=============== OGRE/GEV list, Jan 26th (Last: Jan 25th) =============== ===== Missiles and FO From: k.potter2@genie.com ===== Hovertruck carrying capacity. From: sj@io.com (Steve Jackson) ===== Chinese landships and railguns? From: MCCLURE@skynet.litc.lockheed.com ===== Concerning the camo. From: panzer@Okway.okstate.edu (Peter Von Groote) ------------------------------ From: k.potter2@genie.com To: hcobb@io.com Subject: Missiles and FO Hey everyone. This is a cool mailing list; I'm really enjoying all the stuff flying around. On Missile Tanks:I do like the extended range/FO rule... It really feels right for the Ogre universe, and encourages the use of combined arms, which is a good thing. I agree with Richard that keeping track of ammo for Missile GEV's is a little more trouble than it's worth (especially for a game like Ogre). I also don't like limiting their use to MI units... One of the things I like about playing Ogre/GEV is experimenting with different force compositions, and I want the freedom to do so. Finally, I'd like to see them play by the same FO rule as everyone else. It seems to me that if the engineers could give the capability for a 100% range extension to the missile tank, they'd do it, and again, too many special rules for individual kinds of units is very un-Ogre. Having just said that, I'll go ahead suggest another special rule for the Missile GEV : If you need to penalize them somehow, why not say that they have to give up one of their movement phases (either before or after firing) in order to attack? This would represent the vehicle going to ground for a minute to get its shot off. Again, I'll go back to the quote that was pulled a few mailings back: >"...simply because large weapons where not only inaccurate when fired >from the ground effect platform, but tended to throw the vehicle out of >control." A tracked missile tank doesn't have to worry about this--it's already on the ground--but a hovercraft has to park to minimize the effects of the recoil from the attack & to give the fire control computer a stable point of origin to fire the salvo from. And while the fans will be idling while this is going on, spooling back up and getting the air cushion reestablished eats a phase of movement. Of course, I've always understood that missile and rocket attacks have little or no recoil in Real Life, but it might work as a game-balancing rule. Given this case, the battlefield commander with missile GEV's at his disposal can either run them up and loose off an attack (in the offense) or hold them still, let the enemy come up, fire a salvo, and run away (in the defense). He can also do neither and have a fast-moving mobile reserve (especially if he uses roads or water) and use it to exploit breakthroughs or counter enemy thrusts. I like the idea of a Missile GEV. I think it would exist given the technology of the Ogre universe. If nothing else, it just needs to be made more expensive and therefore harder to come by... regards, --Keith P.S. On camouflage: I prefer the look of cammo-painted tanks. I get around losing them on my terrain by choosing two colors for the cammo pattern which contrast with each other sharply (ie dark green and light tan). This insures that the tank does stand out, as one of those colors is always going to contrast with the surrounding terrain, but at the same time it doesn't look bright yellow (and yes, Henry, black & white cow cammo would represent the extreme of this approach ). Of course, it's all up to you--do what you think looks best. The Ogre universe was deliberately written to accommodate either. --KJP ----- [If you look at any generation of my formula, you'll see that by changing a 2/2 D2 M4/3 unit into a 2/3 D2 M3/2 unit, I simply shift some sub-terms around without changing the two partial sums or the overall result. (Except now, I'm multiplying movement instead of adding in a movement modifier, so there is some slight effect). OGRE has always been very conservative, hard science fiction. Graphite covered steel balls have survived very close nuclear explosions and if the current trends continue, 80 years from now computers will be one trillion times faster than today. (2^10 ~= 10^3 and computer power doubles in less than two years, in spite of the skeptics) SJG is getting flamed in absentia on rec.games.board for allegedly not testing out all the side effects of the Car Wars design rules. I really don't want to see that happen to OGRE, so I make sure that everything I propose fits in three criteria: It must be play balanced, and not overly complex. It must fit in with the other technologies shown. (There aren't microscopic supergenius robots, therefore something very nasty happens to either the microchip or to AI sometime in the next few decades, so be it.) And it must have strong historical precedent. For the missile armed units, there are two kinds: The unboosted missiles of the Missile Tank and HW-Squads (who can fire without slowing down their transport, see the Jan 10th issue) and the accelerated tubes of the Howitzers, who have greater than eight inch range. The problem with a Missile GEV that makes an attack three at eight inches and then retreats at least four inches is that no matter how many heavy tanks you can buy for the cost, it can kill them all without once coming under attack. (on open ground) So, I gotta limit the range to six inches at most, but how does a Missile Tank track targets at eight inches (and further with the Howitzers), while the Heavy Tank doesn't even have the range of an Abrams? The answer is chain targeting, you put another sensor platform (on the tips of your missiles) closer to the target to adjust your fire. If you launch more rapidly you reach a little further, less rapidly and your reach is not so great. (This explains the limited range of the LHWZ vs the HWZ, but please Steve, give me a break on the size of the LHWZ, it's twice the size of a missile tank.) And lastly, traditionally the military has accepted a limited range on mobile fire support deployed forwards with the troops, so perhaps it's best to take the Cub at six inches unboosted range, nine inches with FO support. (With this change, and a tiny adjustment to the GEV movement modifier, all of the prices on the new Cobb formula match what Mr Jackson says they are to three decimal places, except the LHWZ. (Maybe you shouldn't adjust it's size down to three...) Everybody trusts my cooked numbers, right?) -HJC] ------------------------------ To: "Henry J. Cobb" From: sj@io.com (Steve Jackson) Subject: Hovertruck carrying capacity. > Steve, can Hovertrucks carry three squads of Militia? (I'm finding >it very difficult to move my Chinese Sacrificial Militia Battalion at >the current rate of two-per). I think that is reasonable; if an unenclosed GEV-PC can carry 4/3 the militia that it can battlesuits, a truck ought to be able to carry 3/2. I'm making that an official modification. Of course, if the Chinese make heavy enough use of militia, they may very well have a specially designed RBHT (real big hovertruck) unit. Steve Jackson, sj@io.com - this will do till I fix my .sig file . . . ----- [Sorry, I guess I didn't state the background to that one clearly enough, want I meant to inquire is if the Hovertruck and the APC had the same carrying capacity. (at 2 inf / 3 mil each) Given that to be the case I figure the capacities of various units to be: Unit Storage Points Notes Truck 4 APC 6 HoverTruck 6 GEV-PC 3 Stores only, no personnel or vehicles in these lockers. These are the internal capacity of these units, other units (including the GEV-PCs) can carry infantry, but not stores on the outside. Each squad of Inf takes 3 SPs to ride covered, each squad of Mil takes 2 SPs to hold. Other things to carry: Item Size Per Notes Engr-Charge 1 Enough sapper charges to resupply a CE squad. Missile 1 Reload missiles for a Hwy-weapons squad. I'm assuming that each of these items would cost a point each, and would take a turn of inactivity for the squad to rearm itself. (So a GEV-PC could carry enough stores to rearm it's Engineer or Heavy-Weapons Platoon once, the grunts just ride without firing for a turn to break out the stores, while the GEV-PC makes a hasty retreat from frustrated hostiles) -HJC] ------------------------------ From: MCCLURE@skynet.litc.lockheed.com To: HCOBB@IO.COM Subject: Chinese landships and railguns? Just received the OGRE/GEV list and RMeaden mentioned Chinese landships and railguns. Were these items mentioned in earlier lists (and can be found on the WEB) or are these part of the upcoming "Killing Zone" supplement? Also, what is the expected release date for "Killing Zone" and will it be mass marketed or limited release. Kent ----- [In KZ, apparently mass-marketed. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: panzer@Okway.okstate.edu (Peter Von Groote) Subject: Concerning the camo. To: "Henry J. Cobb" I agree with Steve. I once lost five missile tanks that were in great position on a Mk. V (and subsequently the game) because I forgot they were there. Taught me two lessons: 1) List your units. 2) Camo works! ----- [Since this is a Minis group, I'll provide a link from my web page to any home page with the proud owners scanned 21st century army on it. It's getting a bit cumbersome to send out the entire history to each subscriber, so I'm putting a link to the online archives on my page. A FAQ is needed, but I think I will wait on that and work out a notice with the overworked people at SJG that can be posted monthly to the newsgroups and sent to each subscriber, that covers all of OGRE and not just my list. -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1996, by Steve Jackson Games.