From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Apr 23 17:01:10 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22260 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:01:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA10047 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:04:30 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:04:30 -0500 Message-Id: <200104232204.RAA10047@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2175 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, April 23 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2175 In this digest: Re: IN> hail mary... Re: IN> Disturbance Question IN> Religion in In Nomine IN> Re: It's so hard. Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Re: IN> Re: It's so hard. IN> Remnant Question Re: IN> Remnant Question Re: IN> Re: It's so hard. Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Re: IN> Whisper not the name of Madness... Part Two Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine IN> FWD: Question re Ethereal Rites Re: IN> Disturbance Question Re: IN> Whisper not the name of Madness... Part Two Re: IN> Remnant Question Re: IN> Remnant Question IN> Re: Live bait Re: IN> Re: Live bait Re: IN> Re: Live bait Re: IN> Remnant Question Re: IN> New Tether Re: IN> Remnant Question Re: IN> Re: Live bait IN> Superiors and Death Re: IN> Superiors and Death Re: IN> Superiors and Death ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 05:50:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> hail mary... - --- Cameron McCurry wrote: > > well. When Americans can grow up and learn to be > tolerant of religious > > beliefs other than their own (not all Americans, jeez), > maybe we'll be able > > to be mature about these sorts of things. !!! And exactly when did we decide that Americans had cornered the market on religious intolerance? WE didn't invent the Inquisition. Or Jihad. Nor did we feed Christians to the lions. Bigotry in the name of some god or another is a Human failing, not a national one. This is a case where art -- and certainly IN -- should imitate life. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 05:57:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance Question - --- Charles Phipps wrote: >(I think > 20 demons instantly soul killed is about equivalent to a > minor superior dying, how about you?). Only if they're Word-bound. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:29:11 -0400 From: Mary Subject: IN> Religion in In Nomine However in a game where one really wants to be a serious discussion of good/evil and respectful of the man's message... One of the themes that is most easily forgotten is that In Nomine and the war are essentially about humans--not about god or pandering to the immature (in the sense that a 1000 years or so is an eyeblink in the life of immortals) and poorly founded beliefs of humanity. And the disturbing (or unifying and refreshing--depending on your comfort level) truth that even the immensely powerful immortals can't answer every question. Even Archangels and Demon Princes struggle against doubt and uncertainity. On the important levels they have free will. (except that their npc's) The power to choose one's own actions, no matter how much power one has, is the center of heroism. With a god telling everyone what's right and wrong, where is the struggle? If anything it demeans the struggle of everyone participing in The War, including the PC's. Even for the blessed and the damned, good and evil are a personal choice. (Even for Shedim) "It's not just Science, it's an Adventure!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 07:37:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> Re: It's so hard. Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:28:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew B. Gerber" Subject: It's so hard. (Was Re: IN> Not-So-Evil Thoughts) On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Kish wrote: >>Which Demon Prince do all of you think is /most/ >>likely to redeem, and why, other than Lilith? >>(Lilith being excluded just because her differences >>from the other Princes are so obvious that the "why" >>part of the question is likely to be too simple.) >Nybbas. (snip) _Nicely_ done. I've always wanted to play with a Redeemed Nybbas, but I could never think of anything that Redneck had said already in Dark Victory. Nice to see that there's another interpetation*. :) Moe *Although Ben Acosta's made some good copy out of an AA Nybbas for the Tattered net.book (although the situation is completely different). ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 07:43:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 03:08:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. >A duel-Superior Victory, even! > >And dark as hell, in an Elohitey sorta way... shivers >abound. That's the Elohim for you. I'd rather face a Malakite with a toothache than a Elohite that's calmly worked out What Needs To Be Done... If an Elohite didn't coin the phrase "God will know His own", one should've. >One wonders if God itself wouldn't step in at some >point - this one makes Uriel look like a moderate, >really. Well... it's not like anybody _started_ the plague, and they _did_ keep it under control. They just ... maximized the effectiveness of it. And, after all, what is death but a plane-shift? The good went to Heaven, the bad are being well-ministered to, and the mass of humanity is finally free to fulfill their potential. It's the best of all possible worlds, really. ;) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:43:27 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: It's so hard. At 7:37 AM -0700 4/23/01, Maurice Lane wrote: > >*Although Ben Acosta's made some good copy out of an >AA Nybbas for the Tattered net.book (although the >situation is completely different). Oh, like a Tattered AA comes within a country mile of a redeemed AA. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalite of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:52:15 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: IN> Remnant Question As mentioned in the Corporeal Player's Guide a Remnant can be restored to it's Celestial Status. I was wondering about three things. 1. What happens if an angelic Remnant has it's Celestial Force restored by a Demon Prince or a demonic Remnant is restored by an Archangel? 2. What happens if a Malakite is restored by a Demon Prince? 3. If a Lilim is restored by an Archangel is it automatically a Bright Lilim? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:05:16 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Remnant Question > > As mentioned in the Corporeal Player's Guide a Remnant can be >restored to it's Celestial Status. I was wondering about three things. > 1. What happens if an angelic Remnant has it's Celestial Force >restored by a Demon Prince or a demonic Remnant is restored by an >Archangel? > 2. What happens if a Malakite is restored by a Demon Prince? > 3. If a Lilim is restored by an Archangel is it automatically a >Bright Lilim? > Hm. The way I see it, a celestial's nature is not completely determined by where the component forces come/came from. But in the case of remnants, it's a little different. A remnant is a remnant is a remnant. For a superior, adding forces to a remnant is similar to creating a new celestial with forces donated from another angel or demon. That is to say, a remnant restored by an Archangel will be a reliever (possibly fledging immediately), a remnant restored by a Demon Prince will be a familiar (possibly fledging immediately.) If a Malakite (or any band/choir) becomes a remnant, it is no longer a Malakite. Any band/choir related powers that still remain are rather like a chicken running around after it's head has been cut off. And no superior other than Lilith can create Lilim of any kind, which includes pushing extra forces on lilim remnants. So unless Lilith has the ability to do it, bright lilim will never be spontaneously created. I don't know if that's canon, but at least it's consistent and prevents twinking. jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:06:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Re: It's so hard. - --- Whistling in the Dark wrote: > At 7:37 AM -0700 4/23/01, Maurice Lane wrote: > > > >*Although Ben Acosta's made some good copy out of > an > >AA Nybbas for the Tattered net.book (although the > >situation is completely different). > > Oh, like a Tattered AA comes within a country mile > of a redeemed AA. Hrmph. You can Redeem AAs in ... well, the Tattered setting is possibly a notch _below_ Dark. Or off to one side, maybe. "Dim?"* :) Moe *I mean, any setting that describes one particular Archangel as "Think Camus or Sartre, only happy" is not going to be, well, normal. ;) ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:23:45 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. I was depressed and squicked out by this (which is how I'm *supposed* to be feeling, I think), but I liked what you did with Novalis. It's entirely in character. Now, for other Superior reactions, here's my guesses... Blandine -- She spends as much of her time as she can in Hell with Novalis, helping her try to bring the Light to the damned souls. She hasn't entirely distanced herself from Heaven as Novalis has, but she has been *really* chilly to most everybody recently. "When you fight monsters, take care that you do not become a monster. They did not take care." Dominic -- Is still trying to put his case together. Even if his odds of winning are effectively zero point zero, damn it, he's still gonna try. The only thing that could make this any worse for him is the additional knowledge that he never tried. "There was no justice in this." Eli -- Hasn't been seen. By anybody. Gabriel -- The death of Belial did not bring her peace, as the events of this victory only compounded her madness. Yves commented that even he did not know what finally pushed her over the edge into incurable dementia... the great Cruelty being committed by Heaven, or the fact that events had arranged things such that such Cruelty may have been necessary. It's been generally assumed that Gabriel committed suicide. Nobody, however, has seen the body. Or her Heart. Laurence -- When Laurence saw the shape of what was occurring, and knew that he could not stop it -- was *bound* by his oaths *not* to try and stop it, because it would indeed achieve victory -- he went very quiet. He led the Host to the Final Victory with perfect efficiency and detachment. He saw the defeat of Hell, knew that he had accomplished his mission, obeyed the last commands of both his Lord and his father Uriel, and fulfilled all of his oaths. It was over. It was all, finally, over. And then, to atone for the ultimate dishonor he had committed by condining the slaying the innocent along with the guilty with weapons of mass destruction, Heaven's most perfect samurai quietly resigned his post, went to the foot of Jacob's Ladder with only one old friend accompanying him to stand as his kaishakunin, and committed seppuku. Nowhere in Heaven do the flowers bloom more than over Laurence's grave. Michael -- "The War is over. Good. Hell got beat. Good. Jean & Jordi found a very efficient way of doing it. Good. I didn't have a word to say against it in Council. Obviously. We *had* to win, and we won. "But I don't look back on all of my unbroken string of victories with pride... I only look back on some of them with pride. And this is not one of those that I wish to look back on. "The War is over. But the Peace that's following it is too cold, too passionless, too *heartless* for me. When fighting, you must *never* lose sight of what you're fighting for. And I'm not sure whether we did or not. "Laurence *was* sure. Laurence acted on that certainty. I have never regretted anything in my entire life more than having to stand there and give Laurence that final blow. "Except for the fact that I can't be certain... whether I'm regretting that none would be willing to do the same for me." - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:47:16 -0000 From: "Fallen Seraph" Subject: Re: IN> Whisper not the name of Madness... Part Two >Wow... GREAT writeup. I'm not into retroconning, but I'm tempted to >introduce Aballam into my existing group as a new Prince... Thanks! > > Calabim (R) -- Shatterers of minds and destroyers of sanity, Aballam's > > Calabim may cause Mind hits with their resonance if they wish, adding >their > > Eth forces rather than Corp when doing so. > >Because people have such fewer Mind Hits than Body Hits, I'd suggest *not* >adding the Calabite's Ethereal Forces to the roll... otherwise it's too >easy to knock someone out with one hit. good point. it would mean that they'd have a bit of a problem with celestials, but i guess it's ok vs humans. > > Lillim This needs to be clarified more. "Insanity" in IN is generally a >Discord >(or Disadvantage). I'd suggest something similar to the table in G:IN >(a wonderful table, I must say)... > >"Lilim of Madness may use a geas to drive someone temporarily insane. If >the victim fails to resist the geas, the Lilim may choose Discords for him >to suffer for a duration. The level of the duration (as found on the >length of service chart) plus the level(s) of the Discord(s) must not >exceed the level of the geas, plus one." > >This way a Geas/1 would let you give someone Angry/1 for an hour, while a >Geas/4 would let you give someone Angry/3 for an hour, Angry/1 for a week, >or Angry/1 + Berserk/1 + Murderous/1 for an hour. that's a good idea. I couldn't really think of a suitable mechanic, so left it vague. must read my G:IN more thoroughly > > Pachadim >This should be restricted, methinks. oops. my bad. of course it's restricted, given it boosts their resonance. I threw these guys in pretty much at the last moment. >I *loved* this writeup - I hope the comments help. glad you liked it. More superiors to come: Watch this space... - -FallenSeraph "I still believe in God, but He no longer believes in me..." http://eternalcity.freeservers.com ICQ: 110193631 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:54:30 -0700 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. >From: "Charles Glasgow" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. >Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:23:45 > >> >And then, to atone for the ultimate dishonor he had committed by condining >the slaying the innocent along with the guilty with weapons of mass >destruction, Heaven's most perfect samurai quietly resigned his post, went >to the foot of Jacob's Ladder with only one old friend accompanying him to >stand as his kaishakunin, and committed seppuku. > I would disagree. Laurence is the perfect Catholic knight, not the perfect samurai. According to Catholics, committing suicide for any reason is the first thing you can do, for it represents the ultimate loss of faith. It shows that you no longer trust God to make everything work out int he end. Therefore, if Laurence commited seppuku, it would not be to atone for dishonor, but it might be because the events of the War have made him lose respect in the Divine Plan. - -Bevan - ------- "We've alway been under seige. The 'Real World' keep shoving us into cornors - -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:03:43 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Bevan Thomas wrote: > According to Catholics, committing suicide for any reason is the > first thing you can do, for it represents the ultimate loss of faith. "Worst," not "first"? Yeah, Laurence might well morph into an Archangel of Eternal Pennance. *If* he felt that badly about the Jordi/Jean victory. Moe, how do you think the various Archangels would react? It's your scenario. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:12:37 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. >I would disagree. Laurence is the perfect Catholic knight, not the perfect >samurai. As valid an interpretation as mine, but I wanted to mix in a little non-Western chivalric imagery. I do that to Laurence occasionally. >According to Catholics, committing suicide for any reason is the first >thing you can do, for it represents the ultimate loss of faith. It shows >that you no longer trust God to make everything work out in the end. >Therefore, if Laurence commited seppuku, it would not be to atone for >dishonor, but it might be because the events of the War have made him lose >respect in the Divine Plan. Given that Laurence was the *executor* of that Divine Plan, as Commander of the Host, I would venture to say that it's kind of hard to have the one without the other. Especially in this context. Regardless of the cultural words one uses to designate it, what I meant was this -- Laurence was handed a task that his honor permitted him neither to carry out (due to the death of innocents) nor refuse to carry out (due to his oaths). So he carried it out -- and then destroyed himself rather than live with what he had done in the name of God. Because this is the only way in which I can see this Superior Victory happening at all, instead of Laurence invoking his position as Commander of the Host to utterly forbid Jordi & Jean from doing any such thing and ordering them to immediately undo whatever they had already done. And given that Laurence will *never* resign his post (it's one of his Malakite Oaths, as specified in Sup1), and that the only two people who can relieve a Commander of the Host of his position are Dominic and God...? Well, given that Dominic was disagreeing with this proposed Final Solution himself, that would have left it up to God -- and I didn't want to right in "God directly ordered that things be carried out this way, and/or relieved Laurence of his position when he refused"... because that would have removed the doubt and uncertainty that I thought Moe was going for. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:21:06 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. > Regardless of the cultural words one uses to designate it, what I meant was > this -- Laurence was handed a task that his honor permitted him neither to > carry out (due to the death of innocents) nor refuse to carry out (due to > his oaths). So he carried it out -- and then destroyed himself rather than > live with what he had done in the name of God. Laurence may want to pursue a different form of suicide. Perhaps there are still evil ethereal forces out there that he can't beat... he may passively kill himself by seeking them out in one final quest. That maintains his Catholic sensibilities while properly incorporating your neat suicide riff, and adds in a bit of cowboy sentimentality. > Chuckg Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:20:55 -0700 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. >From: Earl Wajenberg >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. >Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:03:43 -0500 > > >"Worst," not "first"? > > Woops. Yeah, I mean "worst." For instance, according to my Medieval Studies professor, the worst thing that Judas did was not to betray Christ, but to commit suicide. Because that shows that he did not trust God enough to throw himself at his mercy. - -Bevan - ------- "We've alway been under seige. The 'Real World' keep shoving us into cornors - -- so we've built some worlds of our own. Now whoever's controlling this... wants to take those worlds away. Well, I call that interplanetary war." -T. Campbell, "Fans: the Fandom Menace" _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:50:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine - --- Mary wrote: > The power to choose one's own actions, no matter how much > power one has, is > the center of heroism. With a god telling everyone > what's right and wrong, where is the struggle? Depends on whether the god is informing or enforcing. When everyone is made to do right, there is no struggle. But when you have clear knowledge of what right and wrong are and yet still have the freedom to choose wrong, the struggle is in you. Black-and-white morality doesn't invalidate that inner turmoil -- quite often that's what you need to create it. If the line separating right and wrong is blurred into nonexistence, the ability to choose between good and evil is taken away just as surely as if one was prevented from doing wrong. In order to struggle with crossing the line, one must have a line to cross. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:43:02 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> FWD: Question re Ethereal Rites >Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 23:44:19 -0500 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [Adam Thomas Gieseler ] [You're on the posters-l now, but for all others, please CAREFULLY read the instructions at www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/lists.html when trying to s u b s c r i b e. You have to send the message to a majordomo address, NOT the address of the list you want to be s u b s c r i b e d to. --Beth] >Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 00:35:16 -0400 >From: Adam Thomas Gieseler >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Question re Ethereal Rites > > I'm preparing to GM an In Nomine campaign, and one of my players >wants to play an Ethereal. My question is, what Rites, if any, should a >starting Ethereal player character get? Do Ethereals get Rites of their >own? The Marches mentions worship Rites, where mortals transfer Essence >to an Ethereal, but doesn't seem to mention whether they get standard >Rites of their own. I told the player that he would start without any >Rites, but that he might later (if he builds up his legend enough) gain >the ability to grant others worship Rites. How would the GMs here >approach this question? > >Adam Gieseler > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:51:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Disturbance Question At 2:19 PM -0400 4/22/01, Charles Phipps wrote: >This is part of our PBEM but one of our characters is possesed of a very >potent one use artifact (yes it's a HHG but it's not made in antioch) and >threw the device in the middle of 20 demons in celestial form that were >standing there gloating over our soon to be complete destruction. > >I'm trying to figure out the disturbance if say all of them are killed as >part of a joke... The death of celestials, either in vessels or soul-death, doesn't cause disturbance. (Well, if you killed people in Heaven, and were a demon, it would.) The relic's destruction wouldn't cause disturbance either, probably -- or at least not much. Just the corporeal aspect of it. The Essence used/released in the relic's activation would cause disturbance. Up to the GM how much that is. >and whether or not every archangel and demon Prince in Heaven and Hell is >going to bolt up their head and wonder what in the blazes THAT was (I think >20 demons instantly soul killed is about equivalent to a minor superior >dying, how about you?). Doesn't matter -- Superior-death doesn't cause disturbance either. Now, the Essence and Word-effects that would be unleashed in the battle that _killed_ a Superior -- _THAT_ causes disturbance. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:53:32 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Whisper not the name of Madness... Part Two At 6:36 PM -0400 4/22/01, Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: >On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> At 10:23 PM -0400 4/20/01, Rev. Pee Kitty wrote: >>>I'd suggest something similar to the table in G:IN >> >(a wonderful table, I must say)... >> Table? Discord Table? I can't find this in my copy of GIN. (Do > >The Geasa table, which has you add together the difficulty of the Geas + >the duration and get a final level for the Geas... great table. Oh, _that_ table. The one we lifted nearly wholesale (some tweaks) from the Geases Table in FotM... O:> (Which I wrote with Walter's help in the first place, so I can still beam happily and take the credit for it.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:42:43 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Remnant Question > As mentioned in the Corporeal Player's Guide a Remnant can be >restored to it's Celestial Status. I was wondering about three things. > 1. What happens if an angelic Remnant has it's Celestial Force >restored by a Demon Prince or a demonic Remnant is restored by an >Archangel? > 2. What happens if a Malakite is restored by a Demon Prince? > 3. If a Lilim is restored by an Archangel is it automatically a >Bright Lilim? In all cases, the Superior can make the new celestial (and it *is* a new Celestial, sharing nothing but a Vessel and some scattered memories with the old one, which is _dead_) any Band or Choir they can make. So if a Demon Prince cared to add a Celestial Force to a Remnant which was once a Malakite, they could make it any Band except Lilim (except for Lilith, and one wonders if she even *could*). Mind you, the new demon would have numerous memories of being a Pure, unFalling being with an utter hatred of Hell, but now a demonic nature. Unless it was a Balseraph, I'm thinking *sproing* inna head sockets, leading to either a quick Redemption or a messy psychological case. (Maybe an interesting way to get demons for Madness. ;^) ) William ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:10:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Remnant Question I'm sure I've seen these questions before... O:/ At 10:52 AM -0400 4/23/01, Cameron McCurry wrote: > As mentioned in the Corporeal Player's Guide a Remnant can be >restored to it's Celestial Status. I was wondering about three things. > 1. What happens if an angelic Remnant has it's Celestial Force >restored by a Demon Prince or a demonic Remnant is restored by an >Archangel? This is a GM call; in genreal, the restoring Superior's nature is what dictates the "restored" Remnant's nature. Princes make demons, Archangels make angels. > 2. What happens if a Malakite is restored by a Demon Prince? Malakim, not being able to Fall ( off the _floor!_), are special case 1. The Prince probably either gets a member of another Band, a demonling, or a very Discordant Malakite. > 3. If a Lilim is restored by an Archangel is it automatically a >Bright Lilim? This is special case 2: see the resolution of the Mira sub-plot that is in _The Final Trumpet_. It took both Lilith _and_ Blandine to recreate the Bright Lilim known as Mira. Without Lilith, the chances are high that you will get: a member of another Choir, a reliever, or a Discordant dark Lilim. And if you don't like my answers, Jo's are good too. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:13:19 EDT From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: Live bait Chuckg wrote: << You know, I just had a thought that knowing where a Demon Prince is going to be focusing the lion's share of his attention in advance is a situation that could potentially be of great use to Heaven... ... and given the selflessness of angels, you wouldn't even have to be particularly manipulative about it. >> The problem with this, as I see it, is that once one side does it, the other side can do it as well. Given Lucifer's ability to distribute Words, who's to say that all of the Archangels won't suddenly be experiencing word-friction within half an hour after they try something like this? Sam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:27:46 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Live bait [snip] > > ... and given the selflessness of angels, you wouldn't even have to > >be particularly manipulative about it. >> >The problem with this, as I see it, is that once one side does it, the >other side can do it as well. Given Lucifer's ability to distribute Words, >who's to say that all of the Archangels won't suddenly be experiencing >word-friction within half an hour after they try something like this? In order to experience *significant* Word-friction, as opposed to "The wimp on the other end went nuts in a week Word-friction", one would have to appoint significantly powerful and Distincted demons to the task. IOW, the ones who *aren't* too stupid to notice what you're doing to them. Most of those (hell, *ALL* of those) kinds of demons ain't exactly gonna volunteer for this job. Angels are selfless enough to volunteer for suicide missions. Demons aren't. And can you give a Word to a being that not only isn't interested in it, but is actively wishing not to get it? I dunno, but my guess is not. Just another advantage Heaven has over Hell. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:32:34 -0700 From: "Kish" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Live bait From: "Charles Glasgow" <> Yes. Or Lucifer wouldn't be noted as handing out humiliating Words as a form of punishment. --Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:35:43 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Remnant Question > I'm sure I've seen these questions before... O:/ If they were posted before, allow me a moment to say "oops!" > 2. What happens if a Malakite is restored by a Demon Prince? > > Malakim, not being able to Fall ( off the _floor!_), > are special case 1. The Prince probably either gets a member of another > Band, a demonling, or a very Discordant Malakite. And if it's a Discordant Malakite, I have a feeling that it's a dead Malakite a few seconds later as it launches itself at the Demon Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:43 +0100 (BST) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> New Tether In article <20010423054247.24734.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com>, moelane_1999@yahoo.com (Maurice Lane) wrote: > The Library of Congress (Thomas Jefferson Building) (Archives) I'm rather pleased with the extent to which this resembles the Tether at Cambridge University Library that I use ;-) That is a tether to Yves, for campaign-plot reasons, quite apart from my not having thought of Beth. - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:14:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Remnant Question At 4:35 PM -0400 4/23/01, Cameron McCurry wrote: >> I'm sure I've seen these questions before... O:/ > > If they were posted before, allow me a moment to say "oops!" No, I don't think it was you. It was just the same questions. O:> [...] >> Band, a demonling, or a very Discordant Malakite. > > And if it's a Discordant Malakite, I have a feeling that it's a dead >Malakite a few seconds later as it launches itself at the Demon Prince. Oh, well, quite probably! - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:07:39 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Live bait ><but s actively wishing not to get it?>> > >Yes. > >Or Lucifer wouldn't be noted as handing out humiliating Words as a form of >punishment. Yes, but unless I'm mistaken that's to beings who have asked him for a Word... and are just getting a Word that they didn't expect. IOW, they *thought* Lucifer was giving them the Word they wanted, so they cooperated. Until they find out, when it was too late, that they'd been skunked. Admittedly, I suppose it's theoretically possible for Lucifer to pull this trick on some Distincted demon powerful enough to actually give significant Word-friction to an Archangel, but after the first one all's that will do is create a tremendous amount of lack of interest among the more powerful demons in Hell of ever actually applying for any Words. Not to mention, of course, that Archangels cooperate much better than Demon Princes. A Demon Prince having his ego baited (it's not even the Word-friction that gets them so much as the implied insult) tends to be operating alone, unless he's willing to use up mucho currency and favors paying for the assistance (which is a strategic gain for Heaven anyway, as it is causing a foe to expend significant material resources on things that he would otherwise never have spent them on). An Archangel in a sudden amount of Word-friction pain, OTOH, can count on his or her loyal friends pitching in as best they can *without* having to be paid in coin of the realm or Geasa. (Gabriel, of course, still suffers because her bete noire Belial is too powerful a Prince to easily tackle, and the strategic balance has yet to permit an all-out "Time to kill the Demon Prince" assault. Some *non*-Superior Word-bound, OTOH, would either be too minor to really do more than annoy the Archangel in question, or else be squished like a bug under a heel by everybody from the Order of the Eternal Sword on up to an All-Archangel Revenge Squad). - -- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:45:32 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Superiors and Death >Well, no, not even close. (Twenty demons dying == Minor Superior dying? >C'mon... maybe two HUNDRED.) But it'll make the same amount of >disturbance, sure enough - none. Oh come on. I'm fairly sure if the Sergeant Major or Ophis died someone in the Symphony would here it and it would be the equivalent of a minor superior dying. I run my campaign where Archangels and regular angels (same with demons and demon princes) arn't really as strong as people make them out to be but merely have considerable more access to resources and energies (essence) to put it together. Basically in an In Nomine fanfic I'm writing for my PBEM, Ophis is intended to kill Eli on the corporeal world with a few Unholy rockets and demonic grenades before engauging him in Celestial combat personally.... Now technically speaking this is still ALOT of forces having been knocked off here and there but it's still one of the most ancient and powerful of angels in existence here being wiped out by modern (and expensive) hellish weaponry along with a Duke. BTW all the Demons are demons of the new Prince of Disease led by their Duke, presumably including a Count and three barons at the least....it's possible they're all knights as well. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 09:48:05 +1200 From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> Superiors and Death >BTW all the Demons are demons of the new Prince of Disease led by their >Duke, presumably including a Count and three barons at the least....it's >possible they're all knights as well. Not for long. Hahahahahah Ari _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:55:10 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Superiors and Death >Basically in an In Nomine fanfic I'm writing for my PBEM, Ophis is intended >to kill Eli on the corporeal world with a few Unholy rockets and demonic >grenades before engauging him in Celestial combat personally.... Whoops. Vessel-death snaps you *directly* back to your Heart. If you vessel-kill somebody, his celestial form does not hang around the death scene afterwards, not even for a little bit. So Eli wakes up back in wherever he's hidden his Heart in Heaven (Between their beyond-the-limits Will scores and their usual multi-tasking, Archangels are effectively immune to Trauma), and goes "O-kay, now I'm mad. Time to find some really Creative ways to make that jerk's life miserable." Besides, a non-Superior facing a Superior in Celestial combat is the celestial equivalent of a signed and sealed suicide note. Vessel-death doesn't do a single bit of damage to your Forces at all, so even blowing Eli up with a *nuke* wouldn't help Ophis' cause one bit. - -- Chuckg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2175 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.