============ OGRE/GEV list, March 3rd (Last: March 1st) ============= ===== OGRE/GEV & IO.COM From: sj@io.com (Steve Jackson) From: garth.getgen@genie.com ===== Chris Camfield's simulation ... From: garth.getgen@genie.com ===== OGRE/GEV SEALS From: garth.getgen@genie.com ===== OGRE Macros in San Francisco From: kcalabro@mindscape.com ===== Ogre OBs - Brasil and Nova Brasilia From: "Devir Livraria Ltda." ------------------------------ From: sj@io.com (Steve Jackson) Subject: OGRE/GEV & IO.COM Telnet access to IO is $10/month - that is, if you are telnetting to IO from another service provider, the IO account is $10. There is no other way to get to that newsgroup. But it is NOT an active group. I wouldn't pay for it if I were you. We will probably be replacing it with a bulletin board CGI attached to our Ogre web page, sometime... Steve Jackson - yes, of SJ Games - yes, we won the Secret Service case Learn Web or die - http://www.io.com/sjgames/ - dinosaurs, Lego, Kahlua! The heck with PGP keys; finger for Geek Code. Fnord. ----- From: garth.getgen@genie.com Subject: OGRE/GEV & IO.COM Steve, {or do you perfer Mr. Jackson?} Thanks for that info. I guess I was misinformed ... I thought I had to use IO.COM as my provider. I'll have to pop the admin guy a note to clearify all the options ... AT&T >>still<< hasn't gotten its act together and allowed for user-webpages yet, so perhaps I'll look into using IO.COM to set one up for a while until (and if) AT&T gets their's running. I do look forward to seeing an "official" open bulletin board for your games. I've tried the 'Web newsgroups and they suck. I'm told AOL has something, but I refuse to try Almost-On-Line again (long, ugly story there). In the mean time, perhaps Henry might want to pull in the message base from the newsgroup (since it's "inactive"), trim out the "junk" and put it in his archive base. Probably a lot of good ideas there. Again, if there's an active playtest program for future paper/board versions of ORGE/GEV, I would be very interested in participating somehow. I have the minitures rules but I'd really like to see the board game revived. Thanks again for your time. Garth L. Getgen SSgt USAF ------------------------------ From: garth.getgen@genie.com Subject: Chris Camfield's simulation ... Having NOT sat down and played with the numbers, I don't know if it's "bad math" or not ... so this is more personal subjective opinion than anything else. Please take it as such and not an "attack" on anyone, OK? Now then, I feel such analysis are flawed when applied to the "real" world, whether the numbers are correct or not. Why? Because it can't really take into concideration tactical variables. What's the terrain? What's the objective? What other forces on involved in the scenario? Even in clear terrain with no other forces, what about overlapping fields of fire? Are the tanks close enough to aid each other or are they spead out? Another problem is you're trying to adjust the cost of the super based on ONLY the heavy -- riddle me this: how do 12 GEVs fair against 12 HVYs vice 6 SUPERS?? How do 6 GEVS + 6 HVYs do against 12 HVYs vice 6 SUPERS? How do any of these forces fair against 6 moble howitzers? You may very well be correct in saying that a SUPER is only half-again better than a HVY, but I feel you have to answer ALL of these questions (and more) to set the overall game-balanced cost. Perhaps if you add something to the SUPER, you'd have that tactical advantage to make up for this 'numerical defficiency" (which I now note was done in the minitures rules [which I've never played, I like the paper version] to add the AP guns and underwater movement). Also, if you ever play my REACTION FIRE rules {they're in Henny's archives but never seem to have made it to the Steve Jackson page}, you'll find a BIG increase in the SUPER's survivability. In fact, most things can't hurt a SUPER with Reaction Fire -- but Heavy's can be tagged. On the other hand, I ran into a simular dilemma when I first started using the Lt-GEV and GEV-PC. I quickly realised that the GEV-PC can thump the heck out of the Lt-GEV in a standup fight, plus it gets to carry infantry. But they cost the same according to the rules. Well, before I wrote my HOUSE-RULES to set the cost of a GEV-PC to 2/3's of a unit (4 VPs), a friend and I playtested them extensively against all sorts of forces. He wanted to make them a whole unit because of the carry-infantry ability, but I felt that was a bit much. Garth L. Getgen SSgt USAF ------------------------------ From: garth.getgen@genie.com Subject: OGRE/GEV SEALS Pardon me while I type this off the top of my head, but this is a new idea I've been thinking about for a couple days now. Some refinement may be needed after playtesting. Every nation today has some sort of Special Operstions Forces (ie, Green Beret, SEALS, Marine Force Recon, British COMMANDOS, etc) and there's no reason to think that they would go out of favor in the future. Indeed, odds are they'll be in more demand, doing the jobs where finesse is better than shear brute force. To keep things simple, I'll use the SEALS designation, but just about any name will do. These are the ultimate in infantry design, and the cost reflect this fact. Basically, they a combination of Marine, Heavy Weapon Squads, Combat Engineers and a little extra. As such, they can stack with other types of Infantry but cannot "loan" any special abilities (such as movement) to those squads. SELAS may ride vehicles as per other Infantry. No more than three SEALS squads may be stacked together, regardless of what other units may be in their hex. The total number of SEALS must be limited in the scenario setup (usually two or three) but there should never be more than five such units in the game, unless the scenario is specifically designed to show off Covert Operations. Each squad of SEALS has factors of Attack 1, Range 2 (4"), Defense 2 (double in woods, etc; triple in towns), Move of 2/1 (4"/2") plus road bonus. Yes, that means they also move with GEVs on the second phase! They move in terrain just like Marines, being able to move in water on the first (but not second) movement phase. Additionally, during the ENEMY player's turn, after the first movement phase and before combat, if they are in range of an enemy unit; they may EITHER fire their normal weapon OR move one hex away/into more protective terrain. They cannot overrun any armor unit at this time, but could overrun Infantry (including Marines, HWS, and Engineers) of less than double the SEALS number. SEALS can use stealth movement. To do this, they must first evade observation: there must be no enemy units in sighting range (its first-phase movement range plus attack range [ie, GEV: 4+2=6 (8"+4" = 12")]) with a clear line of sight of the squad (no blocking terrain {woods/towns/etc} between it and the SEALS). Once this is accomplished, the SEALS can go into "stealth mode": remove the unit from the board, record its location, and it may move at 1/0 (2"/1"). Stealth mode ends if the SEALS fires, moves faster than the limit 1/0 (2"/1"), it moves into an enemy unit hex (within 1") causing a "Surprise Overrun" in which the SEALS attack first!), or if an enemy unit moves into/thru its hex (within 1"). They have the same type of Heavy Weapon as a HWS (Attack 3, Range 4 (8")), but they have five (5) round of ammo for their heavy weapon. They may not fire the HW within two turns of the last firing; ie, fire on turn one, next allowed fire on turn four, then seven. Instead of firing the HW round, they may use it to place as a MINE (per standard mine rules) or as a demolition satchel charge (per Combat Engineer rules). Using the ammo in either of these does not count as firing the weapon, but the ammo is, of course, used and must be marked off. SEALS can capture enemy armor units, converting them to friendly use. To do this, they must overrun a DISABLED unit and survive the defending unit's opening salvo. In leu of attacking the unit, role a d6: 1-2 = no effect, continue the overrun (defender fires again, SEALS now act as normal); 3-4 = unit is captured; 5-6 = unit destroyed. {These odd are borrowed from the 1-1 attack table.} The capture attempt is OPTIONAL, if you just want to attack the enemy unit, you may. Be sure to announce which you're doing before you roll the die. If the unit is captured, it remains disabled until the start of your next turn -- it may then move but not fire for another turn thereafter. (If the unit was disabled by swamp/forest, the die roll for recovery is still needed.) The SEALS must stay with the captured unti until replaced by regular Infantry or at a Command Post. I want to add some sort of anti-Ogre ability, too ... but I can't think of anything reasonable. Besides, I think I've made them quite powerful enough. Oh, the cost: 12 victory points (two armor units or six Infantry squads). Comments??? Garth L. Getgen ----- [Since when have SEALs carried long range firepower? I've been thinking of using Ranger platoons (from the Rangers in Battlesuit). Say 1/1, M3, D2 with no defensive bonus from stacking up, tripled attack in overruns. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: kcalabro@mindscape.com Subject: OGRE Macros in San Francisco Is there gonna be a con in the San Francisco Bay Area where there will be the Macrotures? KC ------------------------------ From: "Devir Livraria Ltda." Subject: Ogre OBs - Brasil and Nova Brasilia Hello there! I haven't been able to post since last autumn because of e-mail problems. Since then, I've been reading January's disscussion re: orders of battle and campaign games with interest. This is the kind of stuff I enjoy reading/writing about - though I know that this board is more rules and nuts'n bolts orientated. In any case, Jorge, a good friend of mine over in Rio de Janeiro, spent his years of mandatory military service in an armored cavalry regiment. I thought it'd make a good, typical Nova Brasilian OB for anyone who's interested. A Brazilian armored cavalry company (and they apparently call them companies and not troops) consists of three plattons and a command section. The command section is made up of a jeep and an APC. Each platoon contains 1 APC, two light armored vehicle, two MG armed jeeps and a mortar armed jeep (apparently 82mm). Vehicles used by the cav are EE-9 and EE-11 Urutu and Cascavel wheeled, all-terrain armored vehicles (the EE-9 is the APC I believe, while the EE-11 sports a 90mm autocannon). Both are Brasilian designed and manufactured. They see a lot of service in Africa and the mid-east as well. Jorge and I figure that the same unit's great-grandchild in OGRE would consist of two platoons, each with two GEVs, two LGEVs, one MSL GEV (however they're eventually defined) and a further two plattons with a GEV-PC and three points of INF each. We've been discussing a GEV-SC (GEV Scout) unit down here. It's basically a GEV-PC which has the capacity to carry one INF and a drone robot (again, however those are eventually defined). The vehicle would cost as much as a normal GEV-PC, but the drone would come free, making up for the fact that the GEV-SC can only carry two items. If we use this unit, then the above OB becomes three identical armored platoons each with a GEV-SC added on. BTW - I couldn't help but notice that once again, people are talking about where to find sci-fi minis for OGRE. Again, I'd like to plug Geo Hex/Capricorn Space/Ground Zero Games in Portland Oregon as an excellent source for all your sci-fi miniatures needs. They sell a line of futuristic tanks, infantry, artillery, resin buildings and drop ships (even wet navy craft) that is really quite nice - much better than Ral's B-tech stuff, IMHO. I find most of Ral's B-tech vehicles to be clunky looking instead of sleek, and I only use their Savanna Master hovers and Infantry in my miniatures set. Some of you may object to using Geo Hex tanks for OGRE as their hover vehicles are modelled along more traditional "tank with a turret" lines than the classic GEV we all know and love. I've found that the beasties' style grew on me, after awhile. In any case, you can use their stuff as Indians, Brazilians, Chinese or what have you. Next time you're at a con, check Geo Hex's minis out. You may find you like them. I would really like to hear more/other ideas people have about campaign rules. Anybody? Yers in Jeeeeeeezis, Thad Blanchette ------------------------------ Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1997, by Steve Jackson Games.