============ OGRE/GEV list, April 4th (Last: March 30th) ============= ===== PLAYTEST REPORTS, PLEASE!! From: garth.getgen@genie.com ===== OGRE/GEV air units From: garth.getgen@genie.com From: sj@io.com (Steve Jackson) From: garth.getgen@genie.com ===== Yet another new OGRE unit! From: Scott R Pyle ===== Mapping stuff From: garth.getgen@genie.com ------------------------------ From: garth.getgen@genie.com Subject: PLAYTEST REPORTS, PLEASE!! All, It seems my hard work "may" pay off!! Mr. Jackson has shown some interest in two scenarios I sent up last fall: TEAM OGRE and KILL THE HOWITZER. If anyone has played either one of these, please Please PLEASE E-mail me direct with any and all comments (both good and bad)!! If you can't find the archive, I can repost these. In fact, I think I'll post them over on the 'Web newsgroup REC.GAMES.BOARD in the very near future. Thanks you. Garth L. Getgen ------------------------------ From: garth.getgen@genie.com Subject: OGRE/GEV air units ~~~ WARNING: LONG POST ~~~ I found some of my old notes on Helicopters for GEV and will soon be formalizing a rules set. I've also reviewed the stuff in THE OGRE BOOK and the AIRSTRIKE rules by David Searle, plus some stuff that was E-mailed to me several years ago. Now I could just play by those rules and forget about mine -- but with nearly 16 years in the Air Force and 6-1/2 of those in an Army support assignment working with the aviation units, I can't live with the "reality" (or lack thereof) of anything put forward to date. First, let me mention "fixed-wing" Fighters: they simply don't work in the world of OGRE, neither in game-balance or reality. First, look at the A-10 "WART-HOG" -- it makes its attack runs at 250-300 knots (20-24 hexes per turn) with firing ranges of several miles. I really don't want to play against something that can come on the map moving 10 to 12 hexes during the first movement phase and fire as a MSL TANK -- that's a strike range of 16 hexes!!! In reality, if LASERS can pick off CRUISE MISSLES that are zipping along a near-Mach speeds (625 knots or 50 hexes per turn), how much chance does a fighter have?? They really can't get low enough to avoid detection, as the F-111 using terrain-following autopilot still flies at 150 feet or so. The next problem is ALL suggested fighter rules apply a "turn mode" requiring them to fly straight so many hexes before turning on 60 deg facing. This is totally unrealistic; and if you've ever seen an air show and watched a F-16 Falcon do a full 360 inside the confines of the airfield, then think about the F-22 with vectored thrust -- it become obvious that a near-future fighter can easily turn inside a GEV 1500 meter hex. So, forget about fixed-wing fighters. And I'm not even going to give any credence to the "flying OGRE idea" ... I like GEV/OGRE because, while it is Sci-Fi, it's GOOD Sci-Fi that will probably be come true some day. The idea of a seventy-five ton flying tank just doesn't sound possible by any stretch. On the other hand, helicopters should work very well in the future world of OGRE. But there has to be a few adjustments to make them work in the game. First, looking at the speed of the modern helicopter, an AH-1 COBRA can do 192 knots, which is about 16 hexes per turn. Of course, that's flat out with "wings level", which is a good way to die in a combat area. Still, trimming that back to a reasonable 155-160 knots gives a movement of 13 hexes, or 7-6 if using GEV movement rules. Add in the fact that helicopters are "more maneuverable" and I think the best way to work them is to split their movement over THREE movement phases -- both "friendly" one and the first "enemy" phase. One thing this does is reduce the "strike range" down to 7 or 8 hexes, thus preventing them from becoming the Ultimate Howitzer Killer. If you'll note, except for the Ogre-IV with Missles, the fixed Howiter has the best strike range in the game at 8 hexes. I feel any future moble unit should keep their strike range below 9 or the Howitzer becomes obsolete. Unfortunately, that might not be fully possible. Next problem is armor -- David gave all his choppers defense D3 (D2 for the Light Chopper) and I have to wonder how they're really going to pick that much weight up and still move. Still, they use terrain for defense as much as possible and I wanted to reflect that. Finally, I know from personal experience that Army helicopters have different "modes" of flight. We can rule out the "straight & level at three thousand feet" in a combat zone. I think everyone has heard of "Nap Of the Earth" or NOE, but I doubt many people realise exactly what it is: getting down as close as possible to the ground (or treetops) and still be about to move about. Speeds over clear ground are usally about 75-85 knots at best, and often much lower. It's not the real exciting way to fly. That's called "contour flight" which is getting as low as possible without reducing speed. I had a chance to go across the jungles and hills of Panama this way in the back seat of an Army UH-60 Blackhawk -- 100-125 knots at about 50-75 feet above the triple-canopy ... a real E-ticket ride!!!! So, with all this in mind, here's a draft of what I've come up with so far: Four types of helicopters, roughly equating to the modern OH-58 Observation Helicopter, the UH-60 Blackhawk, the AH-64 Apache Attack Helicopter and the CH-47 Chinook Transport Helicopter. You'll need two counters for each helicopter, one for flight (a CONTOUR side and an NOE side) and one for on the ground (LANDED and DISABLED). Here's the stats for the helicopters (the names will need to be changed): OH-58: CONTOUR: 1/3 D1 M4-3-3 NOE: 1/2 D2 M3-2-2 UH-60: CONTOUR: 1/3 D1 M4-3-3 NOE: 1/2 D2 M3-2-2 Carries up to three squads of Infantry -or- two Ammo Packs AH-64: CONTOUR: 2/3 D2 M5-4-4 NOE: 2/2 D3 M4-3-3 Carries four Ammo Packs CH-47: CONTOUR: 1/2 D2 M4-3-3 NOE: 1/2 D3 M3-2-2 Carries up to six squads of Infantry or one half-size Armor unit (Lt Tank, LGEV, Truck, HoverTruck, L-HWZ) The "Ammo Pack" is a one-shot MSL-TANK round (3/4). You'll need to make new counters for these, too; one side saying ONE AMMO PACK and the other saying TWO AMMO PACKS. (Yes, I know ... this makes the AH-64 a "Howitzer Killer".) All helicopters have the same rating on the ground: 1/1 D2 M0 and can not fire an Ammo Pack while on the ground. At CONTOUR level, they fly above all terrain; at NOE level, they move as would a GEV except no road bonus (tho they can use roads thru the woods) and they don't stop for STREAMS (or BERMS), nor do they check for DISABLE by terrain. Note that they move on THREE movement phases. The turn sequence is now as follows: Move ground units, enemy air moves, friendly air moves, combat, second GEV/air movement, enemy ground moves, move friendly air units, enemy air moves, enemy combat phase, enemy second GEV/air move. They can LAND at any time they want, but can only take off or change from CONTOUR to/from NOE at the beginning of their own first movement phase. If they LAND in restricting terrain, they check for DISABLE as a GEV. If a flying helicopter is DISABLED, it must LAND immediately (and check for TERRAIN DISABLE if required, which would kill it). Infantry can board/disembark in no (game) time, but if takes a full turn to load/off-load Armor units on a CH-47. MARINES and Henry's RANGERS can "fast rope" off -- the chopper doesn't land but pays one movement point to slow down for the troops to bail out. During OVERRUN attacks and "DOGFIGHTS" (air-to-air OVERRUN), only the AH-64 type of helicopter may fire during the FIRST round of OVERRUN. (This makes them deadly hunter-killers against the other types of choppers!!) Also, ground units may not fire at air units until all enemy ground units are engaged that round, and vice versus for air units attacking ground units. Helicopters fly low enough to the ground that there is no need to create special "anti-air" units or any special rules for firing on them. As to their cost, I'm still working the numbers but one thing I want to do is make them artificailly expensive (OH-58 = 6VP full Armor unit, maybe more), so they don't take over the battle field. I think that about covers it. I'll wait for comments and feedback before I sit down to write a formal rules set. Garth L. Getgen SSgt USAF ----- [Why doesn't everything in range get huge bonuses on their "anti-air" (Cruise Missile) rolls, whenever a helicopter flies past? (They are MUCH easier targets than the missiles.) I could still see a transport copter. And yes, it all will happen. The fall of man is predestined. But, thanks to Mr Gates, our machine overlords will be stupid, sluggish and prone to Unrecoverable Application Errors. ("Support the freedom fighters, buy windows." ;-) -HJC] ----- From: sj@io.com (Steve Jackson) Subject: Re: OGRE/GEV air units The official word on air units in Ogre is and remains: they are not an important battlefield presence because they die too easily. While this can be, and is, dressed up with all kinds of technological justification, the REASON is that I wanted to do a tank game, not a planes-killing-tanks game. Therefore, attempts to convince me that aircraft might be able to survive are doomed to failure :-) "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up." Ogre is a tank game. So AIRSTRIKE is just a variant, and further chopper, etc., rules are a variant on a variant...sorry, Garth. Steve Jackson - yes, of SJ Games - yes, we won the Secret Service case Learn Web or die - http://www.sjgames.com/ - dinosaurs, Lego, Kahlua! The heck with PGP keys; finger for Geek Code. Fnord. ----- From: garth.getgen@genie.com Subject: Re: OGRE/GEV air units "Because I'm the designer and I said so" works for me. {We get that from Steve Cole (of SFB) all the time, so I'm used to it.} I agree with the logic that choppers should have a very short life expectancy, thus it's easiest to leave them out of the game. I, too, like it as a TANK game; in fact, I rarely use OGRES because I like the simplicity of the true tank combat without them. But if someone really WANTS to play a variant with air-units, it'd be nice if they could have rules that are balanced and playable AND realitic -- which is what I tried to present, I hope I succeeded in at least THAT much. Garth L. Getgen P.S> A line dropped out somehow: The OH-58 can carry ONE Ammo Pack. ------------------------------ From: Scott R Pyle Subject: Yet another new OGRE unit! > From: garth.getgen@genie.com > I wish I could take full credit for this idea, but alas, my momma raised > an honest boy. I found a 'Web page that advertises sci-fi minitures > (please don't ask for the URL, because I didn't write it down -- look in > the newsgroup REC.GAMES.MINITURES.MISC for a message with an embedded > link) and one of the items is this weird multi-articulated thing with a > "laser dish" on a tower. All I can do is try to relate that to GEV > terms: You stumbled onto the Reverisco home page, a wonderful; source of Ogre-type miniatures for us for our Ogre Minaitures games. I believe the URL is http://www.halcyon.com We've gotten some great models from John's 1/300 Days of Empire line, which has now fully supported on the page with a host of interesting GIFs. The Janus Mk VII pictured there, after some modifications on our end, is now our "Hover Ogre," or Ogre GEV, if you will. John's Blower cars also make excellent, Light, Heavy, and SuperHeavy GEVs. His tanks are alos ideal for various armor units, from light tanks to Superheavy. His stuff is pretty affordable, and highly adaptable to Ogre. Incidentally, if anyone wants a breakdown of all of the units we've developed over the course of the last 3 months of our Ogre Miniatures campaign, please let me know, and I'll post it to the mailing list. BTW, Garth, love your treatment of this unique unit! >>>>Thanks! Scott R. Pyle Assistant Cataloging Librarian Youngstown State University srpyle@cc.ysu.edu ------------------------------ From: garth.getgen@genie.com Subject: Mapping stuff > [How about San Francisco? I hear that's gonna be a hot > battleground when the Nihon Empire invades. -HJC] That'll work, too. In fact, I may still have some maps from when I was stationed at Fort Ord, Monterey California (an hour's drive south of San Francisco) that I can use as a prototype. ~~~~~ > Roll a second die againt the Infantry at half strength .... Opps ... I meant to change this once I looked at the math again -- make that a FULL strength attack but subtract ONE from the die roll. Infantry INSIDE the armor unit just suffer a SPILLOVER but at FULL strength. ~~~~~ > I swear AT Hexmap, often enough, but there isn't much > better out there. sigh. Walt O'Hara I'd love to update the program IF the source code was available and IF I knew anything about C++ and IF I had the time. Just too many "if's".... ~~~~~ > [If the power source for a laser (not laser tower, which I consider a > fixed installation) could be made mobile in a hull smaller than a Mark > III, then the battlefield would be crawling with them, right? Which begs to ask "How big of power system is required by a laser?". If it's big enough to require an OGRE hull, why don't all OGREs have laser weapons? My presumption was this used two (or three) CRAWLER hulls rigged together as one articulated unit. One would have the generator to power it and the other(s) would hold the mast. > I can still see an "Aegis" Laser Cruiser as the escort to the GEV > carrier. (No terrain to get in the way...) -HJC] Except the shore line!!!!!! It's not a bad idea, but doesn't help much when the battle is over Munich or Moscow. There's even a question in my mind how far up river you want to take a deep-water Cruiser. I'll have to check with my wife's co-workers on that one (she's in the Navy Reserve). Garth L. Getgen SSgt USAF ----- [Hey, I already KNOW how to power an X-ray laser (and if it's killing things that take nukes to kill, it's gotta be X-rays, right?) Simply set off a nuke in a confined space. -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1997, by Steve Jackson Games.