============ OGRE/GEV list, January 26th (Last: January 20th) ============= ===== Strategic Rules. From: fish From: sdorr@ix.netcom.com (Scott David Orr) From: "Stephen A. Said" ===== Dig. Bat. From: Paul Calvi ===== Ogre Macrotures and Howitzers/Revetments ROCK! From: SFsupply@aol.com ===== Breakthrough ends: Pan E Marg. Victory ! From: peletier@grolen.com ------------------------------ From: fish Subject: Strategic Rules. >From: "Stephen A. Said" > for various cities per month. The example is, Hamburg with 3,000,000 > population, has an OGRE production facility (1 Per month with pre > determined templates), can produce 50 points worth of armour, and 30 > points worth of infantary per month as opposed to Munich which can > produce 60 points worth of armour, and 40 points worth of infantary per > month. Gee, which one should I attack? Hmm... you should note that after the War (when I believe you said you set your campaign), all remaining self-aware Factories no longer produced Ogres out of a sense of self-protection, even if they retained the capability. All Ogres which survived the War were also self-aware, so buying the loyalty of one for an offensive campaign which will most likely get it annihilated is going to be difficult as well. Someone mentioned mapping programs. I've found a good source at (http://www.funet.fi/pub/doc/games/roleplay/programs/mapping/). There are other sources spread throughout the Web, but that's the one I've gleaned most of my programs from. -- fish. ----- From: sdorr@ix.netcom.com (Scott David Orr) Subject: Strategic Rules. >From: "Stephen A. Said" >PS: Has anyone developed, or does anyone know of mapping software? There's a Windows program called "Hexmap" that can be found at ftp://earthsea.stanford.edu/pub/hexmap/hexmap45.zip. It's well regarded, and I have it on my coputer, but I've never really used it so I can't tell you too much about it. Scott Orr ----- From: "Stephen A. Said" Subject: Strategic Rules. >> for various cities per month. The example is, Hamburg with 3,000,000 >> population, has an OGRE production facility (1 Per month with pre >> determined templates), can produce 50 points worth of armour, and 30 >> points worth of infantary per month as opposed to Munich which can >> produce 60 points worth of armour, and 40 points worth of infantary per >> month. Gee, which one should I attack? >Hmm... you should note that after the War (when I believe you said you set >your campaign), all remaining self-aware Factories no longer produced >Ogres out of a sense of self-protection, even if they retained the >capability. All Ogres which survived the War were also self-aware, so >buying the loyalty of one for an offensive campaign which will most likely >get it annihilated is going to be difficult as well. >-- fish. point taken. i guess i was looking for a way for players to get their hands on OGRE's for campaign purposes, therefore i wasn't strictly adhering to the history. this raises another issue, has there been a discussion in relation to timelines. i vaguley remember reading about one person casting dispersions on the official time line? the bottom line is however, i'm wanting to put together strategic level rules, therefore, rather than playing tactically time after time, i can indulge my (and hopefully other people out there too!) need for a strategic level game, that also incorporates the decisive tactical battles. regards, sed ----- [Here's my dispersions! First autonomous robot tank is SIXTY years away? (Please read the current issue of the Marine Corps Gazette!) US Oil gone in 2012? The current ABM lasers don't pan out until 2023? (By this date, we WILL have a robot tank sufficiently competent to patrol alone and it'll be smaller than manned tanks.) -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Paul Calvi Subject: Dig. Bat. This system works great with Ogre/GEV as well. Paul +++++++ THE DIGITAL BATTLEFIELD Play Miniature/Board Games on the Computer! by Paul J. Calvi Jr. 17JAN97 I've been working on a way to play board and computer games (including Full Thrust, Dirtside 2, and Stargrunt 2 to name a few) on the computer, which, for the sake of brevity, I will call the Digital Battlefield. I know that at least one gentleman is in the process of programming a JAVA-based program to play Full Thrust over the Web. Such a program will be quite a boon to FT players everywhere, but until such a program(s) is finished I think I may have a very workable solution (Note: this system works equally as well with any miniatures game as well as any low unit-density board game). I have worked on such a system for various reasons. First, I wanted to be able to play these great games without the need to purchase and paint miniatures--I know this is part of the fun, but one only has so much time, space, and money to devote to a particular series of miniatures as well as gaming in general. Second, I also wanted to be able to keep a game setup for longer periods of time and taking up a table for a long time is not always possible. Third, the computer offers unlimited flexibility/customization and, of course, allows one to play games over email. WHAT IS NEEDED All that is needed to use the Digital Battlefield is any vector-based drawing program that allows multiple levels of zoom, the ability to group objects, the ability to rotate objects, and preferably, the ability to import and rotate bitmaps. I use Corel Draw 7.0 and Corel Xara because those are two programs I have and they both work extremely well (Adobe Illustrator and Macromedia Freehand are two other common drawing programs). Of these programs, I would recommend Corel Xara because it does all that is needed and only costs $100. If anyone knows of a cheaper program that has all these functions please let me know. Also a raster-based "paint" program is also helpful for unit and terrain preparation/modification. ADVANTAGES The advantages to playing games using the Digital Battlefield are many: * It allows a larger playing area than is practical on the table top. Both Corel programs support page (and thus "table") sizes over 100in on a side. This is a larger area than most people have available for normal table top games with miniatures. The multiple zooms allow one to zoom-in to greater than 1:1 scale and out far enough to view the entire "surface." Centimeter and smaller scales are also easily used allowing even bigger play areas. * Because you are using a vector-based drawing program to play you can play using anything you can draw. Obviously the better artist you are the better your ships will look, but even the graphically challenged can easily make respectable looking ships in just a few minutes. These drawings can be scaled as needed to fit any scale and rotated in anyway to play the game. * Extra units are infinitely available so you'll never run out of ships or counters. * The big advantage to the mentioned drawing programs is that they allow one to import bitmaps (For FT players this allows you to use the beautiful B5, etc. ship counters available on the Web). * Another advantage for email play is that file sizes are very small. With vector units, file sizes are about 20-50K for the largest battles. With bitmap units, files get larger (200K+) but can be controlled by the bitmaped files' sizes and color depths. Of course with compression programs even these files could be made very small for transmission to your opponent. DISADVANTAGES There are of course a few disadvantages to playing games this way as well: * The disadvantages will vary due to the computer system and program(s) used. First of course is simply the loss of aesthetic beauty of a table top miniatures game (or board game).=20 * Depending on your computer monitor size and video resolution, you will have greater or lesser enjoyment with the Digital Battlefield. I play on a 17in monitor at 1024x768 resolution and think it is just fine. When zoomed out to max the ships are still distinguishable. Someone on a 14inch monitor at 640x480 resolution may not be so lucky. * Also, depending on how big your game is, what you use for ships (vector vs. bitmaps), and which drawing program you use, you may or may not get satisfactory performance in scrolling and zooming-in/out while playing the game. Processor speed, amount of RAM, video card speed, and the graphics program itself are all factors here. On a P150 w/32MB of RAM, game performance was excellent even with large numbers of bitmap units. HOW TO PLAY The first thing you need to do to use the Digital Battlefield is setup your game environment. This involves choosing your play scale, setting up your page in the drawing program, making your map, and making the play counters (unit and administrative). After setup, play proceeds almost as it normally would on the table top. -Scale and Page Setup- I've tested three setups for miniature play; first was an inch scale. Everything works fine at this scale and it presents no conversion problems at all, but the 100 inch limit is still a bit tight for larger games. Another option is to use a 81/2 x 11" page size and use a 1mm = 1inch scale. This looks fine on screen and allows you to print your battles onto a single piece of paper for reference (with a 600dpi laser printer the units are very small, but discernible). My favorite setup uses a 140 x 140cm page size. This allows maximum maneuver room and a good "true" size (Also, the centimeter scale just happens to fit perfectly with the graphic Babylon 5/Star Wars counters available on the Web for FT.) Remember to turn your rulers on to aid in movement during play. The Preferences or Options settings usually allow you to adjust the default rotation of objects (15 or 30 degrees is probably the best choice). Most draw programs have a grid scale you can turn on and adjust. I would recommend turning the grid on. It also looks good as it can represent a "star" background or make the map look like it is cut into military grid squares. -Making the Map- Because miniature games are designed to played without a hex grid the draw programs scale and measurement functions work perfectly. If you are playing a game that needs hexes (or you just want to use them) you can overlay the page with a hex fill. Otherwise, you can just play on the bare page (you could make a colored background, but this hides your grid and slows down scrolling). For ground games (such as DS2 and SG2) you can either construct simple terrain as you would on the table top (hills, forest areas, etc.) or make a very detailed map to scale (this will slow down your game performance depending on how detailed you got and your computer's hardware configuration). In either case, it is best to make the map "layer one" and play on a second layer (if your program supports layers). You can get as creative as you want here and use bitmap objects for great looking terrain, use "landscaping" vector objects, or just make simple geometric shapes. Once designed, the map should be saved as a single object (group) or layer to prevent it from getting altered during play. -Making the Units and Counters- The easiest way to make units for games is to open a bitmap image of the units (such as the FT B5, etc. ship counters available on the Web) in a paint program, cut out the individual "pieces" and import them into the draw program to use as counters (at the centimeter scale this works perfectly for FT). The pieces can be "modified" with numbers/comments either in the paint program or right in the vector program. During play they can be moved and rotated as needed. The disadvantage to bitmap objects is that they are larger (in file size) than most equivalent vector objects (but not always) thus slowing down game performance and increasing game file size; they also lose "resolution" at certain zoom levels making them harder to distinguish and, depending on your play scale, may or may not scale well without losing fidelity. Your own preferences and system setup will dictate whether you wish to use bitmap objects or not. You can open any paint program and make simple administrative (move/shoot/command, etc.) counters for import into the game. You can also copy/paste/duplicate/clone units easily to create large numbers of units. The alternative to bitmap objects is vector ones made in the draw program itself. These are infinitely scaleable and rotatable and usually are very readable at any zoom level. If you keep the objects simple they also give very speedy game performance. You can add unit IDs, etc. to the units when you make them. Remember to save the finished units as a single object (group) for easy handling during play. Obviously you can easily make simple administrative (move/shoot/command, etc.) counters as well. Remember you can copy/paste/duplicate/clone units easily to create large numbers of units. You can make "damaged/destroyed" versions of any units. An alternative with vector-made units is, when they take damage, to un-group them and remove part of the design (say a warp nacelle or an individual fighter) and then re-group them again. This adds some nice visual excitement to the game and also aids in play. With either vector or bitmapped objects, as units are destroyed game performance will increase. As noted, you will need to make various administrative (move/shoot/command, etc.) counters to play your games. An alternative to the counters is to simply "write" on the play surface as and where needed during play. Just type out what you want and scale it down to size. Depending on your play scale and preferred zoom level this could be a convenient or annoying alternative to premade "counters". You can also use this technique for making notes to your opponent during email play. The grid scale and rulers make judging distances and moving units easier, but I have also found that making premade "movement templates" works very well. These are simple rectangles of various lengths. To use them just drag the appropriate template in front of your unit and then drag your unit to the other end of it and you just made your move. The draw programs allow you to be as precise as you wish (in fact, far more precise then you could ever get on the table top). -Playing the Game- Playing any of the games using the Digital Battlefield is done essentially the same as you would play on the table top. You can use written record sheets and normal dice or use computer forms or text records and dice rolling programs for play-by-email games if you wish. As with any manual (board) game, play-by-email may require various modifications to the sequence of play to accommodate the lack of in-turn player interaction. Also, and most importantly, this system has no game protection so don't play with someone who you think may be tempted to cheat. TIPS AND TRICKS **You can use the drawing programs text and other features to make notes during play on the game board (or off to the side) or to show other activities. **Make "shadow" versions of units to show previous positions. **If you have access to a color scanner, you can scan in your un-punched counters, open them in a paint program, and then "cut" them into individual units for import into the Digital Battlefield. **In FT (or other space/naval games) you can use your programs line drawing ability to create "course lines" that allow players to see a fleet's maneuvers during the game. You can make these a very light color during play so they are not intrusive and then darken them at the end to get the "big picture". **A seeming limitation to the Digital Battlefield is finding players with a compatible drawing program. This limitation can largely be overcome using common graphics formats. For example, Corel Draw 7.0 on Windows 95 can read and edit Adobe Illustrator .eps files from the Macintosh. Thus, in this case, players with completely separate, and seemingly incompatible, systems can still play as if they had the same system. OTHER COMMENTS HPS Simulations has a DOS "game" called Aide de Camp that allows players to play any board game on a computer. It has many features that my Digital Battlefield system does not have (dice rolling, unit tracking, etc.) but also has many limitations (including a fixed sequence of play and a poor aesthetic look). A Windows 95 version was supposed to be available soon, but I recently spoke with Scott (the owner) and he said version 2 may be a year or more away due to problems with the program's compiler. This is a real shame as a professional, flexible system such as this is sorely needed. Players should still give Aide de Camp a look, for many games it works very well and a number of board game company's sell pre-made ADC modules for their games. ------------------------------ From: SFsupply@aol.com Subject: Ogre Macrotures and Howitzers/Revetments ROCK! Hi Henry! Here's a lot of babble from my files... OGRE MACROTURES No, the subject title isn't misspelled. That's right, Macrotures. Big 1/35 scale models of the "classic" armor units (and Ogres!) of this great game. Some of you may have seen these HUGE floor battles going on at GENCON's '95 and '96. For those of you that don't know about it well... Sci-Fi Supply obtained permission from SJG to produce a set of models based on the miniatures used in OGRE. These Models consist of: Two ( 2 ) Mark V Ogres (nearly 3 foot long and well over a foot tall), nine ( 9 ) Heavy tanks, six ( 6 ) Missile tanks, fifteen ( 15 ) G.E.V.s, eight ( 8 ) Light tanks and four ( 4 ) Howitzers. In addition, there is also a command post and 3-D terrain available. The models consist of stressed resin shells (while not indestructible, they HAVE survived over two years worth of conventions with nothing more than detail damage.) We (Sci-Fi Supply) will be at a number of conventions this year. If you would like more info, please Email me. HOWITZERS/REVETMENTS ROCK!! Remember the old "Four Howitzer Defense in OGRE" from the OGRE BOOK? (How many of you remember the OGRE BOOK? Well, I've got a strategy for you. Howitzers in revetments and emplacements! Sure, they cost a lot of points (nearly twice as much for a Howitzer in an emplacement with point defense), but with a defense strength of 3, 4 or even 5 ( !!! ) they're worth every point! Consider: On an unprotected Howitzer, a Mk III Ogre can get an automaic kill with a missile, a 4/5 chance of a kill with a single main battery and a guaranteed disable result with even a single secondary battery shot. Now spend 11 points and put it in an emplacement. Now that Mk III must use BOTH missiles -or a main battery AND two secondaries just to get a 50/50 chance of destroying it! If the Ogre is spending that much firepower to get that Howitzer (with no guarantee he'll succeed) then he will have precious little left to fire at your other Howitzer(s) and mobile units that turn. And don't forget Engineers! They can build revetments during the game, and should be! At only twice the cost of regular infantry these guys are a STEAL! With their other special abilities to plant charges, destroy buildings (even eliminate weaponless Ogres!) AND have all the characteristics of regular infantry, no army should be without them! A tougher Howitzer will not only survive longer (and therefore inflict damage for several more turns than it would normally) it will act as a pain and distraction to your cybernetic foe, giving you even MORE time with your other units to attack. (Sure, you will have less mobile units due to the cost of the Howitzers, but again, I think you'll find the trade-off effective.) Here is a force mix for implementing this strategy in the Mk III vs. CP scenario (using a 112 pt. limit as this matches the force levels printed in the basic scenario of the OGRE/GEV pocket games): UNIT COST PER TOTAL 2 Howitzers in emplacements w/PD 23 46 3 Heavy Tanks 6 18 3 GEVs 6 18 2 LGEVS 3 6 12 Squads of INF 2 24 TOTAL: 112 points This is a very "high-risk" force mix. The defense will win or lose based pretty much on how many shots his Howitzers can get off. The Howitzers should be approximately mid-field so that they can start firing on the Ogre by the 2nd or 3rd turn. The GEVs should get behind the Ogre and conduct hit-and-runs, while the Heavies and Infantry should wait until the Ogre has lost some guns to Howitzer fire and then pounce together to do as much damage as possible. Expect to lose the heavies quickly as the Ogre will ram at least one of them per turn even if its out of weapons. The GEVs should snipe at treads (always 1-1 odds) while the Howitzers and tanks shoot at the weaponry. Consider having about three squads of Infantry guarding each Howitzer. The Ogre will either have to stop to shoot up the infantry (difficult to do if they're in woods or swamp) giving the Howitzer another turn to fire at it, or just plow on through, allowing the infantry squads to fire first in an overrun with double attack strength (ouch). If there is town terrain available anywhere mid-field, set up the emplaced Howitzers there!! To be fair, you should lower your point level if town and forest terrain (as well as hills for hull-down and LOS bonuses) are available. OPTION: Replace the emplaced Howitzers with 4 regular Howitzers, but buy at least 4 squads of Engineers. Set up the classic four Howitzer defense, but have the Engineers build a revetment around each one (it'll only take them one turn for each Howitzer). Even with it's two missiles the Ogre will not be able to fire upon the Engineers for a couple of turns, allowing them to scamper away when done. flunky. ----- [I find that an all-LGEV force, with the infantry spread out in single squads renders OGRE missiles fairly useless anyway. (Go ahead and shoot. Where's your target?) I don't think Engineers can build revetments AROUND another unit, but they tend to work out nicely for missile tanks. (MHWZs require large revetments) Two eng-squads is 8 points. They build a small revetment every other turn (need to move), and pay off their additional expense (over inf) by turn three. The way to counter triple squads in revetments is to carry single militia squads on your heavy tanks. (On top of a tank, a militia squad has the same attack, defense and move of an infantry squad and it costs a SIXTH as much! Hey Steve, when can we get Heavy Weapons militia? ;-) -HJC] ------------------------------ From: peletier@grolen.com Subject: Breakthrough ends: Pan E Marg. Victory ! The Pan Europeans (ccamfield@cyberhome.cyberus.ca) defeated the Combine (faguirre@students.wisc.edu) in a game of basic Breakthrough today. THe game was played by E Mail (PBEM) with peletier@grolen.com GMing. Combine did a great job getting up the map fast and splitting the Pan E forces in half. The Pan E decided to use a Howitzer at 1505 and a couple of LT Tnks in the West with a Msl tnk: Heavy Tanks in the east. However, the Combine made a fatal mistake in bogging down at the city hexes of 0409 and then 'kissing' 4 points of infantry. The PanE infantry just overran two GEVs and took away any chance of Combine Victory. However, the PanE left a hole in the lines and let six GEVs run up the extreme west end of the board, with 2 getting disabled in the Forrest. So, PanE had 16 points, enough for a Marginal Victory. Some minor tactical errors by both sides. AND, we have a map open now. ------------------------------ Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1997, by Steve Jackson Games.