From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jul 18 21:14:54 2000 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02069 for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:14:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id VAA29872 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:13:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:13:52 -0500 Message-Id: <200007190213.VAA29872@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1718 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 18 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1718 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: Legion & Haagenti IN> Interventions. Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store Re: IN> Questions about fate (or Fate) Re: IN> Interventions. IN> Remanants and Words and Ressurection IN> Kronos/Tethers/Hell IN> Conspiracy Theory IN> Angelic stats (was Michael beating Lucifer) Re: IN> Questions about fate (or Fate) Re: IN> Interventions. Re: IN> Interventions. Re:IN> Re: Legion & Haagenti IN> Michael's Kyriotates. Re: IN> Re: Legion & Haagenti Re: IN> Michael's Kyriotates. Grigori stuff (was Re: Deeply Heretical (was Re: IN> More Grigori speculations)) IN> Words in Celestial vs Demonic IN> More on Kyriotates of Michael. Re: IN> Michael's Kyriotates. Re: IN> More on Kyriotates of Michael. IN> Outcast Kyriotates of Michael. Re: Grigori stuff (was Re: Deeply Heretical (was Re: IN> More Grigori speculations)) Re: IN> GURPS-IN and material for IN IN> A fun little thought, with hairy implications. Re: IN> Re: Legion & Haagenti Re:IN> A fun little thought, with hairy implications. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:34:24 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: Legion & Haagenti At 12:27 -0400 7/18/00, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >Are Words in Demonic also Words in Celestial? Or would your War Servitor of the Demon of Havoc become the Angel of What Translates Into 'Havoc' In Helltongue? I think they're from the same namespace; otherwise Gabriel wouldn't have as much trouble, I suspect. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:45:39 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: IN> Interventions. If you're a renegade, is a 666 still a positive intervention for you? Conversely, do outcasts benefit from a 111? If a demon is battling another demon and rolls a 666, is that good or bad? If a bad cop shoots at a renegade demon and rolls a 111, is that good or bad for the cop? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:48:51 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> News from the Gaming Store At 17:45 +0100 7/18/00, Christopher Lee wrote: >Can I suggest that if the material is really minor, and a side detail, could it go direct onto the website along with any other material that isn't in the original book. Some of that should already be there -- I believe the attunement changes were supposed to be put up as errata. Some of the other things aren't, though. > Should be a few minutes job if you know exactly what the differences are (Walter and Elizabeth) and have an electronic copy. Well, I'm not sure we can pinpoint everything everyone would consider a "difference" -- there are a bunch of things driven by GURPS mechanics that I wouldn't classify as likely IN canon. I can only think of a couple minor things, offhand, that I would consider "new/changed canon", on top of the Gabriel & Saminga attunement changes and the Grigori resonance. And our electronic copy is pre-final edit. That's not really an issue, anyway, since, except for the Grigori stuff and the attunement changes, it could be more easily presented by writing it anew. >It could go in with the IN materials on the SJG site and being that is so minor and just a side detail it won't adversely affect sales of GIN... I don't think that sales effect would be an issue. Getting the resources to do it might be. It's a reasonable idea, though I'm not sure where I'd stick it so that people could find it. The only problem I have with it is that it's bad precedent to have to summarize new canon from a book in the line. It's not *too* different from the case of "book X introduces bit of canon Y; some people don't want to buy book X just to get Y, so they ask for Y to be posted". Though I think this has been done in couple cases (the Geas mechanics for FotM were posted as an "excerpt" for that book). Possibly the Grigori section of GURPS IN can be posted as an excerpt that way. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:13:16 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Questions about fate (or Fate) At 3:22 PM -0400 7/18/00, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 23:27 +1200 7/18/00, Keith Bolland wrote: >> (...does this mean the Grigori sat around on their >>appendages until after the Fall? Head hurts...) > >I believe canon says the Grigori were created post-Fall. (Both like >and unlike the Malakim, who were first converted at the time of the Fall.) Grigori were created post-Fall. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:20:23 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Interventions. At 1:45 PM -0600 7/18/00, ben wrote: >If you're a renegade, is a 666 still a positive intervention for you? Unless you're cruising for redemption; a 666 will always be what benefits Hell most. (It could both benefit and hamper you! For instance, when telling the nosy Ofanite of Revelation that she _was_ a human (i.e., not a Renegade), the Lilim got a 666 on her Lying roll. Ever see a 9-Force human? No resonance, needing food... Not knowing what was going on...) >Conversely, do outcasts benefit from a 111? Ditto, except that an Outcast deliberately cruising for a Fall won't be so happy. The 111 will aid Heaven's cause. >If a demon is battling another demon and rolls a 666, is that good or bad? Probably good for the demon who rolled it! But the GM should ponder _why_ Lucifer smiled on that demon and not the other one... >If a bad cop shoots at a renegade demon and rolls a 111, is that good or bad >for the cop? Depends on who's serving the side of Heaven best, or what action would be taken. Maybe the bullet hits something that shatters and sends shards into _both_ of them. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:01:43 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Remanants and Words and Ressurection This brings up a very good point about demonic and angelic redemption when remanents are involved. IMC (thank you Beth) recently my demon slayer Malakim of War player Toah slew an old Calabim rival with the Heart Seeker (a artifact Baal is VERY anxious to get back) that destroyed his Celestial forces and left him a souless vessel. My seraph of flowers Isaiah then persuaded Toah to spare the remanant from being tossed off a cliff (I love dramatic fights) in order that he might seek redemption (he's a great believer in life after soul death). IMHO this situation called that: A:) The Calabim part of his soul was utterly annhilated: He is in no way shape or form a demon which is probably a good thing as Saminga would not be happy with him...especially when he found out his deal with Baal. B:) When he dies (be it auto-accident or the like) the basic summation of the idea is that he will either cease to exist utterly or go where his destiny or fate may lead him (Yves after all said everyone had a destiny and fate) in this situation. In the latter case it would mean that a remanant who has forces grafted onto him will become whatever the angel/demon that creates him makes him but it has to be the type matching his soul. Meaning that Raphael the Archangel will not become a good demon and will not survive the process....I would even venture to say instead of becomming her old choir, if she developed a tendancy for wandering she'd end up a Olfalim instead of a Elohite. However since remanents keep their words I'd venture to say that if she became an Olfalim (or seraph or elohim) she'd immediately regain her benifit from the Essence and after a few hundred years would probably be able to resume her archangel status presuming she didn't waste her power or engauge in any more legion fights. If she became evil, vile, etc in the time she would lose her word once she became a demon...though Lucifer would probably give her Ignorance as a word (for sacraficing herself against legion) - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:16:29 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Kronos/Tethers/Hell >In the case of purely natural formations, this would be true. However, the >Rubicon would not be a Tether to Fate because of anything concerning its >natural presence. It would be a Tether to Fate solely because of a decision >made by an individual long before Kronos was in a position to claim the >tether. > >This argument would imply that the cathedral in Aachen might become a tether >tomorrow because Charlemagne was coronated there. I'm not buying this. In my opinion Kronos always existed personally as long as Hell did. In many ways I believe Kronos *IS* Hell as much as Yves is Heaven. However for those who believes for whatever reason (Yves not yet forcing the evil from his soul, Lucifer not tapping Fate as a word yet, etc) that Fate did not exist as long as evil has... Then I offer some explanations... 1:) Some events resonate so long that they can be claimed: The obvious one though strange it may sound. 2:) The Tether was claimed earlier by Hell.....: This means Malphus, Baal, Asmodeus or...here's one Lucifer claimed it (Indeed Lucifer might have claimed a number of personal tethers then handed them over to his proxy...he might still have some). 3:) Some event other than the intial caused it: If a young boy goes into the ruins of a death camp in Germany or visits one of Pol Pot's killing fields and decides "This is what I'm going to do with my life" then these things will create a tether to Fate surely as the initial events to death that may not have. For instance if Charlemagne's crowning (Charlemagne being a mass murderer despite his bringing great order) inspired a elderly veteran with no focus in his life to take up the Christian sword and revive knightly ideals then he might go for the Sword tether forming or even Destiny Why Tethers are so maddening. 4:) Tethers form to words that are even unclaimed: Corruption (Beezlebub) might have dozens of tethers but when he, Legion, and the rest were off they had to be divided up but corruption tethers might still be forming. 5:) Superiors can spend essence to create tethers on areas that are infamous...it just costs more. Theoretically this would mean if Michael wanted Disneyworld to be a tether to war instead of Marc then during construction he'd spend enough essence to make it... - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:41:32 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Conspiracy Theory I fear that as official MIB for Dominic (Malakim in Black)...I have to prove that your little theory holds no wait Mr.....Casca. >Let us examine the facts of the matter. Yes....shall we. >1) The Grigori are the only choir of angels capable of unassisted, unartifical reproduction. Yes they are.....unless they use the Song of Fruitation....but in all likelihood they do do it unassisted....just a note there....regarding the Nephilim and all. >2) No one can find them, which suggests Roles in excess of 6, or some inherent ability to avoid generating Disturbance. Since many humans go their entire lives without killing someone, summoning superiors, and the like. It's very possible...plus when one lives on earth longer than divisions...one is able to fake life very well. Look at Highlander. >3) The entire choir was Cast Out, instead of being destroyed. This, frankly, is a STUPID thing to do, especially so soon after the Fall. I mean, what was the Council thinking? Wouldn't it have been tactically sounder, not to mention kinder (at least to Dominic's way of thinking) to soul-kill them all instead? The last thing Heaven needs is to lose an -entire- Choir to Hell. This is my biggest conclusion that had to be going through Michael and Dominic's heads. "You want us to *kill* an entire choir of angels just for being slothful when we only banished our brothers?". The Grigori I believe if they could prove themselves "clean" of infernal taint, ready to do their job, and the same no doubt would have been accepted back into Heaven. Any Grigori. Just none did. Also killing an entire choir of angels might be rather taxing on Heaven's already stretched resources. These three factors likely led to them being spared. Dominic as always simply wants everyone to get along and do god's will....they weren't in danger of falling from what he saw, so much as losing Heaven ala Eli. Outcast before death after all in my mind, though it might be he only developed the philosophy before he saw the Grigori results. >Conclusion: >The Grigori are Humans. Or, to be more precise, Humans are Fallen Grigori. You'll never prove anything. >Point: It is generally accepted (Catholic) church dogma that Humans were closer to the Divine (and therefore perfection) before Original Sin. That only holds if you believe all of humanity comes before the Eden Experiment....which the details of are safely locked away in Yves's vault. >Point: After the whole deplorable Apple Incident, Humanity was Cast Out(!) of Paradise. Agent Adam and Agent Eve to be precise. >Point: Humans were commanded to "Be fruitful and multiply," which complements the Grigori reproductive ability quite nicely. I always imagined Michael said that when he runs out of soldiers. >Point: Humanity frequently (though not in any great numbers) produces 6+ Force Humans. Demons fledge at 7 Forces... Obviously Demons are closer to humanity due to their decadence...and humanity is in danger of overtaking them in power...obviously as Baal says they must be destroyed. >Point: Lilith never ate the Apple, and she has a Word. And can create Lilim. Are you sure she didn't grab some fruit for the road? >Point: More is known about the Fall (22,000 BC) than is known about the Grigori Outcasting (11,600 BC). Then again we have more witnesses on the demonic side. >Conclusion: It's all a coverup. Angels are forbidden to speak of the Grigori because A) a Seraph might accidentally uncover the Truth, and B) you can't lie in Angelic. DANG IT YOU FIGURED IT OUT! Agent Uriel....get me the comfy chair. >Ever wonder where Cain and Abel and Seth got their wives? Grigori. They're the missing link between hominid and Homo Sapiens. (Creationism and Evolutionism are BOTH right!) This I could believe though technically I'm inclined to believe that Abel got a pure human wife (the little known daughter of Eve Tina) and thus is the pure bloodline. >Paranoid notion: Did the G.O. happen by accident? Or was it a -controlled experiment- by God (or Yves) to accurately measure the precise nature of Falling? Personally I think it was mainly a lesson that you can't get too close to humanity or they'll lay the smack down. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:51:47 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Angelic stats (was Michael beating Lucifer) >If Michael could beat Lucifer why didn't he just destroy him? I'm sure a >lot of angels and demons ask this question. Lucifer is capable of doing >things Michael can't, the only apparent difference after his defeat is that >he Fell. Does becoming a Balseraph mean such an increase in power? >I think that the issue is actually confused. Actually in retrospect I don't think that Michael, Lucifer, and the rest of the Superiors are completely off the charts in their statistics (yes they have unlimited essence nearly and don't do as much as the rest of the Angels save learn...but not invincible). I think it would be actually cool in fact to do up the statistics of the Celestial Archangels such as 6,6,6 for the average low level superior (Minor), 9,9,9 for the higher Superiors like Michael, and 13, 13, 13 for Lucifer himself. Amazingly high but not completely invincible here. Kinda more like Prophecy combat (if you hit an angel with a Celestial rocket launcher-he's going to go down...even if it's Gabriel-assuming you hit him-still no small job there). Indeed you can explain away a number of abilities simply by saying they have unique attunements (the ability of Superiors to appear in numerous ways is simply the adaption of the Kyriorite resonance and some handy vesselling). >Michael didn't *beat* >Lucifer, he was fighting him when Lucifer fell from Heaven. I don't think >that Michael actually did anything more than battle Lucifer, and then God >decided that he was going to make the part of Heaven underneith Lucifer >giveway. Perhaps...however it was Michael who threw him down the big hole in my opinion. Also note that Lucifer was the Second Born angel back then with a nice word but not really anything to write home about until it became the source of all Evil (ironically Light also covers darkness because Lucifer denies it to places). Nice theory though - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:12:52 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Questions about fate (or Fate) > > Keith Bollard wrote: [snip] > > >[*] I wish there was an easy word to describe the pair of them. > > "Auguries"? I have used Wyrd to describe someone's intended future. Don't know if that helps, but it is my two cents worth. Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:05:11 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Interventions. At 13:45 -0600 7/18/00, ben wrote: >If you're a renegade, is a 666 still a positive intervention for you? I believe in general, yes. I think there's something in the main book (or somewhere) on that, to the effect that this might be your Prince (or another one) offering to take you back, or some other mark of Lucifer's favor. (Or maybe I'm remembering the stuff on Interventions in dissonance rolls, but I think the principle is similar.) >Conversely, do outcasts benefit from a 111? I would say yes. >If a demon is battling another demon and rolls a 666, is that good or bad? I would generally rule that it's favorable for the demon who rolled it, and tough luck for the other one. Hell is like that.... >If a bad cop shoots at a renegade demon and rolls a 111, is that good or bad >for the cop? Probably bad for both -- say, the demon dies, and the cop winds up suspended (or fired) for a bad shooting. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:14:21 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Interventions. Walter Milliken wrote: > > At 13:45 -0600 7/18/00, ben wrote: > >If you're a renegade, is a 666 still a positive intervention for you? Yup. > >Conversely, do outcasts benefit from a 111? > > I would say yes. Yup. > >If a demon is battling another demon and rolls a 666, is that good or bad? > > I would generally rule that it's favorable for the demon who rolled it, > and tough luck for the other one. Hell is like that.... What he said. > > >If a bad cop shoots at a renegade demon and rolls a 111, is that good or bad > >for the cop? > > Probably bad for both -- say, the demon dies, and the cop winds up suspended > (or fired) for a bad shooting. Unless a human is technically allied with Hell (i.e. a Soldier), I believe 111 is still a good intervention for him. I'm pretty sure this was convered in the CPG (which is not anywhere near me at this time). Beth? - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 2000 23:27:30 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re:IN> Re: Legion & Haagenti On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:47:47 EDT Daedalus3D@aol.com wrote: [snip] >How about a 2 Superiors books focusing on the deceased Superiors on both >sides? > >They could look like this: >AA: Raphael, Urial, Metatron, Oannes >DP: Mariel, Meserach, Gebbeleth, Vephar, Makatiel, Legion, Genubath, Beelzebub > >Okay, so you'd probably have to do two books on the dead DP's, but I wouldn't >complain :) i like the idea of Deceased or Missing Superior books, and i wouldn't complain about the Princes getting two books since there are more dead ones than there are dead Archangels ;) >Okay, enough from me. What do you guys think of this? i hope your idea drums up enough interest to become a published reality, Daedalus. you already have my vote! =) -=|horsefly|=- "It was a different time: a time of blood and guns and killings.... It was a time when killers needed saints, for so much of God's good work was being done." --SAINT OF KILLERS #4, Garth Ennis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:33:49 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: IN> Michael's Kyriotates. How many forces does a Kyriotate of Michael have to commit to their vessel? Is it the vessel level? Ben ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 2000 23:34:33 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Legion & Haagenti On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:14:48 -0400 Whistling in the Dark wrote in response to Daedalus3D@aol.com: [snippity-snip] >Right? Right? Anyone? Anyone? if it were to be done in one volume, i agree that Liber Temporum has a nice ring to it, and i love the idea of having all the former Superiors in chronological order of destruction/disappearance, but i'd rather have six to ten pages devoted to the Superiors themselves rather than the two-page format you propose, Eric :) either way (AAs and DP 2-volume or single historical--i like someone else's proposal of Superiors -1, -2, and -3), as long as the ones that've gone get their day on paper ;) -=|horsefly|=- Happiness is a laser designator and a friend in the artillery battalion. --Clayton A. Oliver ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:48:00 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Kyriotates. ben wrote: > > How many forces does a Kyriotate of Michael have to commit to their vessel? Human vessels 'cost' 5 forces. A Kyrio of Michael gets reallllly interesting once they get 10 forces and can possess a human as well as their own vessel. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:51:29 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Grigori stuff (was Re: Deeply Heretical (was Re: IN> More Grigori speculations)) Walter Milliken wrote: > Note too, that most Grigori apparently didn't actually Fall. Rather, they > were really just disobeying policy. (And it may be that the implications > of this -- that disobeying God's (or the Council's) policies *isn't* > dissonant -- is something the Seraphim Council really didn't want people > thinking about....) Was God personally involved in outcasting the Grigori? I seem to recall the it was the Council's deal. Perhaps the Grigori never actually violated any of God's commands. I'd say it's entirely possible that fornication, low grade corruption and so forth aren't in violation of God's will for Angels, really (the ten commandments are pretty much not applicable in several places, and therefore IMHO can be ignored, and the stuff that many angels get up to in the modern day ). Certainly the fact that not many Grigori fell would indicate that this is the case. It's the Seraphim Council which interpreted the Word of God and decided that the Grigori deserved to be cast out. After all, if God hated them, wouldn't they be demons? One could even take this a step farther. What exactly were the Grigori, as a Choir rather than individually, guilty of? Nothing most humans haven't done, I'd guess. My image of the Grigori is a group of amiable human-types, not Mercurian supernaturally likeable or Seraph pure, but good neighbours and the sort of people that make you feel safer knowing that they live in the area, and the sort of people neighbourhood kids want to be like when they grow up. This is what the Grigori were meant to be, not watchers and protectors of humanity (thats for Cherubim and Malakim), but examples. Of course, calling their Choir "the Examples" sounds silly, so "the Watchers" has become more popular. Or perhaps "the Watchers" is a name for the Grigori thought up by other angels who didn't understand why they (the Grigs, that is) were really down on Earth. The Casting Out, then, wouldn't actually be a casting out of any sort. The Seraphim Council might think that the Grigori were being punished, but in reality they're just being installed where they're supposed to be. The whole expulsion thing could even be a feint in the war (instigated by the Council, Yves or even God) planting the Grigori where they are unlikely to be disturbed by demons and can get on with the business of guiding humanity without haveing to worry about the whole war business. Perhaps, to take this another step, the whole war effort on Heaven's part is merely a diversionary tactic to keep Hell off the Grigoris' backs while they do their thing. A culimnation to the War could be Hell devoting all it's efforts to the assault on Heaven, smashing through the Pearly gates, only to turn about and find that Earth has been lost completely to them in the mean time, where the Grigori, now indistinguishable from normal humans (or possibly by Armageddon there won't be a human alive without Grigori blood, if we want to get back to Casca's theory) have quietly moved in and... Done something. Not sure exactly what. I like this though, so maybe I'll write something up and send it into the INC or whatever. Apologies if this is all well trodden ground. Cheers, -Ryan "Don't you know, 'bout a trillion years ago, A star sneezed now they're paging you in reception. Don't you know, Jack and Jillian years ago, A dinosaur dropped the pail when it saw our reflection." -XTC, "We're All Light" ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 2000 23:50:50 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: IN> Words in Celestial vs Demonic On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:27:39 -0400 Whistling in the Dark wrote: [snip] >Are Words in Demonic also Words in Celestial? Or would your War >Servitor of the Demon of Havoc become the Angel of What Translates >Into 'Havoc' In Helltongue? since Words don't seem to be disputed as less real if they're given in Hell (see the Word-conflict of Gabriel and Beliel), i'd assume Helltongue is rather flexible in how close to "true" something can be. or maybe Lucifer can still speak Celestial for the purposes of granting Words, but in the granting, the Word is tainted by his Balserephic nature, so the Hoarde can pronounce this Word in Helltongue without any translation, and angels can speak the Word in Celestial (though most would probably like to wash their mouthes out afterwards or avoid the issue entirely). -=|horsefly|=- God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:58:41 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: IN> More on Kyriotates of Michael. Can a Kyriotate of Michael go celestial and have their vessel vanish the same way other celestials do? If so, can they then possess some other people and have their normal vessel as a reserve? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:03:24 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> Michael's Kyriotates. ben wrote: > > How many forces does a Kyriotate of Michael have to commit to their vessel? > > Is it the vessel level? Number of Forces the form would have, IIRC. That is to say, 5 for a human vessel. Cheers, Ryan "I'll ride the turning world Into another night..." -Sting, Lithium Sunset ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:10:03 -0400 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> More on Kyriotates of Michael. ben wrote: > > Can a Kyriotate of Michael go celestial and have their vessel vanish the > same way other celestials do? If so, can they then possess some other > people and have their normal vessel as a reserve? Yes. But remember that the Forces invested in the vessel are still 'tied up' and not available for possessing other beings. (I think this in the FAQ...) - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:24:06 -0600 From: "ben" Subject: IN> Outcast Kyriotates of Michael. :-) How can an Outcast Kyriotate of Michael get his vessel back if he's lost it? If he does lose it, does he basically become a normal Kyriotate? It talks about generating vessels and creating vessels in the attunement description. Does this mean the Kyriotate could -- theoretically -- start without a vessel, and buy one when he gets 3 character points? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:25:30 -0400 From: "A.Hamilton" Subject: Re: Grigori stuff (was Re: Deeply Heretical (was Re: IN> More Grigori speculations)) > One could even take this a step farther. What exactly were the Grigori, > as a Choir rather than individually, guilty of? Nothing most humans > haven't done, I'd guess. My image of the Grigori is a group of amiable > human-types, not Mercurian supernaturally likeable or Seraph pure, but > good neighbours and the sort of people that make you feel safer knowing > that they live in the area, and the sort of people neighbourhood kids > want to be like when they grow up. This is what the Grigori were meant > to be, not watchers and protectors of humanity (thats for Cherubim and > Malakim), but examples. So the Grigs were meant to be Wilson from "Tool Time?" :) I am, A.Hamilton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:05:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Dykes Subject: Re: IN> GURPS-IN and material for IN - --- Walter Milliken wrote: > >However, I have been playing both games for years > and I personally think GURPS cannot handle high > power levels. > > As a general rule, I agree with you. And we > actually made some compromises > in GURPS IN celestials to fit them in under the > "ceiling". From what > I've seen so far, this seems to have worked well > enough. It's hard to know > until someone's run a campaign for a year or so -- > not something that can > be playtested, just guessed at. I also agree... The suggestion I made that's since been lost in the archives was that GURPS:IN should be used for humanocentric campaigns, with just token celestial rules/conversions, and IN should be used celestial oriented campaigns with just token rules for human players...in essence, the CPG should've been GURPS:IN, but that would have been absolutely unworkable from a marketing perspective. Doesn't stop me or you from using it that way, though... > I suppose someday someone may convert some of the > additional expanded > Superior attunements, Songs, and artifacts into > GURPS. But I suspect that > would be more likely to be a Pyramid article or web > page than a book. > > >and hoping that GURPS-In will not be treated as > part of the line > > It *is* part of the line, as far as consistency > goes. And also for other > reasons -- the supplements for GURPS IN *are* the In > Nomine line. It's > best to think of GURPS IN as a 1.5th edition of the > main IN book, with a > different rules base. It differs from the main IN > book in those ways > a 2nd edition IN main book probably would. I was about to say such, and I think as much might've been said on the list lo these many years back...think of GURPS:IN not so much as GURPS:Traveller, which is the first of a line as much as the prototype of IN 2ed. > And frankly, I wouldn't want you to. There's some > chance that this > particular bit of canon may be released "officially" > to the IN community > somehow. There's really not much more than a few > sentences there. > The stuff I'd *really* like to see, like what the > Grigori and their Children > are doing these days, is still missing, and awaiting > a future IN supplement, > hopefully. Perhaps as a Pyramid article? In fact, unless it's the IN Compendium, I don't know that there's enough Grigori stuff to fill out a Liber Vigila. Maybe a Liber Arcana as a catchall kind of thing? But that has the problem of being a mixed bag supplement, and all the marketing hassle that entails... > And the Superiors books basically came out of player > demand -- there > weren't *any* plans originally to do such things. Yes, IN gamers prefer tools, not stories, seeds, not adventures. 8-) I did purchase the Liber Servitorum, but not YAH, as I really don't need places, but characters are always welcome. The supplement I'd like to see is a Liber Cartus(?), an expansion of the Heaven and Hell, and Marches guides in the rev cycle, although I bet a lot of the Marches stuff will wind up in the EPG. Overall, I'm pleased with GURPS:IN. It looks just like IN, and those cool conversion rules. But You lose points for not including my favorite crossover, IN:Lensman. 8-) bkd __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:10:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> A fun little thought, with hairy implications. It's entirely possible that all of you dread the days when I get stuck for an hour or so on my commute home on the train. I come up with the weird thoughts then. Here's today's. We know (well, not with a confidence level of above 95%, but that's good enough for this postulate) that Malakim cannot Fall. But can they Jump? Now, the automatic answer is, "Of course not." Several arguments why, of course: because Jumping and Falling are essentially the same thing, or because Malakim cannot conceive of being anything else besides Malakim, or because they're really demons anyway and you can't Fall (or Jump) off the floor, or any of the other reasons postulated over the years by busy gamers. However, whatever the actual reason, a Malakite who cannot Jump is a Malakite who is forbidden to make a fundamental choice about themselves. _The_ fundamental choice. They are locked into the service of Heaven, and cannot pick their side. The lowest creature in the three planes has more freedom than they. In other words, they lack what humans would call free will. It matters not whether they can choose what to wear, who to like or dislike, or even whether to be an active or passive participant in the War. They are denied their freedom and individuality on the most fundamental level, and Lucifer's Rebellion looks better and better the more you think about it. In fact, the creation of the Malakim proved Lucifer's point precisely: they are shining examples of what God intended His angels to be all along. Slaves. Unless, of course, you say that they can Jump. It's absolutely _essential_ that they be allowed to do so, if you want to run Bright campaigns. See? I told you it was weird. :) Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Feel Free To Pick Apart The Logic, If You Like __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:25:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Re: Legion & Haagenti Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:14:48 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: Legion & Haagenti >Call it the Liber Temporum, and we're in business. >Right? Right? Anyone? Anyone? >Sigh. >--- Eric Alfred Burns - It's a nifty idea, Eric. Really. However, I'm currently writhing in semi-agony with the thought that way too many _active_ Superiors don't have their writeups yet. Nothing personal, but if it's a choice between seeing Uriel, Raphael and Legion first, and seeing Novalis, Marc and Jean, I'll be forced to go with the latter*... Morgan (FAW) Kyriotate of Destiny Petitioner for the Word of Is It My Imagination, Or Has Every Major Demon Prince _Already_ Has An Expanded Writeup Published Or In Production? *Of course, in an ideal world I'd have to make that choice while standing in front of the IN rack at my FLGS. :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 2000 02:11:02 -0000 From: "-=|horsefly|=-" Subject: Re:IN> A fun little thought, with hairy implications. On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Maurice Lane wrote: >It's entirely possible that all of you dread the days >when I get stuck for an hour or so on my commute home >on the train. I come up with the weird thoughts then. on the contrary, if being stuck on the train is what gets you thinking this way--bearing you no personal ill will--i hope it happens frequently! :) >We know (well, not with a confidence level of above >95%, but that's good enough for this postulate) that >Malakim cannot Fall. agreed. >But can they Jump? a Malakite who has *just fledged* has sworn no Oaths, correct? if so, then Malakim technically can Jump. after the first two requisite Oaths, Jumping would be dissonant and therefore unthinkable. one presumes, if Free Will is an important factor in one's game, that Archangels *allow* a newly fledged Malakite some time to swear their Oaths, but that they're not inducted into anyone's service until they do. >Now, the automatic answer is, "Of course not." >Several arguments why, of course: because Jumping and >Falling are essentially the same thing, or because i would distinguish between Falling and Jumping by degrees. the former creeps up on an angel as selfishness that wears away at the soul; the latter is a conscious choice made with or without a lot of thought behind it but generally no Discord or Dissonance. >Malakim cannot conceive of being anything else besides >Malakim, or because they're really demons anyway and >you can't Fall (or Jump) off the floor, or any of the for those who prefer playing In Nomine backwards, sure. i don't call it an adequate explanation, though. matter of taste, but it's severely distasteful in my mind. >However, whatever the actual reason, a Malakite who >cannot Jump is a Malakite who is forbidden to make a >fundamental choice about themselves. _The_ which is why i say they can Jump until a certain point, but i'm biting my tongue here until later in your argument as to why. >fundamental choice. They are locked into the service >of Heaven, and cannot pick their side. The lowest partially correct: they *are* "locked into the service of Heaven," but they *have* "picked their side." upon the swearing of Oaths, a Malakite cements its allegiance to Heaven, solidifies its Choice, and denies any possible change in decision down the line. in this way, Malakim are the direct mirror of Lilim, who have Free Will to an equal degree and frequently squander it just as quickly by binding to Demon Princes. have you ever heard of a bound Lilim asking to be transferred to another Prince? ("Hey, Andre, it's been fun, but I really think I'd be better off with Kobal.") to get back to Malakim, yes, they have choice, even Free Will to Choose, but every single one of them have chosen Heaven rather than Hell. they still have the freedom of *whom to Serve* (the capital designating association to an Archangel). >In other words, they lack what humans would call free >will. It matters not whether they can choose what to >wear, who to like or dislike, or even whether to be an >active or passive participant in the War. They are >denied their freedom and individuality on the most >fundamental level, and Lucifer's Rebellion looks >better and better the more you think about it. > >In fact, the creation of the Malakim proved Lucifer's >point precisely: they are shining examples of what God >intended His angels to be all along. > >Slaves. these three paragraphs are probably inspired by a Servitor of Nybbas. nice job, Maurice. i don't agree with it, but it's well written. >Unless, of course, you say that they can Jump. It's >absolutely _essential_ that they be allowed to do so, >if you want to run Bright campaigns. i do, yes, but i think even in Bright campaigns this is viable material for Hellish propaganda. imagine the indignant Virtue upon hearing such ideas . >See? I told you it was weird. :) that's why i like it :) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1718 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2000 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.