####################GEV List Thingy, August 18th#################### From: sandia!marms@cs.unm.edu (Mike Arms 9232) Subject: GEV: Waterloo scenario For those of us who recently joined the GEV list, would someone post the Waterloo scenario to the list? And to sweeten the deal, I include below some Ogre/GEV articles that I have saved from years gone by from rec.games.board . I believe that none of these articles were in the GEV mail server's available articles. Thanks. -- Mike Arms InterNet: marms@sandia.gov uucp: ...{ucbvax | gatech}!unmvax!sandia!marms ---------------------------------------- >From: swb@codas.att.com (Scott Bowyer) Subject: So you want to build an Ogre... Keywords: Ultimate tanks Newsgroups: rec.games.board Date: 31 May 88 12:21:36 GMT Message-ID: <20925@codas.att.com> Organization: AT&T, Altamonte Springs, FL SO YOU WANT TO BUILD AN OGRE or STOMPER OGRES The Space Gamer had an interesting article using point values to build your own Ogres for the Ogre universe. The have a formula in there for computing point values: armor units = ( space + cost ) * Move * treads * stealth ------------------------------------------ 4 Move, treads, and stealth are all multipliers. 45 treads .... treads = 1 3 movement... move = 1 No stealth ... stealth = 1 So using the above, the formula drops to: armor units = (space + cost) / 4 Now, enter the STOMPER Ogre: Space (Hull size) = 5 (the minimum) 3 AP guns or 3 Ogre Msl. Cost = 3 45 treads = free 3 movement = free armor units = (5 + 3)/4 = 2 AU !!!!! Now, the weak armament sounds almost worthless, but with 45 treads, one can do an awful lot of ramming. All this is for the same cost as a Superheavy tank. Playing a standard Ogre game with 6 of these instead of a Mark III can be a massacre. And six of these are still cheaper than a Mark III! This only works for Ogre. The overrun rules in GEV don't make this unit practical. Also, the Ogre ramming Ogre rules in Ogre don't give me much guess as to how much damage Stompers do in ramming other Ogres. These are still interesting though. >From the Ogre-building article, has anybody found a good use for the missile tubes? They seem to cost much more than they're worth. Anybody want to see my Mark VIIB Ogre from these rules? It has hull size 50 and costs about 152 AU. Also, does anybody think that Ogre missiles are too cheap (Cost=1)? I find you can put an awful lot of them on and have a nasty first strike. Scott Bowyer ********************************************** * Ogre Mk V --- Anything less is just a tank * ********************************************** ---------------------------------------- >From: video@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Henry J. Cobb) Newsgroups: rec.games.board Subject: Infantry design rules for GEV Keywords: GEV OGRE SJG Message-ID: <48078@ut-emx.uucp> Date: 29 Apr 91 01:57:46 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin Costs of Infantry in GEV. Infantry has a variety of abilities which are not reflected in my old formula. The formula is therefore extended to: Cost = Atk * AM * (Range + Move1 + MM1) + Def * 2 * DM * (Range + Move2 + MM2) Where: Cost is in Henrys, divide by 34/6ths to yield VPs. Range is the range factor of the unit, Atk is its normal attack strength and Def is the normal defense strength. Move1 is the units first phase movement factor and Move2 is the units 2nd phase movement factor (zero for most non-GEV units). MM1 comes from the following table: MM Terrain affects movement as: 0 Lt Tank 0.33 GEV 0.5 Hvy Tank 0.8 Infantry 1.0 Ranger Infantry MM2 is the same as MM1 if Move2 > 0, else MM2 is zero. AM is the attack modifer multiplier and can have several factors. Normal infantry can split fire (AM = 1.33) and are doubled in overruns (AM = 1.5) for a total AM of 2.0. DM works like AM but reflects defensive advantages. Infantry gets Step rather than disrupt from Ds (DM = 1.2) and extra terrain defense bonus (DM = 1.5) for a total DM = 1.8. So the cost for 3 squads (strength points) of infantry is: 3 * 2.0 * (1 + 2 + 0.8) + 3 * 2 * 1.8 * (1 + 0 + 0) = 33.6h or 6VPs. VARIANT INFANTRY. Changes between infantry types are more a matter of capital rather than personnel so the costs for variant infantry are noted as an armor unit cost to exchange a squad of normal infantry for the other type. Ranger Infantry, each counter represents one squad of elite infantry. Rangers use stealth suits rather than the PIERCE (Platoon Integrated Electronic Radius Countermeasures Equipment) system of normal infantry for defense. Rangers have attack 1 with range 2, defense 2 and move 3. Rangers treat water as woods and may not combine into multi-squad counters but are otherwise treated as normal infantry. Each Ranger squad costs one point of infantry plus one sixth of an armor unit and is worth 3 VPs. Missile Infantry are normal infantry with one-shot missile launchers. Each squad may fire once at a range of 2 to 4 hexes and is then replaced with normal infantry. It costs one sixth of an armor unit to equip an infantry squad with one-shot missiles. Steve goofed up the costs of two of his units. Marines are plus one twelfth (+1/12th) armor unit per squad for 2.0833 VPs each. GEV-PCs are 4 VPs by the formula (as light GEVs) plus more for the infantry transport role gives one Armor Unit each (6 VPs). ------- I seem to be missing the rest of the article. (Perhaps somebody in Austin could call Steve's BBS up and ask for it? :-) It'll take me a while to refigure my Ogre design rules. -- Henry J. Cobb video@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu SFB Tyrant ---------------------------------------- >From: video@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Henry J. Cobb) Newsgroups: rec.games.board Subject: Ogre costs in GEV Keywords: Ogre GEV Message-ID: <48902@ut-emx.uucp> Date: 13 May 91 12:52:15 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin I'm redoing my Ogre costs as per the Cobb formula. (And if you wanna know what that or I am, look in Space Gamer #69 :) But I've lost my copy of the Ogre Book and so have only tested it against the Ogres in the new set. So here's my numbers of the moment: OGRE cost( Armor Units) Mk-II 7 Mk-III 12 Mk-IV 18 Mk-V 20 If some kind soul in Austin would let me paw through their copy of the Ogre book, I could complete this list and post the system. -- Henry J. Cobb video@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu SFB Tyrant ---------------------------------------- >From: tlin@crow.Berkeley.EDU (Tony Lin) Newsgroups: rec.games.board Subject: GEV Message-ID: <42287@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> Date: 3 Jun 91 18:23:47 GMT Organization: Dept. of Statistics, U. C. Berkeley I recently purchased the board games Ogre/GEV and am very impressed with them ... fast and a lot of fun. I also noticed the rules on the net for armor/Ogre construction. This brings up two questions ... 1) Does anyone have any new Ogre/GEV scenarios, or know where such scenarios might be found? (I already have the Ogre book.) 2) According to my understanding of the armor construction rules, the following unit is legal. But, should it be?! Mega-Howitzer: Atk 2, Range 17, Def 1, Mov 0; costs 2 armor. Now, a unit like this is absolutely *devastating* in scenarios like Breakthrough; how can the Combine player avoid combat if the Paneuropean batteries can rake across the WHOLE board? The way I see it, there are two possible solutions: a) Pretend that such units don't exist; players are limited to the units provided. This sort of defeats the idea of armor construction formulas, but it might be necessary to prevent monstrosities like the above. b) Somehow modify the armor construction rules so that range is either limited (e.g. maximum range of any unit is 8) or more expensive (e.g. maybe the formula should be, times range^2, etc.) Any comments? -- Tony (tlin@stat.Berkeley.EDU) ---------------------------------------- >From: purtill@morley.rutgers.edu (Mark Purtill) Newsgroups: rec.games.board Subject: Re: GEV Message-ID: Date: 3 Jun 91 21:44:50 GMT Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. tlin@crow.Berkeley.EDU (Tony Lin) writes: >I recently purchased the board games Ogre/GEV and am very impressed with >them ... fast and a lot of fun. I also noticed the rules on the net for >armor/Ogre construction. This brings up two questions ... > > > 1) Does anyone have any new Ogre/GEV scenarios, or know > where such scenarios might be found? (I already have > the Ogre book.) > > > 2) According to my understanding of the armor construction > rules, the following unit is legal. But, should it be?! > > Mega-Howitzer: Atk 2, Range 17, Def 1, Mov 0; costs 2 armor. > > Now, a unit like this is absolutely *devastating* in > scenarios like Breakthrough; how can the Combine player > avoid combat if the Paneuropean batteries can rake > across the WHOLE board? The Space Gamer once published a set of armor construction rules (which may or may not be the same as the ones floating around on the net, which I've never seen). An issue or two later (in a special Ogre issue) Steve Jackson (who designed Ogre, etc.) had a little addendum to the rules (which were written by someone else, I think), pointing out exactly this sort of problem. He said that these problems occur because the formulas used did not take into account the limits of the game's armor technology. His basic suggestion seemed to be not to use values much larger than the largest available already (e.g., no ranges much farther than the Howitzer, no speeds much faster than the GEV). He also said that Howitzer-type ranges needed large attack strengths (at least 5?). Both of these kill the Mega-Howitzer. If anyone is interested, I'll see if I can locate the issue and the exact limits he suggested. Mark Purtill purtill@dimacs.rutgers.edu (908)932-4580 ---------------------------------------- >From: kagst@cisunx.UUCP (Kevin A. Geiselman) Newsgroups: rec.games.board Subject: Aircraft in OGRE/GEV Keywords: OGRE, GEV, Mass Distruction Message-ID: <9133@cisunx.UUCP> Date: 26 Apr 88 22:20:11 GMT Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh, Comp & Info Sys Aircraft in OGRE/GEV version 2 (April 1988) Kevin A. Geiselman In "The OGRE Book", an article titled "Continental Siege Aircraft" presents a fighter with a movement allowance of 6. On the game's scale that can be no more than 180 km/hr, mighty slow for an ultra-modern fighter. Contemporary fighter aircraft fly at Mach 2+ (2500 km/hr), that's 13 times faster than the speed presented in the article. To make flying machines in the world of OGRE a little more survivable, effective, and worthwhile, I present my own rules for aircraft: (Note: all references to lasers and cruise missiles are from the "Shockwave" supplement. Those without this suppliment can ignore these references.) 1.00 FIGHTERS AND BOMBERS. On the game's scale, a high speed fighter moving at Mach 2 would move at 60 hexes/turn, much to fast to be playable. Cruise missiles are much more effective (and cheaper, too). Fighters would be engaged in the 'Air Superiority' role, too busy killing other fighters to take a shot at any ground targets. The player with air superiority would have the chance to use ground attack aircraft (having used his surviving fighters to attack enemy attack aircraft before they've gotten to the front). Also, a modern bomber like the B-1b would not appear in the game because they are not well protected and would stay well away from the battlefield. A bomber might come within 1000 km (that's 500 hexes) of a target just long enough to drop a cruise missile and leave. 2.00 ATTACK AIRCRAFT +-----------+ |D4 M20| | | | | | | | | |ATK AIRCRFT| | 4/3 | +-----------+ 2.01 Attack aircraft are the ground hugging planes commonly called "Tank Busters". The U.S. A-10 Warthog is a contemporary example. It would be armed with an auto-cannon, laser guided bombs, and short range, anti-armor missiles. Its survival in the hostile battlefield environment would rely on terrain following radar, allowing the pilot to keep fast and low without flying into trees and other low obstacles. A good pilot might even use a road to fly below the tree line, racing less than half a dozen meters above the pavement. 2.10 Aircraft face toward a hex juncture, the point where two sides intersect. When it moves, it moves into one of the two hexes adjacent to the juncture. 2.11 The firing arc of the aircraft is foreward through the hexes it could move into including the hex that the aircraft is in. Aircraft can only fire at enemy units within this arc. 2.12 An aircraft is allowed to change its facing one juncture 5 times during its movement, i.e. when an aircraft is moving at full speed it cold move 4 hexes, turn 1 juncture, move 4 more, turn, and so on. Aircraft must have at leas one movement between every other turn. 2.20 Aircraft have a minimum speed of 5. 2.30 Aircraft can ignore terrain and stacking rules. (exception to terrain rules: see section 6.32) They cannot participate in overrun attacks. 2.40 Aircraft can fire at any one time during the movement phase. They may also interrupt their movement so that ground units may move so as to combine attack strengths, compleating their movements when GEVs have their second movement. 2.50 Aircraft that are disabled subtract 5 movement points from their top speed permanently, effective the beginning of the next turn. and may not fire for the rest of the current and next turn. 2.51 A disabled aircraft has a 1 in 6 chance of having to make a forced landing at the end of their movement. Aircraft forced down in this manner may make a Kamikazi attack on a unit if the aircraft can end its movement in the same hex as the unit being attacked. This attack would have no effect on infantry (unless it is riding on/in a unit), destroy an armor unit, do 2d6 of damage against a building, and attack a OGRE weapon or tread with 2d6 of attack strength. An aircraft disabled a second time has a 2 in 6 chance of crashing, a third time a 3 in 6 chance, and so on. 2.60 Cruise missile shockwaves and missiles have twice their attack strength against aircraft. 2.70 Each aircraft is worth 3 armor units and 18 victory points. 3.00 ATTACK HELICOPTERS +-----------+ |D3 M10| | | | | | | | | |ATK COPTER | | 4/3 | +-----------+ 3.01 Attack helicopters, like the contemporary U.S. AH-64 Apache or the older Huey Cobra, would be armed with guns and missiles, much like the attack aircraft. Their advantage over their faster flying counterparts would be their greater maneuverability. In appearance, the attack helicopter may look as helicopters of today or may be constructed like flying saucers, the greater wing area affording a higher speed at the cost of maneuverability. An attack aircraft could be made more like a helicopter by giving it directional exhaust like the Brittish Harrier, sacrificing speed for greater maneuverability. Players are encouraged to experiment with different designs, keeping the composite between the capabilities of the helicopter and the aircraft. 3.10 Helicopters are like other units in that they can move and fire in any direction. Like aircraft, helicopters are attacked by double-strength shockwave and missile attacks and may fire at any one time during their movement. Unlike aircraft they do not have a minimum speed. 3.20 If a helicopter is disabled, it is considered to have been forced to land. If it lands in a clear hex (hexes with buildings not in towns, laser towers, and even enemy hexes of this type, are consdered clear), it is disabled for an extra turn on a roll of 1-2. If it lands in a town, swamp, or forest it is permanantly disabled on 1-2 and disabled an extra turn on 3-4. If it is forced down over water, it will survive disabled on a roll of 6, otherwise it is instantly destroyed. 3.30 Helicopters can participate in overrun attacks. Entering an enemy occupied hex does not instantly initate an overrun attack. The choice of whether or not to enter into an overrun attack is up to the owner of the helicopter. Disabled helicopters are instantly overrun. 3.40 Each helicopter is worth 2 armor units and 12 victory points. 4.00 ASSAULT HELICOPTERS +-----------+ |D3 M9| | | | | | | | | |ASLT COPTER| | 3/3 | +-----------+ 4.01 Assault helicopters are like their more agile attack counterparts except that they are larger, slower, and more heavily armored. Their greater size allows them to not only carry the guns and missiles but to carry troops as well. The prime contemporary example is the Soviet MiL-24 Hind. This is the Air Cavalry. 4.10 Assault helicopters can carry 2 squads of infantry. To pick up or drop off infantry, the helicopter must land and remain stationary, expending 3 movement points per squad, before it moves on. A helicopter caught by enemy fire while loading or unloading has a defensive value of one. 4.11 When in the helicopter infantry is treated as if it were in a truck, that is, they cannot fire from inside the helicopter and if the helicopter is destroyed, the infantry dies with it. 4.12 For infantry, getting into or out of the helicopter requires 1 movement point. The use of movement points in getting into and out of the helicopter allows the helicopter to pick up and drop of infantry during the same movement. 4.20 Helicopters can only land in clear hexes. A helicopter could drop marine infantry into a water hex with no penalties but picking them up from a water hex requires 5 movement points expended per squad. See section 3.20 for those hexes that are considered clear. 5.00 ANTI-AIRCRAFT +-----------+ +-----------+ |D2 M1| |D1 M0| | | | | Mobile AA | | Heavy AA | | | | | | | | | | | MOBILE AA | |AA BATTERY | | 6/5 | | 8/6 | +-----------+ +-----------+ 5.10 Heavy AA batteries cannot attack ground units. Mobile AA can attack ground units at 3/3 but then cannot fire at any aircraft during his opponant's next movement phase (see section 6). 5.20 Each AA unit is worth 1 armor unit and 6 victory points. 6.00 DEDICATED ANTI-AIRCRAFT ROLE 6.01 When a unit is acting in dedicated AA mode, it acts much like a laser vs. a cruise missile, that is, if the aircraft enters the unit's range at any time during its movement phase, the unit gets one attack. 6.10 Any other unit can be designated as an AA unit in the following manner: 6.11 At the beginning of the units movement phase, the player states his intention to dedicate the unit as anti-aircraft. Dedicating AA mode has no effect on movement or defense values (exceptions: mobile AA units suffer the penalty mentioned in section 5.10 and also see section 6.20) 6.12 The unit is not allowed to fire on anything during its attack phase. 6.13 During his opponant's movement phase the designated AA unit can fire on any aircraft, helicopter, or cruise missile that enters its range. When firing on aircraft or helicopters the unit uses its normal attack strength with the exception of howitzers which attack at 1/2 strength. Dedicated AA units fire on cruise missiles with the same odds as lasers. 6.20 Designated AA units, excluding infantry, receive a 1 defensive point bonus when defending against missile or howitzer attacks >from further away than half the weapon's range. For example, a howitzer has a range of 8 and is firing on a GEV in AA mode at a range of 6. Since the GEV is already searching the skys for something to shoot, there is a chance for the GEV to see te artillery shell arcing through the air and begin shooting at it. It may even be able to destroy the shell before impact. The GEV normally has a defensive strength of 2, in this special case it is raised to 3. 6.30 To return a unit to normal mode the player states his intention at the end of his turn. The unit cannot fire in AA mode during his opponants movement phase, however, it still retains the 1 point defensive bonus against missiles and artillery. In the players next turn the unit will act normally. This procedure applies to using the mobile AA in a non-AA role. 6.31 Units not in AA mode can attack aircraft as they would any other unit during their attack phase, but at 1/2 their normal attack strength. Artillery not in AA mode fire at 1/4 their normal strength. 6.32 Any unit firing at an aircraft flying low and adjacent to a forest hex has only 3/4 of its regular attack strength (1/4 if not in AA mode, artillery attack strength reduced to 1). If the aircraft is behind a town hex or flying along a road below the tree line, the attacker's strength is halved (if not in AA mode attack strength reduced to 1, artillery cannot fire). Aircraft flying low behind obstacles cannot be fired upon by lasers. Aircraft popping-up to fire over an obstacle are clear targets. 6.40 Ogre weapons are designated anti-aircraft roles in the same way except that individual missiles cannot be designated separately, that is, the Ogre cannot designate 3 missiles as AA and leave 5 in normal mode. All must be either one or the other. However, missile racks can be designated separately. 7.00 SOURCES "The OGRE Book", Steve Jackson Games, 1982 "Soviet Military Power 1986 & 1987", U.S. Department of Defense 'Gallery of USAF Weapons', "Air Force Magazine", May 1984 'Gallery of Soviet Aerospace Weapons', "Air Force Magazine", March 1984 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ These rules have not been fuly playtested so, OGRE/GEV players out there, play this and submit your changes, corrections, additions, questions, comments, experiences, and spelling mistakes to the newsgroup. (If you want to E-Mail to me don't expect an answer through mail, the system here is really fouled up) Some things to look at: 1: Do the cost values of the units unbalance the game one way or the other? If so, what should they be? 2: Should OGREs be able to designate missiles AA on ground attack separately? Guidance technology seems to say yes but does that unbalance the game at all? If so, how much? 3: The high vulnerability of aircraft to dedicated AA units seems to suggest the "Combined Arms" approach. Aircraft should never be used alone. Ground targets should be used to keep the enemy from aiming everything he's got at the aircraft. 4: What happens when both sides have aircraft and how ugly does it get? 5: Are there people in the Pittsburgh area willing to play OGRE/GEV on the Pitt campus on weekends? How about other games like Shogun, 6th Fleet, Harpoon, Illuminati (something I havn't played yet, but would like to try), Axis and Allies, Ace of Aces, Star Trek RPG ship combat, and other things? many thanks, in advance..... Twilight ___ [Waterloo was homebrew: mostly the two Mk III's attack vs Mk III defending from Ogre, on the GEV map with a few extra armor units on defense to make up for a "scattered" deployment. -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@fly2.berkeley.edu SFB Tyrant