============ OGRE/GEV list, Sep 14th (Last: Sep 12th) ============= ===== Archaic Sub Units From: sdorr@ix.netcom.com (Scott David Orr) From: jimaclem@juno.com From: VIPER394@aol.com From: "Todd A. Zircher" ===== Crewing requirements. From: sdorr@ix.netcom.com (Scott David Orr) From: "Todd A. Zircher" From: Steve Jackson ===== Militia in GEV. From: hcobb@io.com ------------------------------ From: sdorr@ix.netcom.com (Scott David Orr) Subject: Archaic Sub Units >From: jimaclem@juno.com >SSBN (Archaic Unit) >Attack: 4 (torpedoes) Range: 6 (only against ships, and other >Each boomer has had each SLBM replaced with four (4) cruise missiles. >Each is assumed to have had 20 missile tubes, giveing the new version >eighty (80) !!! cruise missiles. BTW, I don't think I'm familiar with a class of SSBN that carries 20 missiles exactly. It can vary anywhere from 2 (an experimental Chinese unit) to 24, though, with most units having at least 12 (and only the older ones at the bottom of that range). >For stability, though, the sub can only launch eight >(8) CM's per turn (two tubes worth). Needless to say, this unit is going >to be around only to launch massive attacks on long range targets. These >may carry up to four SLOM's (Sub Launched Ogre Missiles). These are the >same as the standard Ogre missile, just launched via the sub's torpedoe >tubes. It can launch up to four at a time, though if there are multiple >targets, they must all be within two hexes (four inches) of each other, >due to the older targetting systems. These targets may be on or under >sea, or on land. The sub may not use it's torpedoe attack in the same >turn it launches SLOM's. You could put this in the missile tubes, too. >The SSN is an attack submarine, similar to the Los Angeles, 688 class >attack boats. These are optimized to kill surface ships, and especially >subs. They lack the big missile capacity of the SSBN's, but are still >dangerous to surface, sub-surface, and land targets. > >SSN (Archaic Unit) > >Attack: 6 (torpedoes) Range: 6 (only against ships, and other >subs) I don't understand why the torpedoes from an SSN would be any more effective than the torpedoes from an SSBN. >SS (Archaic Unit) > >Attack: 3 (torpedoes) Range: 6 (only against ships, and other >subs) Again, why would the attack rating be lower than for the SSN? >Defense: 1 (early units w/o BPC armor) > 2 (units with BPC added) >Move: 3 (surfaced) > 1 (submerged) While I agree these things should be slower than nucler boats underwater, most of them will be faster underwater than surfaced (because they aren't designed to operate on the surface--they snorkel for power, but that's as close as they get). >Give me some input on these. I'm working on rules for ocean movement and >combat, hope to have those posted soon, along with surface and sub units >built during the Ogre era. Well, archaic subs have one huge problem in the Ogre universe: nuclear weapons. A nuke set off underwater generates a nasty pressure wave that should destroy every sub within a mile or so by collapsing their hulls; I think non-BPC subs would be even more vulnerable than militia, who at least have a chance to hide. Realistically, any attack against a sub will be an auto-kill against all subs in that hex (how big are hexes again?). But not only do such weapons hurt the sub, they also screw up sonar--for some time after you set one off sonar is essentially useless if the sound in question has to go through that area. That means the sub might be okay in a surprise attack, but once the nukes start flying it's going to have problems seeing. Scott Orr ----- [Most attacks in the OGREverse are sensor limited. That's why the more poweful ones tend to be self-guiding missiles rather than just a shower of nuclear shells. So a sub's torpedo attack value could be taken as a measure of its sensors. -HJC] ----- From: jimaclem@juno.com Subject: Archaic Sub Units > [One gets the impression from the load on the missile crawler and >Ogres that the cruise missiles and ogre missiles are very large. > > My take is that a SSBN could carry one Cruise Missile or Ogre >Missile >per SLBM replaced and launch one missile per turn, but without having >to >surface. (It would need to combine the Ogre Missile attack with some >other >unit's attack in that case.) -HJC] > OK, I'll buy the one SLOM / CM per tube idea, after I looked at the Minis rule book photos again. I still think that at least four could be launched per turn though. The SLOM's on the SSN and SS are in external launchers, added for just that purpost, so then their launch wont affect the use of the torpedoe attack. I should have the OGRE era units ready to post by next week, they include sub cruisers, frigates and transports, much harder to find than their surface counterparts (though these are still in use) Thanks Jim C. Duck and cover! ----- From: VIPER394@aol.com Subject: Archaic Sub Units >jimaclem@juno.com you write > SSBN (Archaic Unit) >Attack: 4 (torpedoes) Range: 6 (only against ships, and other >subs) does this meen that torpedoes can not be use against ogres clawing acrost the ocean or lake bottoms?? it seams to me it would be logical to that they could hit any nautical target ----- From: "Todd A. Zircher" Subject: Archaic Sub Units jimaclem@juno.com wrote: >> SS (Archaic Unit) > Attack: 3 (torpedoes) Range: 6 (only against ships, and other > subs) > Defense: 1 (early units w/o BPC armor) > 2 (units with BPC added) > Move: 3 (surfaced) > 1 (submerged) The SS unit is faster than the newer units on the surface? I admit that I know next to nothing about actual naval vessels. Or, is the a play balance issue? ------------------------------ From: sdorr@ix.netcom.com (Scott David Orr) Subject: Crewing requirements. >I find it hard to believe you'd put a lieutenant in an LGEV, when you'd have >a sergeant commanding a GEV or heavy tank. Heck, even in a lot of air >forces a lot of pilots are sergeants. Especially given the casualty rates >in the Ogre universe, using an officer to command an LGEV (assuming it has a >1-man crew) would be an unconsionable waste of an expensively trained soldier. > > [Ogre Minis, p53: "It is unusual for a fighting vehicle to be >commanded by anybody below the rank of lieutenant". > > Note that this means that half the officers in Mechanized Infantry >formations are vehicle commanders. That's...colorful, but it's not realistic. No army in the history of the world has ever organized itself that way. SJ is a great game designer, but I think it's advisable to take his advice on military organization with a grain of salt. Given that officers are usually college-educated, where exactly is this infinite suppy of officers coming from? Scott Orr ----- From: "Todd A. Zircher" Subject: Crewing requirements. > [Ogre Minis, p53: "It is unusual for a fighting vehicle to be > commanded by anybody below the rank of lieutenant". That's consistant with any unit that fields nuclear weapons. > I hear the rumble of distant treads no later than 2015, but the > right place to talk about it is: http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/board/ > > But, if the first one is completed in 2006, I know what to call > this fearless monster. -HJC] V'ger? [ducking and grinning] Todd A. Zircher "There is no God." - Psalm 14:1a* * Your mileage may vary. Void where prohibited. Subject to local and state sales tax. Not intended for human consumption. ----- From: Steve Jackson Subject: Crewing requirements. We have already established that mobile units have enough onboard computing power than they can function, after a fashion, with no crew. That's why disabled units get a half-strength attack in overruns. I think there would be a lot of situations in which performance would not significantly degrade - certainly not enough to change a highly granular Ogre stat - if a 3-man crew dropped to 2. Steve Jackson - yes, of SJ Games - yes, we won the Secret Service case Learn Web or die - http://www.sjgames.com/ - dinosaurs, Lego, Kahlua! The heck with PGP keys; finger for Geek Code. Fnord. ------------------------------ Subject: Militia in GEV. From: hcobb@io.com OK, here's my current take on translating Militia Units from OGRE Minis back into the GEV system. Militia are unprotected infantry that carry infantry style weapons. Militia come in single-squad counters, these counters are marked differently on each side to show their two modes: Running Militia: Attack 1/1, Defense 1, Move 1 Hiding Militia: Attack 1/1, Defense 1, Move 0 Militia movement: Each turn each Running Militia squad may remain in Running mode in its current hex or flip to Hiding mode in its current hex or an adjacent non-water hex. (They get no road bonus) Hiding Militia can remain hiding where they are or flip over into Running mode in their current hex. (Note: Militia may move at most one hex every other turn unless transported.) Hiding Militia may also be carried around on Light or Heavy Tanks under the same terms as regular infantry squads. Militia have their own attacks doubled in overruns, just like normal infantry, but all attacks against them in overruns are also doubled. (So an Infantry squad or OGRE AP gun attacks with strength four against Militia in overruns). All normal attacks (not overrun) against a hex with a Militia squad have full, not spillover effect against each Militia squad separately. Running Militia get no defensive benefit from terrain (They are gunned down as they run for cover), but Hiding Militia get the same terrain benefit as normal infantry. (On a single-squad basis). Example: One Running and two Hiding Militia squads in a city hex are attacked by a Light Tank. The tank gets a 2-1 against the running squad (killing it on a 2-6) and a 1-2 against each of the Hiding squads (Killing each on a 5-6). In each case, I have tried to make these units even more pathetic than the Militia in OGRE Minis, so they shouldn't be worth more than those units, right? The cost? Each Militia squad costs the same as one-sixth of an Infantry squad. -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1997, by Steve Jackson Games.