============ OGRE/GEV list, Sep 21st (Last: Sep 19th) ============= ===== Captured Vehicles From: Terry Hewitt ===== Crewing requirements. From: Scott Carter From: "Garth L. Getgen" From: fish ===== Upcoming GEV event From: Chris Camfield ===== Archaic Sub Units From: sdorr@ix.netcom.com (Scott David Orr) From: "Andrew Walters" ===== Ogre Submarines, v 1.1 From: jimaclem@juno.com ------------------------------ From: Terry Hewitt Subject: Captured Vehicles Henry: I'd like to throw out a question on crewing abandoned units - can an ENEMY armor unit be "appropriated"? My guess is that it is probably not possible. Units are programmed to defend themselves and it is unlikely that it would let enemy units near. Even if they could get near, there are probably security codes designed to deny unauthorized access. Those security measures would take time to crack and in the meantime the intruders would be sitting ducks! Terry ----- [See "Captured Vehicles" on page 55 of Ogre Minis. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Scott Carter Subject: Crewing requirements. > While we're at it, how many vehicles per counter, how many men per point of > infantry or militia, and how many infantry squads can ride on a Mark V? The story in the old OGRE book has a heavy crew at three. I'ld put a GEV at two or three. The bok has most of the systems being autonomous as to work even when the crew is incapacitated, which would explain the defense even when it is disabled. One vehicle/ counter, 6 men /squad, and as many as have the balls to get that close to it. Roy Kubicek ----- From: "Garth L. Getgen" Subject: Crewing requirements. Well, my time attached to the Army was in support of Infantry (Light Infantry at that), so I don't claim to know much about tanks. However, I know that our M1A1 has four crewmen: TC, driver, loader, and gunner. Some Russian tanks, I believe, has an automated loading system, so they can get away with three people. I think there were some smaller tanks in the 50's and early 60's that tried a early type of mechanical loader (which did not work well at all) and the TC doubled as the gunner. These were viewed as total failures by all that served on them. So, I think that the smallest crew for a OGRE-era tank would be three for a Light, four for a Heavy and five or six (more likely six) for a SuperHeavy. If nothing else, Andrew as a good point about the increased Electronic Warfare systems. As to the abandoned vehicles, I purposed a rule about that already where the crew could be killed yet the vehicle is combat worthy. There is an optional rule for a "tread kill" or "gun kill" that only partially takes out a tank ... why not a third for "crew kill"?? (I had purposed this as a type of Disable.) What I had suggested was that a FRIENDLY Infantry squad could jump on the crewless tank, spend a turn there (the open the hatch, de-suit one guy, and button up the tank), then the tank can be driven back to a CP for a replacement crew. It can NOT fire except half-strength (ala Disabled) during overruns and may not be the attacker for an overrun. Garth L. Getgen, SSgt USAF ----- From: fish Subject: Crewing requirements. > From: "Andrew Walters" > Since crew uniforms need to provide enough protection to bail out (never mind > that it probably never happens, it has to be possible or you have a morale > problem) they can probably survive the turn or two they'll need to fire up > the vehicle, but during that time they ought to be particularly vulnerable to > attack - the hatches are open, they can't move, one or more crewmen are > outside, ECM not online yet. Hmm. I don't think that any given crew would qualify for anything more than D0, but maybe that would be possible. At best, count them as militia certainly they're not wearing battlesuits inside those tanks, but they may be wearing militia-level body armour. And since much of an infantry squad's defence comes from ECM, which a crew wouldn't have... I'm not sure I agree with many of your conclusions, I still think armour crews will stay low, but that's my own opinion, and so liable to be really quite surprisingly wrong. > This certainly got me as a neophyte wargamer in the habit of burning up > counters for the sake of objectives, but that's my own problem. Heh, I have the same problem. > While we're at it, how many vehicles per counter, how many men per point of > infantry or militia, and how many infantry squads can ride on a Mark V? One vehicle per counter. Five or six men (call it six) per infantry squad, possibly the same for militia, maybe a little more (eight?), and I've always figured that one squad can ride on a tank per Size level above 3, with the LT being an exception -- so, SHVYs 2 (of course), MkIs 2, MkIIs 3, etc. As for sub/plane/helo/mecha rules... let's just say "no comment" and leave it at the polite level of conversation. Fish. ----- [Any lone human being on foot ought to be at least Defense one-half. (Militia have guns to shoot down missiles and so get D1) The D0 trucks and command posts have a large area to target, people can be assumed to duck and cover at least. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Chris Camfield Subject: Upcoming GEV event Hi all, I decided that since I have no idea how many people might be interested in playing GEV in my area, to start small. This is quite a long time away, but just in case anyone is interested, I'm going to be running a 4-player GEV game based on Garth G's suggestions for a limited communication game between Ogre and conventional forces. So there'll be two players per side, and they have to pass notes to each other which may not arrive or be picked up by the enemy. I'll either use the point totals for advanced Ceasefire Collapse (for a small game) with Ogres, so each side has an Mk III, 12 AU, and 30 squads of infantry OR A somewhat late factory-states era meeting engagement, played on 2 or 4 maps. (I have Shockwave and the expansion set.) Each side will have an Ogre, which will nominally be a Mk V (or VI...), but damaged to a certain degree, slightly different for each side. So one might have more missiles, or main batteries, remaining. I'm envisioning it's quite a few years later than 2085 for this battle, and the Ogres are not getting their proper maintenance. Accordingly, their communication gear and the cyberbrain portion which handles cooperative efforts are damaged, and may cause malfunction if communication is going on. :-) What do you think? Any suggestions for the latter battle? In a meeting engagement, one can't justify an in-place CP, but there could be a mobile one, or a convoy of trucks to get off a side map edge. Chris -- Chris Camfield - ccamfield@cyberus.ca Big Rude Jake Fan Club President Visit the Big Rude Page at "http://www.cyberus.ca/~ccamfield/brj"! "As the mob thickens, the mystery unfolds..." (BRJ, "Blue Pariah") ------------------------------ From: sdorr@ix.netcom.com (Scott David Orr) Subject: Archaic Sub Units >From: jimaclem@JUNO.COM >>>SSN (Archaic Unit) >>> >>>Attack: 6 (torpedoes) Range: 6 (only against ships, and other >>>subs) >> >>I don't understand why the torpedoes from an SSN would be any more >>effective than the torpedoes from an SSBN. > >I assumed this just because the SSN is a Hunter Killer unit, unlike the >SSBN, which seems to be intended to mimic a hole in the water. USN boomer crews would be quite happy to inform you that they have "the best torpedomen in the fleet." Yes, the SSBN is designed to hide, and its slow speed limits it as an offensive weapon, but torpedoes and fire-control technology are the same as those found on SSN's. When you think about it, this makes sense, since they have to defend themselves from SSN's. Of course, the fact that SSN's would have been conduction combat operations for some time might give them better cre experience, and that might translate into a better combat rating. >>>SS (Archaic Unit) >>> >>>Attack: 3 (torpedoes) Range: 6 (only against ships, and other >>>subs) >> >>Again, why would the attack rating be lower than for the SSN? >> > >These are simply not as capable as the SSN's. In some situations, such as shallow water, they're arguably more capable. Again, like the SSBN"s, they tend to be slower, but that doesn't affect the torpedoes. The real differences in capabilities are due to the technology carried, not to something inherent in using diesel-electric propulsion rather than nuclear. And while we in the U.S. are accumstomed to hearing about the lower-tech Soviet patrol subs, some of the ones in the West are extremely high-tech--for example, the Germans were using swim-out torpedo tubes when the "Seawolf" class was still on the drawing board. These subs are also quieter--potentially (given the right application of technology) even quieter than an SSBN--but I don't know how you'd represent that in the game. >>>Defense: 1 (early units w/o BPC armor) >>> 2 (units with BPC added) >>>Move: 3 (surfaced) >>> 1 (submerged) >> >>While I agree these things should be slower than nucler boats >>underwater, most of them will be faster underwater than surfaced (because they >>aren't designed to operate on the surface--they snorkel for power, but that's >>as close as they get). > >Good point, I was thinking of the older versions of diesel-electrics, >which won't be a factor in any future wars. Change the moves to be the >same as the SSN, but these will only be found in shallow coastal waters, >being range limited. I'd give them a lower move than SSN's have--for one thing, they can't run at full power all the time like an SSN can (more or less), because they have to conserve battery power. But though the need to conserve power may not be a big deal in a tactical battle, they also have lower top speeds. BTW, many of the newer SS's have "Air-independent Propulsion" (AIP), which allows them to generate (I can't remember whether it can go direct to the engines, or just to the batteries) without snorkeling. >>Well, archaic subs have one huge problem in the Ogre universe: >>nuclear weapons. A nuke set off underwater generates a nasty pressure >>wave that should destroy every sub within a mile or so by collapsing >>their hulls; I think non-BPC subs would be even more vulnerable than >>militia, who at least have a chance to hide. Realistically, any attack >>against a sub will be an auto-kill against all subs in that hex (how big >>are hexes again?). >> >>But not only do such weapons hurt the sub, they also screw up >>sonar--for some time after you set one off sonar is essentially useless >>if the sound in question has to go through that area. That means the sub >>might be okay in a surprise attack, but once the nukes start flying it's >>going to have problems seeing. > >All reasonable points, in fact my sea combat rules include a nuke DC, >which will kill every sub in a hex. Problem is, you have to find the >right hex and live long enough to get close to it! True enough. :) I think Ogre hexes are pretty big anyway, so it could work out. Scott Orr ----- From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Archaic Sub Units >>I don't understand why the torpedoes from an SSN would be any more effective >>than the torpedoes from an SSBN. >I assumed this just because the SSN is a Hunter Killer unit, unlike the >SSBN, which seems to be intended to mimic a hole in the water. Torpedoes today are guided by the firing sub for the first several miles, so who fires it *could* make a difference. I get the impression that weapons in the Ogre universe have to be fire-and-forget, but a sub with better sensors could launch the torpedo under more favorable circumstances. Regarding SS being less capable than SSN, having a limited range and so forth, remember: 1) US diesel electric subs *fifty five years* ago patrolled the coast of Japan, And German diesel electric subs before that patrolled the mid-Atlantic and the US East coast. *Endurance* is far less for a diesel-electric, but range is not a problem. 2) SS are quieter than SSN, as batteries are quiter than all the cooling pumps, etc., required to keep the SSN operating. One of the big naval concerns right now are ex-soviet diesel-electrics being sold to emerging nations. 3) Attack strenght is going to be based on size of warhead and probability of getting it there, propulsion system is independent. Get a game or a book with stats on US and former-soviet subs and you'll see that they have some *really* *big* torpedo tubes that fire torpedoes with *really* *big* warheads. Regarding the nuclear depth charge issue: how big (kiloton yeild) are we supposing HVYs are firing at Ogres? We need someone who knows what they're doing to do the math, but I suspect a handful of those shells (reworked to explode a distance underwater) could kill any sub in a hex, possibly surrounding hexes. This makes it economical to cover a large area with enough shock waves to guarantee sub destruction, though of course whoever is providing that fire needs to be able to survive whateveer the sub (and his friends) can dish out. I know that the subs are supposed to have BPC on them, but its not a given that a material that will enable a tank to survive powerful nearby explosions will enable a sub to withstand greater overpressure or shock waves, different material properties are involved. Additionally, the range of armor units is largely dependent on their sensors, and how carefully do you have to aim to hit the ocean? So perhaps an armor unit can forgo its normal attack and shell one or more hexes up to double its normal range, and all subs in those hexes are destroyed. Bottom line, subs are strategic weapons, and will be difficult to fit into a tactical game. Even if we do bring them up to par with the armor units in terms of combat ability, they still cost a couple of orders of magnitude more, both in money and crew size. Subs aren't going anywhere, but their role will change. In any case I believe we can assume that in the world of Ogre there is no surviving coastal sealife. ----- [Sure there is. It tends to glow at night though, so I wouldn't suggest any clam digs. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: jimaclem@juno.com Subject: Ogre Submarines, v 1.1 Okay, here is my next pass at submarines in Ogre. Hope you like them. If you don't I'll email you a Kraken with next message :) Ogre Subs (v 1.1) Archaic Units The SSBN is a boomer, or ballistic missile submarine. With the advent of laser defences, their missiles became obsolete, but their use as cruise missile launch platforms was not unnoticed. With the big missiles removed, and some modifications to the launch tubes, they became the biggest cruise missile carriers around! SSBN (Archaic Unit) Attack: 4 (torpedoes) Range: 6 (only against ships, other subs, and swimming Ogres) Defense: 1 (early units w/o BPC armor) 2 (units with BPC added) Move: 2 (surfaced) 3 (submerged) VP: 12 (non BPC) 15 (BPC) (these values DO NOT INCLUDE THE CRUISE MISSILES!) Each boomer can have each SLBM replaced with one (1) cruise missile or SLOM (sub-launched Ogre missile). For stability, the sub can only launch four (4) CM's and/or SLOM's per turn. Needless to say, this unit is going to be around only to launch massive attacks on long range targets. If there are multiple targets, SLOM's may be used only if all of them are within two hexes (four inches) of each other, due to the older targetting systems. These targets may be on or under sea, or on land. The SSN is an attack submarine, similar to the Los Angeles, 688 class attack boats. These are optimized to kill surface ships, and subs. They lack the big missile capacity of the SSBN's, but are still dangerous to surface, sub-surface, and land targets. SSN (Archaic Unit) Attack: 6 (torpedoes) Range: 6 (only against ships, and other subs) Defense: 1 (early units w/o BPC armor) 2 (units with BPC added) Move: 2 (surfaced) 4 (submerged) VP: 15 (non BPC) 18 (BPC) The SSN can carry up to six (6) SLOM's/CM's, described above (these are carried in external launchers). These are launched with the same restrictions as for SSBN's. The SS is a diesel-electric sub, found in coastal waters for defense purposes. It seems safe to assume that some of these would see service with newer weapons. SS (Archaic Unit) Attack: 3 (torpedoes) Range: 6 (only against ships, and other subs) Defense: 0 (early units w/o BPC armor) 1 (units with BPC added) Move: 1 (surfaced) 2 (submerged) VP: 6 (non BPC) 9 (BPC) The SS can also carry SLOM's/CM's, up to two, with the same launch restrictions as above. These will never be found more than 100 hexes (150 km) from a coast line. Ogre Era Subs: In the Ogre era, subs were used to fill roles usually carried by surface ships in prior times. This is mainly due to the fact that subs are much harder to find, even more so in the jammed environment of Ogre. Their armor was also heavier since they did not need to worry about hauling over the terrain like their land based cousins. Sub-Cruiser: The work-horse of the sub units, the cruiser can attack sea and land units, as well as land small units for raids and the like. Attack: 6 (torpedoes) Range: 6 6 SLOM's (may launch any or all at any targets) Defense: 3 Move: 1 (surface) 3 (submerged) Marine Special Ops unit: 12 marine squads 3 marine engineer squads 5 S-GEV-PC 5 S-LGEV The S-GEV-PC and S-LGEV are special ops units, capable of operating for very short periods underwater, mainly to allow them to be launched while their carrier is submerged. They are just like their land based cousins, except they can move at a speed of 1 at a shallow depth after they are launched. They can also do this when being picked up. Otherwise they move just the land types. Sub-Frigate: These carry the same armament as the sub-cruiser, but don't have quite the survivability, and also lack the marine ops unit. Attack: 6 (torpedoes) Range: 6 6 SLOM's (may launch any or all at any targets) Defense: 2 Move: 1 (surface) 3 (submerged) Sub-Transport: These were about three times the size of the sub-cruisers, and used to carry materials and troops. They lack armament, requiring escorts, but can launch large attacks against land targets. They were even large enough to carry some Ogres. Attack: 0 Defense: 3 Move: 1 (surface) 2 (submerged) May carry up to 150 squads of infantry, or other units at the rates below. LGEV, GEV, GEV-PC, S-LGEV, S-GEV-PC = 6 squads MK I Ogre = 25 squads MK II Ogre = 50 squads MK III Ogre = 100 squads The non sub GEVs must be launched while the transport is surfaced, a risky act at best. Okay, here is what I'm sure of you've been wondering about. The Sub Ogre! Intended to put Ogre power into the sea, and to counter the development of the Nihon Cyberships, the Kraken was the first Combine Ogre submersible. The size of a Sub-Cruiser, but without the marine unit, and crew, and all the life support equipment required allowed designers to use an obscene amount of BPC in them, even compared to land based Ogres. This allowed them to survive nuclear depth charge attacks, though the use of cruise missiles will still kill them. They are as fast as any other sub unit, and mount both sea and land attack weapons. It was more than once that Pan-European forces found themselves under attack from the sea, when a Kraken surfaced off-shore and began hammering them. To help with role, they carried almost exclusively long range land attack weapons. Kraken class CSS (Continental Siege Submersible) six (6) SLOM's, in external launchers, same stats as Ogre missiles two (2) N-HWTZR (naval howitzers, A: 6, R: 8, D: 2) eight (8) N-AP (same as standard AP, except can be used against marine units, surfaced or submerged) four (4) torpedo tubes: A: 1, R: 6, D: 2, only against sea targets Movement is by hydro-thrusters. These are buried deep within the hull, so only the control nozzles are really accessible to weapons. Damage to these reduces the Kraken's ability to maneuver, and interferes with the flow required to propel the ship. The Kraken has a movement of 3, and this is reduced by one for every 10 points of thruster damage, thus: move starts at 3 00000 00000 move drops to 2 00000 00000 move drops to 1 00000 00000 move drops to 0 Other cousins of the Kraken will be forth-coming. The point values on these is only a guess at this point, so let me know what you think. Jim C. Ogre: rumble, rumble, BOOM, BOOM Kraken: gurgle, gurgle, BOOM, BOOM ----- [How do you target an Ogre missile from under the waves at a land target? Do you have a neutrino range finder? -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1997, by Steve Jackson Games.