=============== OGRE/GEV list, July 28th (Last: July 25th) =============== ===== GEV Ideas From: garth.getgen@genie.com From: sdorr@ix.netcom.com (Scott David Orr) ===== Ogre/G.E.V. counter mix? From: garth.getgen@genie.com From: Steve Hodsdon ===== Two PBeM Players needed From: peletier@grolen.com ===== Build a GEV armor unit From: garth.getgen@genie.com ------------------------------ From: garth.getgen@genie.com To: hcobb@io.com Subject: GEV Ideas In taking with David (PAULO@CDNGATEWAY.PE.CA) about my Ogre Launch Cruise Missles, he expressed concern for (1) the defense value I assigned to them and (2) the need to have them mounted internally. Here's a clipping of our conversation: =========================== > Tricky business, figuring out the effect of these new weapons. Always the case in game design, especially when adding to an already published game system like Ogre/GEV. > Seeking Mines make sense in the OGRE universe, but I don't know > if they are strong or weak. Released 12 hexes away from a > Howitzer they could be deadly. How so?? I presume you mean to the Howitzer?? Perhaps I need to restate my original idea (and the revision): these are programmed and released, then move across the map at Movement Rating 4, once they find an enemy unit they're programmed to destroy, they move into its hex and blowup as an Strength 4 attack. They can be seen and fired upon at range one, and also the attacked unit gets a defensive shot as the Robo-Bomb overruns it. They have a Defense rating of 3 and take damage as per Ogres. They can only be programmed to attack enemy ARMOR units, including Ogre TREADS, or mobile Command Posts. {I guess Henry wasn't the only one confused by my original description of these. And I thought I knew how to write plain English.} > How many Cruise Missiles? Try treating each external CM > like a MSL RACK: D4, taking 2 spaces, but costing 12. > Assuming you will mostly encounter long range weapons > (OGRE MSL, HOW, MSL TANK) the D4 is as effective as D6. Yes, but D4 gives Heavy Tanks a 1:1 shot and most other units a 1:2 shot. I was probably thinking to keep the OLCMs protected from all but the heaviest weapons, such as Howitzers. I'm beginning to think you're right: D4 is probably a better game balance. As I said before, I felt that they should be limited on firing rate. But to off-set that, you can't allow the enemy to pick off those that haven't been fired yet because of that limit. The fix was to make them internal, so they're protected. How about this: Internal OLCMs are size 4 and have a limited firing rate, but have a defense rating of D6 for the one in launch position and the rest are totally protected; external OLCMs have an unlimited firing rate but have a defense rating of only D3 (as per standard Ogre Missles) and are size 3. The cost is 12 Victory Points (2 Armor Units) for either type, 24 points in the Ogre Construction Rules from SpaceGamer #81. Garth L. Getgen SSgt USAF ----- To: "Henry J. Cobb" From: sdorr@ix.netcom.com (Scott David Orr) Subject: GEV Ideas >From: garth.getgen@genie.com >RE: Why FAEs instead of Nukes?? > >They make a smaller blast than Nukes, thus less risky to own troops and >towns you're trying to capture/protect. Also cheaper at half the cost >(they should be 6 points, not 9 points, after I doublechecked the cost >of Cruise Missles which are 12 points and not the 18 I thought they >were), and don't require a special unit to fire them. > > [No "special weapons" are required to launch Nukes in this game, >read the comment about infantry weapons on page 3 of OGRE Minis.] No, cruise missiles aren't the only Nukes in the games. With the exception of some weapons used in overruns, ALL the weapons in the game are Nukes -- that's the reason that spillover fire occurs. If you used FAE's, you wouldn't get a smaller version of a cruise missile, but a weak weapon that would affect only a single unit. Scott Orr ------------------------------ From: garth.getgen@genie.com To: hcobb@io.com Subject: OGRE/GEV counter mix > Does anyone know exactly what the counter mixes looked like in each of > the Ogre/G.E.V./Shockwave games? In other words, how many white > (Paneuropean, right?) heavy tanks were available for the human player in > Ogre? How many G.E.V.'s? Howitzers? Etc. You're in luck, for I still have an uncut set of Reinforcement Pack counters!!! But that's only because I ran out of room in the counter tray. OGRE GEV SHOCKWAVE Wt Bk Wt Bk Wt Bk CP 1 1 CP-Alpha 1 1 CP-Beta 1 1 CP-Gamma 1 1 Ogre V/III 5 5 Ogre IV 2 2 Howitzer 6 0 3 3 M-Hwz 4 4 SuperHeavy 8 8 Hvy Tank 10 8 6 6 Msl Tank 10 8 6 4 Lt Tank 10 6 GEV 14 9 8 16 GEV-PC 10 10 L-GEV 16 16 Hvr Truck 12 4 Truck 12 0 Inf 3/2 12 6 8 6 Inf 2/1 8 4 6 4 Marine 3/2 4 4 Marine 2/1 8 8 Msl Crwlr 4 4 Crawler 4 4 Reactor 60 2 1 StrngPt 80 1 1 StrngPt 70 1 1 StrngPt 60 2 2 Laser 40 4 2 Laser 30 4 2 Laser 20 4 2 Tower 20 4 2 Admin 30 3 2 Admin 20 3 2 Admin 10 3 2 Additionally, OGRE has 5 grey Ogre V/III counters, GEV has the Train (white) counters, and Shockwave has 8 BRIDGE OUT, 29 CRATERS and 1 Missile counter. Also, I have a uncut original MetaGames version of OGRE which has a far different counter mix. And >>NO<< it's NOT for sale!!! Garth L. Getgen SSgt USAF ------------------------------ To: "Henry J. Cobb" From: Steve Hodsdon Subject: Ogre/G.E.V. counter mix? I'm not anal retentive but... :) This first table compares the original Ogre, GEV, and the Ogre/GEV Combo (box) counters. Please note, the back of a 3/1 Infantry counter is a 2/1, the 2/1 is 1/1. Also, the Ogres are listed with one side / the other side. Paneuropean Combine White Black Ogre Gev Box | Ogre Gev Box ----------------+---------------- GEV 14 8 14 | 9 16 16 Light Tank -- 10 10 | -- 6 8 Missile Tank 10 6 10 | 8 4 10 Heavy Tank 10 6 10 | 8 6 10 Mobile Howitzer -- 4 4 | -- 4 4 Howitzer 6 3 6 | -- 3 3 3/1 Infantry 12 8 14 | 6 6 10 2/1 Infantry 8 6 10 | 4 4 8 Command Post 1 3 3 | 1 3 3 Mark II/III Ogre -- -- 4 | -- -- 4 Mark IV/V Ogre -- -- 4 | -- -- 4 Mark III/V Ogre 5 -- -- | 5 -- -- Mark IV Ogre -- 2 -- | -- 2 -- Now the Shockwave set. Note, a 1/1 Marine is backed with a 2/1, the 3/1 is also backed with a 2/1. The laser, admin, and strong pt lines show the SP values. Thus, there are 4 White 20SP lasers available. Paneuropean Combine White Black ----------------+---------------- Lt-Gev 16 | 16 MSL Crawler 4 | 4 Crawler 4 | 4 Super Heavy 8 | 8 Marine 1/1 8 | 8 Marine 3/1 4 | 4 Truck 12 | - Hvr Truck 12 | 4 GEV-PC 10 | 10 Reactor 2 | 1 Laser 20/30/40 4 ea. | 2 ea. Tower 4 | 2 Admin 10/20/30 3 ea. | 2 ea. Strong Pt 60/70/80 2/1/1 | 2/1/1 There are also 8 Bridge Out, 1 Missile, and 29 Craters. Let me know if there are any questions about these lists. Steve ------------------------------ From: peletier@grolen.com To: hcobb@slip.net Subject: Two PBeM Players needed By the miracle of cut and paste, I have been able to put together a third GEV map. I am currently Game Mastering two other GEV games and now have a third opening up. Anyone who wants to play by E mail, let me know: peletier@busstop.com the two other games I have going now are basic RAID. In both cases, the attacker seems to be doing quiet well. ------------------------------ From: garth.getgen@genie.com To: hcobb@io.com Subject: Build a GEV armor unit I found another SpaceGamer magazine (#74) buried in my StarFleetBattles stuff, this one has an article with a formula on calculating the point value of a GEV armor unit: VP = [A(R+M1+T)+2D(R+M2+T)]/5.5 Where VP = Victory Points A = Attack Strength R = Attack Range D = Defense Rating M1 = Movement - first phase M2 = Movement - second phase (GEVs) T = Terrain Factor Heavy Tanks -- T=0.5 GEVs -- T=0.3 All others -- T=0 My guess is someone played around with numbers until they reverse engineered something that came "close" to the point values in the published game. However it was done, the formula DOES work quite well. Afterwards, there's some comments from Steve Jackson as to what reasonable limits there should be on a units Attack, Defense, Range and Movement. To sum that up, he suggests that 6 is the practical limit on attack strength and the absolute max is 8; the Super Heavy Tank has maxed out Defense at 4 but he "might" believe a 5; Range should be limited to 4 unless it's a "heavy projectile" with a Attack rating of 5 or more, and 10 is the most he'd accept. As far as Movement goes, speed 4 (GEV 4/3) are about the maximum unless the unit is VERY weak in weapons and/or armor. Garth L. Getgen SSgt USAF ----- [Yes I wonder who this mathematical genus was. There was a further article in the Space Gamer, with accompanying spreadsheet of silly units. If you'd like to see my current attempt at the formula, please look at: http://www.io.com/~hcobb/gev/jan18 -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1996, by Steve Jackson Games.