From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Apr 24 12:41:37 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21865 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:41:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id MAA16480 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:36:35 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:36:35 -0500 Message-Id: <200104241736.MAA16480@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2177 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, April 24 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2177 In this digest: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. IN> The Ninth Gate IN> Murdering Superiors Re: IN> Murdering Superiors Re: IN> Murdering Superiors Re: IN> Murdering Superiors Re: IN> Murdering Superiors IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." Re: IN> Re: Live bait Re: IN> Superiors and Death Re: IN> Soul killing and the Environment Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." Re:IN> The Ninth Gate Re:IN> The Ninth Gate Re: IN> Murdering Superiors Re: IN> Re: Live bait Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2175 Re: IN> FWD: Question re Ethereal Rites Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." Re: IN> Soul killing and the Environment Re: IN> FWD: Question re Ethereal Rites Re: IN> FWD: Question re Ethereal Rites Re: IN> Re: Live bait IN> IN Cynicism - Was Ethereal Rites Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:00:39 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. > One wonders what would've happened had Laurence Resonated Jordi and Jean > while they were on Trial by Judgement. Assuming that they agreed to submit > to the Resonation, that is. Superior-on-Superior ineffability, methinks. Even if they *do* submit to the Resonation, the resonating Archangel still doesn't get the highest check digits. - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:12:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:03:43 -0500From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> I'm back... and with a Superior Victory in tow. >Yeah, Laurence might well morph into an Archangel of >Eternal Pennance. >*If* he felt that badly about the Jordi/Jean >victory. Moe, how do you think the various >Archangels would react? It's your scenario. I thought about it, but then I realized that, Novalis aside, it really didn't matter how they reacted. Well, it would be more accurate to say that their reaction was ... irrelevant. (snip) I never said that this scenario was _nice_*... ;) Moe *And it's certainly not indicative of my default perception of either Jean or Jordi. However, I've never let that stop me from exploring a certain concept... ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:41:40 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> The Ninth Gate >Hee. Ninth Gate. Neat movie, sorta vaguely INish, but there was far too >much meaningless symbology, and at the end it just sorta cut out as if >the producer'd run out of money. >Oh, and for the post itself, cool. I'm not sure if the symbology was as meaningless as everyone gave credit for. On amazon.com's review of the film they said that the Tarot cards that Lucifer had arranged in his book had a very specific meaning and that together they roughly meant a journey was about to be undertaken by a man and at the end he would bring total destruction. It appears that the Big L was looking out for a commander of the armies of evil or something simalarly unpleasant the entire movie. Basically he got tired of black robed people who were already sending themselves to hell willingly wanting him to preside as master of ceromonies at orgies and the crazy types who just wanted to rule the world and we're willing to sell their worthless souls to get it Depp on the other hand played a man cool, smart, amoral instead of taking perverse pleasure in being immoral, and who knew exactly how to appeal to a man's sense of greed and wickedness without making him feel like he'd done anything wrong. Probably why the Lilim was sent to gaurd him. - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:46:47 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Murdering Superiors >If Ophis doesn't have a major Word before going into the fight, he's going >to be lucky to come out of it as anything other than a remnant. Well Eli's also pretty insane at this point and probably is little more than a remanant himself you know. Really, of course the deck is stacked! The Death of a Superior and certainly his ASSAISSINATION is a rare occurance and why I think Ophis is willing to take him out. Still I think the kind of forces which would disrupt eli and Ophis's skill in battle would give him enough of an edge to win, especially with such a be-ragged foe as Kobal has left him. *** In any case I understand your objections and appreciate them. The question is does anyone have any BETTER ways to kill Eli or another SUperior when they are actively trying to avoid such? BTW Meserach WE DO NOT KNOW did not fight back and the idea that he didn't is IMO ridiculous. I think Haagenti managed to beat the Prince on his own....he just had a really neet attunement to do so. :-) Or maybe I'm trying too hard to "mortality up" my superiors :-( - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:51:31 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Murdering Superiors From: "Charles Phipps" > >If Ophis doesn't have a major Word before going into the fight, he's going > >to be lucky to come out of it as anything other than a remnant. > > Well Eli's also pretty insane at this point and probably is little more than > a remanant himself you know. No, I don't. > Still I think the kind of forces which would disrupt eli and Ophis's skill > in battle would give him enough of an edge to win, especially with such a > be-ragged foe as Kobal has left him. Regardless of what Kobal may or may not have done to Eli, he would still be able to use his own Malakite attunement. > BTW Meserach WE DO NOT KNOW did not fight back and the idea that he didn't > is IMO ridiculous. He was the Prince of Sloth - for him to fight back would be to go against the nature of his own Word. > Or maybe I'm trying too hard to "mortality up" my superiors :-( Quite likely, yes. ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 05:21:47 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Murdering Superiors >From: "Charles Phipps" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: >Subject: IN> Murdering Superiors >Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:46:47 -0400 > > >If Ophis doesn't have a major Word before going into the fight, he's >going > >to be lucky to come out of it as anything other than a remnant. > >Well Eli's also pretty insane at this point and probably is little more >than >a remanant himself you know. > >Really, of course the deck is stacked! The Death of a Superior and >certainly >his ASSAISSINATION is a rare occurance and why I think Ophis is willing to >take him out. > Sounds fair to me. I was going to have Malphas assassinated in my game (if it had gone on long enough) -- no real shortage of possible motives ... jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:22:58 +1200 From: "Alex Liddell" Subject: Re: IN> Murdering Superiors > > BTW Meserach WE DO NOT KNOW did not fight back and the idea that he >didn't > > is IMO ridiculous. > >He was the Prince of Sloth - for him to fight back would be to go against >the nature of his own Word. Yeah but he must have defended his Word in some way. There are people much smarter than Haagenti and more powerful who would have liked to depose Meserach and who didn't because he defended his position. Surely witout any thought whatsoever he could have imposed Sloth upon Haagenti as he came in for lunch..... Meserach was a Prince, and despite being a big fatty, has complete control over piss-ant little demons. The idea that Non-Superiors can off Superiors just doesn't wash with me at all. Alex _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:32:57 -0500 From: "Charles Glasgow" Subject: Re: IN> Murdering Superiors - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Liddell" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 12:22 AM Subject: Re: IN> Murdering Superiors > >He was the Prince of Sloth - for him to fight back would be to go against > >the nature of his own Word. > > Yeah but he must have defended his Word in some way. There are people much > smarter than Haagenti and more powerful who would have liked to depose > Meserach Eh? Why? It's not as if it's the most desirable Word out there... > and who didn't because he defended his position. Surely witout any > thought whatsoever he could have imposed Sloth upon Haagenti as he came in > for lunch..... Don't forget that Haagenti had his Word well before he got his Princedom, and had a Gluttonous Discord at about, oh, level one million or so besides. Making him stop eating would have taken a lot more than Sloth's half-hearted effort... And let us never forget the ever-popular Infernal Intervention. Let us also not forget that Kobal *wanted* Haagenti to become a Prince, and if an energetic and active Prince (Kobal) was secretly opposing a lazy and careless prince (Meserach), then it's not surprising that Haagenti proved surprisingly resistant. He may well have been shielded. > Meserach was a Prince, and despite being a big fatty, has > complete control over piss-ant little demons. Unless Lucifer, or his court jester, thinks its more funny to have things happen the other way. > The idea that Non-Superiors can off Superiors just doesn't wash with me at > all. Unless they're helped (secretly or otherwise) by a Superior or an Intervention, I agree with you. Or unless you get the Superior's Heart in your greedy little hands... (we do have to account for Valefor, after all.) - -- Chuckg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:09:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." Blipping rule that Kyrios/Shedim are SOL when it comes to Remnantizing: would it have been so hard to leave more loopholes? I _hate_ using a MacGuffin to get around stuff...* :) Anyway, yet another installment in my ongoing attempt to quietly warp the group's perception of a certain Superior. Enjoy, or not. Moe *OK, that's a lie - but I *do* dislike overusing the 'mysterious relic' trick. :) Jahula Kyriotate of Creation IST Children Corporeal Forces: 5 Strength: 12 Agility: 8 Ethereal Forces: 3 Intelligence: 6 Precision: 6 Celestial Forces: 3 Will: 6 Perception: 6 Skills: Dodge/6, Emote/1, Fighting/6, Large Weapon/3 (club), Tactics/1 Songs: Healing (Corporeal/3), Light (Celestial/6), Might (Corporeal/6, Celestial/3), Motion (Corporeal/3), Shields (Corporeal/6, Ethereal/3, Celestial/3) Attunements: Kyriotate of Creation, Malakite of Creation, Kyriotate of Children Once upon a time, there was a Shedite of Dark Humor called Jack. Jack was not a very nice demon, even for a Shedite, and even for a Servitor of Kobal. In fact, Jack was so not very nice that he got to be a Knight of Derision - and even got a special relic from his Prince. Jack liked being a Knight of Derision: it allowed him to do all sorts of fun things. Well, fun for Jack, at least. Now, like most Shedim (or most demons, really), Jack was a bully. And, like most bullies, he was careful to never ever go after anyone who could fight back. That made humans his favorite toys, and he had so many amusing times with them. Unfortunately for Jack, he was especially cowardly, even for a demon, and so decided that the only really fun toys were kids. He was surprised, really, that the rest of his Band-mates didn't play more with kids. You could do the drollest things with them. Then, one day, he discovered the reason why Shedim didn't always play with kids. The reason's name was Christopher, Cherub Angel of Children (and Master of the Granite Hand). Christopher had heard that somebody was HURTING HIS KIDS, and decided to stop by and discuss the matter. See Jack run. Well, he really couldn't run far or fast enough (although Jack certainly tried), and Christopher eventually cornered him. Christopher then proceeded to rip off one Force after another, while Jack discovered exactly what it was like to be the one begging and screaming for mercy. Not that it helped, at all, at all. The Angel of Children had no sense of humor about protecting his kids, and knew (even then) that there's nothing like messy object lessons to get one's point across. The pure, innocent smile on Christopher's face as he slowly ripped away Jack's last Celestial Force should have been the last thing that the Shedite had ever saw. But... wait! There was that relic of Kobal's! Jack never knew exactly what it was, but his Prince had promised him that it would come in handy if he was ever in a tight place. This was the tightest of places, surely. Well, it did save Jack's existence - sort of. You see, Kobal had known of Jack's little quirks, and he had commissioned a relic that would trap the Shedite's Forces if and when he ever got ripped apart. The Prince of Dark Humor thought that it would be funny if he could later recreate the Shedite and send him back out again to face Christopher. It probably would have been a funny joke (the look on Christopher's face alone would have been worth it), except that Kobal had completely forgotten about the whole thing by the time that the Shedite became a Jack in the box. So, the fragmented bundle of Forces stayed in his box and the alley where Christopher had caught up with him. Then ... along came Eli. The Archangel of Creation isn't really responsible for every celestial oddity that's appeared in the last forty corporeal years, you know. That's a silly thing to think. Why, there's at least three or four enigmas that Eli had nothing at all to do with. It's true, though, that in this case, Eli did let Jack out of the box - and for reasons known best to him decided to put him back together again. With personal Forces, no less: it sounds insane, of course, but we are talking about Eli, here. Sensible angels just shrug and move on. Needless to say, Jack (version 2.0) wasn't a very good Shedite anymore. He was good Redemption material, though, so Eli Redeemed him. The Seraphim Council would very much like to know how Eli's managing that trick, by the way (it isn't the first time that this has happened). The new Kyriotate of Creation was then promptly sent upstairs - to Christopher - along with a cheerful but mildly reproving note about how sometimes a lighter touch was needed when dealing with the Other Side. Christopher, now Archangel of Children, wasn't exactly happy to get the note, but he was happy to see Jack (now known as Jahula), oddly enough. Jahula was terrified to see Christopher, of course, but he got over it. He didn't have much choice. Today, Jahula is one of Christopher's little dirty tricks. Everyone knows that Kyriotates of Children can't possess kids, after all, so having that hostage or kidnap victim suddenly levitate across the room and shoot out laser beams is always a shock. Not nearly as much of a shock as when said kidnap victim breaks some hapless demon's spine, of course. Jahula doesn't mind, really: he's having proper fun, now, and when the scariest entity in your personal universe is your boss (and fairly well-disposed towards you), it's hard to be frightened by anybody else. Besides, it's nice to be around kids, now that they aren't screaming anymore... ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 04/01/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 06:41:55 GMT From: ben@zianet.com Subject: Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." > Blipping rule that Kyrios/Shedim are SOL when it comes > to Remnantizing: would it have been so hard to leave > more loopholes? I _hate_ using a MacGuffin to get > around stuff...* :) Could a Kyriotate of Laurence, Michael or David become a Remnant? Having their own vessels, they *would* have somewhere to fall if they lost that last celestial force. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 04:27:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Live bait On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Charles Glasgow wrote: > Yes, but unless I'm mistaken that's to beings who have asked him for a > Word... and are just getting a Word that they didn't expect. > > IOW, they *thought* Lucifer was giving them the Word they wanted, so they > cooperated. Until they find out, when it was too late, that they'd been > skunked. Yep, you're mistaken. S'okay. There are many, many examples in Canon of Lucifer just walking up to a demon who's done a good thing and giving them a Word without their knowledge. The Demon of Stripper comes to mind first - - just dancing away, suddenly she has a Word. Total surprise. [Insert standard "If you want to change canon for your game, go for it" disclaimers here.] - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "People love to be told what to do. They love not doing what they've been told even more. They love it the most when they are made to do it anyway." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 04:31:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Superiors and Death On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Charles Phipps wrote: > >Well, no, not even close. (Twenty demons dying == Minor Superior dying? > >C'mon... maybe two HUNDRED.) But it'll make the same amount of > >disturbance, sure enough - none. > > Oh come on. Excuse me? No, I stand by what I said... twenty piddly little demons dying are not in any way equivalent to Archangel Christopher dying. > I'm fairly sure if the Sergeant Major or Ophis died someone in the Symphony > would here it and it would be the equivalent of a minor superior dying. If by "someone would hear it" you mean disturbance, the answer is no. Sorry. > I run my campaign where Archangels and regular angels (same with demons and > demon princes) arn't really as strong as people make them out to be but > merely have considerable more access to resources and energies (essence) to > put it together. Okay, so you change canon for your game. Fine... so maybe in your game twenty demons dying IS the equivalent of Archangel Christopher dying. That's fine. But you might've wanted to say that back when you first brought the subject up. Y'know... adding "in MY game, at least" to it. > Basically in an In Nomine fanfic I'm writing for my PBEM, Ophis is intended > to kill Eli on the corporeal world with a few Unholy rockets and demonic > grenades before engauging him in Celestial combat personally.... Killing one manifestation of an Archangel just makes that manifestation go away. No trauma, no Heart-snapping, and no Celestial form. Again, if you want to change canon, go for it. Just letting ya know. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is _the best_. -- Frank Zappa, "Packard Goose" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 04:36:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Soul killing and the Environment On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Charles Phipps wrote: > Okay does anyone think that the Death of a Superior or wordbound or even > JUST CELESTIAL period should have some form of effect on the environment in > question? If the GM wants it to, sure. That can be the start of a fun plot hook. Superior or MAJOR Word-Bound only, though, IMO. Otherwise the world would be a very fucked-up place from the *millions* of celestials who've died there since the beginning of time. > I mean let's look at the facts. > > 1. Celestial bodies are composed of highly alien matter to the corporeal > plane No, not really. They're not composed of "matter" at all, but pure Forces, which are not alien to the corporeal plane at all. > 2. Celestial bodies are interwoven with powerful concepts and energies Word-Bound are, yes, I'll agree - but not your average celestial... at least, no more so than a human is. > 3. Those matters and energies are released in celestial combat Err... if you mean lost Forces, I can sort of see what you mean. Maybe a d666 roll when a Word-Bound is destroyed, against the total number of Forces lost; on a success, there's a major lasting effect in the area, the duration governed by the check die? - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! :: Prayers are like junk mail for Jesus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 04:49:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Maurice Lane wrote: > Blipping rule that Kyrios/Shedim are SOL when it comes > to Remnantizing: would it have been so hard to leave > more loopholes? I _hate_ using a MacGuffin to get > around stuff...* :) I know this doesn't help with your Shedite, but if you recall the scenario with my JFK/Clinton Kyrio Remnant*, I think that is one fairly plausible way for a Kyriotate to get Remnantized... * Kyrio was in Celestial Form *and* possessing a human, and got a Divine Intervention as his last Celestial Force was being ripped away. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "I am the greatest man in the world; indeed I am SO great that I can afford great generosity: I encourage all others to adopt the DELUSION that they are as great as I. If they truly thought that they were themselves the greatest, they too would be as generous; and then we would all be able to HUMOR each other, in peace, for none would feel threatened by the now-harmless delusions of everyone else." -- Philo Drummond ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 07:06:31 -0400 From: Ben Pollack Subject: Re:IN> The Ninth Gate >>Hee. Ninth Gate. Neat movie, sorta vaguely INish, but there was far too >>much meaningless symbology, and at the end it just sorta cut out as if >>the producer'd run out of money. >>Oh, and for the post itself, cool. > >I'm not sure if the symbology was as meaningless as everyone gave credit >for. On amazon.com's review of the film they said that the Tarot cards that >Lucifer had arranged in his book had a very specific meaning and that >together they roughly meant a journey was about to be undertaken by a man >and at the end he would bring total destruction. The movie was a decent-but-could-have-been-better attempt to take both of the loosely-related main plot threads in Spanish novelist Arturo Perez-Reverte's _Club Dumas_, and weave them more closely together. Hence, it came out as something of a mish-mosh. Do yourself a favor and read the book. I picked up an English translation which thankfully loses very little -- Perez-Reverte's got a good enough grasp of Anglo-Europeanisms in general that the book comes across very well in the translation, actually -- and bought a copy in Spanish as a birthday present for a friend's Cuban-born Dad, who has been decrying the fact that he's *read* all the Spanish-language novels worth reading. ;) Some of Perez-Reverte's other works, notably _The Flanders Panel_ and _The Fencing Master_, are also worth picking up as potential idea sources for mortal- oriented IN games. _Flanders_ is about a young woman who restores paintings for a living. Commissioned to restore a very famous painting of a medieval knight and his lord, she finds hidden in the painting the clues to solve the mystery of the knight's centuries-old murder. Very cool for those of you who feel like forcing Creation and Judgement into close quarters. _The Fencing Master_ is about an elderly fencing master in turn-of-the-century Spain, the last of a dying breed of old-school professional fencing teachers who long for the days of gentlemanliness and chivalry, and who is approached by a mysterious and beautiful young woman begging to learn the secret of his 'unstoppable thrust' technique. Since he is, of course, an old-school master, he refuses to teach a woman, and then things ... start happening which test his honor and loyalty and other values. I'm sure I need not belabor the potential ideas to be had in this one. Then, of course, there is _The Seville Communion_, the only one I haven't read yet, but plan to purchase this weekend after I get paid on Friday, and which is apparently about a priest who works for the Vatican's shady underbelly of 'External Affairs', who is dispatched to Seville (where the archbishop refers to him and his bosses as "mafiosi, playing at being God's policemen"), to investigate a mystery involving computer hackers who broke into the Vatican's computer system, a wealthy banker who wish to buy the land out from the 300 year old Our Lady of Tears church, and someone who is apparently willing to kill to preserve all the mysteries contained therein. If I *have* to start playing up the IN ideas here, I will start opening whole kegs of whoop-ass, and I'm sure Beth won't stop me. :) In short, do yourself a favor and pick up this man's novels, dagnabit. Especially you, Jo and G.R. ...Right now. Go. I'll wait. >whistling< Are you still reading this? GO! Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:00:59 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re:IN> The Ninth Gate >In short, do yourself a favor and pick up this man's novels, dagnabit. >Especially you, Jo and G.R. ...Right now. Go. I'll wait. I have The Fencing Master, and it is excellent. Good point though. I should read the others. I have a Tim Powers book next on the list after more gothic romances (did you know that about 4000 of the things were published in the period 1800-1820 alone?) though. jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:22:15 From: "Kish Moore" Subject: Re: IN> Murdering Superiors

From: "Prodigal"

From: "Charles Phipps"


> BTW Meserach WE DO NOT KNOW did not fight back and the idea that he didn't
> is IMO ridiculous.

<<He was the Prince of Sloth - for him to fight back would be to go against
the nature of his own Word. >>

 

That's like saying Fleurity must use drugs, as failing to do so would go against the nature of his Word.  (For the benefit of anyone without Superiors 4: Fleurity's expanded writeup indicates he never touches drugs himself.)  We don't know what Meserach's dissonance conditions were--but if he couldn't defend himself, he'd never have lived to be killed by Haagenti.


> Or maybe I'm trying too hard to "mortality up" my superiors :-( 

Too hard for what?  For canon?  Yes, I'm sure you are, in that respect--I'm quite certain that if the official Ophis ever attacked the official Eli, the battle would last about ~2 seconds.  But it's your game, and you already said you've got the Superiors a lot weaker than they are officially.

 

 


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------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:56:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Live bait At 9:07 PM -0400 4/23/01, Charles Glasgow wrote: >><>but s actively wishing not to get it?>> >> >>Yes. >> >>Or Lucifer wouldn't be noted as handing out humiliating Words as a form of >>punishment. > >Yes, but unless I'm mistaken that's to beings who have asked him for a >Word... and are just getting a Word that they didn't expect. True, but consider the Demon of Strippers. Lucifer gave her the Word when she hadn't asked for one, and didn't even know that she was in his presence! So I would assume that Lucifer could, if a demon crossed him, give out the Word of Day-old Dead Puppies whether or not the demon wanted a Word at all. It's part of being a demon; Lucifer has a LOT of power over you. Angels, on the other hand, I would suspect are exactly opposite (at least as regards the Seraphim Council): they'd have to know _exactly_ what Word they were getting _and_ cooperate in it. (What God does in regards to unexpected/unwanted Words would be, natch, an entirely Up-To-The-GM thing.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:05:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2175 At 6:33 PM -0400 4/23/01, Charles Phipps wrote: >> Vessel-death snaps you *directly* back to your Heart. If you vessel-kill >> somebody, his celestial form does not hang around the death scene >> afterwards, not even for a little bit. > >That's providing Superiors have hearts. I rule that such beings lose their >hearts as part of their ascension to Superior-dom. In this case they're >hearts are literally MORPHED into part of the Symphony directly and it's >impossible for them to return to their minature tether to Heaven because >they are now part of the Symphony itself. (Do note that there's a line in the description of the fight against Legion, somewhere, to the effect that Legion sent several Princes back to Hell -- the implication is that this was because he fried their vessels somehow.) >Besides your assuming Eli and Superiors even WEAR vessels, I've always >wondered this but really what if Superior manifestations are for the most >part Celestial? In canon? No. >Explaining why the bangs are so big. Heck, the bangs _would_ be bigger, but Superiors have ways to slip in at "minor" bang level... (Appearing in a vessel causes disturbance, period, if you just came from the celestial realm.) (And Prodigal's right -- if you're going to stack the deck like this, it's kind of pointless to ask "What would happen?" There's too many variables which are peculiar to only this one non-canon situation. ) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:08:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> FWD: Question re Ethereal Rites At 5:38 PM -0500 4/23/01, David Edelstein wrote: >> >From: Adam Thomas Gieseler >> > I'm preparing to GM an In Nomine campaign, and one of my players >> >wants to play an Ethereal. My question is, what Rites, if any, should a >> >starting Ethereal player character get? [...] > >In the EPG (written, but not published, probably never will be, unless I >can get SJG's permission to just post it on my website), Don't forget that there's another author involved who might or might not want the heavily conjoined stuff posted. O:/ (And while I think the EPG is on the far back of the stove, I don't think it's out of the kitchen yet.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:22:30 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> "You're IMPOSSIBLE!" "Yeah, I get that a lot." At 11:09 PM -0700 4/23/01, Maurice Lane wrote: >Blipping rule that Kyrios/Shedim are SOL when it comes >to Remnantizing: would it have been so hard to leave >more loopholes? I _hate_ using a MacGuffin to get >around stuff...* :) Well, while you could sort-of justify a Kyriotate Remnant with "lost a celestial fight while still possessing a host," I just don't see how a Shedite is going to get into celestial combat while in a host... (And there's always Kyriotates of War, Stone, and the Sword. They can Remnatize...) [snip] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:24:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Soul killing and the Environment At 6:44 PM -0400 4/23/01, Charles Phipps wrote: >Okay does anyone think that the Death of a Superior or wordbound or even >JUST CELESTIAL period should have some form of effect on the environment in >question? Depends on the death circumstances. Superiors and major Word-bound, yeah, there will probably be some SFX of some kind. Local scenery exploding and whatnot. It's all quite up to the GM, though; Words aren't quantifiable in quite that way. Minor Word-bound, not necessarily. Generic Servitors, nah, not in canon. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:06:36 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> FWD: Question re Ethereal Rites Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Don't forget that there's another author involved who might or might > not want the heavily conjoined stuff posted. O:/ Right -- I meant permission to post the material I wrote. > (And while I think the EPG is on the far back of the stove, I don't > think it's out of the kitchen yet.) If they haven't published it yet, I don't see why they'd bother to in the future. Is there some reason to believe it will sell better in the future, after the line has faded even further into obscurity? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:28:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> FWD: Question re Ethereal Rites At 12:06 PM -0500 4/24/01, David Edelstein wrote: >> (And while I think the EPG is on the far back of the stove, I don't >> think it's out of the kitchen yet.) > >If they haven't published it yet, I don't see why they'd bother to in >the future. Is there some reason to believe it will sell better in the >future, after the line has faded even further into obscurity? If I could _talk_ about certain matters I know about, I _would_. But I _can't_. O:p - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:13:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner-Thornber Subject: Re: IN> Re: Live bait > True, but consider the Demon of Strippers. Lucifer gave her the Word > when she hadn't asked for one, and didn't even know that she was > in his presence! "Oh hey, that's cool!" thought the demon upon getting the Word of Stale Bong Water. Swiftly on the heels of that came, "Oh hey, that's bad!" After a moment of meditative reflection and dead silence, he thought again, "Oh hey, that's really bad!" After three hard thoughts on the matter, he promptly lost interest, as Djinns are wont to do. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:24:24 From: "Michael Cleveland" Subject: IN> IN Cynicism - Was Ethereal Rites > > (And while I think the EPG is on the far back of the stove, I don't > > think it's out of the kitchen yet.) > >If they haven't published it yet, I don't see why they'd bother to in >the future. Is there some reason to believe it will sell better in the >future, after the line has faded even further into obscurity? > >-David You know, I've been meaning to say this for a while - I constantly hear from certain people on this list that IN is dead, that IN has faded into obscurity, that IN is just completely doomed so why even bother with it... I for one am a little more optimistic. True, IN is probably never going to be as big as DND, and it may never get the full support of SJG compared to what 'Evil Stevie' is willing to put into GURPS (which he created, so it's somewhat understandable) but still... At my FLGS, my retailer can barely keep the stuff on the shelves. It flies out the door within a week of it arriving, if not sooner. I've got friends in other cities who all say the same thing. If you pimp the game properly, if you actually play the game once or twice at the FLGS, if you show the thing off, if you let people look at the mechanics and the style of it, I've found that there's a good chance they'll take it. If In Nomine fails, it is my personaly belief that it will not be because the game sucked, or the company that put it out wasn't well known, or the print quality was bad. It's going to be because nobody has noticed that it's there. Once you let people see that burning feather (which, IMO, had _better_not_ go off the cover) people just go Ooh, what's that? And they're hooked. Hey, everyone's mileage may vary, but that's what I've seen about the game - in less than a year, I know that better than 2 dozen people at Nasa here in Houston have picked it up. Another dozen or more at Compaq. Not just the main book, but the other stuff too... For a dead line, she sure as heck seems to be willing to kick a bit. Michael _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:27:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Religion in In Nomine - --- Omentide wrote: > The line in IN is blurred and shifting. [snip] > But this does not blur the line into non existance. It > simply makes it a > matter of personal choice. Morality and right is almost > never a matter > defined by black and white except in dogma and > fundamentalism. All excellent points. The inevitable "but" is that black and white do exist, whether or not one chooses (there's that word again 0:>) to acknowledge them. The criminal justice system is largely based on moral absolutes like the wrongness of stealing and killing. The absolutes _are_ there, even when we as individuals find them inconvenient. The real problem, as you pointed out so well, is that we (and the characters in IN) don't live in a black-and-white universe. There is a continuum with shades of gray along its length -- but the existence of that continuum doesn't change the absolutes at either end. There are certain things that are absolutely right and absolutely wrong. It's all that stuff in the gray between the extremes that is the source this kind of debate... and the source of dramatic conflict in the game. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Holding a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee." -- William Walton (no relation) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2177 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.