=============== OGRE/GEV list, Jan 18th. (Last: Jan 16th) =============== ===== About the construction formula From: Alan.Hench@mail.utexas.edu (Alan A. Hench) ===== Re: OGRE/GEV List, Jan 16th. From: sj@io.com (Steve Jackson) ------------------------------ To: "Henry J. Cobb" From: Alan.Hench@mail.utexas.edu (Alan A. Hench) Subject: About the construction formula >And I might even get around to working on that blasted construction >formula. Not sure what you mean by a construction formula, but you may have in mind something similar to what I worked up ages ago. To calculate the "cost" of a unit, multiply the Attack by Range, Move by Defense, and add the two. If the unit has a two-tiered move like a GEV, the second Move value is added to Range. This is because the second move allows the unit to end up farther away from the target after firing. If the attack is a single shot, like an Ogre missile, then the (Attack*Range) value is divided by 10. If a value is 0, then treat it as 0.5 within the calculation. Round the final result if necessary. HVY = A:4, R:2, M:3, D:3 = (4*2)+(3*3) = 17 MSL = A:3, R:4, M:2, D:2 = (3*4)+(2*2) = 16 GEV = A:2, R:2, M:4/3, D:2 = (2*(2+3))+(4*2) = 18 To convert this cost to armor units, divide by 17. I came up with this formula after seeing the one written up for the old Space Gamer. I think this method is much simpler, and more extensible. I have used the same basic calculation in figuring up the total costs for Ogres. The results, converted to armor units, were always very close to the listed armor unit cost of Ogres. One test of a formula is to see how it works with new units. If the existing formula can give appropriate values for new units, that would suggest the formula is sound. When Shockwave came out, most of the new units came out just right without any modifications to the formula. I did have to come up with a different accounting for cruise missiles, however :). >Missile GEV (Cub) >Attack: 2 Range: 6 inches (3 hexes) Defense: 2 >Move: 6"/4" (3/2 hexes) Move Mode: GEV >Size: 3 Points: 6 (one "armor unit") MGEV = A:2, R:3, M:3/2, D:2 = (2*(3+2))+(3*2) = 16 Based on my formula, I'd say that the Missile GEV should be worth one armor unit, just as given, but with unlimited shots. To get the value in the current Points measure, it looks like you might divide by 3. Of course, that would give a point value of 5, not 6, but that's pretty close. If it were to have a single shot, the cost would be: (2*(3+2))/10+(3*2) = 7 or 1/3 an armor unit. Each additional shot available for a single vehicle would add another (2*(3+2))/10, or 1 point to the cost. To have the limited shot Missile GEV come out at 1/2 an armor unit, its cost should be about 8.5, so that would allow it 3 shots, for a final cost of 9. An important question is whether a limited shot Missile GEV is better seen as a full armor unit, or half an armor unit. If it is a full armor unit, then how many armor units would an unlimited shot Missile GEV be worth? >All ORGE-related items Copyright (c) 1996, by Steve Jackson Games. ^^^^ BTW, you might want to fix that typo. ----- [Thanks. Now let me smooth out those numbers a bit for you. (WARNING: everything that follows is in OGRE-Minis terms, divide through by 2"/hex to get back to the "real" game.) Let's think of the "value" of a unit being given by the area of two rectangles. The first rectangle has a width of the "strike range" (first move plus range) times the height of the units attack strength, this is the "strike cost". The second rectangle has a width of the "withdraw range" (second move plus range) times the height of the units defense strength, this is the "withdraw cost". Now, a 1-1 attack will leave the defender unable to reply twice as often as not, so let's multiply the "withdraw cost" by two. So a missile tank has a cost of atk 3 * (range 8" + move 4") + 2 * def 2 * (range 8") = 36 + 32 = 68 Divided by 12 this leaves a total cost of 5.67 VPs. Some units are just better at cutting across the map than Missile Tanks, GEVs can get the "river bonus" twice per turn while Heavy Tanks move over forests with ease. So Let's give a unit with a movement mode of "GEV" a multiplier of one and a sixth to each of it's movement factors, and a unit with a movement mode of "Heavy" a multiplier of one and a third. So a GEV has a cost of atk 2 * (range 4" + move 8" * 7/6) + 2 * def 2 * (range 4" + move 6" * 7/6) = 26.7 + 44 = 70.7 or 5.89 VPs. Continuing through several other units we get: Unit Expected Actual Ratio Misl Tnk 6.00 5.67 1.06 GEV 6.00 5.89 1.02 LGEV 3.00 2.95 1.02 Heavy Tnk 6.00 6.00 1.00 Lt Tnk 3.00 3.00 1.00 MHWZ 12.00 11.00 1.09 HWZ 12.00 10.67 1.13 LHWZ 6.00 5.83 1.03 Cobb-CUB 6.00 5.72 1.05 And only one class of units seems to be more than 5% off, the missile throwers, but if you remember from my "Forwards Observers" article, it is exactly the missile throwers that get a range boost from the Forwards Observers, so let's add in half the boosted range (in inches) in percentiles as a bonus to the total price tag of these units. The Missile Tank has a boosted range of 12", and so it gets a Six percent increase in it's total price tag. (My Cub also gets a boosted range of 12", and so it also gets its price tag multiplied by 1.06) Unit Expected Actual Ratio Misl Tnk 6.00 6.01 1.00 GEV 6.00 5.89 1.02 LGEV 3.00 2.95 1.02 Heavy Tnk 6.00 6.00 1.00 Lt Tnk 3.00 3.00 1.00 MHWZ 12.00 11.99 1.00 HWZ 12.00 11.95 1.00 LHWZ 6.00 6.24 0.96 Cobb-CUB 6.00 6.06 0.99 Only the Light Howitzer is off by four percent, and I've always thought that it was an excellent infantry support weapon (even without the boost). Naturally, as a mathematician, I'm expected to cook my numbers much better than that, but I'm far too lazy to bother. -HJC] ------------------------------ To: "Henry J. Cobb" From: sj@io.com (Steve Jackson) Subject: Re: OGRE/GEV List, Jan 16th. Rock-paper-scissors - cool. Short stories - I don't mind seeing them there if you don't, and if we really like them, well, wider distribution is always possible. Steve Jackson, sj@io.com - this will do till I fix my .sig file . . . ----- [Well, that seems to be settled then. Send 'em in. -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1996, by Steve Jackson Games.