From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jul 7 18:38:27 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA32425 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:38:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id SAA17809 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:37:06 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:37:06 -0500 Message-Id: <200007072337.SAA17809@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1703 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, July 7 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1703 In this digest: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith IN> Origins Re: IN> Khalid and Faith IN> Khalid and Faith IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Metatron Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith IN> In Nomine bloopers Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Re: IN> Khalid and Faith IN> How much will Novalis put up with? IN> Just picked up S3 ... IN> I certainly hope this isn't an exception. Re: IN> Concerning Novalis ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 21:34:04 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Charles Phipps wrote: > Moses after all proved to the Israel with miracles a thousand times over his > proof, Jesus (whom Khalid recognizes as a prophet) healed and ressurected, > while Mohammed himself was a preacher and not a miracle worker-the aspects > are not absent from the religeon. But everyone who wasn't present to witness those events needs to have faith that they happened. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 22:14:07 -0400 From: Bull Subject: IN> Origins Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there's going to be any In Nomine stuff being run at Origins? There's nothing in the pre-reg book, but after the last couple of years and handling the Shadowrun Tourney for Origins, I'm surprised there's ANYTHING in the Pre-Reg book :] If there is, and IF i can mange to scrounge up a few minutes of free time during the weekend, I'd love to check it out :] Bull ____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 21:56:26 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith A further comment about Khalid and faith: any angel could go celestial in front of a human, perform a few Songs, and otherwise impress the bejeezus out of the mortal. And when he says "Lo, I am a servant of the Lord, thy God!", that will probably cause an unbeliever to seriously reevaluate his worldview. Likewise, the entire Holy Host could appear over the Superbowl and send millions flocking to churches. However, if humans decide to serve God because they have tangible proof that He exists, and in fact because they know that Avenging Angels with much smite-itude are running around on Earth (and conversely, that there really are demons who will torment bad people in Hell for all eternity), it's kind of like a child deciding to behave himself because he knows that his father is watching him (and holding a belt). True character is what you do when no one is watching. That's why Khalid forbids his angels to compromise anyone's faith -- how can you know if a human is TRULY faithful, and would really live a righteous life based only on his own inner compass, if you replace faith with certainty? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:16:22 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Khalid and Faith >Or he might describe it as "That book what humans seem to put a lot of time >and effort into it." YMMV. I doubt Yves settles for brevity. It seems dissonant to me. "It's currently that but is destined to be that." >Well, actually, in In Nomine Canon, the Bible is a book. Like he said. GMs >can modify whatever they want; it's still a book in canon. YMMV Yes...a book that is the spiritual history....oh for heaven's sake. Lord of the Rings is an epic and a number of books but no doubt Yves describes it as an allegory on good/evil, pride/sacrafice, and the war between heaven and hell...plus good afternoon reading. Michael agrees for once. Of course J.R.R. Tolkien Saint of Blandine is still typing away and frankly I'm glad of it. >Um, what? David's a nifty name, but the Biblical David and the Archangel of >Stone aren't the same person, I think. YMMV, though. Yes, your right they're not the same...however in In Nomine Cannon. David was a Saint of Stone if not the actual David in a vessel (the latter is a fun rumor but completely not true and made up by me). Check out the Real play aids for the Gamemaster's handbook on the site. http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.cgi?1308 I'm fairly sure it also describes moses Moses (c. 1300 B.C.) -- A prince of Egypt and a prophet of God, who led the Israelites for 40 years in the desert, gave them the Ten Commandments, and brought them to the promised land. David's is... King David (c. 1000 B.C.) -- Second King of Israel, Soldier of Stone, slayer of many diabolical servants. >According to the Bible, yes, Moses did stuff. He went up on a really big >rock and came down with two small rocks a month and a half later. He hit a >rock and water came out of it. He made a stick do a really good snake >impression. >Doesn't mean any of it actually happened - either IRL or in In Nomine. No but the Gamemaster guide said he was a prophet. This means basically he probably did give down the law of Moses and the Ten commandments...whether he did anything else I'll ask Khalid and hopefully get a truthful answer. >YMMV, of course. Pardon? >Where? In every single momment of my life as creation, when you go into one's heart and ask if there is a god and you hear him answer, and plus the numerous accounts of people who've been touched by miracles-of course not evidence to you. Evidence in Nomine is mostly due to Yves creating all the angels with memories of a God he made up of course....likely he never existed. However there being an ethereal Yawhew he might have the answer... >Well, either that or Islam holds Moses to be a prophet just as much as >Judaism and Christianity do. (I think. I may be making unfounded >statements about a perfectly innocent world religion.) YMMV, though. Well Khalid was THERE for the entire forty years in the desert as a vessel...I suspect he would know. It's how he got his word as an angel of Faith. If moses did any miracles-true miracles-then Khalid would know. However the problem is that as an angel he believes everything done by angels or done good (because of god's will) your going to get the answer OF COURSE HE DID MIRACLES no matter what and stony silence otherwise. >Do you mean fascist or farcical? I don't think the first one fits, although >it's a very good epithet to apply to make people respond angrily and >violently to you. Ummm why? Frankly this is a list satirizing perceptions about God, Angels, Good and Evil for the vast majority of the part being extremely humourous even as it deals with (like all satire) the real questions behind it. We have atheists, wiccans, christians, jews, and probably many a muslim on the list-if they can all coexist peacefully in appreciation of a rocking game system with intelligent humourous fun- I doubt they'll get very mad about my calling the jerk who sneazed up the universe in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the galaxy, a jerk. >"I refuse to prove that I exist," said God, "because proof denies faith, and >without faith I am nothing." >Again. If you prove something, there's no faith involved. But YMMV. Needless to say the point was hotly contested. >Um... and? YMMV. YOU DISCOVER THE MOST POWERFUL BEING IN THE OMNIVERSE IS CLEANING DOMINIC'S TOILETS AND YOU NEED AN *AND*?! hehe sorry for the shouting I just found it very amusing. >Where? In the fact that Michael has a heaven to wonder about that was used to be run like it used to. >Khalid is far from a scientist. Let's put it this way: I never said he was, I said I was. Which I am. Though unfortunately I'm not pursuing sociology or biology as a profession for a higher calling...plus writing on the side. Khalid is more a man who believes science requires trust just the same as faith but believes it's less meaningful and distracting from morality for the most part with the majority of Vapula/Nybblas produced-gadgets. >I'm looking at my computer. I know that it is there. I can see it, touch >it, hear it, smell it, taste it (if I'm weird enough). I don't need faith >to know that my computer is there. Uh huh. Unless you've been hypnotised or are dreaming. For all you know the computer before you is entirely the product of a balseraph's resonance with a little illusion song. You also have Faith that your not a 6000 year old Alien in a human vessel that crashlanded on Earth but whose hypnotized the town in order to cover up his vessel and wiped his brain in order to make the wait easier for theri arrival. Plus the Platonic question of whether anything is real or just conjured by our brain to amuse ourselvs. Existentialism is particularly important in In nomine when your dealing with such eldritch concepts as the Ethereal marches? Who dreamed the Earth? Is it a part of the marches like the Heaven and Hell used to be? Cut off by a mean old Yawhew? >When I can no longer see my computer, I have faith in its power to stay >where it was. I believe very strongly that it's still there. I can't see >it, hear it, or feel it, but my faith keeps it there in my mind. If it were >not there, I'd be very surprised. >Thus is the nature of faith. Perhaps. I disagree on some semantics but thats' what it is. Your arguement stands. >That's really kind of an irrelevant argument, although YMMV. We're talking about a guy who nearly became the Angel of Fanatacism and offended every follower of the Prophet who may pick up this game. I doubt irrelevant really amtters. >Wouldn't you call that faith in Jesus's abilities? Yes but by this argument would Peter, Mary, and the 50,000 who saw Jesus ascend into Heaven actually have Faith? I mean accepting the Bible as true and the Koran as true....just for a momment assume they both can be despite human error. Peter, Paul, Mary the Virgin Mother of God, Judas, Muhammed, Zoraster, and Jesus himself could have no faith because they have direct evidence god exists. The same can be said for Michael, Gabriel, Yves, and Lucifer. Muhammed Visited Heaven, Moses met the Bush. This is damn convincing evidence. I say trust because they still could have doubted their senses "You smell of Gravy more than the Grave" I quote ebenezzer Scrooge and denied God's place for them. >Um... did you get the reference I made? Which one? I have a tendancy to rant? You notice. >The Bible says it's true! >Sorry. COOL! Then it must be correct! Unfortunately there's a firm fundementalist streak here in Kentucky I feel I've been called to combat. Oh well. >I could just as easily say that Zeus and the Muses are dancing a chorus line >on my spleen, but it wouldn't make them exist any more strongly for anyone >but me. Of course in the marches it is true... >This is true. Khalid's Word is, in shorthand, Faith. In longhand, it's >Belief Without Evidence. Okay. I stand corrected. Now I just think he's going about stuff the heavy wrong way. >cf. the GMG. Novalis is the Archangel of Flowering Plantlife, IIRC.' Look at that.... >You could have the population of the planet so associate the Earth with >Pokemon trading cards that /every time/ people thought of Pokemon trading >cards (except in extreme circumstances), they thought of the Earth. At that >point, you'd still be the Angel of Pokemon trading cards, but you'd probably >be an Archangel, and you'd represent the Earth itself. When the Seraphim Council changed you from trading cards I assume. >Or "the Earth". Which is kind of silly. YMMV. Yves felt he needed to be more dramatic after underestimating the appeal of the Pocket monsters religeon. >Of course. Unless I'm the Devil's advocate word. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:41:35 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Khalid and Faith >Well, no. In Canon, the Bible is a book. Yes and Yves has long boring descriptions of books. See notation above and below. Yves: "NO IT'S NOT *JUST* A BOOK!....IT'S A GATEWAY TO ANOTHER WORLD!" Eli: Is it rectangular, with pages, and stuff on them? Yves: Well yes... Eli: THEN IT'S A BOOK! Yves: I take my naming seriously. Humph. >You can diverge from that if you want -- your game, your rules -- but >the core of it is that the Bible's a book. If Dominic can't explain >the yeses and nos of Jesus's divinity/prophetic nature/anything, >there's no reasonable way for the Bible to be a Canon Chronicle of >anything. Who said it's cannon? The fact remains I'm postlating that some angels believe that stuff in the Bible has some relevance to the world today...and revelence to the history of the universe. Ergo forgive my leap in logic that this book is for all that it's worth something to take note of in the In Nomine universe. The Qu'aran as well. Also the first five books of the Bible. Same with the writings of Zarathurstra... The Heretic prophecies of Blah Blah might have quite a bit of interest in them will....however I haven't seem them quoted yet. >(In part because what we see of as the Bible is pretty inconsistant >from even the first translations and collations of the original >Greek, Hebrew and other texts. In fact, Biblical textual "evolution" >is a specific scholarly study.) Yep. Ergo why I did the spiritual study defination for Yves. Sounds more dignified than "Book which has been messed with by people with small brains" (Jean's defination) >Absolutely, without problems. Yep. >Um... so, David was interfering with David's affairs? My apologies, >there's parsing difficulty here. Yep. Like I said it's a pop theory of mine David *was* David but we know this simply is not true. However he might have been named for him and I'm not giving up my song of fruitation theory just yet....hehhe why I love stuff not detailed. >You have evidence? Jeez, stop wasting your time with the IN forum and >get on the phone to the Vatican! I'm getting the sneakiest impression that people think I'm a Malakite of Michael instead of a Elohim of Bladine. >Khalid's Word is *Faith.* If you give Mankind proof, you're not >asking them to make that leap of Faith. You're quantifying the >unquantifyable. You stop being an Angel and Minister of the Lord and >become SuperSeraph, the Truthteller , fighting a war against the >dark horde, custom made for action figures. True there is the whole aspect that humanity if presented with Big brother looking over one's shoulder will just be worse off than it is and unable to choose between Destiny and Fate (if that is god's plan-if god HAS a plan). So I guess Khalid just takes it more seriously than most. Like I said. My arguement falls apart and I stand enlightened as well as corrected. >It becomes mundane, in other words. And that denies everything that >Khalid is about. Yep. >My point stands. There is no evidence that Moses ever performed a >single miracle. There is no evidence that Jesus did any of the things >or said any of the phrases attributed to him. To quote Heinlein, in >an age and among two different peoples with tremendously good >recordkeeping (the Jews and the Romans), we can't definitively state >that Jesus even lived, much less that he preached, that he was >crucified, or that any miracles took place. We don't *know* anything. >The Evidence doesn't exist. Absolutely. All the Jewish records and Roman Records could have been forged by dem bedarned apostles. Obviously the Pilate letter to Caesar is a forger too. But we're getting off topic. I'm getting rather shocked people are even denying jesus existed in the In Nomine verse. It's starting to scare me just quite a bit. >And that's what Khalid's Word is all about. Okay I can understand that. I was earlier just thinking that it might be more appropriate that Khalid's word be about invoking communication and rapport with god's intended plan for you and trust in the almighty but that's not what he's all about (submisson is pre-ordained by him after all). >Noooooo... I'm suggesting that proof is irrelevant to faith and >perhaps even antithetical to it in Khalid's world-view. Khalid has no >room for the scientific method in his ways. That's Jean, across the >hall, and Jean's defined in Canon as having no religious views, >beyond an acceptance that religion has the potential among mortals to >be objectively good. Understood. Khalid wants mortals to have faith. Which basically in my game (which as you note is heavy into spiritual concepts from pagan, Hebrew, Christian, to Islamic to Zorastri...all the world's religeons basically I hope to touch on though years it may take) is that he wants mortals to have the glorious union with God that is unconditional (basically belief without proof...grr I hate when I'm wrong). >No, that's not *evidence.* I didn't see God make Buddy. God didn't >send me a bill for materials. Buddy simply is. Any conclusions I make >about Buddy's origins are entirely based on what I know about the >breeding habits of dogs and upon my own system of beliefs and faith >about what may or may not be a higher power in the universe. I know. I was messing with your head. Though Khalid would say God put it into motion and yves would give the history of Jordi's work. Andre would say two dogs had sex...and well so would Eli. "Chill dude. Not everything has to be awesome mind blowing mysticism." - -Eli >"Perhaps God made him that way for you" is meaningless in an argument >about evidence versus faith. It's not even a hypothesis. It's >semantically the same as saying Buddy was found under a cabbage leaf. Not necessarily if you accept God as Khalid does then he is responsible for every action there is. Thus one has to speculate God's motivations for such an act or simply accept and move on. Or maybe I'm just at the keyboard too much. >But if you mean Herod believed Jesus could perform miracles -- I >would say from the Gospels that he was *willing* to believe, but not >to accept Jesus as the Messiah and the King of the Jews without >convincing proof, and Jesus was unwilling to perform sacrements on >command as entertainments for Earthly Princes. That's pretty much the way I saw it. >And a few other places, last I knew. Hmm. >I suppose it depends, in IN terms, if Judas actually achieved his >Fate or not by betraying Christ. After all, *without* Judas turning >Christ in, Christ could not have achieved his Destiny and redeem >mankind, according to Christian Theology. If that Destiny was not >true, then Judas's act may or may not have pushed him to Fate. If it >was... The Last Temptation of Christ had Jesus have Judas do it but in my mind Kronos would have had Jesus arrested even if he couldn't bring judas down. In my mind here's how it went really... Judas: Fate: Betray Christ Destiny: Repent? Who knows. Might be "Become an Apostle" and end there. Pilate: Fate: Crucify Christ Destiny: Deny Christ's death Who knows? >It's an interesting question. Mm -- there may be an adventure seed in >this... the reincarnation of Judas... Dominic would have a bone to pick with him obviously as would Laurence. Though frankly I see the later as more curious and a little frightened than anything else....assumng we don't see the Apostles as Saints up in Heaven which is quite possible he never lets them any peace. "So did he like olives?" >I'm... *really* not parsing that sentence, or how science relates to it. Translation: Everything requires alittle Faith. >You may have all the evidence you need, and that's fine. Indeed, I >envy you the certainty of your convictions and the comfort you take >from that presence. Thanks. But it doesn't prove anything to me, per se. I don't know you have a presence, or even if you believe that. I just know what you say. (Note I am not debating your faith -- that's yours.) >And when it's translated into English for the game, we have to assume >the term that's translated is going to be as close as possible for >the purposes of the game. If Khalid were the Archangel of A Personal >Closeness To God, he would be written up that way in the books. True. >He's the Archangel of Faith. Ergo, the intent is his Celestial Word >matches as closely as possible to the English. Okay. >Marc may disagree with that. Marc will fall if he adopts it. I swear. >That last term works perfectly fine, actually. That's not what you >said in your last post. Yeah I changed my mind. I do that alot. This thread which is quite POSSIBLY the longest discussion I've ever seen is about getting various views after all. - -Charlemagne WHEW! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:17:51 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith At 11:41 PM 06/07/00 -0400, Charles Phipps wrote: >Who said it's cannon? Why are we discussing artillery? >I'm getting the sneakiest impression that people think I'm a Malakite of >Michael instead of a Elohim of Bladine. If you think you're "a Elohim," I suggest you get help for your multiple personality disorder. "Elohim" is PLURAL. *All* Choir names that end in "-im" are PLURAL. And who in the Far Marches is "Bladine"? [Don't mind me, I'm just trying to leech Essence off of Beth.] >Judas: Fate: Betray Christ Destiny: Repent? Who knows. Might be "Become an >Apostle" and end there. >Pilate: Fate: Crucify Christ Destiny: Deny Christ's death Unless Christ's death was necessary to save the souls of those who believed, in which case those could very well be reversed. If killing Christ saves billions, can it really be considered a sin? - -- "People are stupider than anybody." | hackard@io.com -- Tom Lehrer | AIM: Talthybias | ICQ: 19083015 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:41:55 -0400 From: "Aaron Medwin" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith From: Andrew Hackard > At 11:41 PM 06/07/00 -0400, Charles Phipps wrote: > >Who said it's cannon? > > Why are we discussing artillery? > > >I'm getting the sneakiest impression that people think I'm a Malakite of > >Michael instead of a Elohim of Bladine. > > If you think you're "a Elohim," I suggest you get help for your > multiple personality disorder. "Elohim" is PLURAL. *All* Choir names > that end in "-im" are PLURAL. Except Bright Lilim. :P > And who in the Far Marches is "Bladine"? > > [Don't mind me, I'm just trying to leech Essence off of Beth.] Sounds like a fun idea! > >Judas: Fate: Betray Christ Destiny: Repent? Who knows. Might be "Become an > >Apostle" and end there. > >Pilate: Fate: Crucify Christ Destiny: Deny Christ's death > > Unless Christ's death was necessary to save the souls of those who > believed, in which case those could very well be reversed. If killing > Christ saves billions, can it really be considered a sin? Depends on who you ask. I'd probably say no, myself. Mercurians might get all squeamish, but most any Elohite would say it's good in the long run. And the Elohim usually turn out to be right. - -Aaron Medwin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:39:12 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Metatron the Fall was roughly 25,000 years ago (IIRC from the GMG) - -Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11340261 "Our Fathers were the model for God. If Our Fathers failed, what does that tell you about God?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:51:14 -0500 From: Andrew Hackard Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith At 12:41 AM 07/07/00 -0400, Aaron Medwin wrote: > > *All* Choir names > > that end in "-im" are PLURAL. > >Except Bright Lilim. :P I stand corrected. - -- "People are stupider than anybody." | hackard@io.com -- Tom Lehrer | AIM: Talthybias | ICQ: 19083015 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:13:48 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Whistling in the Dark" > At 6:29 PM -0400 7/6/00, Charles Phipps wrote: > > > >Yes. I wonder if Judas dissolved or even now suffers in Hell? > > I suppose it depends, in IN terms, if Judas actually achieved his > Fate or not by betraying Christ. After all, *without* Judas turning > Christ in, Christ could not have achieved his Destiny and redeem > mankind, according to Christian Theology. If that Destiny was not > true, then Judas's act may or may not have pushed him to Fate. If it > was... > > It's an interesting question. Mm -- there may be an adventure seed in > this... the reincarnation of Judas... Judas raises any number of questions, the most important to me being "Is it possible for someone's Destiny and Fate to be so close to the exact same thing as to make no real difference?" After all, it says in the gospels that after Jesus told his disciples that one of them was fated to betray him, he then commanded Judas to go do it. What if betraying Jesus was both Destiny *and* Fate for Judas? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 02:40:18 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Andrew Hackard wrote: > If you think you're "a Elohim," I suggest you get help for your > multiple personality disorder. "Elohim" is PLURAL. *All* Choir names > that end in "-im" are PLURAL. One Bright Lilim, two Bright Lilim. Do I get my nitpicking Essence now? - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! Windows 95/98: A 32-bit patch for a 16-bit GUI shell over an 8-bit operating system written for a 4-bit processor by a 2-bit company who cannot stand 1 bit of competition. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 04:30:14 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith In a message dated 7/6/00 11:18:16 PM Central Daylight Time, hackard@io.com writes: << [Don't mind me, I'm just trying to leech Essence off of Beth.] >> Isn't Iolanthe already doing that? Reverend Brian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:36:51 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith > >True character is what you do when no one is watching. That's why Khalid >forbids his angels to compromise anyone's faith -- how can you know if a >human is TRULY faithful, and would really live a righteous life based >only on his own inner compass, if you replace faith with certainty? > *nod* My view is that Faith is when you can rely on spiritual truths as opposed to temporal truths. It's a different mode of thinking -- no less logical, but based on a completely different set of assumptions. To a religious man, pretty much everything he sees in his daily life is 'proof' that God created the universe. He has certainty. He has his proof. This is why there isn't any point trying to persuade someone religious as to the non-existence of God using physical laws or arguments. It's like trying to talk to someone who has radically different political beliefs than you do; the assumptions they begin with are SO different as to make communication impossible unless you are prepared to walk a while in their shoes and make the effort to see things their way. jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:39:05 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith >From: "Charles Phipps" >once. > >Of course > >J.R.R. Tolkien >Saint of Blandine > >is still typing away and frankly I'm glad of it. (And the tree he used to sit under at Merton College when he was writing his Silmarillion notes is a tether to Dreams (see S3) :) ) jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 07:11:41 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith - --On Thursday, July 6, 2000 11:41 PM -0400 Charles Phipps wrote: > Yes and Yves has long boring descriptions of books. See notation > above and below. > > Yves: "NO IT'S NOT *JUST* A BOOK!....IT'S A GATEWAY TO ANOTHER > WORLD!" > > Eli: Is it rectangular, with pages, and stuff on them? > > Yves: Well yes... > > Eli: THEN IT'S A BOOK! > > Yves: I take my naming seriously. Humph. > The part of Yves is played, apparently, by LeVar Burton. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:50:14 -0400 From: "EDG" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith > Except Bright Lilim. :P Bright Lilim aren't /really/ a Choir, are they? (Oh, to not have my books be halfway across a continent from me!) - -EDG they are heavenly, though! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:06:07 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith - --On Friday, July 7, 2000 7:50 AM -0400 EDG wrote: >> Except Bright Lilim. :P > > Bright Lilim aren't /really/ a Choir, are they? > Not as such. They're more of a lounge act. > > -EDG > they are heavenly, though! > There's a quote about Little Debbie that applies here, you know... Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:56:37 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith At 7:50 AM -0400 7/7/00, EDG wrote: > > Except Bright Lilim. :P > >Bright Lilim aren't /really/ a Choir, are they? > >(Oh, to not have my books be halfway across a continent from me!) Well, they're angels, with a similar set of characteristics, and consistent attunements across the Superiors.... So, yeah. I think they are a Choir. A minor Choir. A Choir so minor it makes the Menenum (however you spell that -- I think it's the first time I ever tried to) seem downright *numerous.* But a Choir nonetheless. - -- - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 06:04:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:05:47 +0100 From: "Christopher Lee" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith >>Reading over my copy of Superiors 3 (Foolish mortal! >>How could I leave it in a hot car during my tennis >>lesson! Yves warned me not to! oh well) >At least you can bloody get it already! >This is the problem with the Internet, we Brits get >to hear all about how Americans got to buy RPG >products, see films, etc before us - and >you get virtually everything cheaper!!!!!!! I'll see that and raise you the priceless luxury of being able to buy Terry Pratchett novels as soon as they're published. Not to mention catching TV shows that take _years_ to make it over the pond. :) >Any takers for the Demon of Transatlantic Delays and >Weird Price Hikes Despite the Strength of the Pound >Sterling? >Chris Lee Obviously a Habbalite* of Mammon. Hmmm ... naah, no bite to the writeup past the name. :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Overseas Trips That Never Make It Past The Airport Bookshop *It's all about the Pain, baby. All about the pain. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 06:25:02 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith >From: Maurice Lane > >I'll see that and raise you the priceless luxury of >being able to buy Terry Pratchett novels as soon as >they're published Not to mention Harry Potter. (My sister is going up to the special launch at King's Cross tomorrow -- they're decking out one of the platforms as platform 8 3/4, with steam engines et al.) jo ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:33:52 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith At 6:25 AM -0700 7/7/00, Jo Hart wrote: >>From: Maurice Lane >> >>I'll see that and raise you the priceless luxury of >>being able to buy Terry Pratchett novels as soon as >>they're published > >Not to mention Harry Potter. (My sister is going up to the special >launch at King's Cross tomorrow -- they're decking out one of the >platforms as platform 8 3/4, with steam engines et al.) Y'know, I've had no trouble with Amazon.co.uk... (Why do I feel like I just admitted something horrible...) - -- - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:30:31 +0100 From: "Laurent" Subject: IN> In Nomine bloopers I was just reading through the INC, and I saw the "Game Quotes" link in the "Fan Contributions" menu. It links to 2 short pages presenting a few funny quotes, and it reminded me of the official ShadowRun archive: it contains a section presenting the funniest episodes of many campaigns. Not only quotes, but also silly situations, players mistakes, misunderstandings, unlucky rolls, etc. I went through the 20 or so very long pages of short stories, laughing so much I could barely breath anymore, and when I finished the last story, I was dying for more. I guess I'm not the only person entertained by that kind of stuff, so I'm wondering: is there anything like this somewhere on the INC or on somebody's private web site? A place where GM's and players could submit their favorite short stories. If there's not, would anybody be interested in setting it up? I definitely have to build up a site of my own... Laurent. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 10:32:53 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith Andrew Hackard wrote: > And who in the Far Marches is "Bladine"? Archangel of tedium, monotony, and general blah-ness. Its best known Saint is St. Anesthesius, patron saint of boring sermons. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:47:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Guy Royse Subject: Re: IN> Khalid and Faith - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Andrew Hackard wrote: > > And who in the Far Marches is "Bladine"? > > Archangel of tedium, monotony, and general blah-ness. > Its best known Saint is St. Anesthesius, patron saint > of boring sermons. And after all, the tedium is the message. Guy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 14:27:24 PDT From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> How much will Novalis put up with? I must disagree with the person who believes that Novalis will put up with *anything.* The rule book says no such thing. It says (paraphrasing from memory) that she will always attempt to reach a demon by kindness first, *and* that she is no pushover and will "show her thorns" if compelled. It also says somewhere else (in *Heaven and Hell, I think, but I am not among those who bring *In Nomine* books to work) that she is neither stupid nor gullible, which is the way I see her (and her Servitors) portrayed in many places, including here on occasion. True, I think she is absolutely against killing *humans,* because right up to the time they die there's a chance they might redeem. And most humans *can't* cause the amount of trouble one really dedicated demon can. But sometimes she realizes that the amount of trouble, danger, and hurt that a demon is causing outweighs the (miniscule) chance that someday he will redeem. I think six times since the Fall is about right for someone like Novalis realizing, reluctantly, that a demon has gone so far that he has used up all the slack she can give him. As for how this information mysteriously reaches the Demon Princes, well, it could be *lots* of ways. The Dominic/Asmodeus line is an obvious route, but it could be spies, truces like the one in Austin, Lilim contacts ... What I'd like to know is how the word gets out that a demon is on the Eternal Sword list. The demon himself might not know, and if he did, he would certainly not share that piece of information around ... or he would find himself hung out to dry with a sign on him saying "Happy Birthday Laurence" pinned to his back; demons are not much for solidarity under circumstances like that. And I can't see the Order being so dishonorable as to communicate with demons about someone they're hunting.Especially since so many of them are Malakim. Janet Anderson ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 16:03:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Just picked up S3 ... ... and it is Most Nifty. First playtest discussion I ever participated in, and it was a lot of fun. Even if I didn't get playtest credit. :) And, I must say, the picture heading of Yves absolutely ROCKED. The argyle socks were freaking _inspired_. Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Finally, More Attunements to Play With* *I delete my copied files when a playtest ends. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 19:18:54 -0400 From: "EDG" Subject: IN> I certainly hope this isn't an exception. When I arrived at my gaming store yesterday, the book shipment had just arrived. Two copies of Superiors 3, 5 copies of GURPS: In Nomine. They were being placed on the shelves as I walked in the door. By the time I walked out, ten minutes later, a copy of each had been sold - to separate people. When I went back today, there were no remaining copies of Superiors 3, and one remaining copy of G:IN. (As far as the physical book goes, I have yet to see anything but the cover of S3, though I must admit that Gabriel looks good in glossy.) In addition, there were four back-orders for S3. I don't /know/ any In Nomine gamers in the area besides myself. This is creepy. - -EDG doo doo doo doo... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 00:27:20 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: Re: IN> Concerning Novalis >I can groove to that, actually. As an embodiment of >the forces of joy, peace and forgiveness, the above >fits her perfectly (and has a felicity of style, to >boot). :) > >But I've been thinking of how her essential angelic >nature, coupled with her Word, might give her a more >... primal ... nature at times. After all, she is a >Cherub, and as such, can be counted on to be devoted >to her Word and what it represents in a way that >humans can only dimly see. And her Word, while >superficially associated with cultivation and order, >is essentially _wild_. Novalis has very hidden depths >to her, and very possibly nobody really wants to >disturb them. And are love and understanding necessarily controlled, deliberate, cultivated things? According to some writers, such as CS Lewis, or some Christian mystics, raw charity is a very frightening, dangerous thing . . . > > >>Novalis will always reach out to them, and give them >>that thousandth chance, however many times she has >>been hurt, waiting for the time when they will >>honestly say, "I was wrong, and I am sorry," and turn >>to the light. > >Which is how I see her, as well. I just wonder about >the essential motivation for that attitude. I suspect >that there's a strong element of inhuman patience, >well mixed with the nigh-infinite capacity for love >and forgiveness. Definitely. Not nigh-infinite -- infinite. And utterly inhuman patience. Archangels are not human. This might be of relevance: The faces surprised him very much. Nothing less like the "angel" of popular art could well be imagined. The rich variety, the hint of undeveloped possibilities, which make the interest of human faces, were entirely absent. One single, changeless expression -- so clear that it hurt and dazzled him -- was stamped on each and there was nothing else there at all. In that sense their faces were as "primitive", as unnatural, if you like, as those of archaic statues from Aegina. What this one thing was he could not be certain. He concluded in the end that it was charity. But it was terrifyingly different from the expression of human charity, which we always see either blossoming out of, or hastening to descend into, natural affection. Here there was no affection at all: no least lingering memory of it even at ten million years' distance, no germ from which it could spring in any future, however remote. Pure, spiritual, intellectual love shot from their faces like barbed lightning. It was so unlike the love we experience that its expression could easily be mistaken for ferocity. (_Voyage to Venus_ or _Perelandra_, CS Lewis) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1703 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.