============ OGRE/GEV list, April 10th (Last: April 7th) ============= ===== Copter choppers From: garth.getgen@genie.com From: sdorr@ix.netcom.com (Scott David Orr) ===== Plastic Minis From: sj@io.com (Steve Jackson) ===== OGREs Online (OOL?) From: SFsupply@aol.com ===== Ogres in the Auction! From: sj@io.com (Steve Jackson) ===== Howdy! First Postings and Ideas for Ogre From: NODUI@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ From: garth.getgen@genie.com Subject: Copter choppers > From: SFsupply@aol.com > > Wow! Love your chopper article Garth. Thank you. As you can probably tell, I put a lot of thought into that over the years. It was only recently that I hammered a few things down, but the basic idea hasn't changed much since about 1988 or so. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > [Let's assume that physics isn't terribly revised in the next century. > There are two plausible ways of generating the effect of OGRE lasers: > > A> Set off a nuke and lase in X-rays. Still doesn't wash with me. I've read about these in several sci-fi settings and even one theoritical paper on them ... from what I know about the proposed technology: it's a one-shot weapon. I just don't see how you can set a nuke off inside a building to fire the laser and still have a building left afterwards. And even if you can, how are you going to recharge it to ever fire again, let alone in a four minute game turn?? > Either one of these should fit in a Mk-III, but not anything smaller. Who's to say?? But putting such an item on an OGRE screws up the game balance. As you said, LASERs are one of the most powerful devices in the game, so you need to be able to kill one. I don't care what the miniature looks like, whether it's based on a crawler or a stripped down Ogre; it simply must have a very LOW defense rating to preserve game balance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > As for the MLRS, yet another unit that is > totally ineffective against OGREs? -HJC] Yeah, so?? It's an ARCHAIC unit, from the days before OGREs roamed the Earth. It wasn't designed to fight "modern" armor (let alone OGREs), it was designed to break up enemy formations. With the advent of more powerful weapons (ones that cause spillover effects), formation attacks (STACKING) fell out of favor and reduce the need for the MRLS. The only redeeming feature is its longer effective range: since it doesn't fire "smart" rounds it can't be spoofed, and by saturating the area with cluster bombs it assures some will land on target. On the other hand, I can see that it would cause a 3-strength attack on the OGRE's treads as it runs over the cluster bombs. What do you mean "yet another ..."?? As far as I know, this is the first unit ever purposed that can not hurt an OGRE. I know >>I<< never suggest one before. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > From: sdorr@ix.netcom.com (Scott David Orr) > > > Why doesn't everything in range get huge bonuses on their > > "anti-air" (Cruise Missile) rolls, whenever a helicopter flies > > past? (They are MUCH easier targets than the missiles.) > > That would seem obvious to me: they're not a fragile > little missile, but a full-sized unit, with armor. There's also the matter of game balance. The reason the interception rules were added is because of the Cruise Missile's infinite strike range. Without such a rule, they'd be way Way WAY too powerful with no defense against them. Choppers, on the other hand, have a much smaller strike range. You have a chance to get close enough to shoot at one with regular combat, so I don't feel you need a special interception rule. Additionally, these were originally developed with my Line-Of-Sight and Reaction Fire rules in mind -- so you DO have a chance to fire at them first. I am considering making it so spillover fire on choppers is NOT halfed, which also brings their effectiveness back down a notch or two. Whether Mr. Jackson is interested or not, >>I<< would welcome any and all feedback and playtest reports. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > [The Cruise missile is fairly BIG (Even a Mk-VI is too small to > mount a reasonable number of them) and like the OGREs is almost > solid armor, with minimal airfoils. I agree with the first part. When I made the OLCM rules (Ogre Launched Cruise Missile), I used the formula in SPACE GAMER #81 that shows external Ogre Missiles are 1 space items and the Main Battery takes 3 -- and I made OLCMs a size 4 item. This compares well with the "Heavy Missile Tank" purposal, which is a Cruise Missile Crawler carrying two OGRE type missiles. I put 5 OLCMs on the "Fat Man" OGRE (based on the Mark-VII hull) and 3 on the "Little Boy" (based on the Mark-V). As to the rest: they can't be "solid armor" ... they'd have to be a flying fuel tank. Armored, yes -- but not "solid armor". Define "minimal airfoils", please. The laws of aerodynamic physics require some sort of wing or it won't fly. Granted, they don't have to be very big; but they have to provide lift and not just guidance control. Garth L. Getgen ----- From: sdorr@ix.netcom.com (Scott David Orr) Subject: Copter choppers > [The Cruise missile is fairly BIG (Even a Mk-VI is too small to >mount a reasonable number of them)... It's small enough to be carried on a missile crawler. >...and like the OGREs is almost solid >armor, with minimal airfoils. (Plus it isn't bothered by 10G turns) >-HJC] Obvious, because of its small size or whatever, "almost solid armor" isn't much armor in the case of the cruise missile, since _any_ hit kills it, and in fact this doesn't even require a full turn of firing. Looking athte rules for intercepting cruise missiles, I think you have to conclude that they're much, much more fragile than any armor unit in the game (or even infantry, for that matter). By contrast, I have trouble seeing how a helicopter in NOE flight is much different than a normal armor unit--it is a little higher up, but unless the terrain it perfectly flat, it will still be able to put terrain between itself and incoming fire. Scott Orr ----- [The problem with using airfoils to support yourself, is what happens when a nuke is set off somewhere in your general locale? A NOE unit that was using computer controlled airfoils to maintain its position would plummet after a shock wave passed it. (GEVs at least have a contained bag of wind underneath them) My understanding is that the cruise missiles use rocket thrust to hover. (Orion effect?) -HJC] ------------------------------ From: sj@io.com (Steve Jackson) Subject: Plastic Minis Garth suggested that I look into having Reviresco do plastic - but as far as I can see their home page says they do white metal. I'd love to find an injection molding company that I could work with, but the ones that I've talked to don't seem interested in new business on this scale. Nothing new from the Hong Kong casters yet. In other news - did everybody see the news story about the plan to fry tactical missiles from 100 miles away, using lasers mounted on 747s? Steve Jackson - yes, of SJ Games - yes, we won the Secret Service case Learn Web or die - http://www.sjgames.com/ - dinosaurs, Lego, Kahlua! The heck with PGP keys; finger for Geek Code. Fnord. ----- [You mean the ABL? See: http://www.plk.af.mil/PLhome/TM/newsletters/vol1_number3/jul95.html BTW, take a look at: http://www.pica.army.mil/orgs/fsac/sad/1997/janfeb/tart3pg1.html -HJC] ------------------------------ From: SFsupply@aol.com Subject: OGREs Online (OOL?) >>[Let's assume that physics isn't terribly revised in the next century.<< Physics were (kinda) revised just over half a century ago. Remeber that Albert what-iz-name fellow? I refuse to believe that something will not be possible forty years from now just because the physics don't support it now. I am terribly backlogged with work right now, but this fall I want to start playing some SERIOUS Ogre/GEV. What about the possibility of on-line games? (You know, both sides set up maps and counters, then "send" their moves and combats via IM or a chat room.) flunky ----- [I used to moderate e-mail games. No more. I used to hear noises about a "realtime" version over the web that would be on IO. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: sj@io.com (Steve Jackson) Subject: Ogres in the Auction! Our auction project, which is letting us buy a new webserver Real Soon, just posted three Ogre lots. Each lot is a painted Mark V originally built for the Exercise K game in Japan, two MHWZ, and a batch of buildings. It's at http://beta.sjgames.com/auction/ thanks for checking it out. And a big batch of new Ogre files go up on our Web *very* soon. Jackie is htmlizing them now. Steve Jackson - yes, of SJ Games - yes, we won the Secret Service case Learn Web or die - http://www.sjgames.com/ - dinosaurs, Lego, Kahlua! The heck with PGP keys; finger for Geek Code. Fnord. ------------------------------ From: NODUI@worldnet.att.net Subject: Howdy! First Postings and Ideas for Ogre Howdy! I've been a confirmed Ogrer for at least five years, and have had loads of fun turning Central Europe into a self-lit, glass-paved parking lot. And, yes, for Steve Jackson, I'm the guy who sent in that article for Pyramid at least four years ago for an Ogre scenereo, but never responded back. I lost your response, honest! Anyways, here's some ideas I've been thinking of for Killing Zone and any Ogre articles in Pyramid- 1)When you deploy the Nihon Empire cybertanks, don't make them rehashes of the Combine/Paneuropean machines. They should have a completely different design philsophy behind thier machines. 2)More conventional vehicles, such as self-propelled howitzers, hovertanks, and more types of infantry. Additional infantry types can include stealth infantry(which has the same equipment a Ninja has for cloaking), zip infantry(on hoverbikes), and even anti-infantry infantry(with a second attack against infantry, like an anti-personnel battery). 3)Make Cyberwalkers(from Marc Vensia) Ogre cannon, so we can have minatures for them. That's it for now. More stuff on the way! Jon Souza NoDUI@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1997, by Steve Jackson Games.