============ OGRE/GEV list, Dec 8th (Last: Dec 7th) ============= ===== Where all the formulas lie. From: "Said, Stephen" ===== Infantry Types - more than numbers From: "Andrew Walters" ------------------------------ From: "Said, Stephen" Subject: Where all the formulas lie. Henry, I've never played with formulas before. To be honest I wouldn't even know where to find them. Can you send me the info on the formulas or tell me where I can find it posted? One would think that a unit that you are paying for should have more of an edge rather than just being able to swim. The concept of a Elite Ranger unit is not absurd. Far from it, if you are expending extra points to purchase an elite unit, I think the extra defense combined with the 'swimming' capability is what is expected in an 'elite' unit. Like I said, If you don't mind filling me in re: the various formulas that exist, I can give it more thought for you... Regards, Stephen Said --//:Origin Australia - Systems Engineer://-- office : +613 9574-8080 fax : +613 9574-9090 mobile : +613 417-265-025 email : ssaid@earthling.net stephen.said@au.origin-it.com "Multitasking - screwing up several things at once." ----- [There has been several generations of various formulas since my first one way back in Space Gamer times. For my current working version for armor units (correct to within 1 percent!) see my web-page. (URL at end) -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Infantry Types - more than numbers My henriometer is missing, but I wanted to throw out some ideas that show how different types of infantry could be included as something other than a different combination of numbers. Infantry aren't just slower armor units, they act significantly differently in both Ogre and GEV, and if we want different infantry types to add flaver and not just more combinations of the same properties, then we have to alter the surrounding rules. These haven't been tested, and are meant mostly as an inspiration. Perhaps that's too strong a word, maybe I mean provocation. The first couple are clever, later ones I'm kind of ashamed of. I wouldn't suggest using many of these at a time, but they, or some better-developed variation, might add a bit of color. Of course, you could combine them all in this cool Combine-Attack-On-A-Paneuropean-Training-Camp scenario... Rank Amateurs: Your average MI in 2085 is impressive, these guys are just impressed, as in yanked off the street and stuffed in a suit. They're "qualified" on the weapons (which are somewhat automated), but they can't fly, so they're M1. Coordination is bad, no coordination of fire above *squad* level (ie only a single strength point attack). They always move away from an Ogre in LOS but beyond 8"/4 hexes (they're not worried about missles, but will not know whether or not the Ogre still has Mains/Secondaries). Once the Ogre is in weapons range they will move toward cover and stay in cover. Not doubled in overruns. They can ride in a truck but not on/in an armor unit. Green Troops: A flying suit takes a lot of practice, and these guys haven't had it yet. They can move M1 on the ground without difficulty, but if they choose to jump they're at D0 the following turn, since they're no good at bounding overwatch, need to regroup, etc. If they land in woods or swamp they might be disabled for a turn just as an GEV would be. They're also not doubled in overruns, and cannot combine fire beyond their *platoon*. They can ride in a truck, on a tank, but not on a GEV-PC. Won't move into an Ogre's Main/Secondary range (they will know what that range is) unless there are armor units within that range also, but they won't run away if the Ogre is moving towards them. Partisans: Within a given town hex there are underground/paramilitary types who dislike one side or the other. They don't have powered suits or targeting radar, but that makes them all the harder to detect; to wit, no counters are placed on the board at setup. They also don't move, since their only defense is being hidden, and their "weapons" are location specific. How do they attack infantry/armor? Nuclear molotov cocktails? Pipe bombs made out of storm drains? Dig a big hold and cover it with branches? Probably not, but they might have some nuke-in-a-briefcase type weapons provided clandestinedly by the friendly side, or a truck full of fertilizer goes off as a HVY goes by, or maybe they take a few pounds of plastique and drop a building on top of a MSL. They're not doubled in overruns for obvious reasons, and they could perhaps be allowed only one or two attacks. They're gone when the hex is rubbled in any case. Allow one side a certain number of attack points to distribute among the town hexes, up to three per hex. They're kinda sorta a variation on mines, except that the *attacker* might place them in hexes that start out in the defender's control. Vatican Guards: Are the carabineri the Swiss troops employed by the Vatican? Life on the nuclear battlefield is largely concerned with just trying to stay alive, or at least having a chance. Give up any effort at self-preservation and you can be a little more destructive, briefly. When you're convinced you're fighting for something bigger than yourself this becomes possible, and when your suit is designed for this tactic... These troops are standard MI, until they make a "Holy Charge"; a better name is needed, but you can't call it a attack, because suicide is a sin. This is declared at the beginning of a turn, and movement goes to M3 and attack strength is doubled. If they enter an overrun situation their attack strength is tripled, but defense is not doubled. During the opposing player's following turn they have D0, even in an overrun. On their next turn they're back to normal stats, or they can declare another Holy Charge. They can do this any number of times, but each time you do you better destroy everyone in range. These rules would really require some testing, but you can imagine the respect with which they're be treated by opposing armor. Civil Defense Forces: Inexpensive gun emplacements, manned by lightly trained civilians. Treat as non-moving, non-doubled-in-overrun, infantry. Airborne/Rocketeers: Imagine an MI strapped to a booster rocket. I tried to do the math, and it seems like a 2g x 10 second booster could carry you about 13,000 feet or four hexes, and I think longer burns and higher g-forces would be workable. The only question is not being shot out of the sky when you're coming down. Come up with a rationalization for that and you can have prescheduled infantry drops in the middle of a battle. Fast Attack Boats: I don't know if PBRs (Patrol Boat, River, from Viet Nam) will be replaced by GEVs, evolve into something closer to armor, or survive in a similar form, but here's a thought: 2/2, M4, must stay on an all-water hex or follow a stream by moving along the hexes it borders (changing sides freely). No second move, only attack strength doubled in overrun (no cover). The crew can disembark and become a normal 2/1, but you can't get back on board. You could even stick one of those 3/4 missles on this thing. I'm not crazy about the submarine rules, as I may have expressed, but these things would be alot more like armor/infantry. Human Wave: There's always going to be someone doing this, from the Picts to the Iraqis. If armor units are rapid-firing five kiloton shells we can assume that they're pretty cheap. Imagine a thousand "soldiers" on dirt bikes, each with a pair of satchel charges, total cost about two million 1997 US dollars (assuming the satchell charges cost the same as a HVY shell, and assuming a tank's main armament shell in 2085 is not more than twice as expensive, proportionately). That's less than a modern MBT, so assume we can get a *thousand* of these guys for less than an armor unit's cost. If they all charge you, can your HVY get them *all* before *one* gets close? I don't like this idea, I'm not writing any rules for it, and I just don't want to deal with it, but I had a friend who tried a Car Wars design consisting of a van full of men with submachine guns (guns cost something, by people do not, at least in Car Wars). The van was shot up, and then he rammed someone (all the SMGs got the point blank bonus), but then he had all those pedestrians, and if enough of them ran into *you* you had to roll not to lose control... He didn't win (obviously), but a couple other people were knocked out, and the whole arena combat was altogether flavored by this wierdness. In warfare, you have to assume that if something *might* work, someone will try it, and if someone might try it, you have to be prepared to defend against it. ----- [The problem with unprotected humans in the open is that a single nuclear attack should wipe a hex clean, no matter how many are stacked there and legs are given as movement factor one half of a hex per turn so even Heavies can give hell while giving ground. How about infantry that can turn the jets on full blast and fly across any terrain at one half of a movement point per hex (Maximum movement of five or so), but they're subject to cruise missile style interception (At the classic +3 on the dice), so they can't just waltz into an overrun. (If it's three times normal movement, two hexes "on foot", six in the air, I can see double cost on this basis alone. Would you fire an Ogre missile at a squad, if you only had a 6+ (13/18ths) chance of nailing it?) -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1997, by Steve Jackson Games.