in fact. The central fact of the War is that Heaven is fighting Hell for control of creation. Hell consists of entities that have, for one reason or another, decided to oppose themselves to the will of their Creator. Whether it be pride, weakness, or simply ignorance, every demon can be assumed to be committed to their own vision of Creation, at everyone else's expense. Even their friends'. Even their Superior's. This is an alien viewpoint for angels: those who manage to embrace it tend to Fall. Worse, demons are _users_. Even the best of them discount the feelings of those weaker than them … and humans are almost always weaker. The worst of them kill, loot, rape and corrupt their way across the corporeal realm, taking delight in destruction for selfish reasons or no real reason at all. In other words, they are considered creatures steeped in evil. It's so damned _easy_ for Servitors of David or Laurence or Michael. They can simply divide the universe into Us, Them, and Clueless, and get right on with eliminating Them. Their Superiors have granted them the boon of black-and-white thinking. Even Michael, the subtlest of the three, has fallen into this trap: while he might use questionable or non-aligned assets, he'll never trust them, unless they formally align themselves with Heaven (if they can). The war faction has picked a very simple, and terrifyingly direct, methodology for winning. Novalis can't be so indulgent of her celestial limitations. Nothing and nobody is ever that simple. Even the most abjectly corrupt and depraved demon has a weak spot, a flaw in his or her mindset that can be used to drag the demon out of the Abyss. Someone has to act on this belief: the Host has too many angels that Smite their way through problems without thinking, and _needs_ those with enough moral courage to trust that their Cause Is Right, and not just The Cause That They Happened To Join. This is why Novalis prohibits unnecessary violence. Not because she hates the sight of blood, or because she believes in some tripe about how all you need is Love. If she honestly believed that, she wouldn't allow her Servitors to fight at all. Novalis discourages violence because it's too _easy_. Those who use it as a universal solution are, in her opinion, showing a deep-seated uncertainty in either their cause or their judgement. In other words, they show a fundamental weakness. And there is _no_ room for the weak in Novalis' front lines. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1691 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.