============ OGRE/GEV list, Nov 19th (Last: Nov 17th) ============= ===== Looking for PBeM players From: Chris Camfield ===== Mixed ratios. From: Chris Camfield ===== Missile Tanks on the defense From: "Todd A. Zircher" ===== GEV/MSL Defense Rebuttal From: "Andrew Walters" ------------------------------ From: Chris Camfield Subject: Looking for PBeM players I am looking for 2 more players for a 4-player game of Ceasefire Collapse using the following setup: Advanced forces Ogre purchasing rules - each side has a Mk III, 12 armour, and 30 infantry. Each side will be split between two players - one will control the MK III, and the other will control the conventional forces. Communication will be limited - a maximum of one or two short messages each turn. (I'll figure out a hard limit.) To keep an air of mystery about things, all comm will be routed through me and then to the partner player. You won't know who you're playing with! Similar to Garth's suggestion on the Ogre Message Boards, comm will be subject to a die roll: 1-3 gets through fine, 4-5 jammed and doesn't get through, 6 gets through but message is intercepted. Given the communication rules, I would forsee the game running at a rate of about one complete turn a week. If you're interested, please reply! Chris Chris Camfield - ccamfield@cyberus.ca Big Rude Jake Fan Club President Visit the Big Rude Page at "http://www.bigrudejake.com"! "As the mob thickens, the mystery unfolds..." (BRJ, "Blue Pariah") ------------------------------ From: Chris Camfield Subject: Mixed ratios. Missile tanks are a little short-changed as well as secondaries. A 3 attack strength isn't really worth 1.5x a 2, because so many units have even-numbered defence values. One ugly idea would be to double the resolution of the CRT to d12, and add a 3:2 column halfway between 1:1 and 2:1. One could also add a 2:3 or 3:4 column. Or on 3:2 odds, give an additional attack at 1:2 (if the 1:1 misses, or in any case). Chris Chris Camfield - ccamfield@cyberus.ca Big Rude Jake Fan Club President Visit the Big Rude Page at "http://www.bigrudejake.com"! "As the mob thickens, the mystery unfolds..." (BRJ, "Blue Pariah") ------------------------------ From: "Todd A. Zircher" Subject: Missile Tanks on the defense Impressive. I'll have to save this and give it a whirl the next time I play. Generally, I've always written off missile tanks as a viable unit. Todd "who's a big fan of the GEV wolf pack" Zircher ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: GEV/MSL Defense Rebuttal The GEV/MSL defense seems sound, but I think an intelligent Ogre could easily get at least a marginal victory against this defense. The analysis is good, particularly the consideration of effective defense strength, but I think the minor differences accumulate. Looking at this line as the Ogre, however, I'd see that 60% of the armor firepower is in the MSLs, they're a ways back and they're slow, which means they won't get that many shots at me, if I don't lose M3. Six Ogre missles means 5 dead GEVs (ignoring the D), which means that only four GEVs ever get to shoot at me. If they can all reach me, I lose 2.6 tread units there, then I pursue and the MBs take out two more. If I ignore the GEVs from here on (to keep up my speed), they'll keep taking 1.3 tread unit= s/ turn, so including the 2.6 from turn 1 I'll still have M3 with 5 tread units left when I hit the MSLs. Assuming five MSLs have gotten between me and the CP, they can arrange to have the first shot and they'll take me to M2 that turn, assuming GEVs have left the MBs alone and focused on treads. This means I still have a move/attack range of five, so I'm taking out MSLs (X or D) at the rate of 2/turn, and I'm only two turns away from having the CP in secondary range, assuming its on the back row, and it better be. If the GEVs try to take out the MBs they can do it in four turns; 4 GEVs, attack strength 2 for a total of 8 against D4 =3D 2-1 =3D> 50% chance of X, so four attacks , which means I get 4 x 1.3 or 5 extra tread units when I hit the line of MSLs, which means I get a turn of M3 after I hit them, which means all six secondaries get a 1-1 against the MSLs, which means the defense just lost two more, plus two more get disabled, which means they'll fall behind and will be denied shots at me until I'm on my way back. Assuming Infantry can manuever to make up for lost MSLs, I'm taking thirty strength points ony my treads each turn for those last four turns, meaning I'm losing ten treads/turn. I've got about forty, so after two turns I'm at M1, but I'm within secondary range of the back row and no one's fired at my weapons yet, so the CP is gone, marginal victory is achieved. At this point with the Ogre doing M1 even the infantry is able to get the shots they want, so treads are ignored and the weaponry is stripped in four turns (30+ attack strength points =3D 3-1 on three secondaries/turn =3D 1.5 2Bs/turn destroyed). The Ogre gets to ram infantry each turn, but gets progressively less shots at the armor as its weapons go, until finally the Ogre players starts wishing the self-destruct rule were included in original Ogre. He's thirteen hexes away from safety when he goes to M0, then armor sits back and picks off the AP weapons All this assumes that the Ogre player is not able to make the craters and rubble work to his benefit at all. I find M2 means a much greater chance of coming around a crater to find yourselves five hexes away from your quarry, and every attack you don't make hurts. I'd be happy to take someone on as the Ogre if someone thinks they can make this defense work. If I had time I would argue that its the HVY that's the king of OGRE defense. The defense strength being only one point higher means that its 50% more costly (in terms of opportunity cost) to get the higher odds on it, and the higher attack gives it a one to one on main batteries. But most importanly by far, the HVYs M3 means that it can keep up with and keep shooting at the Ogre even at M3, and those starting behind the craters can be in firing range sooner. The Ogre map is really, really short when you're defense, and time is the most critical element if you want to deny the Ogre a marginal victory. HVYs are also less attractive to ram. Once the MBs are gone, a HVY is the Ogre's six is just as immortal at Ogre M3 as a MSL is at Ogre M2. That was really fun to write. Andrew ----- [Ano, why should the GEVs offer the OGRE a first strike with missiles? As you notice, the GEVs start nine hexes from the south border, so are missile proof on at least the first turn. Now let us assume that the OGRE ventures no further than two hexes onto the map in it's first move, so as to avoid giving the GEVs the first shot right away. (Look, I haven't even had a turn and I already started slowing it down!) On my turn the GEVs hop to an arc to the north of the OGRE at a radius of nine hexes (Just out of missile range) except for the GEV due north of the beast which is at eight hexes. The OGRE has three choices: Charge forwards three hexes, use one missile and get jumped by the other nine GEVs. Walk two hexes north and give that one GEV a first strike with the rest forming the same formation. (One GEV will be at range-5, another three hexes directly behind it and the rest in the nine-radius arc.) Or the OGRE can craw one hex to the north (or give ground, which is even better), in which case the GEVs make the same formation again and again. The end formation (against a crawling OGRE) has the infantry at range-3, the Missile Tanks at range-6 and one GEV at Range-8 and the rest at range-9. At which point I'd advise backing off the south edge, slowly. So, all but one of the GEVs get the first strike against the OGRE. (targeting Mains then Treads only!) A strange result, given that the beast has an edge of two hexes of strike range against them. This margin wipes out the Mains, tipping the game. I wouldn't take an all Missile Tank defense, but I've had too many occasions when all the range-2 hexes were taken to go back to all-GEV. (If the counter mix will allow, I'd take 14 GEVs, 6 MisTnk, 30 single squad Inf. (Or better yet 40 LtTnk and 30 single squads! Secondary Batts just suck against light tanks ;-)) -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1997, by Steve Jackson Games.