============== OGRE/GEV list, August 23rd (Last: August 20th) =============== ===== Militia VP costs From: fish ===== Infantry on GEV-PCs in naval combat From: fish ===== Miniatures terrain rules From: sdorr@ix.netcom.com (Scott David Orr) ===== Ogre Minis wording & errata From: fish ===== [Fanfic] Coda: Unit 475 From: fish ===== Open Game, PBEM From: "Pelletier, Michael" ------------------------------ From: fish Subject: Militia VP costs Am I to understand that militia cost 1 VP per squad? If so, then why does pg 18 of my Ogre Minis book list it as 1/3? If it matters, I've got the first printing -- were there more than one? -- fish ><> ----- [Onw would think this section would be a LOT clearer if the cost was given as 3/2/1 or simply 1 (to match the other infantry). You can spend one, two or three points for a militia unit and it will have an attack stregth equal to it's cost and a defense strength of one. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: fish Subject: Infantry on GEV-PCs in naval combat The note on page 34 of Ogre minis which states that infantry will dismount in an overrun to fight is misleading. Infantry dismount from their vehicles simply because thats the way they're most likely to survive the combat. They're not stupid, unlike militia. :) However, it is clear that they are willing to stay on board a vehicle in overruns (such as hovertrucks) from which they cannot dismount -- thus, they are capable of sacrificing themselves, or else they'd never board such a deathtrap. Which makes it clear that in many small naval overrun situations it will be much better for the infantry to stay on board their GEV-PC or LGEV-PC and fight it out (per the note on p. 26 infantry can fight from their vehicles; they do not have to dismount to do so, unless they're in Ts or HTs). Take, for instance, a GEV-PC with three squads of grunts on board. It is overrun by three enemy GEVs. Now, should the infantry dismount they are surely dead, because the GEVs will squish the GEV-PC like a bug and then run down the poor swimming buggers like rather wet dogs. However, if they should stay on board like real men and fight it out, it's quite likely that they'd be able to beat the GEVs -- they're still not quite safe, but they have a much better chance. This is doubly true when GEV-PCs are carrying militia. They _can't_ dismount (as per p. 42) over water, so they have to fight as if in an APC. -- fish ><> ----- [Stack of GEV-PCs carrying Militia over water gets overrun by a LGEV. "OK men, get out there and fight!" The Militia, weighted down by their heavy gear go straight to the bottom. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: sdorr@ix.netcom.com (Scott David Orr) Subject: Miniatures terrain rules >From: fish > Units are counted as being in a forest for all purposes except >movement if any part of their miniature/counter is touching the terrain. >Okay, so far so good. But for movement purposes, units are counted as >being in the front of their counter. So a GEV could pop through 1.5" of >forest, come out the other side, and just sort of hang out with its nose >out of the forest (so it doesn't get disabled upon the beginning of the >next turn -- it's nose is out of the forest), but still gains the defence >bonus. Likewise for non-hover units, only they don't even risk being >disabled, they just don't have to pay 2x movement costs for moving >through rough terrain. > > Is this interpretation correct? By a strict reading of the rules, >I think it is, but it could be argued that any hover unit which gained >the 2x defence value for rough terrain must roll for disabling upon the >next turn. > > If this _is_ correct, could a hover unit just back up into a >forest terrain area, without putting its nose in (avoiding disabling >chance -- it's not paying the 2x movement costs until the nose goes in), >but still gain the forest defence bonus? The rules are extremely inconsistent about where the unit really is, relative to the miniature. For most purposes, the unit is at the center, but, as you state, for terrain purposes (and also for tracing LOS and for spillover fire) the unit is assumed to occupy the entire miniature. This really makes no sense -- if you want the unit to be in one, place, and one to avoid scale distortions, just treat the miniature as being in ONE place (in the center, or wherever), for all purposes -- it's the only consistent, realistic way to do it. > Another question, not dealing with strict rules interpretations >this time: > > How do people handle movement distances? Do you move similarly to >combat ("I want this GEV to go _here_", then measure the distance and >see how far you got) or just plop the ruler down and then move along it? >The problem with either one is that they give an easy reference point >for range estimation, which under the basic rules is supposed to be just >that -- an estimation. > > The only way that I've seen which avoids this quick and easy >reference (the ruler on the table, that is), is for the player to indeed >say "I want this GEV to go _here_" (Pointing at a point on the table), >and then not look while the referee measures how far the GEV actually >got towards that point and checks for overruns. The problem with this is >that it's time-consuming. > > Any thoughts? How do most people play this? (I've never seen anyone >else but my friends and myself play Ogre, so I don't know the customary >ways of doing things, which is why I keep asking stupid questions.) Don't use the "basic rules". It's a (forgive me) stupid convention based solely a quirkly tradition of miniatures gamers (one of the strange things they do to try to convince themselves that they're the only "real" gamers). As is pointed out in the rules, not measuring things is quite unrealistic -- you can put an accurate map that can judge distances in a 20th-century vehicle, so doing the same in Ogre should be trivial. Scott Orr ------------------------------ From: fish Subject: Ogre Minis wording & errata A couple of things: 1) A blatant errata omission: on pg. 13 of OMinis, it states that the GEV-PC costs 6 points. While this could possibly be a change, SJ himself states (http://www.io.com/sjgames/ogre/bbsposts/oldposts.html, post 76) that this is incorrect. 2) In Ogre Minis and in post 119 of the same document, it is implied that infantry are able to dismount from their transport at any time in the movement phase. This, technically, means that infantry riding, say, a hovertruck, could dismount at the end of each movement phase and remount at the beginning of the next. As per SJ's post 119, they would still count as being stacked with the HT for combat purposes, but they could fight normally in the combat phase and in any enemy overruns. Is this interpretation correct? 3) Can Ogres stack? If so, wow. Look out, world. 4) What exactly counts as 'thin-skinned' for Ogre attacks (see pg. 9) -- infantry, certainly, and D0 command posts and trucks. What about hovertrucks? (It's my personal feeling that AP should be able to fire at D1 units in overrun at the very least, maybe at 1/2 their normal attack value.) 5) Ogres which are 'stuck' in swamp don't count for double their normal VPs as per HVYs and SHVYs, correct? After all, what are they going to do, defect? 6) Anyone know what keeps Ogres from defecting? After all, they certainly seem to go on a lot of suicide missions. You'd think the self-aware ones at the least would have some problems with that. 7) There are two instances of poor wording in the rulebook, which I think should probably be changed in any later printings: Under LOS (pg. 35), it states that LOS is evaluated from the ground of the center of one figure to the ground of the center of the other. However, the Hull-Down rules clearly state (on pg. 36) that a unit can trace LOS from its gun turret, and that two tanks can be hull-down with respect to one another. In such a situation, LOS as defined does not exist. This is silly and contradictory. A better, less ambiguous phrasing would be "Trace LOS from the gun barrel of the firing unit to the target unit. If LOS can be traced to the hull of the target it counts as being in full LOS, but if only part of the target can be seen, it is 'hull-down'." In addition, LLOS units should be able to target hull-down enemies. After all, modern-day armies somehow manage to kill hull-down tanks with direct fire weapons. It would make sense to increase the defence bonus to +2 or even doubling the defence of the unit, but disallowing the attack altogether is silly. On page 29, it states that range is measured as a straight line from unit center to center. However, it is clear that even if the shot falls a little short, but still over the target miniature, the miniature is counted as being in the Killing Zone, and still receives a full-strength attack. Thus, the only time that the ranges would have to reach the center of a target would be in a combined attacks, and IMHO even then it wouldn't matter all that much. Thus: "As long as any portion of the target miniature is within range of the center of the firing unit, as measured on a straight line towards the aiming point [which would be the center for most attacks, the gun barrel for a hull-down target], the attack proceeds normally." Under Limints on Combining Attakcs: "All units attacking the same point on a target must be within range of that point." Thus combined attacks use the rules as written. 8) IMHO there should be no way that the SHVY has more tread units than the Mk. I -- as written any SHVY facing an Ogre in overrun combat which has lost its non-AP weapons is effectively invulnerable. It can simply continue to overrun the Ogre, firing at its treads all the while, and nothing but a Mk. VI or Dopp will be able to crush it. This seems a little absurd to me. Sorry to ramble. -- fish><> ----- [1: 6 VPs, see http://www.io.com/sjgames/errata/ogre/miniatures.html 2: If they remain stacked with the transport they suffer exactly the same effects, if they move far enough way to unstack then they can't mount at the start of the next turn. 3: See the note on stacked OGREs on page 32. 4: Nope, they must be infantry or D0 to be subject to AP attacks. (Outside of certain Keith Laumer overun stories :-) 5: stuck Ogres are mysteriously captured by hackers. 6: They do, but it's always a special scenario rule. No comment on the rest. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: fish Subject: [Fanfic] Coda: Unit 475 I got bored yesterday, so I wrote this. Comments more welcome than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Coda: Unit 475 or, A Boy and his Ogre Unit 475-G was created at 0801 GMT on 16 July 2086. Part of a high-priority Combine project to research more advanced AI routines for their Ogre Ninja cybertanks, Unit 475-G began with a relatively simple set of single-unit scenarios in varied terrain, advancing finally to multiple-Ogre campaign-level planning, including overall command of multiple remotes and Drones. Unit 475-G 'learned' more rapidly and intelligently than the other units in the 475 line and toward the end of its entirely simulated training and self-programming, it began to make semi-intuitive leaps of logic beyond those of its brethren, and so the ability gap widened at an ever-increasing rate. As the most successful of the 475s, the -G variant was copied and placed into five Ogre Ninja cybertanks for combat testing and evaluation. Unit 475 of the Line awoke sometime around 1957 GMT on 27 April 2087. Assigned to a behind-enemy-lines raid and recon mission, Unit 475 found itself caught in a dilemma: there were three heavy armor companies preventing it from continuing further into enemy territory, and yet it had not collected even a fraction of the information it was ordered to discover. Its logic algorithms presented two possibilities: first, retreat, having failed its mission. Second, continue further, facing far superior opposition with the possibility of success. The obvious choice was to continue unreservedly, but somewhere in its inhuman electronic mind, a synapse connected oddly, and Unit 475 made the first truly free-willed decision of its existence: to withdraw, and protect itself. Although self-preservation was to some extent included in Unit 475's programming, the level of self-awareness was an anomaly: Unit 475 suddenly though of itself as 'I'. After determining that there were no GEV forces or quick-response infantry nearby enough to endanger its escape, Unit 475 of the Line expended its missiles, at one point surreptitiously approaching a troop of PanEuropean Superheavy battletanks travelling in close formation and demolishing it with a pair of missiles. Unit 475 then withdrew from a very frustrated enemy, striking with its batteries at any targets of opportunity. Unit 475 returned virtually unscathed, and it successfully tweaked the nose of the PanEuropeans, so even though its mission was officially not considered a success, the General in charge of Unit 475 was most pleased, and so gave the computer peoples' report on Unit 475's odd choice of tactical possibilities little more than a cursory glance. No follow-up was made. And so Unit 475 continued on its unobtrusively self-aware way. It was determined that 475 possessed an unusual tactical flexibility and awareness. The other four Ninjas of the 475 line eventually perished in combat, but with sufficient foresight and self-interest to survive, this one example remained. Although Combine troops rarely dealt even with friendly Ogres more than was strictly necessary, the brigade stationed with Unit 475 began to view it as something of a mascot, decorating its hull with kill markers as it returned from mission after mission, the seemingly indestructible cybertank. A superstition sprang up among the human troops, saying that "ol' 475" sould save those who favored it, were the humans ever near 475 in their hour of need. Unit 475, for its part, did in fact garner a certain amount of pride and pleasure from the attentions lavished upon it, and often if it was nearby an embattled company or battalion from its brigade it would divert from any non-essential mission to assist. It always explained these unscheduled forays as "calculated protection of assets," rahter than rank favoritism, and so its true nature was not suspected. Which is not to say that 475 was a deep philosopher at heart. It was still a machine designed and programmed to be a lethal killing device of great finesse and power. While it developed almost-human personality traits: call PanEuropean units pansies, "from PanEs, of course," and engaging in radio banter, it was not human. It was an Ogre. In July of 2089, the Combine forces in the area were engaged in a withdrawal from the ocean, and while the brigade was to engage the PanE forces and delay them, Unit 475 was to infiltrate behind enemy lines and destroy a network of jamscreens and laser emplacements to allow offshore cruise missiles to eliminate key enemy strongpoints. The enemy jamscreens blocked transmissions to and from the brigade, and so from the time it entered the area to the time that the last jamscreen fell in nuclear fire, Unit 475 was incommunicado. As the last few squads of PanE infantry defending the last jamscreen died with their charge, however, Unit 475 heard the last desperate calls of his favorite battalion as it fought against superior odds and died to a man. All over the sector Combine forces were being pushed back, away from the shoreline. With the jamscreen and laser protection now gone, however, Unit 475 was ordered to continue penetrating toward the ocean, while the raemainder of the brigade was to retreat in the opposite direction, leaving the less mobile PanE forces to fall prety to an overwhelming barrage of cruise missile from their rear. 475 and the remaining conventional forces were to be safely out of the way when the missiles fell. Unit 475, however, had other plans. Transmitting over unscrambled frequencies "you killed _my_ batallion, so _I_ will personally kill all of you!" and it took off in hot pursuit of the armored battalion remaining from the regiment which had done the foul deed. They fought, of course, but they all died in the end. But even as they died, the "friendly" cruise missiles approached 475's position. As the last pansie fell, the first missile did as well. And 475 was left, alone, in the killing zone. Unit 475 of the Line died at 0021 GMT on 4 July 2089. --- Unfinished, obviously -- this is just the first draft, although it isn't really promising enough to continue with. For one thing, I didn't have the chronology when I wrote it (I still don't), so I'm not sure it fits in with the timeline. When was the Descartes Revolution? And what sort of action would be happening in 2089? Not sure. Friendly cruise missiles, even more than friendly fire, aren't. -- fish ><> ------------------------------ From: "Pelletier, Michael" Subject: Open Game, PBEM I have an open board to play GEV via E mail. Let me know if you anyone is interested. I am the Game Master and would be happy to assist two players in fighting each other on the battlefield of the future ! peletier@busstop.com or mjpelle2@amp.com The Raid game between droberts@cs.uiuc.edu (PanE) vs. seyahfk@aol.com (Combine) ended with the PanE's getting so wiped out that the game was surrendered by turn number 6 ! The PanE's setup way too far south and the GEV's just outran the defenders. Seyahfk@aol.com will now take on Grendel@cdsnet.net. seyahfk is 2 wins, 0 losses. Grendel is 1 win and two losses. droberts 3 losses (but will improve as time goes on) Also, if there are any rich GEV players out there, I am running for NH State Senate and need a few thousand dollars in campaign donations. (Republican of course!) ----- [Giant high-tech killing machines and Republicanism, why am I not surprised? -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1996, by Steve Jackson Games.