=============== OGRE/GEV list, July 23rd (Last: July 18th) =============== ===== Ogre Design formulas From: garth.getgen@genie.com ===== Computer OGRE From: Steve Hodsdon ===== SJG's WWW From: Steve Hodsdon ===== Roll your own counters... From: Steve Hodsdon ===== New GEV/Ogre ideas From: garth.getgen@genie.com ------------------------------ From: garth.getgen@genie.com Cc: hcobb@io.com Subject: Ogre Design formulas David, Since others may also have the same questions, I hope you don't mind me sending a "cc" of this response to the Ogre/GEV E-mail group. Your first question was in regard to my Ogre Mark VII and Titan designs, and their total weight as computed by Henry Cobb's formula: Please remember that I designed those YEARS ago, long before I ever heard of Henry Cobb (back before I had a "real" computer!!) using the formula out of the Space Gamer magazine issue number 81 dated back in 1988!! Here's how it works: Weapon Spaces Cost Combat Values Comments ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~ Main bttry 3 8 4/3 D4 Secondary 2 4 3/2 D3 D2 version cost 3 AP 1/2 1 1/1 D1 Vs Infantry only Missile (Ext) 1 1 6/5 D3 One-shot weapon Missile Rack 2 6 D4 For Int. Missles Missile (Int) 1/2 1/2 6/5 Stealth Unit 3 See notes. Building OGRE Hull 1> Decide hull size, between 5 and 50, may use half-sizes. 2> Assign movement rating, either 3 or 4 3> Add treads. Speed 3 == 15, 30, 45, 60 or 75; 4 == 20, 40 or 60. Must have at least as many treads as it has Hull Size. Speed 4 Ogres are limited to Size 25 or less. Adding Weapon Systems 1> Add weapons to the hull, with the total spaces not exceeding Hull Size 2> Any combinations are allowed, no max or min or any item (except Stealth) 3> Only ONE Stealth Unit may be added, only on Size 20 or smaller. Internal missiles and Stealth Units are only destroyed when the Ogre is destroyed, they can not be targeted separately. The Stealth Unit causes any attack (expect Infantry overruns) die roll to be modified by -1 due to strong ECM protection. Calculating point value (equivalent armor units) Point Value = ((S+W) * M * T * St) / 4 where: S = Hull Size W = Total Weapons Cost M = Movement factor: rating 3 = 1.0, rating 4 = 1.1 T = tread factor: 15 or 20 = 0.9, 60 = 1.1, 75 = 1.15, rest = 1.0 St = Stealth Unit = 1.5 if present, 1.0 if not. By that method, here's the "stock" Ogres: OGRE SIZE Points Mark I 5 4 Mark II 10 8 Mark III 17 13 Mark IV 24.5 21 Mark V 30 24 =========================== Now, for the second question: Why did I invent the OLCM (Ogre Launch Cruise Missile) as being an internally mounted weapon?? Several reasons. First, logically it makes no sense to hang a nuke on an Ogre unless you did so to protect it until it can be fired. Otherwise, you might as well leave it on the Missile Crawler, right?? I'd have to re-read the articles you mentioned, but I think D3 is still a bit LOW for the defense rating. Perhaps I could be persuaded, via playtest reports, to drop mine from D6 to D4. But I specifically wanted to limit its firing rate to ONE (1) [a whole number less than two and greater than zero] {uno} per turn. I'm not a big fan of nukes in the first place, so I'd like to see them limited to ONE per turn for the player's ENTIRE forces. I remember the first time we seriously used nukes on a four-map game -- nukes were flying EVERY turn for the whole game, with as many as THIRTEEN in the air at one point!!! Never again! Getting two off at once would be bad enough, but I hate the idea of a FatMan shooting a full load of FIVE nukes at once. The one side-effect of using a single launch tube was how to handle killing a OLCM before it could fire. I didn't want them to be totally protected, ala Internal Missles, nor did I want them made unusable by killing the tube, ala Missile Racks. The result was the idea of the "exposed nose", from which the "harmlessly eject damaged/destroyed OLCMs" naturally followed. Let me take another look, perhaps that Zeus model could be doable using the SpaceGamer #81 formula I noted above. And I suddenly have another idea, this one for an all-AP Ogre (if I can come up with a name for it). Garth L. Getgen SSgt USAF ------------------------------ To: "Henry J. Cobb" From: Steve Hodsdon Subject: Computer OGRE >From: garth.getgen@genie.com > [...] >But it got me thinking: how about combining the concept from OMEGA with >OGRE, whereby you have to "program" your Ogres on just how they will >seek out enemy Ogres and destroy them??? I'm working on a design along these lines. It's not for Ogre / GEV per say, however, I don't see why it wouldn't work. I'm taking the basic idea from Rivets and applying it to robotic units in general. Anyone remember Robot Battle on the Apple II? This is my main inspiration! (There _is_ a copy of the game along with an Apple II emulator on the Web. Anyone with the manual tell me how the robot editor works? Oh, there is also a cracked version of Ogre. I've looked at it but it's hard to play.) > [...] >Speaking of that, are there ANY plans at all to re-print the OGRE >computer game or even come up with a G.E.V. computer game??? I have There seems to be some interest, I'll dust off my notes and go back at it. How 'bout some feedback, what should this game include? I'll start off. You'll be able to combine the GEV and Shockwave maps, at least four of them, perhaps even six. All units mentioned in both the board game and the miniature rulebook will be available, (with the ability to add custom units). I'm envisioning a scenario editor that lets you define how the maps are laid out, the goals of the game, and total number of counters allowed, (Total armor points, infantry points along with max number of each unit type). What about options to the basic game? LOS rules, etc. (What about the units mentioned in the Ogre book)? PBeM support? Modem-Modem? ??? >From: David Paulowich > Fifteen years ago I was sitting in a Mathematics Department >lounge with a GEV mapsheet - the one with smaller hexes put out by >Metagaming - and informing a semi-interested audience that the slanted >coordinate system of this map was ideally suited to computer play. It is The slant system works great for the computer. > [...] > These coordinates are taken from METAGAMING's 2nd edition of >OGRE. This is a slanted coordinate system which allows the computer to >calculate the distance between, for example, hex 1615 and hex 2213 as >follows: > >First divide the hex numbers by 100. > >Let X equal INT(16.15) - INT(22.13) = 16 - 22 = -6 > >Let Y equal (FRAC(16.15) - FRAC(22.13)) * 100 = (.15 - .13) * 100 = 2 > >Let DISTANCE = (ABS(X) + ABS(X - Y) + ABS(Y)) / 2 >Then DISTANCE = (6 + 8 + 2)/2 = 16/2 = 8 hexes. > > Note that (X - Y) equals -8, which yields an absolute value of >8, the number in the middle of the above calculation. Also note that A simple way to convert from the offset coordinate system, (OCS), that is printed on the map, to the slant coordinate system, (SCS), is: X(scs) = X(ocs) Y(scs) = Y(ocs) + INT( X(ocs) /2 ) Now, to find the distance between two hexes, all you need is to define a third value, Z, that is X(scs) - Y(scs) + C (any integer constant). So, from (a,b,c) to (d,e,f), we have: dist = MAX( ABS(a - d), ABS(b - e), ABS(c - f) ) >games), I just give free advice to the dedicated people who do. Perhaps Great! :) > Garth Getgen asks for a computer version of GEV in his July 16 >post. Not likely in the near future - see the July 7 post by Steve >Hodson for just one of many problems that can arise in programming >terrain rules into the computer. Right now all I can offer is a computer You need to add "direction" flags to the map structure. These are needed for both the roads and streams. > [...] > [Pity Steve isn't selling (http://www.io.com/sjgames/catalog0/) the >game design book, The OGRE book, Gurps: Prisoner, Battlesuit or GEV >anymore, because there was a nifty article about map layout there. -HJC] I have both the Ogre book and Game Design book, which article do you mean? Ok, another topic... Did Metagaming, at one time, sell the MicroGames in micro boxes? I bought both #4 and #5 (WarpWar and Rivets) from a hobby shop in a box, (for $7.95). The owner says that the entire line was being re-published. The box art is what you'd see on the manual covers, the included manual had no "real" cover. Steve ----- [For both roads and streams, you need to track hexsides, not hexes. This is fairly efficient, as there are only three times as many hexsides as hexes. -HJC] ------------------------------ To: "Henry J. Cobb" From: Steve Hodsdon Subject: SJG's WWW Any one else notice that the Ogre / GEV box game is missing from the online catalog at SJG? I was looking at the assorted links on the Ogre page, (and re-printing them again, new DeskJet!). The rules expansion sets by David Searle look complete. Were there mapsheets and counters designed and submitted to SJG? Where is David Searle today? Same goes for Dave Seagraves, fantastic notes, did he write any more? Steve ------------------------------ To: "Henry J. Cobb" From: Steve Hodsdon Subject: Roll your own counters... >If anyone is interested, I have created a set of counters for the >Aircraft rules posted on the Steve Jackson Ogre webpage. I believe I [...] >didn;t want to get in trouble. But since the Aircraft and the Naval >rules were never printed I have created a set of each. > >If anyone is interested I could re-format them in GIF or JPEG and send >them to Mr. Cobb or Mr. Jackson for posting on the Official Web page. I, for one, would like to see them... Steve ------------------------------ From: garth.getgen@genie.com To: hcobb@IO.COM Subject: New GEV/Ogre ideas These two items came to me while reading a David Drake book ... FUEL-AIR BOMB: The poor man's nuke. This area-effect weapon does a Strength 4 attack on ALL units in the target hex and a Strength 2 attack on ALL units in the adjacent hexes. However, there is a 1/3 chance that it won't detonate properly (ie, due to excess winds or mechanical failure) and it will do a Strength 2 attack on the target hex only. FABs may be delivered by Howitzers or Missle Tanks (one firing per game), specified air units (once added to the game!), Ogres as a replacement to their Missles. FABs cost 9 points (1-1/2 armor units) each. SEEKING MINES (ROBO-BOMBS): These nasty little critters are too small to be seen beyond one hex on the scale used in GEV, thus no counters are required (the owning player must write down its location). They can only be programmed to seek out enemy Armor units (Tanks, GEVs, Howitzers, Trucks, Ogre >>TREADS<< and moble CPs) but not buildings or Infantry. While not as smart as Ogre cyber-brains, Robo-Bombs can tell the difference between various types of units but can not tell one Heavy Tank from another -- thus you can tell it to go attack the first Heavy Tank it finds, or the first Tanks (Heavy, Light, Super, or Missle Tank) it finds, or the first enemy unit, or whatever targeting parameters you want to give it. Fortunately, they ARE smart enough to tell enemy units from friendly ones!! Once programmed, Robo-bombs are released and move at Speed 4 (moving as per a Light Tank) towards the nearest enemy unit it's programmed for. If it moves thru a hex with enemy infantry, they get to fire on it as it passes (ie, Overrun Attack) with their normal strength. No other unit may fire on it. Once it finds its target, it moves into the hex and the target unit gets ONE defensive shot (as well as any infantry that happen to be stacked with the target unit) at the Robo-bomb, which has a defense value of 3. If the Robo- bomb survives, it will move close to the target unit and blow-up as a Strength 4 attack. Except for Infantry riding on the target, no other unit stacked in the hex is affected; ie, there is no Spillover attack. If they don't find a valid target within ten game turns, they will deactivate and return to their starting point. Robo-bombs cost 3 points each and must be programmed and released from a Command Post. Comments??? Garth L. Getgen SSgt USAF P.S> Sudden idea!!! A new OGRE type, "MOTHER" based on a Mark III hull, that carries several Seeking Mines and can program/release them out nearer the FEBA than what a CP could. Send E-mail to: GARTH.GETGEN@GENIE.COM >or< GARTH.GETGEN@WORLDNET.ATT.NET ----- [FAE's: they already DO use nukes, and FAEs are less impressive. Seeking mines: if you could make a tiny robotic unit that could seek out targets on it's own, why not arm missile tanks with them exclusively? (BTW: something like this, as well as upgunned super-heavies is in the works...) -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1996, by Steve Jackson Games.